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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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Scott99
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Reged: 05/10/07

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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6005014 - 08/03/13 03:28 PM

Quote:

In other words, garden variety Tani Abbe Orthos have about as much in common with ZAOs as a McDonalds Big Mac has with a Ruths Chris filet mignon; there's both beef...and that's about all you can say as the similarities end at species.




not sure about the volanco tops, but my comparison between the ZAO-I 16mm and the UO HD 18mm showed them to have barely any difference in my 6-inch apo. The two series seem very similar to me in design and performance.

re: TV Plossl, actually symmetricals, I've been told that TV made a wee sacrifice at the center of the field vs. Claves in order to improve edge sharpness, which is very good. Claves definitely have a drop-off at the edge, even at f/15.

In the days of yore (70's-80's), orthos were considered the sharpest for planetary (at the center) and Plossls were actually considered wider-field eyepieces that were not quite as good as orthos for planets in the center. (if you wanted to get really wild with the wide-field you'd go to a Konig or Erfle).

Nowadays Plossls are considered "minimum glass" next to the behemoth wide-fields and nearly equivalent to orthos, but the eyepieces' design is quite different. I still like the extra 10 degrees that a Plossl provides over an ortho for DSO viewing. or even psuedo-plossls like Sterling and TV work really well for me.

I think it wasn't just f/4.5 dobs that killed off orthos & plossl for most people, it was light pollution as well. Getting the same FOV at higher power darkens the sky. at f/8 and under dark sky sites the plossls are still working well for me, in that setting I can see the contrast improvment vs. the 8 element wide fields.


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Scott99
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Aquarist]
      #6005106 - 08/03/13 04:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:

interesting, $153 and up for the longer ones, I wonder if these are minimum allowed prices or if other vendors will go lower.




Takahashi is fair traded pricing.




It looks like these prices are going to stick. It is the same discount off list price that vendors are charging for the LE's.

Texas Nautical has posted them on their page:

https://www.landseaskyco.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=21_112...


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BillP
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6005296 - 08/03/13 08:04 PM

Quote:

"Their reputation is too well established and their premium incarnations, like the ZAOs, are without peer in other designs."

But Bill, the reason for the ZAOs' uberness isn't really the Abbe design, but rather the execution. You could take pretty much any design and apply the same care in polish, coating selection and fabrication and make a tough to beat on-axis eyepiece.




I would take the UO HDs any day over the best Plossls out there. The design (and its incarnations) simply excels at planetary. Now if some vendor had the *fortitude* to execute a Plossl as exactingly as ZAO did their Abbes, then perhaps there would be some competition for Top Planetary Shot design. The popular wisdom always has been and continues to be (with good reason) that an Abbe is where to look when planetary is the primary pursuit on one's mind. If Plossls were so obviously better, then people would not be clammoring for the Volcano and HD Orthos to return. The reason they have returned...is that they are great sellers!


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Jeff Morgan
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6005633 - 08/04/13 12:09 AM

Quote:

You learn to go to war with the army you have.




When war is forced upon you, yes.

But if you have time you can build the army you need to change the world as demonstrated by the 40th president.

Quote:

In fact, I do have both of these options.




For whatever reason you would seem to be missing the Third Way - putting tracking on the larger scope. It will change your world.


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leonard
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Reged: 10/19/07

Loc: West Virginia
Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #6005841 - 08/04/13 04:12 AM

Hello ,


>>>>>> But if you have time you can build the army you need to change the world as demonstrated by the 40th president. <<<<<<


Amen



For whatever reason you would seem to be missing the Third Way - putting tracking on the larger scope. It will change your world.

Yes it will , IMO . It did mine .


Leonard


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leonard
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 10/19/07

Loc: West Virginia
Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: leonard]
      #6005853 - 08/04/13 04:34 AM

Hello ,


32 Brandon & 32 Tak Abbe would make an interesting line-up for a shoot out for faint objects and star cluster apperance in a longer FL refractor.


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Astrojensen
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Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: leonard]
      #6005867 - 08/04/13 04:55 AM

Quote:

32 Brandon & 32 Tak Abbe would make an interesting line-up for a shoot out for faint objects and star cluster apperance in a longer FL refractor.




You could include these:

http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p1429_SuperView-32m...

I have the 40mm version and it's a very sharp, contrasty eyepiece, especially in my binoviewer, where I use it when the seeing conditions are poor or I just need the lowest possible magnification. It's superb for looking at faculae with the binoviewer on my 85mm Zeiss with INTES herschel wedge and polarization filter, better, in fact, than the 25mm Zeiss microscope eyepieces, because of the lower magnification. The adjustable eyeguards make it very comfortable to look through.

I am very excited about the new 32mm Takahashi abbes, but I am torn between them and the TS 32mm Superviews. Both seem to have advantages over the other.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Sarkikos
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Reged: 12/18/07

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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #6005995 - 08/04/13 10:15 AM

Jeff & Leonard,

Quote:

For whatever reason you would seem to be missing the Third Way - putting tracking on the larger scope. It will change your world.




Eventually I intend to acquire a 14" Dob with tracking. But for now, I don't think it would be worthwhile to install a tracking mount on the 10". I don't want to put money and effort in that direction. That is not going to happen. It would be one more big gizmo to have to haul outside or to the dark site. I know several people who have an eq platform for their Dobs and they hardly ever bother to use the platform.

Besides, I've developed the ability to observe skillfully without tracking.

Mike


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bcuddihee
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Reged: 11/04/06

Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6006011 - 08/04/13 10:47 AM

Thomas do you know the fov on the superview ep's? What is the design...modified plossl?
bc


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Starman1
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Reged: 06/24/03

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: bcuddihee]
      #6006031 - 08/04/13 11:05 AM

The Superview eyepieces are sold by many different companies. They are similar to an Erfle design. They have a 68 degree AFOV in some lengths, 60 degrees in some lengths, and a couple have AFOVs in the 40s because of the longer focal lengths.
I know GSO makes some, but this is an eyepiece design that has been so common over the last 20 years that I think they may be made by several Chinese makers, i.e. "in the public domain".


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Sarkikos
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: leonard]
      #6006201 - 08/04/13 03:25 PM

Quote:

32 Brandon & 32 Tak Abbe would make an interesting line-up for a shoot out for faint objects and star cluster apperance in a longer FL refractor.




Brandons have only FC coatings. In a contest for bagging faint objects, I think the Brandon 32 would not do well against a Tak Abbe 32 unless maybe the Tak has FC coatings, also. If the Tak has FMC coatings, the Brandon will not have a chance. Brandons do not have superior light transmission. The Sterling Plossls with their FMC coatings do better for faint objects than the Brandons. The XW's also have better light transmission than Brandons.

Now as for appearance of star clusters, that's another matter. The Brandons might win out for best presentation, depending on the expectations of the observer.

Mike


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leonard
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Reged: 10/19/07

Loc: West Virginia
Re: Takahashi Abbe series [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6006358 - 08/04/13 05:57 PM

Hello Mike ,


Its a shame Sterling does not have a 32mm but thats life . I have the 12mm sterling and like it very much.
I forgot about the Tele Vue 32 plossl it would fit in here . IMO low power eyepieces are all about the best light transmission and pin point stars across the field of view no matter how large or small that FOV is ,in the scope its to be used in.
BTW , I only use my platform when going after Jupter or Saturn , never for deep sky as like you,I see no need for it. It lets me relax and view with only small corrections now and then .
I hope these Tak Abbe's turn out to be as good as the HD U.O. eyepiece or hopefully better as I would like to purchase the 32mm myself .

Leonard


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Sarkikos
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series [Re: leonard]
      #6006619 - 08/04/13 09:03 PM

Leonard,

Sterling doesn't have a 32mm, but they come close, since there is a 30mm Sterling Plossl in 2" format. I have the Sterling 12.5, 17, 20 and 25. They are in my deep sky case along with the Delo's, XW's and ES. I used to have Brandons in the case, but then I thought it might be best to have only FMC coated eyepieces for deep sky. So now I leave the Brandons at home for planets, lunar, doubles and the brighter DSO.

I haven't read anything about the coatings for the Tak Abbe Orthos. Some think that simpler coatings - such as on the Brandons - are actually better for planet observation. My personal opinion is still unsettled on that question. But I am confident that modern FMC coatings would be better for the Tak's if they are used for deep sky, where superior light transmission is important.

Mike


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Sarkikos
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6007217 - 08/05/13 08:37 AM

According to the Anacortes website, the new Tak Abbe Orthos are FMC (fully multicoated). So we can expect the Taks to trounce the Brandons in a contest for superior light transmission.

Takahashi 32mm Abbe Eyepiece 1.25"

Quote:

Each of the four elements is fully multi coated for maximum light transmission which significantly affects the contrast positively.




Mike


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Astrojensen
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series [Re: bcuddihee]
      #6008801 - 08/06/13 04:27 AM

Quote:

Thomas do you know the fov on the superview ep's? What is the design...modified plossl?




Hi bc

There are several different Superviews, so there's likely more than one design. The ones I have are 1.25" 40mm's, with just 43° AFOV. They seem to be normal plössls, but I haven't taken them apart to check. There's also a 32mm 1.25" with 50°, which is probably also a plössl.

Moving up to 2", there's a 42mm and a 30mm, but now with 60° and 68° AFOV, respectively. These seem to be an Erfle design or a variant thereof.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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dscarpa
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: edif300]
      #6009681 - 08/06/13 03:10 PM

Ancortes has the Tak Abbes in new product announcement in Astromart. They'll be $153 plus shipping with the 9, 18 and 32 mid August the rest in September. They say these will be a revival of the older Tak orthos. Does anyone know how good those are? Davuid

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jrbarnett
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6009686 - 08/06/13 03:17 PM

Sure, but the magic of any eyepiece isn't transmission. The eye can't detect less than a 10% delta in throughput at peak visual wavelength, all else being equal. The magic of an eyepiece is in ensuring that as much of the transmitted light as possible winds up exactly where it is supposed to be in the focused image. That's where things like polish quality and baffling make a difference, and with respect to baffling Takahashi hasn't always been particularly careful. The 5mm LE in particular was a poor design in this regard. In addition, the Takahashi eyepieces I've owned (sets of MC Orthos and LEs) haven't been outstanding performers, but rather mid-pack performers on par with lower cost eyepieces like Televue Plossl and Celestron Ultimas. At least these aren't over-the-top in price so trying them out won't represent much risk even if they do turn out to be ordinary performers.

Regards,

Jim


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Astrojensen
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6009803 - 08/06/13 04:08 PM

Quote:

The eye can't detect less than a 10% delta in throughput at peak visual wavelength, all else being equal.




On the Moon and planets, I think you're correct, but I don't think this is true on threshold deep-sky objects, the ones where you really need to work to see them.

I'll run some experiments with aperture stops, once it gets dark and clear around here and I don't have to get up to work very early next morning.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Starman1
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #6010045 - 08/06/13 06:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The eye can't detect less than a 10% delta in throughput at peak visual wavelength, all else being equal.




On the Moon and planets, I think you're correct, but I don't think this is true on threshold deep-sky objects, the ones where you really need to work to see them.

I'll run some experiments with aperture stops, once it gets dark and clear around here and I don't have to get up to work very early next morning.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark



Thomas,
We can beat this dead horse to death again, but here are some pertinent facts:
--the eye's response is logarithmic--a ten times increase in measured brightness is seen as a doubling in perceived brightness.
--a ten percent difference in brightness, which is 0.1 magnitude, is *just* visible in a lab setting using two identical surfaces illuminated to a difference of varying brightnesses.
--the AAVSO receives hundreds of thousands of variable star observations and they find there is a "scatter" of accuracy, even from the most experienced observers, at viewing brightness differences of roughly 0.1 magnitude.

So there is ample evidence to suggest that a brightness difference of less than 10% is going to yield experimental results that do not differ from random chance.

So let's talk threshold. How is a threshold of visibility perceived? Well, it turns out it's not a visible/invisible dichotomy, it's visible 100% of the time, visible 50% of the time, etc. A true threshold is often referred to as "visible 10% of the time with averted vision" (see the work of Bradley Schaefer), which means "invisible 90% of the time with averted vision".
In fact, the sliding degree of visibility would make a cutoff point very very hard to determine.

I've found that the sky varies in transparency, and the variation exceeds, by a large margin, the small degree of separation between invisible and visible 10% of the time with averted vision that you are dealing with when you talk about light transmission. With the same scope, I have seen wide variations from night to night in the degree of visibility of certain features of extended objects, and with the same eyepieces.

Plus, huge differences in contrast exist between scopes that can have a distinct bearing on the visibility of said differences.

At best, we are probably talking about the difference between seeing something 30% of the time with averted vision versus 10% of the time with averted vision. Good luck with that. First you have to actually find a threshold object or feature, and that won't be easy. One suggestion might be the galaxy cluster Abell 2151 in Hercules. There are a vast number of galaxies in that group and they vary significantly in magnitude.
Chances are, if you use a map to guide you to the galaxies in the cluster, that you might find one that meets the criterion of being a "threshold" object. Then, you could begin to compare different eyepieces on that threshold object.
Of course, the object would have to be at the same altitude for every eyepiece in order to provide similar extinction.
And it would have to be on the same night, at the same site, or the comparisons could be skewed by transparency changes. Of course, that presumes there wouldn't be momentary fluctuations in transparency during the test, so absolutely no clouds, dust, smog, or water vapor could be allowed in the atmosphere.

I don't think you will be able to get reliable, repeatable, data. It certainly would be worth a try. The hard part will be selecting targets.


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The Ardent
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Reged: 10/24/08

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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Starman1]
      #6010105 - 08/06/13 06:55 PM

If I already have the LE's, what's the advantage of the Tak Abbe's?

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