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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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Jeff Morgan
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Reged: 09/28/03

Loc: Prescott, AZ
Re: Time to ask the experts new [Re: Ps191]
      #6262117 - 12/19/13 03:03 PM

Quote:

@ Jeff Morgan - Thanks I don't few pushed to buy complete sets which is why I'm asking here before buying the ones that will work the best. Also considering I spent years with simple eyepieces so most any choice will be an upgrade that should keep me happy for a vary long time, or is this a slipper slop? Maybe the key is not to look through more expensive eyepieces?






Well, perhaps the only thing not debatable on the Eyepiece Forum is that expensive eyepieces spoil you. In most all cases you get what you pay for.

If I understand your question correctly, yes getting something like a Delos or Pentax XW could be a "final destination" (if there is such a thing in eyepieces), unless you find out you crave more field as some do. Only one person holds that answer and getting out to a club observing session or star party will help you answer that question before you start spending money.


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Lorence
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/15/08

Re: Time to ask the experts new [Re: TechPan6415]
      #6262155 - 12/19/13 03:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Take a look at what some people are doing with their astro video cameras before you spend more on eyepieces.




That's like saying "Take a look at what some people are doing with Garage Band on their computers before you spend money on a Martin Acoustic."




Selling horseshoes in Detroit seems a bit more appropriate. Any bets more people have played some sort of Garage Band than have played a Martin, or even know what a Martin is.

To make a comparison like you have suggests you have not seen what people are doing with electronic eyepieces. I'm under the impression that the original poster would be open minded enough to realize that.


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Ralph Steudtner
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Reged: 07/13/12

Re: Time to ask the experts new [Re: Ps191]
      #6262236 - 12/19/13 04:13 PM

Hi Kevin

Since we have similar scopes I'll throw in my 2 cents worth on your eyepiece choices as well. I personally find that in my 12" Dobs my most frequently used focal lengths to view the types of objects you like to view are 14mm and 10mm. Since that is the case for me if I were only going to choose 1 or 2 eyepieces, I would concentrate most of my money on those focal lengths. You seem to like the wide field views, however, so that would dictate at least one of your 2 eyepieces at a longer focal length.

Of the many choices mentioned my 2 choices ( and I have both) would be the ES 100/14 and the ES 82/24. You said you want to view the double cluster. My ES 100/14 gives me the best view of the double cluster I have ever seen. There is something about the afov, exit pupil and magnification using that eyepiece in my 12" Dobs that is truly exceptional. It also does an excellent job on many other DSO's as well. I would also choose the 100 degree fov in that focal length over the 82 degree.
For my low power eyepiece I chose the ES 82/24. It provides an afov more than sufficient to view most of the objects you will want to see. In addition, when you complete your 8" Dobs the ES 82/24 will give you the same afov as the ES 82/30 will in your 12" for viewing those larger objects. The 24mm also has an advantage in weight, cost and magnification over the 30mm.

When you begin looking for higher magnification eyepieces there are many excellent choices to choose from. For now though, I think you would be very pleased with those choices.

Ralph


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TechPan6415
sage
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Reged: 07/29/12

Loc: Aspen, Co
Re: Time to ask the experts new [Re: Lorence]
      #6262332 - 12/19/13 05:14 PM

Quote:

To make a comparison like you have suggests you have not seen what people are doing with electronic eyepieces. I'm under the impression that the original poster would be open minded enough to realize that.




I have spent the last 20 years of my 24 years as a professional photographer using digital, far, far longer than most and I am nearly done with it. What I have seen this technology do to people by and large is not good. In fact, I have been on a panel of DC based think tanks for the past 4 years as I did a project that had the unintended consequences of watching people go from having eye contact to being a bunch of rude idiots.

So yeah, I understand what you are talking about...I am 1,000% against it and actually plan to fight it. It's yet one *more* thing to use a device on instead of being tactile in seeing the oldest light of the farthest objects your soul will ever set eyes on.

If someone said they would pay me a million dollars to use gadgets instead of real eyepieces, I would tell them to donate the money to a good charity and get lost!

There is simply no substitute for seeing something with your own two eyes, through a telescope, refracted water, a reflection or otherwise. That is what this hobby is all about, not this new fangled fad of "Photoshopped Photons".

********************

Back on topic, to the OP of this thread:

If I could only have 3 of the 8 eyepieces I own, I would keep my ES 100 25mm, ES 100 14mm and soon to arrive Nagler zoom 3-6mm. But if only one, the 14mm 100, it's by far my favorite.


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gene 4181
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 11/12/13

Loc: n.e. ohio
Re: Time to ask the experts new [Re: Ps191]
      #6262507 - 12/19/13 07:22 PM

i only recommended my thoughts following your price of 400 dollars. you mentioned pleides, double cluster and andromeda galaxy. you mentioned 30 mm 82. and of the 2, 14 mm and 11 mm. i thought the 14 might be better for a scope of 1500 mm. it could double as a 7 mm with the barlow and be usable on average nights. i didn't think the 11 mm would be usable most nights barlowed. but if it would with your location and conditions, my bad.

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Ps191
super member
*****

Reged: 06/17/09

Loc: E.OR.
Re: Time to ask the experts new [Re: Starman1]
      #6262533 - 12/19/13 07:38 PM

Quote:

Kevin,

The html code behind that calculator uses the formula:
1) TF = AF/M to calculate True Field.
AF = Apparent Field
M = Magnification.

This will result in very slightly larger than actual true fields when calculated.

You may have read that a slightly more accurate formula to use is:
2) TF = (FSEP/TFL) * 57.296
where FSEP = field stop of eyepiece
and TFL = Telescope focal length.

How much difference does it make?

Let's see:

My Telescope has an effective focal length of 1825.6mm
If I use a 21 Ethos, the magnification is 86.93 and the field stop of that eyepiece is 36.2mm.

Using formula 1, the true field is 100/86.93 = 1 degree 9 minutes
Using formula 2, the true field is (36.2/1825.6)*57.296 = 1 degree 8 minutes.

That difference is really small.

The only point I'd make is that IF you know the field stop diameter, use formula 2. Otherwise, use formula 1.




Thanks, it is always good to know the formulas behind the answers. It might be time to set up a spreadsheet.


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Ps191
super member
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Reged: 06/17/09

Loc: E.OR.
Re: Time to ask the experts new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #6262540 - 12/19/13 07:44 PM

Quote:

Quote:

@ Jeff Morgan - Thanks I don't few pushed to buy complete sets which is why I'm asking here before buying the ones that will work the best. Also considering I spent years with simple eyepieces so most any choice will be an upgrade that should keep me happy for a vary long time, or is this a slipper slop? Maybe the key is not to look through more expensive eyepieces?






Well, perhaps the only thing not debatable on the Eyepiece Forum is that expensive eyepieces spoil you. In most all cases you get what you pay for.

If I understand your question correctly, yes getting something like a Delos or Pentax XW could be a "final destination" (if there is such a thing in eyepieces), unless you find out you crave more field as some do. Only one person holds that answer and getting out to a club observing session or star party will help you answer that question before you start spending money.




I did make it to OSP once a few years back, I felt like a child in a candy shop. The good thing is that I have skies as dark, are darker, then OSP when the weather cooperates, the down side is that the closest club is a good three hours away. I guess CN will have to be my club - welcome aboard everyone


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Ps191
super member
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Reged: 06/17/09

Loc: E.OR.
Re: Time to ask the experts new [Re: Ralph Steudtner]
      #6262555 - 12/19/13 07:54 PM

Quote:

Hi Kevin

Since we have similar scopes I'll throw in my 2 cents worth on your eyepiece choices as well. I personally find that in my 12" Dobs my most frequently used focal lengths to view the types of objects you like to view are 14mm and 10mm. Since that is the case for me if I were only going to choose 1 or 2 eyepieces, I would concentrate most of my money on those focal lengths. You seem to like the wide field views, however, so that would dictate at least one of your 2 eyepieces at a longer focal length.

Of the many choices mentioned my 2 choices ( and I have both) would be the ES 100/14 and the ES 82/24. You said you want to view the double cluster. My ES 100/14 gives me the best view of the double cluster I have ever seen. There is something about the afov, exit pupil and magnification using that eyepiece in my 12" Dobs that is truly exceptional. It also does an excellent job on many other DSO's as well. I would also choose the 100 degree fov in that focal length over the 82 degree.
For my low power eyepiece I chose the ES 82/24. It provides an afov more than sufficient to view most of the objects you will want to see. In addition, when you complete your 8" Dobs the ES 82/24 will give you the same afov as the ES 82/30 will in your 12" for viewing those larger objects. The 24mm also has an advantage in weight, cost and magnification over the 30mm.

When you begin looking for higher magnification eyepieces there are many excellent choices to choose from. For now though, I think you would be very pleased with those choices.

Ralph




Thanks, sound like the ES14mm-100 is a winner, I'll have to see if anyone want to part with theirs and it will have to be used or I will not be able to buy at all.
I did see a 13mmT6 Nagler in the classifieds for $225. Would any of you ES14mm-100 owners part with your ES for a 13mmT6 Nagler


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Ps191
super member
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Reged: 06/17/09

Loc: E.OR.
Re: Time to ask the experts new [Re: gene 4181]
      #6262561 - 12/19/13 07:58 PM

Quote:

i only recommended my thoughts following your price of 400 dollars. you mentioned pleides, double cluster and andromeda galaxy. you mentioned 30 mm 82. and of the 2, 14 mm and 11 mm. i thought the 14 might be better for a scope of 1500 mm. it could double as a 7 mm with the barlow and be usable on average nights. i didn't think the 11 mm would be usable most nights barlowed. but if it would with your location and conditions, my bad.




About the barlowed 11mm your probably right, I live among the mountains so the seeing is not always that steady. Thanks for adding your observations to this thread.


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ibase
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Reged: 03/20/08

Loc: Manila, Philippines 121*E 14*N
Re: Time to ask the experts new [Re: Ps191]
      #6262657 - 12/19/13 09:07 PM

Quote:


@ ibase - If you took that picture then you would have both the 100 and 82 deg. Would you care to share your thoughts comparing the two?





Yes, I have both of these 14mm's. The obvious difference is the bigger field (by 22%) on the ES-100 14mm (and it's bulkier/heavier too), and unlike the 82, field curvature is no problem where the latter (82) suffers from what I would categorize as "mild" FC, not so objectionable or a deal breaker but it's there. Reports about the FC on the 82 are all over the place, probably a function of the ability of one's individual eye to adjust or compensate for FC. On axis there's not much of a difference, maybe just a tad sharper on the 100. And the 100 is 2" format, while the 82 is 1-1/4". Aesthetically, the 100 wins hands down with its enthralling & majestic views.


Underbelly of 100ES14mm (left) & 82ES14mm

Best,


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SeattleScott
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/14/11

Re: Time to ask the experts new [Re: ibase]
      #6262694 - 12/19/13 09:32 PM

The beauty of hyper wides is in the eye of the beholder. I stargazed once with a guy who had a 41 Pan, 31Nagler and 21 Ethos. We both agreed that we liked the nagler better than the Ethos because our eyes couldn't take in that wide of a FOV so there was a sense that it was being wasted. Personally my eyes can take in about an 80 deg AFOV so 82 deg is perfect for me. Spacewalk effect with virtually no wasted FOV. Some people prefer super wides like Panoptics, Pentax, Delos, LVW etc because their eyes can only take in a 70 deg FOV or so. Others claim to be able to take advantage of a 100 deg FOV.
DISCLAIMER the guy whose ethos I looked thru had a tracking scope, not a Dob. My scopes are all able to be mounted on a tracking eq mount. If you have a non tracking scope, hyper wides are of value even if you cannot take in the entire FOV because they allow you to study an object longer before it drifts out of view. Just realize they can get very big and heavy, effecting the scopes balance. If your telescope falls over when you insert an eyepiece, your eyepiece is too heavy!


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csrlice12
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Time to ask the experts new [Re: SeattleScott]
      #6263210 - 12/20/13 08:55 AM

The whole idea of the 100* (and wider) Hyperwides is that you "don't" see the field stop. You see the object in the context of the night sky around it. The 100* aren't really designed for tracking an object from field stop to field stop, they're designed for the expansive view. You're not supposed to view the entire fov, the idea is to get the field stop out of the way.....

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Ps191
super member
*****

Reged: 06/17/09

Loc: E.OR.
Re: Time to ask the experts new [Re: SeattleScott]
      #6263788 - 12/20/13 01:54 PM

Quote:

If you have a non tracking scope, hyper wides are of value even if you cannot take in the entire FOV because they allow you to study an object longer before it drifts out of view.




Yep, my scope is none tracking and I often view with others who are not familiar with telescopes so having a wide field of view would be an advantage - I think (as I have little to no experience with eyepieces over 60degs).

Quote:

Just realize they can get very big and heavy, effecting the scopes balance.




This is one reason I'm thinking more about the ES24mm vs the ES30mm. I still may have to add weight for balancing, but that is doable.

Quote:

If your telescope falls over when you insert an eyepiece, your eyepiece is too heavy!




Na, I just need a bigger scope with better balance


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Ps191
super member
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Reged: 06/17/09

Loc: E.OR.
Re: Time to ask the experts new [Re: csrlice12]
      #6263790 - 12/20/13 01:56 PM

Quote:

The whole idea of the 100* (and wider) Hyperwides is that you "don't" see the field stop. You see the object in the context of the night sky around it. The 100* aren't really designed for tracking an object from field stop to field stop, they're designed for the expansive view. You're not supposed to view the entire fov, the idea is to get the field stop out of the way.....




Sounds great I'll take your word for it. Hopefully I'll be able to have experienced this in the future.


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Ps191
super member
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Reged: 06/17/09

Loc: E.OR.
Re: Time to ask the experts new [Re: Ps191]
      #6263803 - 12/20/13 02:01 PM

ES14mm(100) vs. 13mmT6(82) Nagler

I would still like to hear if any ES14mm-100 owners would part with their ES for a 13mmT6 Nagler or vis versa.


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csrlice12
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Time to ask the experts new [Re: Ps191]
      #6263918 - 12/20/13 03:00 PM

Don't have a 13T6, but do have other Televues...and the only thing I'd replace the ES 100* 14mm with would be the 13Ethos....The ES 14mm is the best of the ES 100 lineup. The 20mm is also good, still waiting on the 9 (but reports are good), the 5.5 has eyelash territory eye relief, but the views are good.

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hfjacinto
I think he's got it!
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Reged: 01/12/09

Loc: Land of clouds and LP
Re: Time to ask the experts new [Re: Ps191]
      #6263937 - 12/20/13 03:08 PM

Quote:

ES14mm(100) vs. 13mmT6(82) Nagler

I would still like to hear if any ES14mm-100 owners would part with their ES for a 13mmT6 Nagler or vis versa.




I have both and currently use the 14MM ES 100* more. I only keep the 13MM as its 1.25" and my current largest 1.25" eyepiece (not including the binoviewer sets).


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BillP
Postmaster
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Reged: 11/26/06

Loc: Vienna, VA
Re: Time to ask the experts new [Re: Lorence]
      #6263968 - 12/20/13 03:30 PM

Quote:

Take a look at what some people are doing with their astro video cameras before you spend more on eyepieces....I have seen and enjoyed observing more in the few years I have used my Mallincams than I have in all the years before.




You make an interesting point. Especially now with the Mallincam Jr which is priced around $599, or equal to one expensive 100 degree eyepiece, or 6 very good Plossls/Abbes.

Of course eViewing is not the same experience as visual viewing, but it certainly has its own set of merits that only it can do, expanding the capability in a way that the conventional eyepiece never will be able to. The winds of change are definitely blowing, and something to seriously consider for those considering the hobby.


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JustaBoy
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Reged: 06/19/12

Re: Time to ask the experts new [Re: BillP]
      #6264047 - 12/20/13 04:18 PM

Bill,

I hope I'm dead before this happens.


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Jeff Morgan
Postmaster
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Reged: 09/28/03

Loc: Prescott, AZ
Re: Time to ask the experts new [Re: BillP]
      #6264053 - 12/20/13 04:19 PM Attachment (15 downloads)

Quote:

Of course eViewing is not the same experience as visual viewing, but it certainly has its own set of merits that only it can do, expanding the capability in a way that the conventional eyepiece never will be able to. The winds of change are definitely blowing, and something to seriously consider for those considering the hobby.




I recall the early days of the "Cookbook Camera" and how coarse the images looked. Couldn't hold a candle to film. Fast forward to today, CCD's have the resolution, film is dead.

Yes, Mallicam is different - fundamentally different - than visual. But it offers great promise and betting against electronics has been a losing bet. It will be an interesting future.

Someone in the local club invited me over last September to walk me through his Mallincam set-up on an 8" SCT. Here is a 6 second exposure (perhaps it was 12 seconds?) of M8 with the moon approximately 6 degrees away. This is just a snapshot from my iPhone of his CRT monitor. The monitor itself was a $9 thrift store special:


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