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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Celebrity Deathmatch: 22 Pan vs. 24 Pan new [Re: Mike B]
      #5846398 - 05/07/13 07:13 PM

I gotta stop going by the scope shop to say hello on the way home from work....I just said hello to a 22Pan in Mint condition with box, bags, and paperwork, and the paperwork has Al's autograph! Guess now I'll have to go do my own deathmatch....except in mine, noone dies or gets sold away.....yea, I'm Randy, and I'm an eyepiece junky (not sure I want to be cured though).

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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Celebrity Deathmatch: 22 Pan vs. 24 Pan new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5846427 - 05/07/13 07:25 PM

Quote:


I gotta stop going by the scope shop to say hello on the way home from work..






You struck my funny bone...

Jon


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Mike B
Starstruck
*****

Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: Celebrity Deathmatch: 22 Pan vs. 24 Pan new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5846460 - 05/07/13 07:45 PM

Quote:

I just said hello to a 22Pan in Mint condition...




Yeah, but what didya say "goodbye" to?

...aside from rational thot, anyway...


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helpwanted
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 07/04/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: Celebrity Deathmatch: 22 Pan vs. 24 Pan new [Re: Mike B]
      #5846687 - 05/07/13 09:38 PM

I have had both, kept the 24. The 22 just didn't do it for me, I felt the view was soft.

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Blake Andrews
sage
*****

Reged: 07/31/08

Loc: Iowa
Re: Celebrity Deathmatch: 22 Pan vs. 24 Pan new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5846921 - 05/07/13 11:53 PM

Quote:

The 22mm Panoptic is not very popular, really. Having sold approximately 80 eyepieces in the last year or so, I have a feel for where the market is based on how quickly eyepieces sell and how many nibbles I get. I've listed and relisted a 22mm Panoptic multiple times, even offering various trade options, with just a nibble or two, but no serious buyers. So whatever the sentiment about this out-of-print eyepiece, once you have it, you'll likely be stuck with it for quite a long while, so be sure that you really love it before taking the plunge.





Hi Jim,

While I agree it takes a little more effort to buy/sell a 22Pan, for me it didn't take much more. Through a couple of trades and deals, I ended up with two of the buggers. I kept one, and took the other to our local astronomy club's public night. Long story short, I passed it around and it sold itself that night. The new owner is still very happy a year later. I sold it for $160 - the same price I figured I had into it.

Cheers!
Blake


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Jeff Morgan
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 09/28/03

Loc: Prescott, AZ
Re: Celebrity Deathmatch: 22 Pan vs. 24 Pan new [Re: Blake Andrews]
      #5846929 - 05/08/13 12:06 AM

There certainly are newer designs in the 20 mm class. Two Naglers and an Ethos come immediately to mind, and no doubt people's mindshare is there.

But perhaps one needs to look at it from the other side of the coin. Tele Vue certainly sold boat loads of 22 Pans, especially considering the 22 was the launch focal length of the Panoptic line.

With thousands of these out there, how often do they come up for sale?

The answer of course is not very often. It would seem there are many very satisfied owners out there.


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Scanning4Comets
Markus
*****

Reged: 12/26/04

Re: Celebrity Deathmatch: 22 Pan vs. 24 Pan new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5846957 - 05/08/13 12:28 AM

In the central area, the 22mm Pan is super sharp, no doubt. Eye relief and immersiveness is awesome as well. I have never dogged this eyepiece in a sense that rendered it "useless".

In fact when I did my comparison a while back, (which is on here), I preferred the 22mm Pan over the 24mm Pan for comfort and immersiveness, and it barlows excellently. However, over time the edge softness kept niggling at me and biting my heels so I let it go. I prefer not to see "blobs" that appear to be DSO's near the edges when I am scanning for an object.

I then discovered the 22mm Vixen LVW and stars are super sharp all over the field. Stars are still pin points right next to the field stop in fact. I don't know what they did when they designed this eyepiece, but they sure did something right to correct coma as seen from the mirror.

This is WHY I still have it and the 22mm pan is gone. This is WHY Jim Barnett has an ad still looking for one to trade for his 22mm Pan. It is truly an EPIC EYEPIECE indeed. Yes, a TV eyepiece gets bested by an LVW. Does this anger some TV users? Youbetcha. I have no idea why.

http://www.astromart.com/classifieds/details.asp?classified_id=794849

Hmmmmm, no takers. I wonder why?

Cheers,


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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)
*****

Reged: 06/24/03

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Celebrity Deathmatch: 22 Pan vs. 24 Pan new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5847041 - 05/08/13 02:14 AM

Markus,
1) the LVW doesn't correct coma. I've used them in a lot of different newts and they do reveal coma.
2) At f/4.7 the star images at the edge of a 30mm field stop are nearly 15X as large as they are at the center. That should make coma quite visible unless the magnification is ultra-low, which it isn't in your scope.
3) So if the coma isn't visible at the edge of the field, there is another reason for it other than #1 or #2--some reason you're not seeing it.
I have some ideas about that, related to where, perhaps, you observe.
I suspect it's not very dark.


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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Celebrity Deathmatch: 22 Pan vs. 24 Pan new [Re: Mike B]
      #5847276 - 05/08/13 08:08 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I just said hello to a 22Pan in Mint condition...




Yeah, but what didya say "goodbye" to?

...aside from rational thot, anyway...





Yea, I know, out $220, but It's all good....


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Celebrity Deathmatch: 22 Pan vs. 24 Pan new [Re: Starman1]
      #5847288 - 05/08/13 08:19 AM

Quote:

I suspect it's not very dark.




I think the key to seeing off-axis aberrations clearly is to critically observe relatively bright stars off-axis. Often off-axis sharpness is evaluated by the quality of a star field which can be overly optimistic, particular if there is a significant amount of light pollution.

Using a relatively bright star, probably magnitude 2-4, allows one to clearly see any aberrations even when there is substantial light pollution.

I did spend some time last night with my 22mm Panoptic, urban skies.. I was using my NP-101 which is a tough customer because it's relatively fast at F/5.4 but it has essentially no aberrations of it's own so what you see are issues with the eyepiece. This combination provides about 25x with a 4mm exit pupil.

Viewing star fields and the M-35, I could see no edge aberrations. So, with Porrima at magnitude 2.7 and high in the sky, I spent some time observing Porrima as a widefield test star. At the edge of the field, the star itself could be seen to be a point, clean and round but there was a slight aberration if I looked closely with the star right at the field stop. A poor performer would show the stars as astigmatic blurs that shifted by 90 degrees as one passed through focus, I saw none of that.

Next time I have a chance, I will give it a work out under dark skies in my 16 inch F/4.42 = F/5.07 with the Paracorr.

Jon


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Jeff Morgan
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 09/28/03

Loc: Prescott, AZ
Re: Celebrity Deathmatch: 22 Pan vs. 24 Pan new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5847392 - 05/08/13 09:36 AM

Quote:

In fact when I did my comparison a while back, (which is on here), I preferred the 22mm Pan over the 24mm Pan for comfort and immersiveness, and it barlows excellently. However, over time the edge softness kept niggling at me and biting my heels so I let it go. I prefer not to see "blobs" that appear to be DSO's near the edges when I am scanning for an object.




I'm not going to doubt your observations. Mine are somewhat different. The telescopes in question are a Newtonian of f/6, and three refractors. An f/12 achromat, and f/6 and f/8.5 apochromats.

In my eyepiece collection the 22 Pan sits between the 31 Nagler and 14 Delos (which replaced a 13 Ethos). Being the methodical person I am after locating an object in the 31 Nagler I virtually never skip an eyepiece as I ramp up the magnification to whatever a particular night allows.

Over the years of these line-ups, in normal use I have never felt any dramatic "fall-off" in performance from the 22 Pan despite the high-rent neighbors. Perhaps if I dedicated an hour to intense comparison I could but apparent field aside, the 22 Pan fit right in. Interestingly the 13 Ethos gave me very nearly the same true field (25 mm field stop vs. 22.3) but I never found reason to skip the 22 Pan.

Quote:

This is WHY I still have it and the 22mm pan is gone. This is WHY Jim Barnett has an ad still looking for one to trade for his 22mm Pan. It is truly an EPIC EYEPIECE indeed. Yes, a TV eyepiece gets bested by an LVW. Does this anger some TV users? Youbetcha. I have no idea why.

http://www.astromart.com/classifieds/details.asp?classified_id=794849

Hmmmmm, no takers. I wonder why?

Cheers,




Well, since you're inviting speculation ....

I would guess that of the three 22 LVW owners in North America you're the only one aware of the ad.


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Celebrity Deathmatch: 22 Pan vs. 24 Pan new [Re: Blake Andrews]
      #5847618 - 05/08/13 11:57 AM

Mine has become a club "loaner" eyepiece for new observers who don't have the scratch or commitment to make a big eyepiece investment yet. It's fine in that role. I think of it as an "improved" Erfle. And it's a large eyepiece. Very impressive to someone whose starter scope came with a couple of Plossls.

Regards,

Jim


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Scanning4Comets
Markus
*****

Reged: 12/26/04

Re: Celebrity Deathmatch: 22 Pan vs. 24 Pan new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5847639 - 05/08/13 12:08 PM

Quote:

Markus,
1) the LVW doesn't correct coma. I've used them in a lot of different newts and they do reveal coma.
2) At f/4.7 the star images at the edge of a 30mm field stop are nearly 15X as large as they are at the center. That should make coma quite visible unless the magnification is ultra-low, which it isn't in your scope.
3) So if the coma isn't visible at the edge of the field, there is another reason for it other than #1 or #2--some reason you're not seeing it.
I have some ideas about that, related to where, perhaps, you observe.
I suspect it's not very dark.

--------------------
Don Pensack




Eh?

Star images in my 22mm LVW are still pinpoints right to the edge. I see no coma which is all that matters. FYI, it is quite dark. You can try to rationalize all you want, but I KNOW what I am seeing. I am done arguing here. You don't see what I see, and nobody else does either. You can do all of the math you want here for eons and it won't change what I see.

This is all that matters.


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Celebrity Deathmatch: 22 Pan vs. 24 Pan new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5847772 - 05/08/13 01:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Markus,
1) the LVW doesn't correct coma. I've used them in a lot of different newts and they do reveal coma.
2) At f/4.7 the star images at the edge of a 30mm field stop are nearly 15X as large as they are at the center. That should make coma quite visible unless the magnification is ultra-low, which it isn't in your scope.
3) So if the coma isn't visible at the edge of the field, there is another reason for it other than #1 or #2--some reason you're not seeing it.
I have some ideas about that, related to where, perhaps, you observe.
I suspect it's not very dark.

--------------------
Don Pensack




Eh?

Star images in my 22mm LVW are still pinpoints right to the edge. I see no coma which is all that matters. FYI, it is quite dark. You can try to rationalize all you want, but I KNOW what I am seeing. I am done arguing here. You don't see what I see, and nobody else does either. You can do all of the math you want here for eons and it won't change what I see.

This is all that matters.




When Don put the 22mm LVW in Newtonians, he was able to see the coma from the mirror...

So the question becomes, you know where you stand but where do the rest of us stand? Is someone to believe that somehow the coma disappears? Myself, I can see coma with any eyepiece in my 10 inch F/5 Newtonian if I use it without a coma corrector, it's not that difficult to see. A bright star at the edge of the field is not clean, round and tailless.

Jon


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Mike B
Starstruck
*****

Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: Celebrity Deathmatch: 22 Pan vs. 24 Pan new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5848156 - 05/08/13 04:35 PM

While i've been observing the heavens with telescopes since i was a young pre-teen (ie. pre-1970), i am fairly recent to fast(ish) Dobs, so "coma" was a fairly new experience- at least in the helpings dished out at F4.55!

So it's been a li'l while since i've tried viewing w/o a ParaCorr in place, and have NEVER done so with this specific EP (LVW-22)... i will have to give that a go, and see what the coma looks like. Maybe then i'll have a better idea of what Markus is or isn't seein'?

It took me a while to become cognizant of coma's presence... i *DO* distinctly recall feeling that the 24mm Pan was largely "unaffected" by it. Then i picked up a used ParaCorr... and began to see differently.


I no longer have ANY Panoptics, but i *DO* have a couple o'LVWs... particularly the FL in question. So we'll see what can be seen- hopefully soon...


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Mike B
Starstruck
*****

Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: Celebrity Deathmatch: 22 Pan vs. 24 Pan new [Re: Mike B]
      #5854738 - 05/12/13 01:56 AM

Quote:

So we'll see what can be seen-




Okay, finally managed to get out! Among many, many EP trials & comparo's, i remembered to stick the 22-LVW into the Dob's focuser (f4.55 native, no ParaCorr).

Yes, there was coma. Stars were pretty sharp over the inner two-thirds of field diameter... but noticeable degradation developed beyond that. At the outer 10% of field, the comatic flair plus lateral color was quite noticeable. Same effect was seen no matter what edge the bright star (Spica) was slewed into.

If one looks straight ahead into the FoV, the 65* field is wide enough that this aberration isn't overwhelming- only if you go looking for it. The "view", as a whole, is wide enough- and sharp enough over the central two-thirds, that it is a very pleasant viewing experience... but as good as the Vixen LVWs are, they aren't magical. There is coma to be seen, if left uncorrected.


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Jeff Morgan
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 09/28/03

Loc: Prescott, AZ
Re: Celebrity Deathmatch: 22 Pan vs. 24 Pan new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5854829 - 05/12/13 04:26 AM

Tonight I had Round 1 of 22 Pan vs. 22 T4. The scope was an Astro-Physics Star 12, a 4.7" f/8.5 refractor. The test area was the region between Beta and Gamma Lyrae, and the area around Gamma Cygni.

Good news and Bad News (from the perspective of the sentimental favorite and Old Reliable 22 Pan): Good news is they are relatively close to where one would ask "is it worth the cost difference to switch?" The bad news is that the 22 Pan is clearly fighting this battle from behind.

But it wasn't all roses for the 22 T4 either. Firstly, after selling off my last Instajudst eyepiece 5 years ago, I now remember how much I disliked that particular feature. Well, I learned to ignore it before, I can learn to ignore it again. Also, since acquiring the T4 I had forgotten to tape over the "safety" undercut, so I experienced quite a few snags during eyepiece swaps. Must be the fault of that cheaply made Astro-Physics MaxBright diagonal (sarcasm font in use).

The telling area was near Gamma Cygni. The dark lanes that lace the region seemed a bit more apparent in the T4, but that needs more trials to be sure. Sadly, I also noticed some field curvature. With Gamma centered, I looked at the cluster just to the north (NGC 6910). It was near field edge in both eyepieces (of course much nearer the edge in the 22 Pan). When I focused for the faintest stars in the cluster, Gamma at center was a bit defocused. I noted this in both eyepieces. Oh well - as I tell some of the younger people I work with: Age has many surprises in store for you, and not many of them are pleasant.

I was also putting the Howie Glatter Parallizer through it's paces tonight. One of the tests was Izar. I focused it sharply in a 8 Delos (127x) and slewed to place it right on the field edge - no curvature noted! It was very nearly as sharp as it was in the center. Perhaps my eyes were not to blame for the curvature noted in the 22 mm eyepieces - I can only hope. And it confirms again what an amazing job Tele Vue did with the Delos.

Funny thing was, I also ran the Izar test with the 8 Brandon - an eyepiece I expect to dominate central field performance, but fall off as the edge is approached. It was actually very good until very close to the field edge - call it 90% - before distortions (appeared to be astigmatism) became noticeable. But even then, the split was clean. Not as good as Delos in that respect, but better than I expected.

Of course no decisions were reached tonight between the 22 mm eyepieces, I promised myself I would spend most of the summer making up my mind. I'm happy the 22 Pan acquitted itself so well in Round One - I was expecting a wipe-out. OTOH, it means I have to agonize a bit more over the decision on which eyepiece to part company with.


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Blake Andrews
sage
*****

Reged: 07/31/08

Loc: Iowa
Re: Celebrity Deathmatch: 22 Pan vs. 24 Pan new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5855178 - 05/12/13 10:41 AM

Hi Jeff,

Awesome report. Thanks!

I also have the 22Pan, 22T4, and 24Pan. We were out with the Scouts camping this weekend. We had pristine skies last night, but no time to observe. Hopefully, later this spring I'll be able to add more to this discussion.

Cheers!
Blake


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Scanning4Comets
Markus
*****

Reged: 12/26/04

Re: Celebrity Deathmatch: 22 Pan vs. 24 Pan new [Re: Blake Andrews]
      #5855832 - 05/12/13 03:58 PM

Quote:

Okay, finally managed to get out! Among many, many EP trials & comparo's, i remembered to stick the 22-LVW into the Dob's focuser (f4.55 native, no ParaCorr).

Yes, there was coma. Stars were pretty sharp over the inner two-thirds of field diameter... but noticeable degradation developed beyond that. At the outer 10% of field, the comatic flair plus lateral color was quite noticeable. Same effect was seen no matter what edge the bright star (Spica) was slewed into.

If one looks straight ahead into the FoV, the 65* field is wide enough that this aberration isn't overwhelming- only if you go looking for it. The "view", as a whole, is wide enough- and sharp enough over the central two-thirds, that it is a very pleasant viewing experience... but as good as the Vixen LVWs are, they aren't magical. There is coma to be seen, if left uncorrected.




Hmmmmmm....

I guess I wasn't using a bright enough star then! I did use a bright star when I tested my 22mm LVW...but maybe it wasn't bright enough! But then again, one doesn't really do then when observing all of the time anyways. I tried the same thing last week with my 28mm ES 68 and saw quite a bit of coma as well. I used Arcturus in Bootes. I didn't do the same with the 22mm LVW which I will do next time I get out there.

Thanks for doing that, and I STAND CORRECTED about what I said earlier.

Maybe it IS time for that dreaded Paracorr! (Wish they were not so expensive) !!!

Cheers,


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Don Taylor
sage


Reged: 07/12/09

Loc: South TEXAS
Re: Celebrity Deathmatch: 22 Pan vs. 24 Pan new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5855921 - 05/12/13 05:12 PM

I've used paracorrs for years. I resisted too but it does make a big difference once you know what to look for. See if you can find a late type 1 (used) as it should be less that 1/2 the price of a new type 2, and will work very well in an f4.5 scope

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