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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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edif300
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Takahashi Abbe series
      #5979182 - 07/19/13 05:27 AM

Takahashi has announced today a new series of Abbe eyepieces in FL of 6, 9, 12.5, 18, 25 and 32mm. Four elements in two groups (three of them cemented).



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Astrojensen
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: edif300]
      #5979185 - 07/19/13 05:31 AM

Wow! Seems the recent announcements of the death of the orthos were wildly exaggerated. The UO HD orthos are coming back and now this.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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JustaBoy
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: edif300]
      #5979216 - 07/19/13 06:30 AM

Link?

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ManuelJ
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: JustaBoy]
      #5979223 - 07/19/13 06:41 AM



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Sarkikos
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: ManuelJ]
      #5979243 - 07/19/13 07:11 AM

We need pics and comparos ASAP!


Mike


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dyslexic nam
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: ManuelJ]
      #5979267 - 07/19/13 07:47 AM

Quote:






Love it!


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t.r.
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: dyslexic nam]
      #5979279 - 07/19/13 08:00 AM

Cool! Televue...are you listening???

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Simoes Pedro
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: t.r.]
      #5979313 - 07/19/13 08:22 AM

I am going to be so broke...

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Stellarfire
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: edif300]
      #5979343 - 07/19/13 08:36 AM

Quote:

Takahashi has announced today a new series of Abbe eyepieces in FL of 6, 9, 12.5, 18, 25 and 32mm. Four elements in two groups (three of them cemented).




Just the TAK news I wanted to hear!

Stephan


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Jim Curry
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: edif300]
      #5979349 - 07/19/13 08:39 AM

Great news. The spread from 32mm down to 12.5 is nice. They really need to flesh out from the 9 to say a 5mm or even 4mm in 1mm increments. A 9 to a 6 is way to big a jump in magnification except for the shortest of focal lengths.

Jim


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Greg77
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: t.r.]
      #5979354 - 07/19/13 08:42 AM

They are here:

http://www.takahashijapan.com/ct-news/news_topics/news_ts-abbe.html


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Stellarfire
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Greg77]
      #5979370 - 07/19/13 08:54 AM

Starbase Tokyo has them also listed:
Using Google English Translator for Starbase Tokyo , and clicking on the menu bar on left side under the "Whats New" department, one sees their new TAK Abbe listings including prices.

Stephan


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Sarkikos
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Stellarfire]
      #5979405 - 07/19/13 09:12 AM

32mm Ortho? That is unusual. Not sure if I'd go for that.

I had a Vixen Ortho 40mm for a while, eventually sold it. Not so good for my f/5-ish Dobs. 46 degrees AFOV in a low-power, wide exit pupil eyepiece. 2" format. Might even have been a 2-2 symmetrical according to some, rather than a true Abbe ortho. Plenty of long eye relief. Plenty of outer field aberrations: astigmatism, FC? I just knew I did not like it, even with a Paracorr.

Mike


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Sarkikos
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Jim Curry]
      #5979422 - 07/19/13 09:18 AM

Quote:

Great news. The spread from 32mm down to 12.5 is nice. They really need to flesh out from the 9 to say a 5mm or even 4mm in 1mm increments. A 9 to a 6 is way to big a jump in magnification except for the shortest of focal lengths.

Jim




Yep. They need to give us a 7, 5 and 4 like the other Abbe ortho series we are used to, plus an 8mm.

Mike


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Sarkikos
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5979426 - 07/19/13 09:21 AM

Plenty of eye relief for the 32mm. If I'm reading the chart on the Japanese website correctly, that's 28mm eye relief.

Mike


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Stellarfire
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Stellarfire]
      #5979436 - 07/19/13 09:25 AM

No word on ED glasses employed with these new Abbes. Looking at the prices, they are - by TAK standards - quite economically priced. The question is, if these new Abbes can and will play in the ZAO-II league.

JPY pricing according TAK homepage:

9mm 10,500 JPY = 114 USD / 85 EUR
18mm 11,550 JPY = 125 USD / 94 EUR
32mm 15,330 JPY = 166 USD / 125 EUR


Stephan


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Tamiji Homma
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Stellarfire]
      #5979488 - 07/19/13 09:57 AM

I wonder if they are made by this company?

http://ohi-optical.co.jp/base.html

Tammy


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Jeff Morgan
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5979705 - 07/19/13 11:54 AM

Quote:

32mm Ortho? That is unusual. Not sure if I'd go for that.




You might be pleasantly surprised. I have a 32 Brandon and a 31 Nagler. At that focal length the Nagler gets about 80% of the focuser time due to field/navigation considerations. But the 32 Brandon gives me a noticeably sharper and contrasty view. Although you wouldn't think it, Milky Way fields are actually better - just quite a bit smaller.


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SteveC
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: edif300]
      #5979745 - 07/19/13 12:27 PM

Quote:

Takahashi has announced today a new series of Abbe eyepieces in FL of 6, 9, 12.5, 18, 25 and 32mm. Four elements in two groups (three of them cemented).






I hope they're much better than the .965 ortho eyepieces they marketed many years back.

Edited by SteveC (07/19/13 12:35 PM)


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Scott99
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5979750 - 07/19/13 12:30 PM

this is great news! If the quality is good, the 32mm is sure to be popular. People are paying crazy amounts for 34-35mm premium orthos and plossls to complete their ZAO sets.

The timing makes one wonder if these optics are from the same source as the new UO orthos. The old Tak orthos were different from the UO.


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payner
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: edif300]
      #5979898 - 07/19/13 02:12 PM

And the build and cosmetics look like typical Takahashi quality. I've long said my set of Tak LEs are the best built eyepieces I've owned/used, and they're pretty good through the field lens. Good for them and it'll be interesting how these compare to the UO, ZAO, Baader, etc.

Best
Randy


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Sarkikos
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5979908 - 07/19/13 02:16 PM

Quote:

Quote:

32mm Ortho? That is unusual. Not sure if I'd go for that.




You might be pleasantly surprised. I have a 32 Brandon and a 31 Nagler. At that focal length the Nagler gets about 80% of the focuser time due to field/navigation considerations. But the 32 Brandon gives me a noticeably sharper and contrasty view. Although you wouldn't think it, Milky Way fields are actually better - just quite a bit smaller.




I have a Brandon 32mm but hardly ever use it. In my 10" f/4.8 Dob, I like the view better through my ES 82 30 or Titan-II 40, especially in the Paracorr. Lately I've been taking those two to the dark site, but leaving my Brandons home. Now I use the Brandons mostly for planet/lunar or bright DSO viewing with my smaller grab-n-go scopes at home.

Mike


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Simoes Pedro
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5979921 - 07/19/13 02:25 PM

Funny, no one noticed ZAO I had a 32 as well.

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Sgt
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Simoes Pedro]
      #5979992 - 07/19/13 03:12 PM

It's a 34mm, the ZAO I.

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Astrojensen
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5980018 - 07/19/13 03:28 PM

Quote:

I have a Brandon 32mm but hardly ever use it. In my 10" f/4.8 Dob




I understand this perfectly, but I think that a pair of 32mm orthos is going to be a godsend for those who binoview with long focal ratio scopes. The price certainly isn't bad and if the new 32mm Tak orthos are as good as my 25mm Zeiss'es, I need a pair for when I do solar binoviewing on the 85mm f/19 Zeiss and the seeing is a little iffy.

It's certainly awesome and interesting news. Especially in this build quality and very acceptable price point. Finally, the planetary enthusiasts and optics fanatics have something new in the ortho class to rave about again.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Starman1
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Tamiji Homma]
      #5980158 - 07/19/13 04:50 PM

Quote:

I wonder if they are made by this company?

http://ohi-optical.co.jp/base.html

Tammy



Good catch.
Is this what became of Masuyama?


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Tamiji Homma
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Starman1]
      #5980180 - 07/19/13 05:02 PM

Hi Don,

The founder and president of the company is Mr. Masuyama.

Yes, Masuyama series are from the company as far as I know...

I don't know what other brand eyepieces are from them. Takahashi LE, UW, ... maybe

Tammy

Edited by Tamiji Homma (07/20/13 12:21 PM)


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Jeff Morgan
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Scott99]
      #5980198 - 07/19/13 05:09 PM

Quote:

this is great news! If the quality is good, the 32mm is sure to be popular. People are paying crazy amounts for 34-35mm premium orthos and plossls to complete their ZAO sets.




If I got the correct exchange rate, it's looking like $110 per eyepiece. Hard to say if that is "reasonable" without knowing the quality level.


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Sarkikos
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5980506 - 07/19/13 09:15 PM

Thomas,

Quote:

Quote:

I have a Brandon 32mm but hardly ever use it. In my 10" f/4.8 Dob




I understand this perfectly, but I think that a pair of 32mm orthos is going to be a godsend for those who binoview with long focal ratio scopes. The price certainly isn't bad and if the new 32mm Tak orthos are as good as my 25mm Zeiss'es, I need a pair for when I do solar binoviewing on the 85mm f/19 Zeiss and the seeing is a little iffy.




Yes, and I understand that completely. If I had an 8" or larger SCT or Mak, or at least a 3" slow refractor, I'd probably go for a pair of Tak Ortho 32's, too! This is also why I never bothered to pick up a Brandon 48. But I guess it wouldn't hurt to get a Tak 32 for my C6...

Quote:

It's certainly awesome and interesting news. Especially in this build quality and very acceptable price point. Finally, the planetary enthusiasts and optics fanatics have something new in the ortho class to rave about again.




Yessir, it looks like reports of the death of the simple glass eyepiece have been greatly exaggerated.


Mike


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Scott99
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5981348 - 07/20/13 12:18 PM

I think the people seeking the 34mm ZAO I (or a suitable stand-in) have big Maks or refractors and want to fine-tune their planetary magnifications.

Or for bino-viewing, a lot people like to barlow-up the magnification and use bigger eyepieces at high power. The eye relief is definitely more comfortable.

It looks like Tak thinks people will prefer the LE series at 4mm and 5mm. Did the old series go down to 4mm, or did they use the 4mm hi-ortho? I agree, they always do a good job with their eyepiece designs, good eyecups, etc. no safety groove on these either


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Astrojensen
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Scott99]
      #5981379 - 07/20/13 12:33 PM

Quote:

No safety groove on these either




Yay! I did notice this as one of the first things, but forgot to comment on it earlier.

Safety grooves are a bloody nightmare in a binoviewer, often causing the eyepieces to sit a little obliquely in the holders. Or get caught by the compression ring.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark

Edited by Astrojensen (07/20/13 12:34 PM)


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Jeff Morgan
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5981729 - 07/20/13 05:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

No safety groove on these either




Yay! I did notice this as one of the first things, but forgot to comment on it earlier.

Safety grooves are a bloody nightmare in a binoviewer, often causing the eyepieces to sit a little obliquely in the holders. Or get caught by the compression ring.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark




There not very great in my focusers or star diagonals either. A solution in desperate search of a problem.


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johnnyha
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5981800 - 07/20/13 06:25 PM

The problem with safety grooves is, they are not remotely compatible. I have many scopes, binos, accessories and many eyepieces with safety grooves and none of them are the same width or the same distance from the shoulder, it's a complete mishmash.

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suburbanskies
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Tamiji Homma]
      #5994712 - 07/28/13 01:00 PM

Quote:

I wonder if they are made by this company?

http://ohi-optical.co.jp/base.html

Tammy




Could be.

Anyone try the new Fujiyama HD orthos sold by Kokusai Kohki? KK says that the maker is in the Tokyo area and the specs seem to match the Ohi Optical specs. I wonder if Takahashi is using the same optics by Ohi? The price point is the same for the Takahashi and the Kokusai Kohki eyepieces.

In any case, it is great to have these options. And NO undercut!

Mark


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dscarpa
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: edif300]
      #5994774 - 07/28/13 01:48 PM

At those prices if the quality is up to Tak standards count me in! David

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Stellarfire
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: dscarpa]
      #5994798 - 07/28/13 02:05 PM

No word on ED-glass used in the new Abbe series. At the announced retail prices, I would not expect to see ZAO-II quality level, but good "standard grade" e.p.'s.

Stephan


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t.r.
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #6002671 - 08/02/13 07:07 AM

Quote:

Quote:

this is great news! If the quality is good, the 32mm is sure to be popular. People are paying crazy amounts for 34-35mm premium orthos and plossls to complete their ZAO sets.




If I got the correct exchange rate, it's looking like $110 per eyepiece. Hard to say if that is "reasonable" without knowing the quality level.




ATWB has them listed now for $153 US. I'm hoping that Astronomics will offer these, I'd like to compare them to my Brandons.


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Scott99
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: t.r.]
      #6003236 - 08/02/13 01:50 PM

interesting, $153 and up for the longer ones, I wonder if these are minimum allowed prices or if other vendors will go lower.

I wonder how the optics will compare to something like the Pentax SMC orthos. It will definitely be nice to get these in regular 1.25 inch barrels with good eyeguards, unlike the prior Tak and Pentax .965 orthos.

The inevitable comparison will be with the new UO HD orthos. It looks like the Tak bodies will be better, will be interesting to test the optics. I'm not a big fan of paying jacked-up prices for used equipment, I think it's just great that we have two good options now, there is no reason to pay hundreds for a good ortho.


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jrbarnett
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: t.r.]
      #6003294 - 08/02/13 02:32 PM

Does Televue really need to be listening? Why would you want an Orthoscopic over one of their Plossls, really? The Plossl has a larger AFOV, is better corrected (Televue's design anyway) for fast scopes, and is competitively priced with the returned HD offering. It was Televue's Plossl, after all, that nearly relegated the commercial Orthoscopic to the dustbin of history in the first place. Recall that when Televue dropped the P-bomb, every other eyepiece seller scrambled to offer a Plossl variant (Vixen, Meade, Celestron, etc.) pretty much ending Orthoscopic offerings from those companies.

I think Orthoscopics, like many things retro, are enjoying a "faddish" renewal that will be temporary. The Introduction several years ago of the ZAO II limited run instilled in the hearts of many observers a longing to have a quality Orthoscopic at a price less than several hundreds of dollars a pop.

We're midway through that trend. The Japan Earthquake interrupted it for a period, and now it's finishing up. In ten years I predict that you'll be hard pressed to find a new Orthoscopic anywhere. It's not that they're bad eyepieces (they're not), but rather that they aren't any better than other newer available designs that cost the same and offer features Orthscopics cannot. They are a vestige of a time when 45-degrees without a total mess in the outer 20% of the FOV was novel and competitive. Now 45 degrees is puny and good off axis correction commonplace and cheap to obtain.

Regards,

Jim


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Deep13
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6003470 - 08/02/13 04:18 PM

Interested in the longer lengths IF they represent an improvement over TV Plossls, RKE, and 30mm old style Ultimas for planets with BV.

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BillP
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6003498 - 08/02/13 04:37 PM

Quote:

Does Televue really need to be listening? Why would you want an Orthoscopic over one of their Plossls, really? The Plossl has a larger AFOV, is better corrected (Televue's design anyway) for fast scopes, and is competitively priced with the returned HD offering. It was Televue's Plossl, after all, that nearly relegated the commercial Orthoscopic to the dustbin of history in the first place.




Oh contrare IMO Dustbin? Let us recall that the TV Plossl was really a reaction to the Clave Plossl. Now by my reckoning the Clave put up a serious fight against the Abbe, and this was so for two reasons: same lens count and focal lengths down to 3mm. Icing on the cake...larger AFOV. So if the TV Plossl is to be considered seriously as an Abbe defeater, then they very well better push out a 4mm, 5mm, 6mm, and 10mm. And do this without cheating with a zoom with more elements and arguably softer view.

My next point will be to remind you of the VHS vs Beta battle of years gone by. I don't think you will find much of an argument that the Beta format was superior technically. And yet it didn't win. Why? Because winning requires more than simply being better technically. There are a host of other factors involved. Same with the Plossl vs Abbe. For what, decades and decades now the Plossl, will all its might, has been unable to defeat the Abbe as a planetary choice. Heck, it is not often even considered a contender in the arena...not a serious one! How can the design be seriously considered as such when no one has the gumption to make a two double Plossl/Symmetrical design where eye relief is feasible in a 7mm and 6mm and 5mm and 4mm and 3mm version? The truth of the matter is, is that the Abbe is really still pretty much unchallenged in the planetary role as "the" choice. Simply because of all the low glass count designs out there for planetary, no one seems to be able to make the Plossl with the needed focal lengths. And while the Monocentric can certainly keep pace with the Abbe in some respects, it can't with a controlled off-axis even with its limited 30 degrees. So in the end, the Abbe remains king and the Plossl just a wannabe


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Sarkikos
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: BillP]
      #6003584 - 08/02/13 05:21 PM

I hope that whoever will be the first to first light these Tak Abbe Orthos is an experienced and competent planet observer. It does become tiresome to read field reports when the observer (1) cannot see a difference on-axis between eyepiece x and eyepiece y when you yourself have, or (2) doesn't even know what to look for in planet surface features to tell if there is a difference in eyepiece performance, or (3) ends the report with something like, "Any differences were insignificant." Wait a minute! Often it is exactly the so-called "insignificant" differences in surface detail that interest the planet observer most.

Mike


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Starman1
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: BillP]
      #6003592 - 08/02/13 05:29 PM

A lot of observers today, whether using refractors or reflectors, are using scopes of f/6.5 and shorter.
Without going into why that may be true, it brings up a point: a "planetary"
eyepiece not only has to control scatter on axis, but it should do a superb job of focusing the light at all wavelengths into as small a spot as possible.
If I read the book "Telescope Optics" correctly, at f/5, the Plossl concentrates the light into a smaller spot on axis and ten mm off axis, i.e. the center of the field.
At f/10, the comparison is essentially a dead heat.
At f/15, the Abbe design pulls away and is superior to the Plossl.

I owned orthoscopics way back when I owned a 4" f/15 refractor, and I considered them really sharp. Plossls weren't available then to challenge the Abbe orthos.
In today's world, were I the owner of one of the f/5 and shorter dobsonians that seem to represent a lot of what shows up at star parties, I'm not sure I would choose Plossls either, since there are some more sophisticated designs that have similar on-axis spot sizes but vastly superior off-axis images. After all, in a dob all images slowly drift across the field. It would be ultra-annoying to have to try to keep the planet image on-axis at 300X, even if the scope did move smoothly enough to allow it.
And therein lies the truth of both the Abbe-orthoscopic and the Plossl in its modern iteration: neither does a good job with off-axis images at f/5 and shorter. Astigmatism and chromatic aberration rear their ugly heads when images go significantly off-axis.

Say what you will, compared to some more modern designs, debating the merits of Plossls vs. Abbe orthoscopics is a little like debating whether or not you like a leather grip on your buggy whip.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6003593 - 08/02/13 05:30 PM

Quote:

I hope that whoever will be the first to first light these Tak Abbe Orthos is an experienced and competent planet observer. It does become tiresome to read field reports when the observer (1) cannot see a difference on-axis between eyepiece x and eyepiece y when you yourself have, or (2) doesn't even know what to look for in planet surface features to tell if there is a difference in eyepiece performance, or (3) ends the report with something like, "Any differences were insignificant." Wait a minute! Often it is exactly the so-called "insignificant" differences in surface detail that interest the planet observer most.

Mike




Or someone who takes an eyepiece with a critical focal ratio of say, 6, and tests in a f/4.5 Dob?



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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Starman1]
      #6003627 - 08/02/13 05:50 PM

Quote:

In today's world, were I the owner of one of the f/5 and shorter dobsonians that seem to represent a lot of what shows up at star parties, I'm not sure I would choose Plossls either, since there are some more sophisticated designs that have similar on-axis spot sizes but vastly superior off-axis images. After all, in a dob all images slowly drift across the field. It would be ultra-annoying to have to try to keep the planet image on-axis at 300X, even if the scope did move smoothly enough to allow it.
And therein lies the truth of both the Abbe-orthoscopic and the Plossl in its modern iteration: neither does a good job with off-axis images at f/5 and shorter. Astigmatism and chromatic aberration rear their ugly heads when images go significantly off-axis.




What you're saying is that an Ortho or Plossl (or other 4 element design) is not well-suited to undriven equipment of fast focal ratio where aberrations increase dramatically. In that world, other choices can deliver more (and better) field.

No argument with that. For casual planetary observing close on-axis and superior off-axis is an easy winner.

But for an observer whose passion is planets, are they likely to use an un-driven short focus Newtonian as primary equipment?

Of course not. It would be about the last choice, and should not be used to define priorities in planetary eyepiece performance.

And I suspect that at least half of the scopes sold (and used at star parties) are still not fast Dob/Newts.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Starman1]
      #6003658 - 08/02/13 06:10 PM

Quote:

Say what you will, compared to some more modern designs, debating the merits of Plossls vs. Abbe orthoscopics is a little like debating whether or not you like a leather grip on your buggy whip.




Bravo!


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #6003665 - 08/02/13 06:13 PM

orthos and plossls are like manual transmission in cars - most people have moved on to automatic, I think 90% in the US. But the original, elegant, cheaper stick-shift is still there, has been there all along, for those us that prefer it. And I'm guessing that the entire 10% driving manual think it's vastly preferable to auto, I know I do.

I first encountered these japanese orthos coming from Jaegers in the early 80's. Personally I've tried almost all the Tele Vue eyepieces as they've been released and I haven't found any over the years that I prefer over the Japanese orthos. I have caved on a couple Pentax XW's, otherwise I still use about 2 dozen orthos & plossls & variants.

I'm using all f/8 refractors, it's the other way around with the big Dob users I know - they're using 20 hand grenades and have 1 or 2 orthos in the collection for occasional use.


Edited by Scott99 (08/02/13 06:18 PM)


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: BillP]
      #6003733 - 08/02/13 06:47 PM

"TV Plossl was really a reaction to the Clave Plossl."

Sort of. But actually Clave, unlike the multitudes of mass-market Japan Ortho vendors, never had much of a volume business. What Televue did was cash in on the Clave mystique and cachet with a volume product that nonetheless achieved a level of cachet a notch or two above the volume Ortho competition.

With respect to focal lengths, I think Televue made a mistake in not producing Plossls below 8mm. While the eye relief prescription of an Ortho does offer a bit more eye relief at a given focal length, many of the most hallowed "high power" designs available have had miserably short eye relief - Pentax XO, Pentax XP, TMB Supermono, Brandon, etc.

The Plossl or Symmetrical has in fact defeated the Abbe for planetary use in the marketplace. There are far more planetary observing hours spent each clear night observing planets through Plossls than Orthos. Plossls must outsell Orthos 100-to-1 in fact, even though there are price-comparable examples at each tier.

Also the Beta vs. VHS battle isn't really analogous. The reason for Beta's failure had to do with higher price and shorter recording time. Plossls and Orthos are now and since the days of the Televue Plossl's introduction been similarly priced or in fact the Orthos were generally cheaper in the Televue Plossl's early days. That's the reverse of casting the Ortho in the Beta role and Plossl in the VHS role. Plossls beat Orthos of the day despite being the higher priced (Beta) entry in the market.

There are plenty of Plossls in short focal lengths. This 6mm is one of the best 6mm eyepieces I've used, for example:

http://s95.photobucket.com/user/jrbarnett_1964/media/IMG_0070.jpg.html?sort=3...

The 6mm Brandon, which is Plossl-like in many particulars, is likewise a great Plentary eyepiece. In fact I think the 6mm is the best of the bunch among the Brandons. Similarly many other Plossl or Plossl-like bandwagoners (Celestron with the Ultima, Parks with the Gold Series, Orion with the Ultrascopics and Meade with the Series 4000 Super Plossl) offer short focal length units that are quite decent.

I find much of the renewed love for Abbes to be born as much of nostalgia as from any virtue of the design relative to others. I've owned lots of Orthos, and still own a couple of lines and odd lot examples, but none of them are close to being my best planetary eyepieces.

Garden variety Abbes such as the UO Abbes (volcano tops) which typify the Abbes of the 60s, 70s and early 80s that preceded the Televue Plossls and "me too" imitators, aren't bad but aren't even close to top drawer for planetary purposes. Those are the Orthos that fell victim to the Plossl revolution.

- Jim


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Starman1]
      #6003739 - 08/02/13 06:49 PM

Quote:

A lot of observers today, whether using refractors or reflectors, are using scopes of f/6.5 and shorter.
Without going into why that may be true, it brings up a point: a "planetary"
eyepiece not only has to control scatter on axis, but it should do a superb job of focusing the light at all wavelengths into as small a spot as possible.
If I read the book "Telescope Optics" correctly, at f/5, the Plossl concentrates the light into a smaller spot on axis and ten mm off axis, i.e. the center of the field.
At f/10, the comparison is essentially a dead heat.
At f/15, the Abbe design pulls away and is superior to the Plossl.




Don,

You really can't rely on these spot diagrams because if they contend Plossl, then it is not the modern use of the term which is Symmetrical. Further, everyone changes the designs from standard, so unless the book you are referencing knows the specific TV design as it is in its production incarnation (not the patent), and the specific ZAO design (as example), then they are too far off IMO to extrapolate or interpolate. All-in-all I take most spot diagrams with a big grain of salt as they are not privvy to modern designs prescriptions. FWIW, if the TV 8mm (arguably the best symmetrical out there in that FL) were on par with other desings, like the AP-SPL or Brandon, then that would hold the spot in my stall. But it does not compare on-axis to either of those and is easily bested on-axis planetary on nights of good seeing and transparency. The TV 25mm Plossl similarly not close to the ZAO 25mm.

Plossls are great eyepieces and have great attributes, but for on-axis purity they do not come close to what a well executed Abbe consistently shows. Now when we talk Symmetrical vs Plossls (i.e., TV vs Clave), I have compared the two and while on-axis the TV was close, the Clave held a little more apparent contrast so the planetary picture was improved. Off-axis of course the TV took the prize...but then that didn't matter for me as the on-axis sweet spot was all that mattered (i.e., planetary). If I had to give a prize to the ENTIRE FOV then I would mostly agree that a Plossl puts up a better corrected field all around (when it made non-orthoscopic, as most are). However, the on-axis...Abbe always takes the prize (so far).

btw - I do like a leather grip on my telescope whip as it provides lots more fine control...especially in tense situations.

Edited by BillP (08/02/13 06:52 PM)


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6003744 - 08/02/13 06:55 PM

Quote:

The Plossl or Symmetrical has in fact defeated the Abbe for planetary use in the marketplace. There are far more planetary observing hours spent each clear night observing planets through Plossls than Orthos.




If we are going to use the metric of most used....then without a doubt the Plossl beats everything....Ethos....Nagler....everything. Btw, similarly chevy's beat Mercedes and drug store 500x 60mm refractors beat Takahashi and AP and TV combined. Abbe's IMO a unlikely ever to be supplanted as king of the hill design for planetary. Their reputation is too well established and their premium incarnations, like the ZAOs, are without peer in other designs. The marketplace shot itself in the foot with Plossls as they are so very mass produced and cheap, no onw would ever buy an overly expensive one (which would be needed as production cost to make them superb is just too high in the face of typical pricing). Brandon gets away with it because it keeps its distance from ever calling itself something as common as "Plossl". I've gone through everything out there multiple times and never did a Plossl approach a best executed Abbe. Monos certainly can, and the one-off 5 XO surpasses. Everything else...takes a back seat.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Scott99]
      #6003830 - 08/02/13 07:53 PM

Quote:

interesting, $153 and up for the longer ones, I wonder if these are minimum allowed prices or if other vendors will go lower.






Takahashi is fair traded pricing.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: BillP]
      #6003852 - 08/02/13 08:05 PM

"Their reputation is too well established and their premium incarnations, like the ZAOs, are without peer in other designs."

But Bill, the reason for the ZAOs' uberness isn't really the Abbe design, but rather the execution. You could take pretty much any design and apply the same care in polish, coating selection and fabrication and make a tough to beat on-axis eyepiece.

The problem is, ZAOs represent the tiniest of percentages of Abbe models made and sold globally. As you move away from the rare and into the consumer commercial, things change. There's a list of planetary eyepieces a yard long that will treat UO Volcano tops like an unwanted stepchild on planets all night long. The qualities of the Abbe design can't bridge superior fabrication quality in the other models ahead of the volcano tops on the list. In other words, garden variety Tani Abbe Orthos have about as much in common with ZAOs as a McDonalds Big Mac has with a Ruths Chris filet mignon; there's both beef...and that's about all you can say as the similarities end at species.

There's a reason that In and Out is schooling McDonalds in burgerland.

Regards,

Jim


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #6003914 - 08/02/13 08:32 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I hope that whoever will be the first to first light these Tak Abbe Orthos is an experienced and competent planet observer. It does become tiresome to read field reports when the observer (1) cannot see a difference on-axis between eyepiece x and eyepiece y when you yourself have, or (2) doesn't even know what to look for in planet surface features to tell if there is a difference in eyepiece performance, or (3) ends the report with something like, "Any differences were insignificant." Wait a minute! Often it is exactly the so-called "insignificant" differences in surface detail that interest the planet observer most.

Mike




Or someone who takes an eyepiece with a critical focal ratio of say, 6, and tests in a f/4.5 Dob?






Hey, I have a wide variety of f/numbers here to test an eyepiece: f/4.7, f/6, f/10, f/12, f/12.9, f/13.3. Take your pick!

But since larger aperture does have the potential to show finer surface detail, I'd rather choose my largest telescope - the 10" Dob - for testing the eyepiece. The 10" Dob just happens to be an f/4.7. And I'll just have to observe the planet the way I always do, by having it drift across the FOV, watching for finer detail as it crosses on-axis. No big deal. I know what to look for and I'll see the differences.

Mike


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #6003946 - 08/02/13 08:57 PM

Quote:

But for an observer whose passion is planets, are they likely to use an un-driven short focus Newtonian as primary equipment?

Of course not. It would be about the last choice, and should not be used to define priorities in planetary eyepiece performance.




I disagree. IMO & IME, there is an attribute of a planetary telescope that is more important than f/number or tracking. That is aperture. A well collimated, thermally controlled and optically decent 10" to 14" f/4.7 Dob is a mighty fine planetary scope. I'd take that over a smaller refractor or Cat any day.

Quote:

And I suspect that at least half of the scopes sold (and used at star parties) are still not fast Dob/Newts.




Not from what I've seen at my site. Most of the serious observers have 10" or larger Dobs. I gauge "serious" by the frequency of their use of the site.

Mike


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6003959 - 08/02/13 09:07 PM

Quote:

With respect to focal lengths, I think Televue made a mistake in not producing Plossls below 8mm. While the eye relief prescription of an Ortho does offer a bit more eye relief at a given focal length, many of the most hallowed "high power" designs available have had miserably short eye relief - Pentax XO, Pentax XP, TMB Supermono, Brandon, etc.




My XO 5, BGO 6 and Brandon 6 all feel comfy cozy compared to the 6mm Plossls I've tried. Ouch! My XO 2.5 and XO 5 are very much more comfortable.


Mike


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: BillP]
      #6003965 - 08/02/13 09:13 PM

Bill,

Quote:

FWIW, if the TV 8mm (arguably the best symmetrical out there in that FL) were on par with other desings, like the AP-SPL or Brandon, then that would hold the spot in my stall. But it does not compare on-axis to either of those and is easily bested on-axis planetary on nights of good seeing and transparency. The TV 25mm Plossl similarly not close to the ZAO 25mm.




Come on, Bill! Don't you know that all "modern" eyepieces are equally sharp on-axis?? It's been proven on test benches looking at currency and during daytime tests viewing church steeples and what-not.


Mike


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Starman1
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: BillP]
      #6003966 - 08/02/13 09:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:

A lot of observers today, whether using refractors or reflectors, are using scopes of f/6.5 and shorter.
Without going into why that may be true, it brings up a point: a "planetary"
eyepiece not only has to control scatter on axis, but it should do a superb job of focusing the light at all wavelengths into as small a spot as possible.
If I read the book "Telescope Optics" correctly, at f/5, the Plossl concentrates the light into a smaller spot on axis and ten mm off axis, i.e. the center of the field.
At f/10, the comparison is essentially a dead heat.
At f/15, the Abbe design pulls away and is superior to the Plossl.




Don,

You really can't rely on these spot diagrams because if they contend Plossl, then it is not the modern use of the term which is Symmetrical. Further, everyone changes the designs from standard, so unless the book you are referencing knows the specific TV design as it is in its production incarnation (not the patent), and the specific ZAO design (as example), then they are too far off IMO to extrapolate or interpolate. All-in-all I take most spot diagrams with a big grain of salt as they are not privvy to modern designs prescriptions. FWIW, if the TV 8mm (arguably the best symmetrical out there in that FL) were on par with other desings, like the AP-SPL or Brandon, then that would hold the spot in my stall. But it does not compare on-axis to either of those and is easily bested on-axis planetary on nights of good seeing and transparency. The TV 25mm Plossl similarly not close to the ZAO 25mm.

Plossls are great eyepieces and have great attributes, but for on-axis purity they do not come close to what a well executed Abbe consistently shows. Now when we talk Symmetrical vs Plossls (i.e., TV vs Clave), I have compared the two and while on-axis the TV was close, the Clave held a little more apparent contrast so the planetary picture was improved. Off-axis of course the TV took the prize...but then that didn't matter for me as the on-axis sweet spot was all that mattered (i.e., planetary). If I had to give a prize to the ENTIRE FOV then I would mostly agree that a Plossl puts up a better corrected field all around (when it made non-orthoscopic, as most are). However, the on-axis...Abbe always takes the prize (so far).

btw - I do like a leather grip on my telescope whip as it provides lots more fine control...especially in tense situations.



Bill,
The Plossl design shown in the chart of lens info is a symmetrical, so likely to be the TeleVue design.
Interestingly, I had a complete set of Claves (except the shortest) in the late '70s and sold them to replace them with Plossls I thought had superior transmission, less scattered light, and sharper images off-axis--the TeleVue Plossls. I also thought the Claves made the Moon appear somewhat yellow. I didn't detect any difference in sharpness at the time. I had a 4" f/15 Unitron then, and i suspect both were just about equal on axis at f/15.
FWIW, I also replaced the TeleVues later on (late '80s or early '90s, IIRC) with the Meade Series 4000 5-element "Super Plossls" (made by Kowa in Japan) because they were sharper and brighter. By then I was using f/5 and f/5.6 scopes. I used to wish I still had those, but no more.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Starman1]
      #6004102 - 08/02/13 11:09 PM

Quote:


Say what you will, compared to some more modern designs, debating the merits of Plossls vs. Abbe orthoscopics is a little like debating whether or not you like a leather grip on your buggy whip.




Fur lined buggy whips...............orthos and monocentrics are some of my favorite things.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6004834 - 08/03/13 01:22 PM

Quote:

I disagree. IMO & IME, there is an attribute of a planetary telescope that is more important than f/number or tracking.




There we just have to agree to disagree. As much as we all love to talk about eyepieces IME tracking is the biggest force-multiplier in the Dobsonian world. When you live in the Nudge-Nudge-Wait world you are not realizing the full potential of your mirror.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #6004877 - 08/03/13 02:06 PM

You learn to go to war with the army you have. IME & IMO, tracking is nice but not essential. I have two GEM mounts with tracking but hardly ever use them. For planet/lunar, I'd rather have a larger aperture without tracking than smaller aperture on a mount that tracks. In fact, I do have both of these options. I always choose the larger aperture without tracking for serious planetary observation. Of course, I can use the best eyepieces I have for either option.

Yes, we will have to agree to disagree.

Mike


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Scott99
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6005014 - 08/03/13 03:28 PM

Quote:

In other words, garden variety Tani Abbe Orthos have about as much in common with ZAOs as a McDonalds Big Mac has with a Ruths Chris filet mignon; there's both beef...and that's about all you can say as the similarities end at species.




not sure about the volanco tops, but my comparison between the ZAO-I 16mm and the UO HD 18mm showed them to have barely any difference in my 6-inch apo. The two series seem very similar to me in design and performance.

re: TV Plossl, actually symmetricals, I've been told that TV made a wee sacrifice at the center of the field vs. Claves in order to improve edge sharpness, which is very good. Claves definitely have a drop-off at the edge, even at f/15.

In the days of yore (70's-80's), orthos were considered the sharpest for planetary (at the center) and Plossls were actually considered wider-field eyepieces that were not quite as good as orthos for planets in the center. (if you wanted to get really wild with the wide-field you'd go to a Konig or Erfle).

Nowadays Plossls are considered "minimum glass" next to the behemoth wide-fields and nearly equivalent to orthos, but the eyepieces' design is quite different. I still like the extra 10 degrees that a Plossl provides over an ortho for DSO viewing. or even psuedo-plossls like Sterling and TV work really well for me.

I think it wasn't just f/4.5 dobs that killed off orthos & plossl for most people, it was light pollution as well. Getting the same FOV at higher power darkens the sky. at f/8 and under dark sky sites the plossls are still working well for me, in that setting I can see the contrast improvment vs. the 8 element wide fields.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Aquarist]
      #6005106 - 08/03/13 04:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:

interesting, $153 and up for the longer ones, I wonder if these are minimum allowed prices or if other vendors will go lower.




Takahashi is fair traded pricing.




It looks like these prices are going to stick. It is the same discount off list price that vendors are charging for the LE's.

Texas Nautical has posted them on their page:

https://www.landseaskyco.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=21_112...


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6005296 - 08/03/13 08:04 PM

Quote:

"Their reputation is too well established and their premium incarnations, like the ZAOs, are without peer in other designs."

But Bill, the reason for the ZAOs' uberness isn't really the Abbe design, but rather the execution. You could take pretty much any design and apply the same care in polish, coating selection and fabrication and make a tough to beat on-axis eyepiece.




I would take the UO HDs any day over the best Plossls out there. The design (and its incarnations) simply excels at planetary. Now if some vendor had the *fortitude* to execute a Plossl as exactingly as ZAO did their Abbes, then perhaps there would be some competition for Top Planetary Shot design. The popular wisdom always has been and continues to be (with good reason) that an Abbe is where to look when planetary is the primary pursuit on one's mind. If Plossls were so obviously better, then people would not be clammoring for the Volcano and HD Orthos to return. The reason they have returned...is that they are great sellers!


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6005633 - 08/04/13 12:09 AM

Quote:

You learn to go to war with the army you have.




When war is forced upon you, yes.

But if you have time you can build the army you need to change the world as demonstrated by the 40th president.

Quote:

In fact, I do have both of these options.




For whatever reason you would seem to be missing the Third Way - putting tracking on the larger scope. It will change your world.


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leonard
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #6005841 - 08/04/13 04:12 AM

Hello ,


>>>>>> But if you have time you can build the army you need to change the world as demonstrated by the 40th president. <<<<<<


Amen



For whatever reason you would seem to be missing the Third Way - putting tracking on the larger scope. It will change your world.

Yes it will , IMO . It did mine .


Leonard


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leonard
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: leonard]
      #6005853 - 08/04/13 04:34 AM

Hello ,


32 Brandon & 32 Tak Abbe would make an interesting line-up for a shoot out for faint objects and star cluster apperance in a longer FL refractor.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: leonard]
      #6005867 - 08/04/13 04:55 AM

Quote:

32 Brandon & 32 Tak Abbe would make an interesting line-up for a shoot out for faint objects and star cluster apperance in a longer FL refractor.




You could include these:

http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p1429_SuperView-32m...

I have the 40mm version and it's a very sharp, contrasty eyepiece, especially in my binoviewer, where I use it when the seeing conditions are poor or I just need the lowest possible magnification. It's superb for looking at faculae with the binoviewer on my 85mm Zeiss with INTES herschel wedge and polarization filter, better, in fact, than the 25mm Zeiss microscope eyepieces, because of the lower magnification. The adjustable eyeguards make it very comfortable to look through.

I am very excited about the new 32mm Takahashi abbes, but I am torn between them and the TS 32mm Superviews. Both seem to have advantages over the other.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #6005995 - 08/04/13 10:15 AM

Jeff & Leonard,

Quote:

For whatever reason you would seem to be missing the Third Way - putting tracking on the larger scope. It will change your world.




Eventually I intend to acquire a 14" Dob with tracking. But for now, I don't think it would be worthwhile to install a tracking mount on the 10". I don't want to put money and effort in that direction. That is not going to happen. It would be one more big gizmo to have to haul outside or to the dark site. I know several people who have an eq platform for their Dobs and they hardly ever bother to use the platform.

Besides, I've developed the ability to observe skillfully without tracking.

Mike


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6006011 - 08/04/13 10:47 AM

Thomas do you know the fov on the superview ep's? What is the design...modified plossl?
bc


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: bcuddihee]
      #6006031 - 08/04/13 11:05 AM

The Superview eyepieces are sold by many different companies. They are similar to an Erfle design. They have a 68 degree AFOV in some lengths, 60 degrees in some lengths, and a couple have AFOVs in the 40s because of the longer focal lengths.
I know GSO makes some, but this is an eyepiece design that has been so common over the last 20 years that I think they may be made by several Chinese makers, i.e. "in the public domain".


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: leonard]
      #6006201 - 08/04/13 03:25 PM

Quote:

32 Brandon & 32 Tak Abbe would make an interesting line-up for a shoot out for faint objects and star cluster apperance in a longer FL refractor.




Brandons have only FC coatings. In a contest for bagging faint objects, I think the Brandon 32 would not do well against a Tak Abbe 32 unless maybe the Tak has FC coatings, also. If the Tak has FMC coatings, the Brandon will not have a chance. Brandons do not have superior light transmission. The Sterling Plossls with their FMC coatings do better for faint objects than the Brandons. The XW's also have better light transmission than Brandons.

Now as for appearance of star clusters, that's another matter. The Brandons might win out for best presentation, depending on the expectations of the observer.

Mike


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6006358 - 08/04/13 05:57 PM

Hello Mike ,


Its a shame Sterling does not have a 32mm but thats life . I have the 12mm sterling and like it very much.
I forgot about the Tele Vue 32 plossl it would fit in here . IMO low power eyepieces are all about the best light transmission and pin point stars across the field of view no matter how large or small that FOV is ,in the scope its to be used in.
BTW , I only use my platform when going after Jupter or Saturn , never for deep sky as like you,I see no need for it. It lets me relax and view with only small corrections now and then .
I hope these Tak Abbe's turn out to be as good as the HD U.O. eyepiece or hopefully better as I would like to purchase the 32mm myself .

Leonard


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: leonard]
      #6006619 - 08/04/13 09:03 PM

Leonard,

Sterling doesn't have a 32mm, but they come close, since there is a 30mm Sterling Plossl in 2" format. I have the Sterling 12.5, 17, 20 and 25. They are in my deep sky case along with the Delo's, XW's and ES. I used to have Brandons in the case, but then I thought it might be best to have only FMC coated eyepieces for deep sky. So now I leave the Brandons at home for planets, lunar, doubles and the brighter DSO.

I haven't read anything about the coatings for the Tak Abbe Orthos. Some think that simpler coatings - such as on the Brandons - are actually better for planet observation. My personal opinion is still unsettled on that question. But I am confident that modern FMC coatings would be better for the Tak's if they are used for deep sky, where superior light transmission is important.

Mike


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6007217 - 08/05/13 08:37 AM

According to the Anacortes website, the new Tak Abbe Orthos are FMC (fully multicoated). So we can expect the Taks to trounce the Brandons in a contest for superior light transmission.

Takahashi 32mm Abbe Eyepiece 1.25"

Quote:

Each of the four elements is fully multi coated for maximum light transmission which significantly affects the contrast positively.




Mike


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: bcuddihee]
      #6008801 - 08/06/13 04:27 AM

Quote:

Thomas do you know the fov on the superview ep's? What is the design...modified plossl?




Hi bc

There are several different Superviews, so there's likely more than one design. The ones I have are 1.25" 40mm's, with just 43° AFOV. They seem to be normal plössls, but I haven't taken them apart to check. There's also a 32mm 1.25" with 50°, which is probably also a plössl.

Moving up to 2", there's a 42mm and a 30mm, but now with 60° and 68° AFOV, respectively. These seem to be an Erfle design or a variant thereof.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: edif300]
      #6009681 - 08/06/13 03:10 PM

Ancortes has the Tak Abbes in new product announcement in Astromart. They'll be $153 plus shipping with the 9, 18 and 32 mid August the rest in September. They say these will be a revival of the older Tak orthos. Does anyone know how good those are? Davuid

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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6009686 - 08/06/13 03:17 PM

Sure, but the magic of any eyepiece isn't transmission. The eye can't detect less than a 10% delta in throughput at peak visual wavelength, all else being equal. The magic of an eyepiece is in ensuring that as much of the transmitted light as possible winds up exactly where it is supposed to be in the focused image. That's where things like polish quality and baffling make a difference, and with respect to baffling Takahashi hasn't always been particularly careful. The 5mm LE in particular was a poor design in this regard. In addition, the Takahashi eyepieces I've owned (sets of MC Orthos and LEs) haven't been outstanding performers, but rather mid-pack performers on par with lower cost eyepieces like Televue Plossl and Celestron Ultimas. At least these aren't over-the-top in price so trying them out won't represent much risk even if they do turn out to be ordinary performers.

Regards,

Jim


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6009803 - 08/06/13 04:08 PM

Quote:

The eye can't detect less than a 10% delta in throughput at peak visual wavelength, all else being equal.




On the Moon and planets, I think you're correct, but I don't think this is true on threshold deep-sky objects, the ones where you really need to work to see them.

I'll run some experiments with aperture stops, once it gets dark and clear around here and I don't have to get up to work very early next morning.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #6010045 - 08/06/13 06:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The eye can't detect less than a 10% delta in throughput at peak visual wavelength, all else being equal.




On the Moon and planets, I think you're correct, but I don't think this is true on threshold deep-sky objects, the ones where you really need to work to see them.

I'll run some experiments with aperture stops, once it gets dark and clear around here and I don't have to get up to work very early next morning.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark



Thomas,
We can beat this dead horse to death again, but here are some pertinent facts:
--the eye's response is logarithmic--a ten times increase in measured brightness is seen as a doubling in perceived brightness.
--a ten percent difference in brightness, which is 0.1 magnitude, is *just* visible in a lab setting using two identical surfaces illuminated to a difference of varying brightnesses.
--the AAVSO receives hundreds of thousands of variable star observations and they find there is a "scatter" of accuracy, even from the most experienced observers, at viewing brightness differences of roughly 0.1 magnitude.

So there is ample evidence to suggest that a brightness difference of less than 10% is going to yield experimental results that do not differ from random chance.

So let's talk threshold. How is a threshold of visibility perceived? Well, it turns out it's not a visible/invisible dichotomy, it's visible 100% of the time, visible 50% of the time, etc. A true threshold is often referred to as "visible 10% of the time with averted vision" (see the work of Bradley Schaefer), which means "invisible 90% of the time with averted vision".
In fact, the sliding degree of visibility would make a cutoff point very very hard to determine.

I've found that the sky varies in transparency, and the variation exceeds, by a large margin, the small degree of separation between invisible and visible 10% of the time with averted vision that you are dealing with when you talk about light transmission. With the same scope, I have seen wide variations from night to night in the degree of visibility of certain features of extended objects, and with the same eyepieces.

Plus, huge differences in contrast exist between scopes that can have a distinct bearing on the visibility of said differences.

At best, we are probably talking about the difference between seeing something 30% of the time with averted vision versus 10% of the time with averted vision. Good luck with that. First you have to actually find a threshold object or feature, and that won't be easy. One suggestion might be the galaxy cluster Abell 2151 in Hercules. There are a vast number of galaxies in that group and they vary significantly in magnitude.
Chances are, if you use a map to guide you to the galaxies in the cluster, that you might find one that meets the criterion of being a "threshold" object. Then, you could begin to compare different eyepieces on that threshold object.
Of course, the object would have to be at the same altitude for every eyepiece in order to provide similar extinction.
And it would have to be on the same night, at the same site, or the comparisons could be skewed by transparency changes. Of course, that presumes there wouldn't be momentary fluctuations in transparency during the test, so absolutely no clouds, dust, smog, or water vapor could be allowed in the atmosphere.

I don't think you will be able to get reliable, repeatable, data. It certainly would be worth a try. The hard part will be selecting targets.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Starman1]
      #6010105 - 08/06/13 06:55 PM

If I already have the LE's, what's the advantage of the Tak Abbe's?

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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: The Ardent]
      #6010169 - 08/06/13 07:30 PM

Tak needs your money...


-Chuck


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6010187 - 08/06/13 07:38 PM

Jim,

Quote:

Sure, but the magic of any eyepiece isn't transmission. The eye can't detect less than a 10% delta in throughput at peak visual wavelength, all else being equal. The magic of an eyepiece is in ensuring that as much of the transmitted light as possible winds up exactly where it is supposed to be in the focused image. That's where things like polish quality and baffling make a difference, and with respect to baffling Takahashi hasn't always been particularly careful. The 5mm LE in particular was a poor design in this regard. In addition, the Takahashi eyepieces I've owned (sets of MC Orthos and LEs) haven't been outstanding performers, but rather mid-pack performers on par with lower cost eyepieces like Televue Plossl and Celestron Ultimas. At least these aren't over-the-top in price so trying them out won't represent much risk even if they do turn out to be ordinary performers.




I've never owned a Takahashi eyepiece or even used one. I own eight Brandons, including two bino pairs, and have used them often. They do have a certain magic, especially when binoviewing planets or the Moon.

But I've seen for myself that the Brandons' light transmission is not the best. They were bested by Sterling Plossls, as well as by XW's. I would not put a Brandon in the focuser if I'm trying to bag a faint fuzzy toward the LM of my scope. Sometimes the magic works and sometimes it doesn't.

Mike


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6010362 - 08/06/13 09:25 PM

I believe all these discussions regarding the new Tak Abbe's are a bit premature and verging on rank speculation until....

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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: dscarpa]
      #6010402 - 08/06/13 09:52 PM

Quote:

Ancortes has the Tak Abbes in new product announcement in Astromart. They'll be $153 plus shipping with the 9, 18 and 32 mid August the rest in September. They say these will be a revival of the older Tak orthos. Does anyone know how good those are? Davuid




I agree with Jim Barnett. I owned the complete set of MC orthos, they weren't any better than the old UO VT orthos. At $150 ea, the new Tak ortthos better have something special going on, because there's a lot of competition out there - both new and used. I'd wait until the reviews are in before investing, or at most, just try one before buying a set.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Starman1]
      #6010941 - 08/07/13 07:28 AM

Quote:

--the eye's response is logarithmic--a ten times increase in measured brightness is seen as a doubling in perceived brightness.




Don,

Why should this be mathematically linked to the arbitrary fact that we earthlings are using the decimal system?
Then for the LGMs in M31 with a total of twelve fingers and toes each, a twelve times increase in measured brightness will have the same doubling effect?
And what about those creatures on a certain planet in M101 with an individual total of six fingers and toes only, which has caused them to making use of the hexal system???
Hence, I think you must be wrong on this one...

OTOH, if we based that above mentioned doubling on the (universally "existent") natural logarithm with e=2.71828... as its basis => could this bring us a bit closer to the universal function of increasing perceived brightness in dependence on measured brightness? => Can anybody out there actually provide a mathematically or physically well founded opinion on this?

Chris


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Starman1]
      #6010986 - 08/07/13 08:13 AM

Quote:



So let's talk threshold. How is a threshold of visibility perceived? Well, it turns out it's not a visible/invisible dichotomy, it's visible 100% of the time, visible 50% of the time, etc. A true threshold is often referred to as "visible 10% of the time with averted vision" (see the work of Bradley Schaefer), which means "invisible 90% of the time with averted vision".
In fact, the sliding degree of visibility would make a cutoff point very very hard to determine.

I've found that the sky varies in transparency, and the variation exceeds, by a large margin, the small degree of separation between invisible and visible 10% of the time with averted vision that you are dealing with when you talk about light transmission. With the same scope, I have seen wide variations from night to night in the degree of visibility of certain features of extended objects, and with the same eyepieces.

At best, we are probably talking about the difference between seeing something 30% of the time with averted vision versus 10% of the time with averted vision. Good luck with that. First you have to actually find a threshold object or feature, and that won't be easy. One suggestion might be the galaxy cluster Abell 2151 in Hercules. There are a vast number of galaxies in that group and they vary significantly in magnitude.
Chances are, if you use a map to guide you to the galaxies in the cluster, that you might find one that meets the criterion of being a "threshold" object. Then, you could begin to compare different eyepieces on that threshold object.
Of course, the object would have to be at the same altitude for every eyepiece in order to provide similar extinction.
And it would have to be on the same night, at the same site, or the comparisons could be skewed by transparency changes. Of course, that presumes there wouldn't be momentary fluctuations in transparency during the test, so absolutely no clouds, dust, smog, or water vapor could be allowed in the atmosphere.

I don't think you will be able to get reliable, repeatable, data. It certainly would be worth a try. The hard part will be selecting targets.




Don, I think that you are right. There is definitely and "enhancement" at the threshold as Thomas and you are mentioning due to statistical fluctuations of incoming light. But it would be hard to actually see it.

I estimated that ten percent in telescope/eyepiece transmission could translate to about 50% change in time needed to spend by eyepiece in order to give the object a chance to pass the threshold (if the detection is defined as 10% of time above threshold). There are people that operate even lower (for example at 5% time threshold, the difference increase to about 70% - but still much smaller than factor of 3 in your estimate - change from 10% to 30%). For me it is hard to say if that would be detectable at the eyepiece, I also doubt because, as you stated, the conditions during night are changing probably more. But what can be done, instead of finding the right values of the threshold, is how the difficulty of seeing near-to-threshold object changes through 0.95D aperture mask. This would be too valuable and may be easier to do, since it does not require so much time as finding real change in threshold.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Starman1]
      #6011219 - 08/07/13 10:45 AM

Quote:

So there is ample evidence to suggest that a brightness difference of less than 10% is going to yield experimental results that do not differ from random chance.




And to beat the dead horse more... Translated, "ample evidence to suggest" means "I hypothesize", which of course does not mean truth, fact, or anything of the sort. The various controlled experiments which yield the 10% approximation are completely different from a threshold observation case and are not extensible at all to this scenario, so not applicable since those studies (the ones I have read anyway) do not model the threshold observation capability. In one study related to threshold, the human eye can register as little as a single photon, but getting it through to the perception system requires around 9 photons.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Fomalhaut]
      #6011311 - 08/07/13 11:47 AM

Quote:

Quote:

--the eye's response is logarithmic--a ten times increase in measured brightness is seen as a doubling in perceived brightness.




Don,

Why should this be mathematically linked to the arbitrary fact that we earthlings are using the decimal system?
Then for the LGMs in M31 with a total of twelve fingers and toes each, a twelve times increase in measured brightness will have the same doubling effect?
And what about those creatures on a certain planet in M101 with an individual total of six fingers and toes only, which has caused them to making use of the hexal system???
Hence, I think you must be wrong on this one...

OTOH, if we based that above mentioned doubling on the (universally "existent") natural logarithm with e=2.71828... as its basis => could this bring us a bit closer to the universal function of increasing perceived brightness in dependence on measured brightness? => Can anybody out there actually provide a mathematically or physically well founded opinion on this?

Chris



It wasn't meant to be accurate, merely an example of a spread between the response of the eye in terms of perceived brightness and the increase in lumens.
It's more likely to be similar to how we perceive sound.
The exact log of the response of our eye I don't know, but its veracity is well known, which is why we have the ability to perceive light levels over a trillion-to-one range without damage to the eye.
How it will relate to the magnitude scale, itself a logarithmic scale, I also don't know.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Starman1]
      #6011360 - 08/07/13 12:10 PM

Log 2.512?

http://www.stargazing.net/david/constel/magnitude.html

-Chuck


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: edif300]
      #6011410 - 08/07/13 12:32 PM

Thanks for the info Jim. Think I'll stick with my 18 BCO and 9 Kasai HC for now. David

Edited by dscarpa (08/07/13 12:33 PM)


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: BillP]
      #6011438 - 08/07/13 12:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

So there is ample evidence to suggest that a brightness difference of less than 10% is going to yield experimental results that do not differ from random chance.




And to beat the dead horse more... Translated, "ample evidence to suggest" means "I hypothesize", which of course does not mean truth, fact, or anything of the sort. The various controlled experiments which yield the 10% approximation are completely different from a threshold observation case and are not extensible at all to this scenario, so not applicable since those studies (the ones I have read anyway) do not model the threshold observation capability. In one study related to threshold, the human eye can register as little as a single photon, but getting it through to the perception system requires around 9 photons.




There are, in the retina, random firings of nerves that result in apparent points of light being visible.

The retina, under severely reduced light input, not only loses its resolution, but also the reliability of seeing a light input that is real. I haven't read the tests wherein the response of the retina to light can be measured to be a mere handful of photons (one article I read said 150 photons, but the principle is the same), but I've had long conversations with an optometrist friend who is very interested in vision and the experiments regarding vision. He can talk for hours (and has) about the visual apparatus and how it works chemically. He says the tests with peripheral vision detectability of light (off and on) gets unreliable when the lights get fainter than a certain brightness, resembling random chance of being correct at fairly high levels of brightness. partially due to the low resolution of the peripheral vision and the "desire to see something" in the eye/brain combination. That last comment got me thinking about threshold observations and their repeatable natures.

The 10% brightness differences to which I was referring were studies done in low light where the people had, probably, mesopic vision. The only studies I've read that were fully scotopic dealt with spurious visibility of red and green and what happened in the brain to introduce the spurious colors.

But when you take into account:
--AAVSO reports on reliability of observations
--lab studies on perception of brightness difference
I would say we do have ample evidence to suggest that 10% brightness difference might be a statistically relevant minimum for detection of brightness difference.

That may not hold true for an individual (I would be surprised if there was not a spread of accuracy around that point), and how it relates to seeing a brightness difference at the threshold of vision is probably, I admit, an extrapolation that is dangerous to make. Plus, the random firings of retinal cells might make detection of a stellar object unreliable.

You don't really faint fuzzies observe very long before you realize that you start to see things that may or may not be there. [In my own case, there are either hundreds of thousands of objects *just* beyond the reach of my vision or my eyes tend to fill in the blanks when looking for objects that are threshold objects. More likely the latter, I think.]

But, we are talking the reliability of the threshold detection of anything that is not consistently visible. And the way the eye works means that repeatability is likely to diminish the fainter the threshold. The "sliding scale of visibility" at the edge of vision, for stellar objects, covers a fairly wide range. Schaefer's work suggests a difference of a small percentage of visibility may represent the better part of a full magnitude.
For stellar objects. For extended objects? Who knows?

And what is a truly threshold observation?
I've seen Barnard's loop in Orion and the Veil nebula, through filters, using my naked eye. They were consistently visible, not only 10% of the time with averted vision, but 100% of the time with direct vision, yet such observations are written about as indicative of threshold observations. Obviously not, I'd say.

If you look at the sizes of extended objects at, say, the magnitude 22 isophote versus the magnitude 25 isophote, it is obvious that the edges of many deep sky objects are only determined by setting an arbitrary cutoff of magnitude. More revealing, I think, is the range of magnitudes
covered by the edges of extended objects. Brightness gradients have a lot to do with visibility. Which is why determining what is a threshold object to even test vision in the field is going to be very difficult. What if one observer sees the core 10% of the time, and another observer sees the core a larger percentage of the time and the outer edges of the object 10% of the time? Could there be a range in detection covering several magnitudes when we are talking true threshold observations?

If so, we aren't talking 10% differences here at all, but much larger figures. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that though we can detect brightness differences of 10%, plus or minus, that the differences we are really talking about as threshold observations cover much larger percentage changes in lumens.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: dscarpa]
      #6011444 - 08/07/13 12:50 PM

Surface polish and coating quality will determine the scatter.
that will be the only real difference. That's where the Brandons, Clave's and Zeiss Abbe's are so good. My old Clave' 12mm had so little scattering. I didn't like the edge of field much at F6 in that one though.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Starman1]
      #6011497 - 08/07/13 01:18 PM

Hi Don

Many interesting points to take into consideration! It seems I will need to do what I do best: Experiment with my telescope! Whether those experiments are useful for anything other than for my amusement is questionable, but I'll do it anyway. I'll make some masks that cover various percentages of the objective and observe some objects and see what I can see or not.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: bremms]
      #6011552 - 08/07/13 01:51 PM

Quote:

Surface polish and coating quality will determine the scatter.
that will be the only real difference. That's where the Brandons, Clave's and Zeiss Abbe's are so good. My old Clave' 12mm had so little scattering. I didn't like the edge of field much at F6 in that one though.




The only real difference when observing which objects? Planet surface features can probably do just as well if not better with simple FC coatings such as on the Brandons. Dim nebulae and galaxies, not so much. For dim objects, decent FMC will trump simpler coatings. My simple coating eyepieces no longer go with me to the dark site.

Mike


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #6011577 - 08/07/13 02:10 PM

Thomas,

Quote:

Many interesting points to take into consideration! It seems I will need to do what I do best: Experiment with my telescope! Whether those experiments are useful for anything other than for my amusement is questionable, but I'll do it anyway. I'll make some masks that cover various percentages of the objective and observe some objects and see what I can see or not.




What will stopping down the objective show? That the observer will be able to see fainter objects through larger aperture? I can make that prediction right now!

I think a more pertinent experiment would be to work on the other end of the instrument. Compare the perceived light transmission when observing threshold objects (however defined) through eyepieces that differ in level of coatings and/or number of elements.

Mike


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Starman1]
      #6011601 - 08/07/13 02:26 PM

Quote:

And what is a truly threshold observation?
I've seen Barnard's loop in Orion and the Veil nebula, through filters, using my naked eye. They were consistently visible, not only 10% of the time with averted vision, but 100% of the time with direct vision, yet such observations are written about as indicative of threshold observations. Obviously not, I'd say.




Whether an object is threshold or not will depend on the darkness of the site (among other factors). I've tried to see Barnard's Loop with my naked eye through a Lumicon H-Beta filter at my yellow zone site. It was definitely one of those objects which I'd have to say I might have seen, but I'm just not sure. I think that at this site, Barnard's Loop was either a threshold object or an impossible object. I'll have to wait for a very transparent night to determine that.

On the other hand, IME the Horsehead is a threshold object at my site. I need a night of excellent seeing to tease out the Horsehead with my 10" Dob at the yellow zone site. On such a night I can determine the comparative light transmission of eyepieces by seeing how well they pull the Horsehead out of the background. The eyepieces with FMC seem to do better than those with simpler coatings.

Mike


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: JustaBoy]
      #6011656 - 08/07/13 02:59 PM

Quote:

Log 2.512?

http://www.stargazing.net/david/constel/magnitude.html

-Chuck




Chuck,

2.512x more light was defined to be one stellar magnitude difference in order to simplify calculations with magnitudes:
100^(1/5) = 2.512 <=> 2.512^5 = 100
<=> 5 magnitudes difference means 100x more (or less) light

<=> 1st magnitude corresponds to 100x more light (measured photometrically) than 6th magnitude or 10'000x more than 11th magnitude. - This is extremely convenient for calculations, but OTOH here we have it again, our non-universal decimal system...

Chris


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6011783 - 08/07/13 04:18 PM

Quote:

What will stopping down the objective show?




This will allow me to precisely vary the used surface area of the objective, thus allowing me to try observing various objects with either 100% throughput (of the maximum possible, of course) and then, by using a carefully calculated aperture stop, use only 90%, or 80% or whatever, without introducing any other variables, since I will be using the same eyepiece, diagonal, scope, etc. The exit pupil will be getting smaller, and thus relative magnification higher, but it's the only way I can precisely vary the light throughput with the equipment available.

I already know that some of my eyepieces are better than others at revealing the faintest possible objects, but is that due to having very few elements, or something else? Can we really see a 10% brigthness difference on threshold objects, making it worthwile to go for minimal-glass eyepieces for that kind of target, or should we all insist on supreme polish on our eyepieces instead, since it's almost impossible to tell the difference between a well-polished and coated multi-glass eyepiece and a well-polished minimal-glass eyepiece? (the difference in light transmission between a multicoated multi-glass eyepiece and a minimal-glass one is much less than 10%, yet I can see a difference between my 9mm ES100 and my best 9mm ortho. I can NOT however, see a difference between my 9mm UO and my 9mm ES100!).

I do think it's possible to reliably detect a 10% difference in transmission, but I'll find out for sure, once I've done some experiments. It'll probably take a month or two, so don't all hold your breath.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6011839 - 08/07/13 04:49 PM

Quote:


On the other hand, IME the Horsehead is a threshold object at my site. I need a night of excellent seeing to tease out the Horsehead with my 10" Dob at the yellow zone site. On such a night I can determine the comparative light transmission of eyepieces by seeing how well they pull the Horsehead out of the background. The eyepieces with FMC seem to do better than those with simpler coatings.

Mike



Does that mean one eyepiece will see it 10% of the time and another 30% of the time, both with averted vision?
Or visible with direct vision?
Or do you mean it's just fainter in one than the other but still visible?

I've been seeing, recently, that objects I could not find, and which were not visible in my scope, became suddenly visible once I went over to a much larger scope (looking at the same object, of course), saw it, and returned to my scope to take a look for it.
It went from a "can't see it" object to "now I can see it" merely by seeing it in the larger scope.

This goes back to the 18th and 19th Centuries, when many astronomers noted that it always took a larger aperture to discover something than it took to observe it after it was discovered. I think that once you know something is there, you will often see it if it is within the realm of seeing in the aperture.

That even muddies the idea of "threshold" even more.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6011956 - 08/07/13 05:49 PM

Quote:

Jeff & Leonard,

Quote:

For whatever reason you would seem to be missing the Third Way - putting tracking on the larger scope. It will change your world.




Eventually I intend to acquire a 14" Dob with tracking. But for now, I don't think it would be worthwhile to install a tracking mount on the 10". I don't want to put money and effort in that direction. That is not going to happen. It would be one more big gizmo to have to haul outside or to the dark site. I know several people who have an eq platform for their Dobs and they hardly ever bother to use the platform.

Besides, I've developed the ability to observe skillfully without tracking.

Mike




I was observing a small globular the other night with a 30 degree TMB supermono at 400x, and I was really glad that I had the equatorial table setup. I agree it is an extra hassle at times.
Mike


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Starman1]
      #6012179 - 08/07/13 07:34 PM


>>> It went from a "can't see it" object to "now I can see it" merely by seeing it in the larger scope. <<<<<

This is a good point Don .


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Starman1]
      #6012305 - 08/07/13 08:36 PM

Quote:

Does that mean one eyepiece will see it 10% of the time and another 30% of the time, both with averted vision?
Or visible with direct vision?
Or do you mean it's just fainter in one than the other but still visible?




In this case, I mean that an object that is barely visible at all is more easily visible in some eyepieces than in others. And by "more easily visible," I mean with more contrast between B33 and IC 434, and with more structure visible. This was during a night of excellent transparency. On average nights, I could not tease out the Horsehead in any of the eyepieces. This is why I call the Horsehead a threshold object for my yellow zone dark site.

Before observing with the next eyepiece, I would move back to Zeta Orionis, in order to bring my dark adaptation back to a baseline. Then I'd move Zeta out of the FOV before letting myself dark adapt deeper again with the current eyepiece in the focuser. This protocol worked very well with the Horsehead. The differences among the views in the various eyepieces were obvious to my eyes. And as with all dim objects, I observed both directly and with averted vision for each eyepiece.

As long as what I'm doing has effects that are repeatable during the same observing session, I'm confident in the results. In fact, confident enough to relegate my Brandons to the home set and move my Sterlings to the dark site case.

Mike


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #6012342 - 08/07/13 08:50 PM

Quote:

I already know that some of my eyepieces are better than others at revealing the faintest possible objects, but is that due to having very few elements, or something else? Can we really see a 10% brigthness difference on threshold objects, making it worthwile to go for minimal-glass eyepieces for that kind of target, or should we all insist on supreme polish on our eyepieces instead, since it's almost impossible to tell the difference between a well-polished and coated multi-glass eyepiece and a well-polished minimal-glass eyepiece? (the difference in light transmission between a multicoated multi-glass eyepiece and a minimal-glass one is much less than 10%, yet I can see a difference between my 9mm ES100 and my best 9mm ortho. I can NOT however, see a difference between my 9mm UO and my 9mm ES100!).

I do think it's possible to reliably detect a 10% difference in transmission, but I'll find out for sure, once I've done some experiments. It'll probably take a month or two, so don't all hold your breath.




Yes, now I understand why you want to experiment with the aperture masks. I'm curious, too, about what you will find.

But when it comes to comparing eyepieces, I believe it's possible to over-think things. Only 10% difference in brightness, or is it more? Simple glass or complex? MC, FC or FMC? The proof is in the pudding. IME, coatings are an important factor in comparative light transmission among eyepieces. I've either sold all my simple coating eyepieces or I keep them home to observe planets and the Moon. I no longer use them for deep sky.

Mike


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6012763 - 08/08/13 12:17 AM

Quote:

Does that mean one eyepiece will see it 10% of the time and another 30% of the time, both with averted vision?
Or visible with direct vision?
Or do you mean it's just fainter in one than the other but still visible?

I've been seeing, recently, that objects I could not find, and which were not visible in my scope, became suddenly visible once I went over to a much larger scope (looking at the same object, of course), saw it, and returned to my scope to take a look for it.
It went from a "can't see it" object to "now I can see it" merely by seeing it in the larger scope.

This goes back to the 18th and 19th Centuries, when many astronomers noted that it always took a larger aperture to discover something than it took to observe it after it was discovered. I think that once you know something is there, you will often see it if it is within the realm of seeing in the aperture.

That even muddies the idea of "threshold" even more.

--------------------
Don Pensack




Same here Don!

I was looking for NGC-891 in Andromeda and it was on the threshold of visibility in my 10" and I wasn't sure if it was there, but I swore I was seeing it. I then went over to my friend Tony's, (Tank here on CN), 16" and it was really obvious. I then went back to my scope and was seeing it more!!!


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #6012976 - 08/08/13 07:12 AM

Markus & Don,

I've never experienced not being able to see an object in a smaller aperture, seeing it in a larger aperture, then going back to the smaller one and suddenly seeing it. I don't doubt that it happens. It just hasn't happened to me.

I wonder why this occurs? Does it have to do with having a better idea of the exact location of the object among the background stars after seeing the object in a larger aperture? Or maybe it's due to seeing the orientation, size and structure of the object and knowing what to look for in the smaller aperture? All of this is available visually when I'm using SkySafari Pro on my Android tablet.

Mike


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6013342 - 08/08/13 10:34 AM

I think it has to do with the psychological part of what is a threshold observation. The eye sees what the eye sees, but it's whether the brain sees it that counts. Very subtle changes in brightness become more obvious with experience--that we know. An experienced observer can see more, and deeper, than an inexperienced observer. Why would that be? Because being able to see very subtle and faint details requires a training of the eye and brain to see it.
When you observe the object in the larger scope, what was subtle becomes less so--the threshold has changed. When you see what it looks like, where it is, and where the details are placed, and you return to the small scope, those details, though fainter, are now seen because the observer has a memory of how it looks and where the details are.
Of course, now they're a lot fainter, and nearer the threshold, and more subtle, and harder to see.

Which brings up a point: how do you determine the actual limit of your scope? Especially for things that may be slightly below the contrast threshold for that aperture in those conditions. It is a sliding limit, obviously, and varies from night to night and hour to hour and there are many aspects to determining that limit. I think prior experience is just one of the things that helps set the threshold.

Schaefer determined several more:
--altitude of object
--magnitude of object
--cleanliness of optics
--observer age
--observer experience
--size of scope
--magnification
--spectrum of object viewed
--sky brightness
--transmission of the scope/eyepiece
--extinction coefficient
--seeing conditions

And there are others:
--clarity of the interior of the observer's eye
--sensitivity of the observer's retina


And I'd add: familiarity with the object. Knowing what to look for and where makes parts and details visible that otherwise might be missed. This one is a psychological cause, but I've seen it work too many times to think it isn't real.
Does it temporarily lower the threshold for the observer, or is it permanent? That I can't say.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Starman1]
      #6013505 - 08/08/13 11:58 AM

Quote:

When you observe the object in the larger scope, what was subtle becomes less so--the threshold has changed. When you see what it looks like, where it is, and where the details are placed, and you return to the small scope, those details, though fainter, are now seen because the observer has a memory of how it looks and where the details are.
Of course, now they're a lot fainter, and nearer the threshold, and more subtle, and harder to see.




IME, the "larger scope to smaller scope" effect can be substituted by a good planetarium program such as SkySafari Pro on Android Tablet. SSP will show the background stars at the location of the object as well as visual cues such as apparent size, magnitude, and position angle. For many objects, a scaled image can be positioned at the location. These aids have helped me many times to locate and tease out a dim object from the background of an eyepiece's FOV. Access to a larger scope is not necessary.

Quote:

Which brings up a point: how do you determine the actual limit of your scope? Especially for things that may be slightly below the contrast threshold for that aperture in those conditions. It is a sliding limit, obviously, and varies from night to night and hour to hour and there are many aspects to determining that limit. I think prior experience is just one of the things that helps set the threshold.

Schaefer determined several more: ...




I think that as long as we are dealing with an experienced observer making comparisons of eyepieces with the same scope observing the same object under the same conditions, much of the splitting of hairs over threshold parameters is unnecessary. If the object looks very dim, accept that is toward the LM of the scope for that night and get on with the comparisons. An experienced observer should know without much quibbling over details. To even out the results in case of variations in transparency over time, multiple views can be made through each of the eyepieces.

Remember, the point of the exercise is to compare eyepieces in order to determine which have greater relative light transmission. (Or at least that is what I thought we were supposed to be doing.) As long as the object viewed is very dim, toward the threshold of visibilty of that scope and that observer for that night, does it really matter if it is a threshold object according to some predetermined - and perhaps artificially strict - criteria?

Mike


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6013699 - 08/08/13 01:21 PM

Quote:

Markus & Don,

I've never experienced not being able to see an object in a smaller aperture, seeing it in a larger aperture, then going back to the smaller one and suddenly seeing it. I don't doubt that it happens. It just hasn't happened to me.

I wonder why this occurs? Does it have to do with having a better idea of the exact location of the object among the background stars after seeing the object in a larger aperture? Or maybe it's due to seeing the orientation, size and structure of the object and knowing what to look for in the smaller aperture? All of this is available visually when I'm using SkySafari Pro on my Android tablet.

Mike




I saw the HorseHead for the first time this way. The guy set up next to me at the WSP showed it to me in his 22" scope - then suddenly I saw it easily (and unfiltered) in my 10". Collecting the signal is only half the battle - there is a whole lot of image processing going inside the organic computer. And learning is a big part of it. Consider for example your eye lens is not apochromatic. It's not achromatic. It is a singlet lens, and a very fast one at that! Yet, we do not see the world in violet fringes.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6013744 - 08/08/13 01:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

When you observe the object in the larger scope, what was subtle becomes less so--the threshold has changed. When you see what it looks like, where it is, and where the details are placed, and you return to the small scope, those details, though fainter, are now seen because the observer has a memory of how it looks and where the details are.
Of course, now they're a lot fainter, and nearer the threshold, and more subtle, and harder to see.




IME, the "larger scope to smaller scope" effect can be substituted by a good planetarium program such as SkySafari Pro on Android Tablet. SSP will show the background stars at the location of the object as well as visual cues such as apparent size, magnitude, and position angle. For many objects, a scaled image can be positioned at the location. These aids have helped me many times to locate and tease out a dim object from the background of an eyepiece's FOV. Access to a larger scope is not necessary.

Mike



Mike,
I'm sorry, I don't believe this is so.
The amount of light entering the eye, even with screens set very low and covered with red filters, will damage night vision to the point where threshold observations are impossible.
I understand that this is very popular these days, but I am certain amateurs are damaging their night visions to use them anywhere near the scope. I have black gaffer's tape over all red LEDs and even every light in my car that I cannot turn off without disconnecting the car's computer. Yet I see others using extremely bright flashlights and head lamps with 5 LEDs. Even red light can be bright enough to damage night vision.
I've dimmed my DSC screen down to a very low level, and it is very small and emits way less light than even a small cell phone, and yet threshold observations are impossible after glancing at the DSC screen for at least 15 minutes after.
I cover my eyes with my hands until I can see the light of my surroundings coming through the cracks around the edges of my hands. Even then, when I go to the eyepiece, enough peripheral light gets in to reduce the threshold somewhat. A glance at the sky damages night vision to a small degree.
Try looking down, at the ground, for a few minutes. Eventually, you will see pebbles and if you dropped a black eyepiece cap, you'd see it easily, even if you dropped it on a black ground cloth. Look up at the sky for a few seconds then look back down. Can't see anything now. The screen of a tablet is the same only much much worse and the recovery time a lot longer.
I now fully understand why astronomers of yore used black cloths over their heads.
What I don't understand is how they kept the eyepieces from fogging up.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Starman1]
      #6013886 - 08/08/13 02:42 PM

Quote:

Mike,
I'm sorry, I don't believe this is so.
The amount of light entering the eye, even with screens set very low and covered with red filters, will damage night vision to the point where threshold observations are impossible.
I understand that this is very popular these days, but I am certain amateurs are damaging their night visions to use them anywhere near the scope.




Anything can be taken to an extreme ... or not taken far enough. I don't see the point of looking for an object unless you have a method of determining its location against the background stars. I suppose the observer could go to the extreme of memorizing the object's location so no aid is necessary and no light is used. I've done that for most of the Messier and some other showcase objects. But for difficult objects, it's really important to have a precise location as a help, either on printed star charts or a tablet, at least for the first time the object is located and observed. (From what I hear, often goto and DSCs are only good up to a point, and then many observers resort to an atlas, either printed or electronic.)

In order to use these helpers, at least some amount of light is required. I set the light on my tablet as low as possible, set the SSP program on low and night vision, and then cover the screen with a sheet of Rubylinth and a sheet of AstroGizmo. That's dim enough for me to barely read the screen and still see B33 through my 10" Dob in a yellow zone. Enough is enough.

When I go to my dark site, I try to observe 20 to 30 objects I've never seen before. Most of these are dim objects, many very dim, I'm sure at least some are threshold objects. Without goto or DSCs, it would be impossible for me to do this unless I refer to SSP on my tablet. No way will I do without the tablet.

Unless the observer is content to look at objects for which they've memorized the locations, or to observe only a few objects throughout the night, it will be necessary to look at a printed atlas, tablet or at least the indicators on the goto or DSCs.

Often, IME, objects visible in the eyepiece - such as moderately bright stars and globs - are much more of a threat to my dark adaptation than the dim red light from the tablet. For instance, when I was viewing the Horsehead, Zeta Orionis was potentially more damaging to my dark adaptation than looking at SkySafari Pro.

Mike


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #6013904 - 08/08/13 02:51 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Markus & Don,

I've never experienced not being able to see an object in a smaller aperture, seeing it in a larger aperture, then going back to the smaller one and suddenly seeing it. I don't doubt that it happens. It just hasn't happened to me.

I wonder why this occurs? Does it have to do with having a better idea of the exact location of the object among the background stars after seeing the object in a larger aperture? Or maybe it's due to seeing the orientation, size and structure of the object and knowing what to look for in the smaller aperture? All of this is available visually when I'm using SkySafari Pro on my Android tablet.

Mike




I saw the HorseHead for the first time this way. The guy set up next to me at the WSP showed it to me in his 22" scope - then suddenly I saw it easily (and unfiltered) in my 10". Collecting the signal is only half the battle - there is a whole lot of image processing going inside the organic computer. And learning is a big part of it. Consider for example your eye lens is not apochromatic. It's not achromatic. It is a singlet lens, and a very fast one at that! Yet, we do not see the world in violet fringes.




The first time I saw the Horsehead through my 10" Dob I was alone at my dark site. It was a very transparent night. In order to get a better idea of the Horsehead's location and orientation in the FOV, I looked at various printed charts, as well as SkySafari Pro on my tablet. I looked at these aids as I positioned the telescope. I had a very dim red light for viewing the charts, and I was implementing my usual methods of keeping the tablet dim but still readable. What can I say? It worked.


Mike


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6014218 - 08/08/13 05:34 PM

To get a bit more on topic, I have noticed that Astronomics did not respond to this query, are they going to sell this new Tak eyepiece? I am looking for a new dealer.

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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: edif300]
      #6018224 - 08/10/13 08:38 PM

Quote:

Takahashi has announced today a new series of Abbe eyepieces in FL of 6, 9, 12.5, 18, 25 and 32mm. Four elements in two groups (three of them cemented).








Ok, I'll bite

Interesting discussion (as always) but it's time to pre-order and start planing a dark sky shoot-out. Hopefully it will arrive for CalStar in early October. CalStar - Lake San Antonio Light Pollution Map

I ordered the 9mm and will post a few pics when it arrives.

-Rick


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: SteveC]
      #6055782 - 08/31/13 10:24 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Takahashi has announced today a new series of Abbe eyepieces in FL of 6, 9, 12.5, 18, 25 and 32mm. Four elements in two groups (three of them cemented).






I hope they're much better than the .965 ortho eyepieces they marketed many years back.




I'm curious about this statement. If you're referring to SMC Orthos, what is it that you felt they fell short in? To each his own, but selling mine is one the few eyepiece decisions I regret to this day. I had a complete set of UO Orthos and Ultima Plossls at that time, and definitely could see an improvement with the Pentax models I had (which were the 6, 7, 9, & 12mm models IIRC).

As for the discussion about the 10% transmission threshold.. I had some 'now you see it, now you don't' experiences in that regard. At another time I was using TV Radians for my high mag observations (primarily for their ER). A fellow astronomer handed me a Tak 7.5 LE and said, "Try this". I pulled out the 8mm Radian and put in the Tak. Sold all my Radians starting the next day. I've experienced similar results with UO Konigs compared to a select few TV Panoptics.

All that leads to one question for the ocular gurus among us. Are transmission values in some TV lines really more than 10% less by comparison?

(FYI...not knocking TV in any way. There are a couple of TV models that will never leave my collection)


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #6055813 - 08/31/13 10:43 AM

Quote:

I saw the HorseHead for the first time this way. The guy set up next to me at the WSP showed it to me in his 22" scope - then suddenly I saw it easily (and unfiltered) in my 10". Collecting the signal is only half the battle - there is a whole lot of image processing going inside the organic computer. And learning is a big part of it. Consider for example your eye lens is not apochromatic. It's not achromatic. It is a singlet lens, and a very fast one at that! Yet, we do not see the world in violet fringes.




A minor correction to my Horsehead story. A bit off topic, but credit where credit is due.

The scope was the 20" f/5 Batscope owned by David Knowlton. A very nice gentlemen who happened to be set up next to me one year at the Winter Star Party, during the week he showed me quite a few southern targets in the Batscope.

The Batscope was quite memorable (for the views as well as the name and unique design) but over the years I couldn't recall the owner's name until I saw the scope up for sale on Astromart. Someone is going to get a wonderful scope in that deal.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: maknewtnut]
      #6056303 - 08/31/13 03:39 PM

Quote:


As for the discussion about the 10% transmission threshold.. I had some 'now you see it, now you don't' experiences in that regard. At another time I was using TV Radians for my high mag observations (primarily for their ER). A fellow astronomer handed me a Tak 7.5 LE and said, "Try this". I pulled out the 8mm Radian and put in the Tak. Sold all my Radians starting the next day. I've experienced similar results with UO Konigs compared to a select few TV Panoptics.

All that leads to one question for the ocular gurus among us. Are transmission values in some TV lines really more than 10% less by comparison?

(FYI...not knocking TV in any way. There are a couple of TV models that will never leave my collection)



No, in general.
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/attachments/3543229-Eyepiece%20transmi...
http://www.amateurastronomie.com/Astronomie/tips/tips3.htm
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/attachments/3489738-transmission.txt

Note especially the tests on the Radian and the Tak LE in the second test.

Now, one thing about TeleVue: they have always made running changes. As coating technology improved, they improved their coatings. They never advertised it, but, through the years, they have constantly gotten better (which is why you get 95-96% transmissions in Ethos and Delos today).
So when you read such tests, always wonder what generation of eyepiece was tested. The same may also be true of some other brands.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: maknewtnut]
      #6056346 - 08/31/13 04:16 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Takahashi has announced today a new series of Abbe eyepieces in FL of 6, 9, 12.5, 18, 25 and 32mm. Four elements in two groups (three of them cemented).






I hope they're much better than the .965 ortho eyepieces they marketed many years back.




I'm curious about this statement. If you're referring to SMC Orthos, what is it that you felt they fell short in? To each his own, but selling mine is one the few eyepiece decisions I regret to this day. I had a complete set of UO Orthos and Ultima Plossls at that time, and definitely could see an improvement with the Pentax models I had (which were the 6, 7, 9, & 12mm models IIRC).

As for the discussion about the 10% transmission threshold.. I had some 'now you see it, now you don't' experiences in that regard. At another time I was using TV Radians for my high mag observations (primarily for their ER). A fellow astronomer handed me a Tak 7.5 LE and said, "Try this". I pulled out the 8mm Radian and put in the Tak. Sold all my Radians starting the next day. I've experienced similar results with UO Konigs compared to a select few TV Panoptics.





Hi Mark,

I owned both Pentax SMC othos and Tak Hi Orthos. While I found the SMC's to have very good light transmission, the Tak othos were just average, comparable to UO v/t orthos. They were okay I guess, but at the time I was expecting a little more because of Tak's telescope reputation. I had the same opinion of AP's Super Planetary eyepieces, which disappointed me - I was expecting more than average performance from AP.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: SteveC]
      #6064940 - 09/05/13 06:00 PM Attachment (59 downloads)

Tak Abbe 9mm arrived today. If I'm lucky, first light tonight.

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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Symui]
      #6064943 - 09/05/13 06:02 PM Attachment (53 downloads)

another

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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Symui]
      #6064946 - 09/05/13 06:03 PM Attachment (54 downloads)

Top

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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Symui]
      #6064948 - 09/05/13 06:05 PM Attachment (156 downloads)

Lineup, 28 RKE, Tak 7.5mm LE, Tak 9mm Abbe, ZAOII 6mm

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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Symui]
      #6064951 - 09/05/13 06:06 PM Attachment (95 downloads)

One more, back side of the 9mm

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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Symui]
      #6065154 - 09/05/13 08:25 PM

Quote:

Lineup, 28 RKE, Tak 7.5mm LE, Tak 9mm Abbe, ZAOII 6mm




thanks for the picture. Nice to see a full set of smooth barrels!

The new orthos look nice, can't wait to hear about the optics, but am I the only one that thinks the printing on the sides looks a little cheesy next to 7.5mm LE engraving?


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Scott99]
      #6065638 - 09/06/13 06:19 AM

Quote:

am I the only one that thinks the printing on the sides looks a little cheesy next to 7.5mm LE engraving?


I'm viewing this on my phone. The screen resolution is not the best, so forgive me if I'm wrong here. Perhaps any lettering would look cheesy next to that pretty green lettering on the LE. Might be something subliminal going on here.

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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: edif300]
      #6066908 - 09/06/13 09:44 PM

My 9mm Astro Hutech HC's lettering is silk screened on. I'm fine with how it and the Tak ortho look but it will ware off in time. As to the HC's imaage quality it's in my top tier. David

Edited by dscarpa (09/06/13 09:50 PM)


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: edif300]
      #6066914 - 09/06/13 09:50 PM

My 9mm Astro Hutech HC's lettering is silk screened on. As with the Tak ortho it looks fine to me but will ware off in time. As to the HC's image quality it's in my top tier. I like the Tak's eyecup. My ortho doesn't have one but it's easy to use. David

Edited by dscarpa (09/06/13 09:57 PM)


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Symui]
      #6083231 - 09/16/13 03:05 AM

Hi Rick,

Any TAK Abbe first light news so far?

Stephan


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Stellarfire]
      #6083612 - 09/16/13 10:29 AM

Yes, yes, yes...long overdue! Anyone? Bueller?

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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: t.r.]
      #6083868 - 09/16/13 12:35 PM

I think it's Bueller's day off.

Mike


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Symui]
      #6083876 - 09/16/13 12:39 PM

Did the Tak Ortho come with that eyeguard? That's the ideal type of eyeguard for these little orthos. I swear I can hear your Zao-II 6 crying for one.


Mike


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #6086442 - 09/17/13 05:29 PM

Has anyone actually tried them yet!?!

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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: starcrafter]
      #6087216 - 09/18/13 01:26 AM

The 9mm I received appears to be a keeper but I had only one night of observing with below average seeing and transparency from the red zone.

Despite the conditions the 9mm performed nicely - splitting the triplet Iota Cassiopeia but any meaningful test will have to wait until I can get to some dark skies, hopefully during the next new moon. If the weather is good, I will head down to CalStar and hopefully meet some CN'er and give the 9mm a test drive on different scopes.

http://www.observers.org/CalStar2013

-Rick


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Symui]
      #6087254 - 09/18/13 02:09 AM

Quote:

The 9mm I received appears to be a keeper but I had only one night of observing with below average seeing and transparency from the red zone.

Despite the conditions the 9mm performed nicely - splitting the triplet Iota Cassiopeia but any meaningful test will have to wait until I can get to some dark skies, hopefully during the next new moon. If the weather is good, I will head down to CalStar and hopefully meet some CN'er and give the 9mm a test drive on different scopes.

http://www.observers.org/CalStar2013

-Rick



At 2.27" and 7.83", this triple (not counting the spectroscopic components) is a test for a 2" telescope. The close pair is similar to the 2.3" separation in epsilon Lyrae's closest pair, which can often be seen at 50-70X in a variety of scopes when seeing is good.

I don't know what the size of your scope is or what magnification is provided by 9mm.
A better pair might be zeta Aquarii, with a current separation of 1.7", a challenge for 60mm.
Or Pi Aquilae at 1.4", a challenge for an 80mm scope
Or 78 Pegasi at 1", a good challenge for a 4.5" scope.

All will require good seeing and perhaps a higher magnification than 9mm provides in your scope. You don't need dark skies for those--just steady ones.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6090815 - 09/19/13 10:57 PM

Quote:

Does Televue really need to be listening? Why would you want an Orthoscopic over one of their Plossls, really? The Plossl has a larger AFOV, is better corrected (Televue's design anyway) for fast scopes, and is competitively priced with the returned HD offering. It was Televue's Plossl, after all, that nearly relegated the commercial Orthoscopic to the dustbin of history in the first place. Recall that when Televue dropped the P-bomb, every other eyepiece seller scrambled to offer a Plossl variant (Vixen, Meade, Celestron, etc.) pretty much ending Orthoscopic offerings from those companies.

I think Orthoscopics, like many things retro, are enjoying a "faddish" renewal that will be temporary. The Introduction several years ago of the ZAO II limited run instilled in the hearts of many observers a longing to have a quality Orthoscopic at a price less than several hundreds of dollars a pop.

We're midway through that trend. The Japan Earthquake interrupted it for a period, and now it's finishing up. In ten years I predict that you'll be hard pressed to find a new Orthoscopic anywhere. It's not that they're bad eyepieces (they're not), but rather that they aren't any better than other newer available designs that cost the same and offer features Orthscopics cannot. They are a vestige of a time when 45-degrees without a total mess in the outer 20% of the FOV was novel and competitive. Now 45 degrees is puny and good off axis correction commonplace and cheap to obtain.

Regards,

Jim




Just a quick post for thought, had the TMB 92SS out a couple of nights ago on the moon using the 10mm Delos, 9mm U/O Ortho, Astro Hutech 9mm Ortho, 10mm Sirius Plossl from Orion, threw in the Tele Vue 8mm Plossl just for comparisons. Me and a friend were pretty surprised the Orion Sirius Plossl easily won the night with finer detail being revealed. I'm an Ortho guy, but with the fast TMB the Plossl was easily the winner, and yes it was easily discernible, the cheapest eyepiece won the contest at 10mm. The Plossl better corrected for fast scopes ?? without question absolutely true. And may I add the Tele Vue 8mm Plossl was tack sharp in the TMB.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: John Anthony]
      #6091053 - 09/20/13 03:24 AM

Quote:

Just a quick post for thought, had the TMB 92SS out a couple of nights ago on the moon using the 10mm Delos, 9mm U/O Ortho, Astro Hutech 9mm Ortho, 10mm Sirius Plossl from Orion, threw in the Tele Vue 8mm Plossl just for comparisons. Me and a friend were pretty surprised the Orion Sirius Plossl easily won the night with finer detail being revealed. I'm an Ortho guy, but with the fast TMB the Plossl was easily the winner, and yes it was easily discernible, the cheapest eyepiece won the contest at 10mm. The Plossl better corrected for fast scopes ?? without question absolutely true. And may I add the Tele Vue 8mm Plossl was tack sharp in the TMB.




Doesn't really prove anything else than the individual quality of the eyepieces, IMO. An ortho is not just an ortho and the UO orthos, for example, is not top tier. At all. That the TV plössls outperform them doesn't surprise me at all. My UO orthos are inferior to my 0.965" Kokusai Kohki orthos and Zeiss Jena orthos, for example.

So concluding that plössls work better in fast scopes based on just one observation with some random eyepieces is a flawed conclusion. Your particular plössls did work better than your orthos, but there's a high probability that the result would have been different, had you tested them against some higher-tier orthos, such as Zeiss Abbe orthos (which were also corrected down to f/4) or Nikon or Pentax SMC orthos.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #6091222 - 09/20/13 08:21 AM

Everyone seems go GA-GA over the Celestron Silvertop Plossls. I think they were just average.

Lately I aquired some of the orthoscopics from the Celestron-Vixen joint venture, circle-v mark, and it is like WOW !!!

These things were really good on Jupiter a week ago. The only orthos that were slightly better were the usuals- Pentax SMC in .965 & a Clave. These were all 6mm yielding 240x in a 10" dob.

3rd stringers were Baader Genuine and Circle-T's.

Orthoscopics are better for planetary targets.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: tomharri]
      #6091235 - 09/20/13 08:31 AM

From what I've read, the Silvertop Plossls are no better than the TV Plossls, and might not be as good. I've never felt a need for the Silvertops.

Mike


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: John Anthony]
      #6091423 - 09/20/13 10:08 AM

Quote:

Just a quick post for thought, had the TMB 92SS out a couple of nights ago on the moon using the 10mm Delos, 9mm U/O Ortho, Astro Hutech 9mm Ortho, 10mm Sirius Plossl from Orion, threw in the Tele Vue 8mm Plossl just for comparisons. Me and a friend were pretty surprised the Orion Sirius Plossl easily won the night with finer detail being revealed.




Hi John. Thanks for the quick observing report comparison! Something to ponder in this is how small focal length differences can result in big brightness and contrast differences. The 10mm Sirius Plossl will produce a 1.82mm exit pupil in your scope and the 9mm AH Ortho a 1.64mm exit pupil. Even when adjusting for the lower transmission of the Sirius since it is only single coated, the 10mm eyepiece's exit pupil still produces an image that is over 20% brighter than the smaller exit pupil from the 9mm eyepieces. This 20% brighter image will in itself make seeing finer contrast details easier. So impossible to discount that this exit pupil difference might be the primary factor, as opposed to the differing designs.

What you say is true about the benefits of the Ortho vs the Plossl. However, traditions die very hard and I feel that the Ortho will remain...especially at the specialty level it is. From a manufacturing standpoint the Symmetrical Plossl is way cheaper to produce, so it will always have the market share because of that and because of the very good performance you point out. However, the Abbe is steeped in planetary tradition and with that I feel it will always have an attraction, and be available from limited suppliers. Additionally, for those of us that are minimum glass likers, a 4mm, 5mm, and 6mm Abbe has more eye relief than a Symmetrical Plossl and is easier to endure when observing (I am comparing a 6mm Ortho to a 6.3mm Plossl right now and the slightly better ER is very easy to feel). My prediction and hope anyway


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: BillP]
      #6091849 - 09/20/13 01:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Just a quick post for thought, had the TMB 92SS out a couple of nights ago on the moon using the 10mm Delos, 9mm U/O Ortho, Astro Hutech 9mm Ortho, 10mm Sirius Plossl from Orion, threw in the Tele Vue 8mm Plossl just for comparisons. Me and a friend were pretty surprised the Orion Sirius Plossl easily won the night with finer detail being revealed.




Hi John. Thanks for the quick observing report comparison! Something to ponder in this is how small focal length differences can result in big brightness and contrast differences. The 10mm Sirius Plossl will produce a 1.82mm exit pupil in your scope and the 9mm AH Ortho a 1.64mm exit pupil. Even when adjusting for the lower transmission of the Sirius since it is only single coated, the 10mm eyepiece's exit pupil still produces an image that is over 20% brighter than the smaller exit pupil from the 9mm eyepieces. This 20% brighter image will in itself make seeing finer contrast details easier. So impossible to discount that this exit pupil difference might be the primary factor, as opposed to the differing designs.

What you say is true about the benefits of the Ortho vs the Plossl. However, traditions die very hard and I feel that the Ortho will remain...especially at the specialty level it is. From a manufacturing standpoint the Symmetrical Plossl is way cheaper to produce, so it will always have the market share because of that and because of the very good performance you point out. However, the Abbe is steeped in planetary tradition and with that I feel it will always have an attraction, and be available from limited suppliers. Additionally, for those of us that are minimum glass likers, a 4mm, 5mm, and 6mm Abbe has more eye relief than a Symmetrical Plossl and is easier to endure when observing (I am comparing a 6mm Ortho to a 6.3mm Plossl right now and the slightly better ER is very easy to feel). My prediction and hope anyway




Thanks Bill, I appreciate your insight, I am really enjoying the book Choosing and using Astronomical eyepieces. I really like the Orthos, always have. But this is the first time I have owned a scope this fast and I am finding that there is a place for the Plossl in my eyepiece case now, I am slowly getting the Tele Vue line, they just seem to work real well with this scope, apart from the short eye relief using the 8mm plossl my experience has been nothing short of great tack sharp views, to my eyes a little more so than other eyepiece designs. When I venture into using less than 6mm I prefer my 3-6mm Tele vue zoom, comfort of use (eye relief) being a major factor not to mention the views to me are just as sharp for what I'm looking at as a single eyepiece. I have had the opportunity to use the higher end names, TMB Mono, Zeiss ortho, Pentax ortho, and so on.. The differences to me are just to small compared to what you have to pay to get it, and usually the atmosphere doesn't cooperate 90% of the time to get the 5% increase in performance these eyepieces offer.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: John Anthony]
      #6091929 - 09/20/13 02:37 PM

Excellent points. For observers who are not interested in eeeking out another small few percent of on-axis planetary performance, a quality Plossl is definitely more advantageous for a minimum glass solution. And if you supplement that with the Nagler Zoom then you have a perfect complete range of focal lengths. This solution is compact, powerful, and easily does 95% of the performance capable. It's only for us nuts who strive to get that last few percent that something like a top line Abbe is worth its weight (like a ZAO) FWIW, one of my very favorite EP sets that I typically use the most in the field is primarily Plossls.

35mm Ultrascopic
25mm Sterling Plossl
20mm Sterling Plossl
17mm Sterling Plossl
12.5mm Sterling Plossl
9mm Owl Enhanced Superwide
6mm Owl Enhanced Superwide

This is really my favorite collection as it is quite capable and so small it fits in a very tiny case


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: BillP]
      #6092341 - 09/20/13 07:12 PM

Where are you guys buying these from? I've googled it and cannot find any. Thanks!

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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: pga7602]
      #6092370 - 09/20/13 07:35 PM

Never mind, I found it on OPT. Thanks!

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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: pga7602]
      #6099097 - 09/24/13 06:39 PM

Anymore first light with these eyepieces yet? I'm very interested.

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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: John Anthony]
      #6099152 - 09/24/13 07:14 PM

Quote:

Just a quick post for thought, had the TMB 92SS out a couple of nights ago on the moon using the 10mm Delos, 9mm U/O Ortho, Astro Hutech 9mm Ortho, 10mm Sirius Plossl from Orion, threw in the Tele Vue 8mm Plossl just for comparisons. Me and a friend were pretty surprised the Orion Sirius Plossl easily won the night with finer detail being revealed. I'm an Ortho guy, but with the fast TMB the Plossl was easily the winner, and yes it was easily discernible, the cheapest eyepiece won the contest at 10mm. The Plossl better corrected for fast scopes ?? without question absolutely true. And may I add the Tele Vue 8mm Plossl was tack sharp in the TMB.




I'm certainly not surprised by your finding. I also found my old TV Plossls (even barlowed) beat my UO Abbes and HD's in any scope shorter than f/8. And looking at the samples you had on hand for this comparison, the TV Plossl is the only eyepiece spot corrected for optimum performance down to f/4, all the abbe orthos are optimized for use at f/10 and above.

IIRC the only abbe optimized for use in fast systems down to f/4 was the ZAO-II's. And I doubt the TV Plossl would hold up in that comparison. I think what you were seeing is a coincidence of your choice of scope and eyepieces that night. And on axis, I doubt you can see very much difference between any of them.

Take it for what its worth, this is just IMO based on my experience and somewhat limited knowledge. Cheers.


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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Natty Bumppo]
      #6104877 - 09/27/13 08:15 PM

So, any first light news yet???

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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: starcrafter]
      #6164284 - 10/29/13 10:18 AM

I purchased the 32 mm last week and used it a little over the weekend. Here's what I found.

When I took it out of the box I was impressed by 3 things. The quality of the build, which is excellent, the darkness of the coatings, reflections are almost non-existent, and the heft of the eyepiece, definately not made out of aluminum.

I then used it in my Orion Apex 125 mm Mak-Cas.. Stars are sharp to the edge of the field of view. Scatter is well controlled. I compared it to a Zeiss Jena 25 mm I have and the Zeiss had just a little less scatter than the Tak. The moon was very sharp with lots of black shadows. Jupiter was also sharp with a ton of detail in the belts. It also easily showed a moon in transit just beginning to emerge from the limb of Jupiter. And the last thing I noticed when I compared it to my 32 mm Brandon was that the Tak seemed to snap to focus much easier. I kind of had to search for focus with the Brandon. (Heresy I know) With the Tak it was like "boom" your there with no searching required.

As a matter of fact, I liked it so much I have another one on the way for binoviewing.

Edited by RodgerHouTex (10/29/13 10:19 AM)


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BillP
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #6164287 - 10/29/13 10:21 AM

How was the scatter in the Tak compared to the Brandon?

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vahe
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: BillP]
      #6164437 - 10/29/13 12:03 PM

Quote:

How was the scatter in the Tak compared to the Brandon?




That would also be my question.

Vahe


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RodgerHouTex
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: vahe]
      #6164656 - 10/29/13 01:57 PM

And my answer would be the same. I couldn't see a difference.

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Astrojensen
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #6164721 - 10/29/13 02:31 PM

Sounds very promising indeed. I may have to get a pair for solar binoviewing with my 85mm f/19 Zeiss apo.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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csrlice12
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #6164757 - 10/29/13 02:54 PM

Quote:

Sounds very promising indeed. I may have to get a pair for solar binoviewing with my 85mm f/19 Zeiss apo.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark




f19....yep, its a solar scope..you can probably reach out and bat the sun with it....


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Astrojensen
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: csrlice12]
      #6164782 - 10/29/13 03:10 PM

Quote:

f19....yep, its a solar scope..you can probably reach out and bat the sun with it....




Not quite. At 149 million km's, the Sun is a bit too far for that, but I often have to wipe moon dust from the lens...





Obligatory showoff image.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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BillP
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #6164863 - 10/29/13 04:02 PM

Quote:

And my answer would be the same. I couldn't see a difference.




Just to clarify, that in the Tak vs CZJ, you felt the CZJ had slightly less scatter, and in the Tak vs Brandon, you felt about the same.


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RodgerHouTex
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: BillP]
      #6164891 - 10/29/13 04:18 PM

That's correct BillP. But I would love to hear what you have to say with your extensive background in eyepiece reviewing. It would be nice to know what you think as well.

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BillP
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #6164977 - 10/29/13 05:08 PM

I think they are in my future Just not sure when. Particularly the longer FLs which are not so common for Abbes. I was surprised though that Tak left such wide gaps in the short FLs. I will probably want the 18mm, 25mm, and 32mm to compliment my high-end Planetaries since those stop at 12mm with the AP-SPL.

Would love to get a loaner on the 6mm one day to pace it against the 6 BCO and 6 ZAO


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RodgerHouTex
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: BillP]
      #6166083 - 10/30/13 10:12 AM

Well when it comes down to it the ZAO IIs didn't come in a lot of focal lengths either. With the 2X Zeiss barlow you got 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, and 16. The Taks are supposed to come in 6, 9, 12.5, 18, 25, and 32 mm. So with a 2X barlow such as the Zeiss I have, that would give you 3, 4.5, 6, 6.25, 9, 12.5, 16, 18, 25 and 32 mm. Not too bad.

I did order a pair of the 9 mm. and 18 mm. Taks. I'm anxious to know how they compare to my BGOs of which I have a complete set and the Brandons.


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t.r.
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #6166346 - 10/30/13 12:55 PM

I'll be waiting for that report. A pair of 9 & 18's would round out my Brandon collection nicely.

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RodgerHouTex
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: t.r.]
      #6166573 - 10/30/13 02:41 PM

They are supposed to be here tomorrow. I might get a look over the weekend. I'll post if I do.

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vahe
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #6166633 - 10/30/13 03:17 PM

Quote:

They are supposed to be here tomorrow. I might get a look over the weekend. I'll post if I do.




Good news, that explains the 100% chances of rain here in Houston.

Vahe


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RodgerHouTex
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: vahe]
      #6166884 - 10/30/13 05:20 PM

Sorry Vahe, but the forecast looked good for Friday and Saturday night. We can hope.

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george tatsis
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #6167789 - 10/31/13 05:55 AM

Any idea when the 6mm is coming out?

George


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Stellarfire
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: george tatsis]
      #6167878 - 10/31/13 07:53 AM

Quote:

Any idea when the 6mm is coming out?

George




Takahashi Japan (Google Translate > English) still states for the Abbe 6mm, 12.5mm and 25mm "coming soon" (scroll down to the end).

Stephan


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george tatsis
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Stellarfire]
      #6167894 - 10/31/13 08:08 AM

Thanks for the link Stephan

I just hope it won't take as long as the BCOs did.

George


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RodgerHouTex
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: george tatsis]
      #6168001 - 10/31/13 09:20 AM

Me either.

And just by the way, I received the 9mm yesterday from Tak America. Same quality of build as the 32mm, dark coatings, etc. I'll be anxious to see how it performs against my BGO, 8mm Brandon, and 10mm Zeiss Jena. Looks to be clear tomorrow night.

Edited by RodgerHouTex (10/31/13 09:38 AM)


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JustaBoy
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #6168061 - 10/31/13 09:48 AM

We will be here waiting!

-Chuck


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fjs
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #6168213 - 10/31/13 11:05 AM

Hi Rodger,

Thanks for the report. Did you find the 28mm eye relief excessive? How much is taken up by the recessed eyelens?

Thanks,


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george tatsis
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #6168464 - 10/31/13 01:05 PM

Quote:

Me either.

And just by the way, I received the 9mm yesterday from Tak America. Same quality of build as the 32mm, dark coatings, etc. I'll be anxious to see how it performs against my BGO, 8mm Brandon, and 10mm Zeiss Jena. Looks to be clear tomorrow night.




You da man Rodger!

We are looking forward to your results!

George


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John Anthony
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: george tatsis]
      #6168506 - 10/31/13 01:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Me either.

And just by the way, I received the 9mm yesterday from Tak America. Same quality of build as the 32mm, dark coatings, etc. I'll be anxious to see how it performs against my BGO, 8mm Brandon, and 10mm Zeiss Jena. Looks to be clear tomorrow night.




You da man Rodger!

We are looking forward to your results!

George




Yes, very interested in your results, please post.


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RodgerHouTex
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: fjs]
      #6168561 - 10/31/13 01:46 PM

The 32 mm does have a lot of eye relief, but I didn't find it too hard to keep my head still. The eye cup wasn't much help though.

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csrlice12
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #6168745 - 10/31/13 03:34 PM

Quote:

The 32 mm does have a lot of eye relief, but I didn't find it too hard to keep my head still. The eye cup wasn't much help though.





No, No, No, this won't do...we want details!!!


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WilRobinson
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: csrlice12]
      #6168988 - 10/31/13 05:52 PM

I already have the 9mm and have ordered the 18mm, should be here "soon".

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RodgerHouTex
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: WilRobinson]
      #6175142 - 11/04/13 10:19 AM

So I took the 18mm and 9mm Tak orthos out Friday night with my EON 120 mm and compared them to some fairly popular eyepieces. Here's what I saw:

For the Tak 18mm, the build quality and coatings are top notch. For scatter, I used Sirius, and the Tak, Brandon 16 mm, and the BGO 18 mm were all about the same. The 16 mm Zeiss Jena showed a little less. These results are similar to the 32 mm Tak I talked about earlier. From a planetary detail perspective, I used Jupiter, they were pretty much all equal. The belts on Jupiter were sharp, well defined, and I could see a lot of detail in them with varying hues of brown. It was easy to see the "Great Red Spot". For sharpness across the field of view I used M41. The 18 mm Tak had no trouble at all with sharpness to the edge of the field. Ergonomically the 18 mm Tak was very easy to use. With my eye gently touching the rubber eye cup the field was fully illuminated.

Now onto the 9 mm Tak. The same high quality coatings and build quality mentioned earlier. Ergonomically, I had to kind of push my eye against the rubber eye cup to see a fully illuminated field. Not quite as good as the 18 mm. From a scatter perspective I was surprised to find that the Tak 9 mm had the least scatter of a BGO 9 mm, a Brandon 8 mm, and Zeiss Jena 10 mm. Detail on Jupiter was fantastic in the Tak 9 mm, Brandon, and the BGO. The red spot was easy and there was a wealth of detail in the belts. Similar to what I described for 18 mm. It was just bigger, but awesomely sharp. Surprisingly, Zeiss Jena didn't do as well. It definately struggled in this area. The Tak 9mm was also sharp to the edge of the field while veiwing M41.

Overall I would say the Taks are at least the equivalent of the BGOs and very close to the Brandons and Zeiss Jenas. At times being their equal. I intend to put together a binoviewing set, which I was going to do with the BGOs until production was stopped.

I'll be anxious to hear what other folks have to say about these eyepieces.


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BillP
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #6175174 - 11/04/13 10:34 AM

Thanks for the observation report Would be interesting to see a shootout of the new Tak 9mm vs the 9mm Pentax SMC Ortho.

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RodgerHouTex
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: BillP]
      #6175566 - 11/04/13 02:13 PM

Sounds like something you should do BillP. I don't have a Pentax SMC Ortho.

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BillP
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #6175577 - 11/04/13 02:17 PM

Unfortunately I only have the 7mm SMC Ortho.

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rgm40
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: RodgerHouTex]
      #6176438 - 11/04/13 10:18 PM

Did you find the 32mm comfortable to use? I purchased a 25mm circle T ortho once thinking it would be similar to the shorter focal lengths as far as comfort goes; BUT, I quickly found it very difficult to use as far as eye placement goes. It was very prone to "blackout" if the eye was not placed in exactly the right position. I can't tolerate eyepieces with this characteristic while standing on a ladder looking thru a long focal length Dob. The seller was gracious enough to allow me to return the EP as it was unusable AFAIAC.

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RodgerHouTex
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: rgm40]
      #6176553 - 11/04/13 11:22 PM

You do have to hover above the 32 mm eyepiece because your eye doesn't touch the eye cup. But as you found, that's true of other eyepieces as well. The 32 mm Brandon and most 25 mm Orthos come to mind. I didn't find it to be a problem, but I wasn't standing on a ladder looking through a long focal length Dob. If I were you I would borrow one first before buying. I wanted the 32 mm to fill out my Ortho collection. No one to my knowledge has made that long of a focal length Ortho in quite awhile.

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Nuphy
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: rgm40]
      #6176950 - 11/05/13 08:30 AM

For what it's worth, I compared the 32 mm Brandon (50th anni version) and the 32 mm Tak Abbe in a Tak FS-60Q (real quick, though).
The eye placement with the Tak was very easy, while I had more difficulties with my Brandon.


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WilRobinson
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Nuphy]
      #6220839 - 11/28/13 07:53 AM

I came home from work last night and my new TAK 18mm ortho was dropped of by the ups man, I had some running to do and every time I walked out of a store I looked up at a nice clear sky. I made the mistake of thinking about setting up the scope on my GM-8 and comparing it with some others in the eyepiece case. I say mistake because when I pulled in the drive the sky had socked in with a nice low grey cloud cover. Happy Thankgiving.

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Binomania.it
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: WilRobinson]
      #6263010 - 12/20/13 03:29 AM Attachment (21 downloads)

Hi to all yesterday i've received all the focals (Except the 25mm). Now, in Italy is raining. I hope to test its the next week. You can see some photos, here: http://www.astrotest.it/preview-fotografica-oculari-takahashi-ortho-abbe/ with comparison of other Eyepieces. Best Regards from Italy
Piergiovanni


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vahe
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Nuphy]
      #6263243 - 12/20/13 09:12 AM

Quote:

For what it's worth, I compared the 32 mm Brandon (50th anni version) and the 32 mm Tak Abbe in a Tak FS-60Q (real quick, though).
The eye placement with the Tak was very easy, while I had more difficulties with my Brandon.





Aside from eye placement, how do the 32 Brandons compare the 32 Tak Abbe in scatter department?

Vahe


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Andy Howie
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Binomania.it]
      #6263453 - 12/20/13 10:49 AM

Quote:

Hi to all yesterday i've received all the focals (Except the 25mm). Now, in Italy is raining. I hope to test its the next week. You can see some photos, here: http://www.astrotest.it/preview-fotografica-oculari-takahashi-ortho-abbe/ with comparison of other Eyepieces. Best Regards from Italy
Piergiovanni




Oooooh !!!!!

Great pics on your website.

I wish you clear skies.

Andy.


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csrlice12
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Andy Howie]
      #6263601 - 12/20/13 12:06 PM

You can also have too much eye relief....the Televue 40mm plossl is a good example. I can practially sit on the deck and drink a cup of coffee and see the view from across the yard...when you find that right "spot" though, it's a tack sharp eyepiece....

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george golitzin
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Binomania.it]
      #6263865 - 12/20/13 02:28 PM

I look forward to your upcoming report on these eyepieces, Piergiovanni. Thanks for the link to your site.

-george


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WilRobinson
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: george golitzin]
      #6272106 - 12/25/13 12:21 PM

My 6mm showed up for Christmas, My 18mm showed up a few weeks ago but I haven't used it yet, we've either been socked in with heavy clouds or its been sub zero cold. I hope to use them sometime before spring but who knows.

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Binomania.it
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: WilRobinson]
      #6272210 - 12/25/13 01:21 PM

Hello everyone, unfortunately here in Italy is continuing to rain

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Binomania.it
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Binomania.it]
      #6309536 - 01/13/14 03:54 AM

Good Morning to Everybody. I hope that you understand my poor English.:-)
Last night (finally) I had the chance to use the new Takahashi Abbe’s.
As usual, I ‘ve observed with my Takahashi FS 128 , both in direct vision and with the use of a Takahashi 31.8mm prism.
I've done several tests, comparing different focal lengths of different eyepieces: Baader Genuine Ortho , Takahashi LE , Circle-T and TMB MONOCENTRIC .
Observing the moon , honestly , thanks to the great contrast provided by our satellite, I have not noticed huge differences that I did lean towards one eyepieces over the other. To be picky rhymes Gassendi was more distinct in the TMB Super Mono even if the field of view provided was “suffocating” &#61514;
In this kind of visions I prefer a good field of view and a great comfort, for these reasons , I liked the performance of the old Tahahashi LE. Quite similar the new Takahashi Ortho and the Baader Genuine Ortho. . However, the new Abbe Japanese, in my humble opinion, seem to provide a more neutral tone and less scattered light
Very different , however , my impressions during the observation of Jupiter with various 6mm eyepieces .
The TMB monocentric it is detected, even if briefly, the best of the lot, with sharp images and very little scattered light . In second place was the new Orthoscopic Takahashi Abbe that proved slightly sharper , contrasted with less diffused light and with a more neutral tone than the Baader Genuine Ortho . I was quite impressed of the vision of GRS provided by the new Orthoscopic Takahashi . I have tried several times to change the eyepiece and refocus ,but the substance has not changed . The performances of the new Abbe Takahashi is closer to the mythical TMB monocentric that the Baader Genuine Ortho and T -CIRCLE . The old Takahashi LE, in this type of observation, did not reach the sharpness of the new ABBE .
Probably my impressions may change if you were using a telescope with obstruction. I may give another comparison with my old Mak Meade 7.
Regarding the ergonomy ,the new Taka Abbe are more similar to the mythical Takahashi LE than the classic Ortho.
The lens hood allows a great comfort and also avoids to fogging the eyepiece.
In summary .
Sharpness: I place TMB Monocentric, II place Takahashi ABBE II , III place BGO , IV place -Circle T , V place Takahashi LE
Containment of reflexes: T I Place TMB Monocentric , II place Takahashi ABBEI , III place BGO , IV place Circle T , V place Takahashi LE
[Ergonomics (construction, ease of use , resistance to fogging : I place Takahashi LE, II place Takahashi Abbe , III place T -Circle III , IV place TMB Monocentric , V place Baader Genuine Ortho.
Best Regards from Italy


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fjs
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Binomania.it]
      #6309545 - 01/13/14 04:26 AM

Thanks for the report Piergiovanni,

I'll be getting the Tak' Ortho's for sure now.

I found it easy enough to understand.

Quote:

Containment of reflexes: T I Place TMB Monocentric , II place Takahashi ABBEI , III place BGO , IV place Circle T , V place Takahashi LE




I'm sure you meant 'Containment of reflections' here.


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csrlice12
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: fjs]
      #6309749 - 01/13/14 08:43 AM

I donno...I'd find it hard to not jump up and down looking thru a TMB Mono too........

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Mariner@sg
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: fjs]
      #6309750 - 01/13/14 08:43 AM

Quote:

Thanks for the report Piergiovanni,

I'll be getting the Tak' Ortho's for sure now.

I found it easy enough to understand.

Quote:

Containment of reflexes: T I Place TMB Monocentric , II place Takahashi ABBEI , III place BGO , IV place Circle T , V place Takahashi LE




I'm sure you meant 'Containment of reflections' here.




I'm guessing scatter?


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Binomania.it
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: csrlice12]
      #6309870 - 01/13/14 09:52 AM

Yes, excuse me, you are right!

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blackhaz
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Binomania.it]
      #6310016 - 01/13/14 11:04 AM

Sorry if bit an off-topic but does BGO have a warm tint indeed? I am surprised the new Tak Abbe is cooler. I always thought all Baader stuff was neutral. Never looked through BGO though...

I'm thinking whether it makes sense to replace my 18mm BCO with the new Tak Abbe... I compared it briefly with 21.5mm RKE and found RKE having less scatter (compared both in Mark V), but perhaps that was due to the FL difference... Hmm...


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BillP
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Binomania.it]
      #6310077 - 01/13/14 11:33 AM

Quote:

Observing the moon ... I have not noticed huge differences .... To be picky rhymes Gassendi was more distinct in the TMB Super Mono even if the field of view provided was “suffocating”... However, the new Abbe Japanese, in my humble opinion, seem to provide a more neutral tone and less scattered light.

...during the observation of Jupiter .... The TMB monocentric ..., the best of the lot, with sharp images and very little scattered light . In second place was the new Orthoscopic Takahashi Abbe that proved slightly sharper , contrasted with less diffused light and with a more neutral tone than the Baader Genuine Ortho . I was quite impressed of the vision of GRS provided by the new Orthoscopic Takahashi ....The performances of the new Abbe Takahashi is closer to the mythical TMB monocentric that the Baader Genuine Ortho and T -CIRCLE .




Piergiovanni,

Thanks for the great report...and for choosing some of the best optics (FS128) to test them with Nice to finally have some hard details on how these various Abbes compare


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Binomania.it
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Reged: 05/20/10

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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: BillP]
      #6310126 - 01/13/14 11:58 AM

Hi. I use Abbe Zeiss for "neutral comparison" So the BGO are more warm respect the Abbe Zeiss but less warm respect the old circle-T. New Taka Abbe seems to me to present a slightly more neutral tint compared to BGO. Obviously using FS 128. Ie hope to give you more information during the next week..Now is snowing :-(

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Binomania.it
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Binomania.it]
      #6310130 - 01/13/14 12:00 PM Attachment (27 downloads)

Thanks for the comments, Bill

Edited by Binomania.it (01/13/14 12:10 PM)


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george golitzin
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Binomania.it]
      #6310495 - 01/13/14 03:19 PM

I'd also like to thank you, Piergiovanni, for the helpful report. I look forward to trying out these eyepieces soon.

-George


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blackhaz
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: george golitzin]
      #6310498 - 01/13/14 03:25 PM

Grazie mille, Piergiovanni!

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oldjet
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Reged: 01/29/11

Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Binomania.it]
      #6311204 - 01/13/14 09:45 PM

Thanks for the report Piergiovanni. I've been anticipating this TAK ABBE first light since you've announced it last December.

The sparse reports available on these are encouraging. There is reasonable reason to believe that all current abbe orthos are coming out of the same Japanese factory (deduced from statements on University Optics' homepage), but I suspect that Takahashi may be discriminating theirs (from UO, Fujiyama or Hutech) by meeting higher polish or coating criteria - maybe. Or maybe I'm just deriving too many conclusions based on too few data points..


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RodgerHouTex
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: oldjet]
      #6311903 - 01/14/14 09:56 AM

I took my 6mm Tak Ortho out Saturday night and used it with my TSA-102 and my new Tak 1 1/4 prism diagonal and the detail on Jupiter's disk was unbelievable. It looked like a Hubble picture from a distance. I could even see Syrtis Major on Mars, even though it's still really small. Scatter around Jupiter's disk was on a par with my Pentax 5 XO.

Later I used my 9mm Tak Ortho also. Scatter in it was a little worse than a Zeiss Jena 10mm I have.

One other thing of note - with Jupiter just outside the field of both eyepieces there was a reflection off the inside of the eyepiece. I've never really checked but I think my other eyepieces do that also. The interior surfaces of the Tak orthos looks to be flat black, so I'm not sure what was causing it.


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Astrojensen
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Binomania.it]
      #6312081 - 01/14/14 11:18 AM

Thanks for an excellent mini-review, Piergiovanni.

I was going to order a pair of 32mm's for my binoviewer right after reading your review, so I found some at Intercon Spacetek in Germany. 189 euros a pop. Ouch. I just can't afford that right now, so I'll keep using my 40mm TS Easyviews a while longer, maybe getting the 32mm Easyviews sometimes this summer.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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turtle86
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: Binomania.it]
      #6312319 - 01/14/14 01:28 PM

Quote:

Good Morning to Everybody. I hope that you understand my poor English.:-)
Last night (finally) I had the chance to use the new Takahashi Abbe’s.
As usual, I ‘ve observed with my Takahashi FS 128 , both in direct vision and with the use of a Takahashi 31.8mm prism.
I've done several tests, comparing different focal lengths of different eyepieces: Baader Genuine Ortho , Takahashi LE , Circle-T and TMB MONOCENTRIC .
Observing the moon , honestly , thanks to the great contrast provided by our satellite, I have not noticed huge differences that I did lean towards one eyepieces over the other. To be picky rhymes Gassendi was more distinct in the TMB Super Mono even if the field of view provided was “suffocating” &#61514;
In this kind of visions I prefer a good field of view and a great comfort, for these reasons , I liked the performance of the old Tahahashi LE. Quite similar the new Takahashi Ortho and the Baader Genuine Ortho. . However, the new Abbe Japanese, in my humble opinion, seem to provide a more neutral tone and less scattered light
Very different , however , my impressions during the observation of Jupiter with various 6mm eyepieces .
The TMB monocentric it is detected, even if briefly, the best of the lot, with sharp images and very little scattered light . In second place was the new Orthoscopic Takahashi Abbe that proved slightly sharper , contrasted with less diffused light and with a more neutral tone than the Baader Genuine Ortho . I was quite impressed of the vision of GRS provided by the new Orthoscopic Takahashi . I have tried several times to change the eyepiece and refocus ,but the substance has not changed . The performances of the new Abbe Takahashi is closer to the mythical TMB monocentric that the Baader Genuine Ortho and T -CIRCLE . The old Takahashi LE, in this type of observation, did not reach the sharpness of the new ABBE .
Probably my impressions may change if you were using a telescope with obstruction. I may give another comparison with my old Mak Meade 7.
Regarding the ergonomy ,the new Taka Abbe are more similar to the mythical Takahashi LE than the classic Ortho.
The lens hood allows a great comfort and also avoids to fogging the eyepiece.
In summary .
Sharpness: I place TMB Monocentric, II place Takahashi ABBE II , III place BGO , IV place -Circle T , V place Takahashi LE
Containment of reflexes: T I Place TMB Monocentric , II place Takahashi ABBEI , III place BGO , IV place Circle T , V place Takahashi LE
[Ergonomics (construction, ease of use , resistance to fogging : I place Takahashi LE, II place Takahashi Abbe , III place T -Circle III , IV place TMB Monocentric , V place Baader Genuine Ortho.
Best Regards from Italy




Thanks for the excellent review! I've been wanting a good 6mm Ortho for some time, and since the 6mm ZAO II is almost impossible to come by, it sounds like the 6mm Tak Abbe (which I'll now start calling the TAO ) will do nicely. I like a neutral tone myself and if it has less scatter than the BGO then that is a very good thing indeed. I just ordered a 6mm TAO and look forward to seeing that great view of the GRS you mentioned.


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astro127
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Re: Takahashi Abbe series new [Re: turtle86]
      #6321556 - 01/19/14 01:40 AM

Can anyone of the reviewers/testers who directly compared Takahashi Abbe to LE tell a few words about parfocality issue?
Are Tak Abbes parfocal to LEs? If not how much is the difference?


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