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Nebhunter
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/04/03

Loc: Frostbite Falls
E200 - E6 Home Processing
      #3195288 - 07/02/09 03:13 PM

For those interested - we are asking those with experience in the processing specifically of E200 film (for now) with the E6 process to give us an introduction to what is involved. This would be classed as hand dipping.

The gist of this thread would be so that those of us interested would have the following:

A] Equipment required - trays - holders - a general outline. Estimated cost of such equipment - and where we can buy it (Fleabay) etc. This would be specific to 35 and 120 MF film.

B] Developer materials - E6 process - and where to buy it direct (Kodak or camera store) and again - estimated costs. How long does it sit in storage?

C] The general process of developing the E200 and what's involved.

D] Anything I've missed or should be included. I'm asking specifically about E200 at this point in time. If Kodachrome film was pulled by Kodak, can E200 be far behind? I see this as a safe guard in some ways, as it would allow those concerned to stock up and freeze sufficient quantities of E200 and have the materials to develop it in the future - should it come to that.

Once we have the E200 process done - we can start new threads on developing other films - negatives and B&W - which interests me. Lots of B&W developing stuff being sold off cheap.

OK? I'm all ears. I've got 6 rolls of E200 ready to be processed.

Igor


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skyguy55
sage
*****

Reged: 09/23/07

Loc: Vancouver Canada (Rain Forest)
Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Nebhunter]
      #3195370 - 07/02/09 03:50 PM

Well my Friend,

The last time I developed E6 was 25 years ago so things may have changed since. What I recall is that the basic kit was fairly expensive at the time and you could make smaller amount depending on how many rolls you wanted to develop. (I'm talking 35mm now) It did not have a very long shelf life after the chemicals were mixed

I remember that the temperatures were critical but they could be matched to different times. If the solution temperatures were higher, developing times were lower. I think you would need a DAYLIGHT TANK and a change bag for loading the file into the tank. You would also need some measuring beakers and some storage jars. There wasn't much equipment that was needed.

I'm sure someone with a more recent history on developing will chime in soon, besides, I am from the dark side and just slipped in here for a minute or two.

Gregg


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Nebhunter
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/04/03

Loc: Frostbite Falls
Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: skyguy55]
      #3195619 - 07/02/09 06:10 PM

Thanks for kicking off this thread Gregg and paying us a visit - those who lurk in the basement. I am going to encourage you, however, to take out that Mamiya camera once in awhile and try some film wide field shots.

Drop in anytime.

Igor


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Kona
member


Reged: 10/22/08

Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Nebhunter]
      #3195893 - 07/02/09 08:35 PM Attachment (195 downloads)

I'll give this thread a go.

I mostly process black and white film, but I've processed color transparency film. It can readily be done by hand, but timing and temperature of the color chemicals has to be consistent.

A] Fancy equipment isn't necessary (like a big Jobo processor) but it does make it easier. At the minimum all you'd need is a large tray of water to temper the chemistry and a common daylight-type film tank.

Color chemistry needs to be processed around 95 to 100 degrees fahrenheit. A inexpensive aquarium heater and a recirculating pump work handily. Most aquarium heaters won't go above 85 (otherwise you'd kill your fish!) but some can be bypassed by turning the dial-type thermostats to a higher temperature by forcing the dial past the 85 degree mark. You'll need an accurate thermometer to monitor the tempering water bath as well.

B] Most of the larger photographic companies like Adorama and Calumet will ship the Kodak E-6 chemistry kits to you. The Kodak kit makes a large amount of chemistry; about a gallon of each chemical (and there are seven in the Kodak kit). However, not all of it has to be mixed up at once. If you have small graduates with accurate milliliter markings, the concentrated stock chemistry can be mixed up with water into small working-strength batches as needed. Once opened, the concentrated stock chemistry in the Kodak kit has a limited life. Exposure to air (the developers in particular) will cause the chemicals to slowly oxidize and no longer work. It could be months or as little as a week; it depends on how much air is in the bottles.

To maximize the life of the chemistry, minimize the exposure to air. This really only needs to be done for the developers in the kit. Glass bottles filled to the very top and sealed with saran wrap are airtight, as are plastic bottles like what Coke comes in (if the plastic keeps the fizz in, it generally works.) Another option is to displace the air in bottles with something inert like nitrogen -- I've also used "canned air" (like dust-off for cleaning computers) and that works, but I've only used it for black and white chemistry.

C] All E-6 films of any type (Kodak E200, Fuji Provia 100F, etc) are processed exactly the same for the same processing times in the same chemistry. Briefly, it works like this. Bring chemicals up to temperature. Pour in a pre-wash (plain water to warm up the tank and film) empty tank, pour first developer in tank. Process for proper time, empty tank. Wash, pour in reversal bath, process. Pour in color developer (etc), pre-bleach, bleach, fix, wash, rinse, hang to dry. Detailed instructions are included in the kits.

The most critical of the chemicals is the first developer. The duration of time that the film is in the first developer needs to be as exact as possible as this single step is the most important of the whole developing process. A few seconds over or under here can alter the resulting density or color of the image a good bit. The other chemical steps have a bit more leeway as the processing times aren't quite as critical for these steps.

***********

Another option is the Arista three-step E-6 kit. These are sold by Freestyle Photographic supplies. Generally these aren't as good as the full fledged Kodak kits -- the color can have odd shifts and hues -- but they don't cost as much, they come in smaller sizes, and there's only three chemicals in the kit (compared to the seven in the Kodak kits).

Photo below of how I processed film with one of the Arista one-pint kits. Plastic tray filled with water, aquarium heater and a small pump to circulate the water and keep it evenly heated. Coca-cola bottles (rinsed out well beforehand) with the Arista first developer, color developer and bleach-fix (blix) solutions. A fourth bottle with plain water for the pre-wash. Accurate glass thermometer (lower right) to monitor the temperature. A Jobo daylight film tank (red top) on the left with a "Jobo roller base" in the tray to agitate and spin the tank in the tempered water of the tray.


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M111
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 06/28/06

Loc: Western MA
Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Kona]
      #3195967 - 07/02/09 09:26 PM

Kona gave an excellent overview of color development without a processor. I'll try and add a few things here and there.

While one needn't get a processor to get started developing color I would recommend getting film tanks that would be compatible with a processor should you want to get one down the road. I use a Jobo 1520 tank which will hold two rolls of 120 or two rolls of 35mm(36ex). This tank will work with Kona's method and it will also work with the Jobo CPE2 which is their least expensive processor. Look for used Jobo equipment as the new prices are very high, and as the last film pros jump ship for digital there are bargains to be had. My CPE2 was obtained for $150 and it came with 2 tanks (1 for 4x5) and a bunch of other odds and ends. New they go for around $700. The processor does make things easier and it will also make your results more consistent.

As Kona said, Kodak E6 kits are the best and come in 5-liter size. I would mix small working solutions as needed and have stored the stock chemistry for 5 months without it oxidizing. I also have switched to using 3-bath kits as they are much quicker to mix and use.

If you have never developed film before at all I would really recommend starting with some B&W. It is a lot more forgiving but uses a lot of the same techniques and equipment as for color, if anything just for the practice of loading film onto the reels that go into the tanks. Spooling the film is one of those things that seems impossible when you first try it. But like riding a bike, once you get it you never lose it.


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Nebhunter
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/04/03

Loc: Frostbite Falls
Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: M111]
      #3195990 - 07/02/09 09:44 PM

Tanks to Kona and Brendan for your efforts. I did some B&W but many years ago. I can get some expired B&W film that uses E6 processing and practice with that.

I don't imaging the deal is that much different when using negatives with say the C41 process. I just dropped off 9 rolls of film, and I'm guessing the cost will be about $75 (US funds) so it will add up over time. Yearly cost of maybe $3 to 500.00 with the addition of landscape shots.

It's one of those things - where I would probably still spend that amount with home processing, but it would allow me to shoot way more rolls of film for that amount of money. That's something to consider.

Other than that - what you guys are telling me is that with some practice there is no reason that this can't be done at home - with a minimum investment of say $350 with used equipment and a Kodak kit? Small area in the basement. A place to hide and enjoy this hobby (passion) in a new way.

Thanks guys and post if you think of anything else. Heck - if I got good at it I could do a part time business with E6 processing? It would beat going to work part time - semi retired I am.

Igor


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M111
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 06/28/06

Loc: Western MA
Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Nebhunter]
      #3196026 - 07/02/09 10:05 PM

With the manual method you could get started for under $100. My used Jobo kit all together was less than $200. The 5-liter Kodak kit is about $55 and will process about 45 rolls of 120 or 135.

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Nebhunter
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/04/03

Loc: Frostbite Falls
Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: M111]
      #3196058 - 07/02/09 10:20 PM

I'm looking on Ebay right now. I would like the good equipment to ensure the best possible results. I will compare the cost with the push process from this last run - but it looks like it would pay for itself in shooting 40 rolls and paying for processing at the lab. This does not include fuel and time for dropping off and picking up the film.

After that I would save about $300 a year on lab fees + - ? Not a bad deal in my books.

Igor


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Nebhunter
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/04/03

Loc: Frostbite Falls
Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: M111]
      #3196124 - 07/02/09 10:58 PM

I found some stuff under "film processing" on Ebay - some stainless steel tanks - very little jobo stuff, one is missing a tank lid.

The listing for stainless reels and tanks, and the other for stainless clips look interesting - useful and cheap. I'm sure a lot of this stuff could be bought over time, looking for the good stuff. This ensures I get all the handy things that are good to have.

Would either of you (Kona) be so kind as to have a look on Ebay, and PM me with any items that appear to be worthwhile grabbing at the price for future use. I'm not looking for the whole deal right now - just those odds and ends that are harder to find and in good condition.

Right now I'm thinking those stainless clips would be a good idea, and possibly the stainless tanks and reels. Price is right - cheap to my way of thinking for good stainless gear. Some of this stuff is auction and ending soon, so if your still on the forums, please let me know.

Igor


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Kona
member


Reged: 10/22/08

Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Nebhunter]
      #3196244 - 07/03/09 12:13 AM

Igor,

Jobo equipment will be a little difficult to find...they discontinued the processors two years ago if I remember right. The Jobo tanks and reels can still be found new yet they're a bit expensive.

Stainless tanks and reels are nice. I use some stainless steel reels for medium format 120 film as processing quality is excellent with them -- but stainless steel reels can be a little finicky. The reels load from the center to the outside edge, and sometimes you get a roll of film that just won't load and wants to try your patience. The biggest pitfall by far is if a stainless reel is dropped -- if the reel is bent the slightest bit it's toast as the film will never load correctly again.

To begin with I'd suggest a plastic tank and reel like the Paterson Super System 4 tanks. I've literally developed hundreds of rolls of black and white film in mine (they're fine for color too). Plastic reels are a bit easier to load -- film is started on the outside edge of the reel, then the reel grabs the film and pulls it into the center of the reel. The Paterson tanks also fill and drain quickly, and do a fantastic job for washing film.

If you go for a plastic tank, buy a tank and reel new. They're not very expensive -- $25 for the Paterson 'Universal' that holds two 35mm reels. Don't get a used tank as you don't know what's been in it and some of the older tanks with the screw-on lid and edge gaskets leak.


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Mopman
sage
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Reged: 10/14/06

Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Nebhunter]
      #3196270 - 07/03/09 12:40 AM

I just recently tried E-6 processing at home for the first time. I needed to develop short pieces (2 to 3 frames long) of E200 film shot w/ my Schmidt camera; these films are too short to take to your local drug store. Also, I wanted fast turn around / feedback. The local shop took 1 1/2 weeks for my last roll of E-6 film; if you are learning AP, that's too long.

I bought Kodak Single Use Kit #1077643 (makes 5 liters which does a lot of rolls of film) from Adorama for $58.50 http://www.adorama.com/KKE6SU5L.html You don't have to make up all 5 liters worth at once, but you still end up with a lot of bottles to store.

A few observations: Temperature is VERY critical in the first few baths (like plus or minus 1/2 *F !!!). I don't think adjusting developing time for temperature works with the kit I used anyway. I used a JOBO bath. I think you could build your own temperture bath, but you will need good control.

I think you would want to try B&W processing first. Other than temperature control, it was really no more difficult than B&W developing; there are many more steps however. You will need all the same basic equipment (dark bag, tanks and reels, a good thermometer, film clips, graduated cylinders, lots of 500 ml bottles that seal well).

I was pleased with the results, and it was fun However the color was shifted towards the red a bit. For Astrophptography no big deal, color correction after scanning was no problem.

My two cents though: for general photography, I think a Pro Lab would be much more consistent (and as long as available, the way to go). For AP, E-6 at home developing is very doable and has advantages.

Hope this helps! Gary


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Mopman
sage
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Reged: 10/14/06

Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Mopman]
      #3196273 - 07/03/09 12:51 AM

Here is a link to Kodaks Tech Data for their Single Use Kit
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/ti2443/ti2443.pdf

This will give you a good idea of what E-6 processing at home is about.


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Nebhunter
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/04/03

Loc: Frostbite Falls
Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Mopman]
      #3196326 - 07/03/09 01:44 AM

Yes it does Gary, and thanks for the link to Kodak. Everything will really depend upon my lab. They have ruined or crudded up every single frame of every roll of 120 film to date. Actually - some came out really well - I must apologize - but they ended up being the underexposed or aborted frames due to an airplane or clouds. Figures.

They have fixed up the E6 machine - a new guy enthusiastic about my astro work, and he has 6 rolls for E6, and 3 for B&W. If it turns out to be good, then I will stick with the lab. Sure stuff will happen - but not every time.

Consider that I'm now shooting with 2 cameras - higher f stops, and longer exposures from 90 to 120 minutes. If I get all 10 frames - that can add up to 20 hours of exposure time. That's why I shoot 2 cameras with different lenses. It's 20 hours instead of 40. I cannot risk doing a poor job myself, but I cannot tolerate the lab continuously mucking up my film.

If I do the processing - I will go all the way with one of those complete systems with heaters, tanks, lift trays - the works. Then I can do E6 - B&W - all my landscape shots. I have no problem in sticking with E100 and E200 film for my colour work. I love that film - for everything.

Igor


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Nebhunter
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/04/03

Loc: Frostbite Falls
Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Kona]
      #3196332 - 07/03/09 01:53 AM

Kona you have been very helpful with your information - thank you.

As mentioned in my other posts it will all depend upon the lab - and how well the film comes out. Enough is enough - and if there are problems - then I will continue on and find a complete system. There are 3 on Ebay right now - and look to be in good condition. I'm sure more will come along, or last resort - find a store that still has a new one.

Thanks again for your time and effort putting it all down for us.

Igor


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Nightfly
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 06/20/07

Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Nebhunter]
      #3196572 - 07/03/09 08:03 AM

Very interesting discussion. I'm excited about not sending my E-6 work out. I agree the plastic Peterson tanks would be best as they handle the film well and easier to load over the stainless. I used one years ago and it was a good experience.

I would love to discuss further but I am away most of this weekend. I will chime in when I can. Thanks to all who have contributed. Your all getting me excited about the possibilities. Now, if only these clouds will part and , oh yea, something about the Moon.........


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M111
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 06/28/06

Loc: Western MA
Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Nightfly]
      #3196706 - 07/03/09 09:31 AM

+1 on Paterson reels being the easiest to load. They have the little bearings in them that move the film along as you ratchet the reel rather than having to use your thumbs like clutches. I develop all my B&W in a Paterson tank.

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Nebhunter
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/04/03

Loc: Frostbite Falls
Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Nightfly]
      #3198786 - 07/04/09 02:06 PM

Well - it's official. I will now be looking at setting up my own E6 processing in house. Today was the LAST STRAW. After being re-assured by the lab that the E6 machine was running well with no problems - guess what?

This is the third time - successive - that the machine embedded crud into the film, and has put tractor marks across it. No charge for us screwing up your film sir - have a nice day.

I will post the frames regardless once I get them scanned over the next couple of days, so you can see what's happened. Nothing like getting back your film with treasured Milky Way exposures running at 110 minutes each - with lines, streaks and crud on them.

I'm not playing around with this - and will be looking for a complete Jobo system with pumps, heaters, tanks etc. Work will start on a dark room in the basement. E6 processing and B&W - hear I come.

Firefly


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Kona
member


Reged: 10/22/08

Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Nebhunter]
      #3198910 - 07/04/09 03:21 PM

Being a darkroom fanatic myself, perhaps I could help with ideas or suggestions should you need them.

For loading film in developing tanks -- at least initially -- you might like to try a film changing tent like those from Harrison. You don't have to be in a absolutely pitch black room to load film with one of these. The Harrison looks like a tiny camping tent only it has sleeves to fit your arms in to handle the film inside. Film can be loaded onto reels and tanks (the inside of the tent is absolutely light-tight) while you're still in comfortable daylight. The Harrisons are expensive though. A much less costly alternative is the Calumet "Changing Room".

The tents are really nice to have compared to the still cheaper film changing bags, which are generally hot, clammy (there is little air space inside these) and the bag material on top of your hands gets in the way.

With a tent and a daylight-type developing tank, you can easily process film and try out the process without yet going into a full darkroom setup.

If you're really, really, really dedicated, you could get a PhotoTherm Sidekick processor. These are still made and supported. Completely automatic, not terribly big either (they look to be comparable to a Jobo CPP). The results with one of these processors would be as good as, if not *better* than most labs.

Be prepared though, as at $5,000 new it'll cost you as much as a high end telescope mount!


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Nebhunter
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/04/03

Loc: Frostbite Falls
Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Kona]
      #3199185 - 07/04/09 06:08 PM

It must be fate that you showed up at this time? Thank you for your suggestions, and I will "lean" on you as things develop - no pun intended.

I will google those tents as they sound ideal. I'm actually quite anxious to get developing - as my film shows various levels of background colour. Once I get my exposure intervals set for the various types of targets and f stops - I can play around with the timing to see what happens during developing.

Well it wasn't a total waste at the photo store today - found a large Logan light box for cheap. I will ask this of you. When and if you see something in your travels or on the "net" that should work for me - please let me know. I would be pleased to have guidance to get the right stuff.

Igor


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Jimmy2K63
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 04/26/09

Loc: Alberta, Canada
Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Nebhunter]
      #3217169 - 07/14/09 09:43 AM

I am partial to the steel tanks myself. Once you've used a practice roll of film and closed your eyes loading the reel, it's really not too bad, you just have to get used to the curl of the film as the reels take it up. If you hear a click, back out and be consistent loading it again.

A thermally adjusted water bath to keep your processing chemicals is the key to temperature control. Let it all stabilize for a few hours and all will be fine.

Having worked in a lab, the way we did this stuff was in a longitudinal processor. The film lead was attached to plastic cards, and a gear train would pull the card through the processor (right from the canister, in a light sealed box). The multi-stage process was timed via the length of the film travel, but has been pointed out, the critical thing is the initial color development, and the reversal processing. Once you stop the process (ph change), no further development takes place, and it's a lot less time-temp dependent.

I still remember the smell of these chemicals when we cleaned the processor weekly, the smell of glacial acetic acid is like the most overwhelming vinegar your nose has ever wiffed. Those chemicals will stain badly too. Also chemicals have a short shelf life, especially the developing agents so best just to mix a one-shot usage, or process a lot at a time.

I used to process my own more out of interest than out of need, or to play with push-processing, something commercial processors are not always fond to do. The way we did it was to turn up the temperature on the developing tanks (end of the day after all the runs), let it stabilize and do it that, it was not physically possible to change the rate the film moved through the processor.

Hope this helps.


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Happy Birthday Achernar
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Kona]
      #3218168 - 07/14/09 07:11 PM

They can be tricky to learn how to use for a rank beginner, but after switching from a Patterson plastic developing tank I came to like the stainless steel tanks and reels a lot better. He will find a couple of junk rolls of film to be useful to get used to loading reels in total darkness. From there, it's not that big of a leap to developing film in total darkness in open tanks or trays. Plastic reels must be bone dry or you have big trouble on your hands with "moons" on your film or worse. Unless they are beat up, I found stainless steel reels easy to load with film. Out of thousands of rolls of both black and white and color slide film, I only damaged one or two rolls by loading the reel incorrectly. I messed up many more with plastic reels before I got the hang of loading them.

A good way to make a very effective film washer for users of stainless steel tanks and reels is to take a length of 4-inch PVC sewer pipe, glue an end cap on one end, drill a hole and then insert the hose from one of those gadgets hair dressers use. I had found them in stores made of rubber and plastic, and I cut off the head, stuck the end of the hose into the pipe and the other end onto the faucet. In no time you have an effective film washer that pushes out all the left over chemicals without using a torrent of water. The plastic Patterson tanks however work great with just a hose inserted into the middle tube, which achieves the same result.

Taras


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Jimmy2K63
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 04/26/09

Loc: Alberta, Canada
Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Achernar]
      #3219013 - 07/15/09 09:32 AM

Back when I did E6 processing at home it was not really economically viable to do so. The kit was a little pricey, but today this might be better just because its harder to find film processors. The chemicals will keep with the exception of the developer and the reverser, which will oxidize rapidly after exposed to air, and also in the process of silver removal will tend to precipitate out to a degree. I really don't know how many rolls one would have to do to make it viable from an economic standpointo, but if you enjoy the satisfaction of doing it, then that helps. Problem is one puts a lot of time into collecting photons and then it's so easy to screw them up in the processing, kinked film on a reel, half moons you referred to, stripped sprockets, etc.

And as for loading film into the cannister, a simple daylight change bag should do, or a light box with sleeves. Throw a bottle opener and a pair of scissors in there and you're away. Once you have it in the tank and sealed, you can take your time waiting for chemicals to come to temp, etc.


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Rick Thurmond
sage


Reged: 10/30/06

Loc: California
Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Nebhunter]
      #3226671 - 07/19/09 12:45 PM

For two years I lived 300 yards from New Mexico Skies and developed all my own E-6 film and a lot of film for astrophotographers staying at New Mexico Skies. Almost all of it was E200, with some Provia 400.
I use a Jobo CPP-2. I've developed 35mm, 120, and 4x5 film with that machine, and it works great. Temperature regulation is easy, and with the lift processing is easy. Since moving to California I've been using a lab for my E-6 though they are now going through a change of ownership so I might be going back to developing film myself. Using a lab has the advantage of being able to develop a single roll without having to worry about what to do with five liters of chemicals. But if you develop enough film to use up five liters in a month, doing it at home works great. I tried mixing half batches but that was a lot of work, and I think the consistency was better if I mixed the whole kit.

I always used Kodak chemicals and mixed them up in floating-lid containers. For E-6 it is useful to have access to hot and cold water though for everything else I do with the Jobo, cold water is sufficient. For my own work I always used normal development but some customers requested push processing, which is just extra time in the first developer.

I also use the Jobo for black and white film and color negative film. Mostly these days I use it for prints: Ilfochrome, RA-4, and black and white.


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Nebhunter
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/04/03

Loc: Frostbite Falls
Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Rick Thurmond]
      #3227498 - 07/19/09 10:28 PM

Wow, I just had a good laugh. A Newbie. Welcome to CN Rick, and if I may, give a small introduction to this small but enthusiastic group. Actually, I will leave that up to Jim - aka Nightfly - who has had many exchanges with you on the "AP" forums. I've sat mostly on the sidelines listening for a change at AP.

The knowledge and experience you bring to this group will be well received. I would even suggest some stories on your efforts with hypered Tech Pan film, and tri-coloured shots. We have been focusing mainly on E200 and other film types, but very little has been done by us with B&W.

I have 3 rolls of Ilford HP5+ for my Pentax 67 and hope to use it on some of the dark nebulae in the next few days. Filters and tri-colour would be a whole new experience for me, and I'm enthusiastic about the idea.

This thread has come about due to problems with some labs - mainly on my end where every single roll of film has been either ruined, marked, or crudded up by the lab. I've since found a dip and dunk lab. The recent upheaval from Kodak has also pushed this topic ahead. We are both now in the same boat to some degree. We are using up our remaining film stocks.

Again welcome, and please share with us.

Igor


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Nightfly
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Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Nebhunter]
      #3227894 - 07/20/09 06:48 AM

Hello all,

Rick's got allot of experience in the film photography and astrophotography field. Don't let the "newbie" designator or his post count fool you. If you were ever on the Film Astrophotographer's Yahoo group you would know this already.

I've enjoyed Rick's Technical Pan images taken through his C-14. He is perhaps the last Hypered TP astrophotographer on the planet, so that makes his work special in my view. He likes to produce tri-color images from RGB filtered exposures. This is classic astrophotography!


Rick, we have a spectrum of members here, from those just starting out, to seasoned veterans. We are looking forward to you sharing your work and helping all of us learn from your experience.

Jim


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Jim847
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Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Jimmy2K63]
      #4184734 - 11/14/10 10:40 AM

A question from a newbee if you please. Where do you buy your film from? I'm located in Chicago and have used B&H in New York for some things online. I am also interested in processing supplies as well. Hope I'm not being ignorant and hijacking the thread but figured this purtained to the thread.

Jim


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TxStars
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Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Jim847]
      #4184785 - 11/14/10 11:06 AM

I like Freestyle:
http://www.freestylephoto.biz/


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Geo.
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Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Jim847]
      #4205595 - 11/23/10 06:29 PM

I'd vote Freestyle too. The service is fine and they seem to really be committed to "chemical" photography. Although they aren't going to help you with your Kodachrome, either. They have some interesting "cross processing" films intended to be processed and scanned.

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Retsub
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Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Jimmy2K63]
      #4472472 - 03/25/11 12:28 AM

I have several Kodak Hobby Packs for E-6. How long would be the normal shelf life of them be ? They have always been stored in my house closet. Thanks. *BW*

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Nebhunter
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Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Retsub]
      #4474722 - 03/26/11 01:00 AM

If the closet is cool and dry - then somewhere around the expiry date printed on the package for maximum colour density. After that I would say the density would start to slowly drop.

Keep it in the fridge and it will last longer. Keep it in the freezer - indefinitely - but in a good plastic container and away from the walls of the freezer where ice can form.

Also, great to see another possible film shooter, and welcome.

Igor


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pbunn
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Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Jimmy2K63]
      #4701632 - 07/19/11 09:10 PM

I have a Jobo system in storage with multiple tanks and bottles. It worked fine when it was packed away a couple of years ago. I'd let it go very reasonable to someone who can use it.

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Nightfly
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Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: pbunn]
      #4701647 - 07/19/11 09:19 PM

I've been offered one recently and will be going that route, but there are a few folks here that might like your offer.

What do you say guys, any one interested? If no one bites I might have to!

PM me pbunn with what you'd like for it and if no one bites, I'll think it over.

Thanks

Jim


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Rick Thurmond
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Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Nightfly]
      #4701905 - 07/19/11 11:12 PM

These are great systems. I've had a CPP-2 for the whole time I've been interested in photography. I have used it for developing film (E-6, C41 and b/w). I no longer use it for color film but I still use it for my black and white film. I used it for all of my Ilfochrome prints and now that Ilfochrome is gone I use it for RA-4 and b/w prints. No complaints, though I've worn out a few parts from heavy use.
Rick


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Dave Kodama
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Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Rick Thurmond]
      #4702537 - 07/20/11 10:21 AM

One of these days I'll probably break down and get one. Thus far, I've just been using your basic stainless steel tanks or open trays.

What I am really interested in, however, is if anyone has a solution for doing developing "in the field" (at my observatory) where I have limited running water. I have a 5-gallon tank that I can fill with water and use for a run, but don't want to go bigger than that. That means a tank that takes minimal chemicals and washing system that doesn't require Lake Michigan to wash the film. And I probably need to transport the waste back home with me...

And related to that -- can anyone advise the best way to process extremely small quantities of loose film (like single frame medium format "chips") in a light-sealed tank? These chips can be very curly (especially hypered Tech Pan). I've been doing those in open trays, but this is so inconvenient, it has been causing me to avoid shooting with my Schmidt camera.

Dave


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SteveNH
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Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Dave Kodama]
      #4858693 - 10/13/11 03:25 AM

Greetings, Dave!

These Film Astrophotography threads are so intriguing that I just had to pipe in (if you are still there!). I am the former owner of a custom color lab in California called Peninsula Photographics. We used to process E-6 and C-41 using dip-and dunk Hostert and Refrema machines, and had a 3-1/2 gallon sink line for custom black and white. I closed the lab in 2004, after 22 years in the business, so hearing of these films and processes hit a nostalgic cord in me!

To address your question, the E-6 process has one single all-important critical step that pretty much determines the consistency and fidelity of the processed image. That step is the first developer. Do this right and you'll be forgiven for temperature variations of +/- 2 degrees F for the rest of the steps - in fact, once you're past the color developer, you can even do the rest of the process at room temperature if you had to (though not recommended)! The first developer must be fresh, and temperature controlled to +/- 1/4 degree F. Agitation must be extremely consistent, and the process timed to a few seconds if possible, as you start the water rinse cycle. The rest of the steps can be done in more relaxed conditions, as long as temperature is kept within reasonable limits, e.g. between 80 to 90F. (It is preferable to keep the first wash and reversal bath close to 100F if possible.)

You will need to take two 5 gallon tanks or bottles of water with you. One for processing and the other for a tempering bath and temperature control. Back in the days before I opened my custom lab, I ran a photo lab for a scientific research center that always had insufficient funding. Therefore we had no automatic temperature control device, so I had to use a manually controlled hot water bath to do my color processing. Water has lots of thermal inertia, so once you get the bath temperature right, it can be controlled within tolerance for the duration of the critical first developer step by strategic additions of very hot water. The bath tank must be large enough to submerse all your chemistry bottles and your 16 oz. developing tank. You’ll need a simmering pot of hot water on a portable butane cooker so you can add scoops of it into the water bath while stirring, as necessary to keep the temperature at 100.5F for the duration of the first developer step, which for non push/pull is 6 minutes. After that, you’re home free! For washes, you can save quite a bit of water by filling and emptying the tank at 1 or 2 minute intervals, with agitation, about 5 or ten times – you do not need running water.

To develop the film chips, I would recommend using plastic 120 reels. Find one that is precisely made and does not buckle film, and yet is not so loose that the film rattles. Carefully and slowly slide your chip almost but not quite into the center of the reel, pinching the reel lightly with your thumb and index finger where the leading edge of the film passes each crossbar. It will help greatly if you trim off the leading corners of the film chip at an angle to bevel it. Just make sure the reels are absolutely dry before loading! You probably already know this from experience, but the base side is relatively immune to fingerprints, whereas great care must be used to avoid touching the emulsion. If your fingers are dry, no harm is done if you do touch the emulsion constantly moving across it, but once your finger stops in one position – that’s when damage occurs. You must make sure you fill the tank completely with chemistry to assure that agitation will not create currents that can dislodge the film chip. You would of course want to do a dry run with exposed film and water to see how it works.

Have fun!
Steve

Edited by SteveNH (10/13/11 12:15 PM)


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Dave Kodama
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Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: SteveNH]
      #4859051 - 10/13/11 11:17 AM

Steve,

Yes, I'm still "here." Thanks for all your detailed information. Those tips sound very helpful. Although it sounds impractical for me to do this at my observatory where I don't have running water (or drains), I may still attempt color processing at home.

With the apparently imminent demise of Kodak, do you know if there is any practical alternative to Kodak chemistry? I've never seen any Fuji chemicals for sale. I have heard of other smaller (European?) companies, but never actually seen it for sale at the photo stores I go to.

Perhaps at my observatory I'll stick to at most black and white processing.

Dave


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Giorgos
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Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Dave Kodama]
      #4859149 - 10/13/11 12:37 PM

Try tetenal chemicals...

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SteveNH
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Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Dave Kodama]
      #4859199 - 10/13/11 01:04 PM

Dave,

In the commercial market a few years back, Fuji-Hunt chemistry was the most prominent competitor to Kodak. I don't know the details of the connection with Hunt, but I think nowadays the chemistry is distributed from the Fujifilm company itself. It was always much cheaper than Kodak, and they tried hard to pull us over to their account, but the quality, although good, was inconsistent at the time, and I couldn't afford to deal with that issue so I never strayed from Kodak. Recently though, Fuji has become the leader in supplying photo labs with high quality consistent chemistry and control strips, no different from the way Kodak used to be. But I don't know if they market smaller portions for individual use, nor do I know if they still make E-6 chemistry. In fact, I was surprised that these threads were still active to this current year! I would contact a Fuji rep to find out details of availability and distribution.

You're right - black and white would be a piece of cake at your observatory!

Steve


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Dave Kodama
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Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: SteveNH]
      #4859357 - 10/13/11 02:29 PM

Thanks everyone. I'll check out Tetenal. I've heard of them but not tried it (or seen it on local shelves).

Regarding Fuji, my local photo place (Pro Photo in Irvine, CA) still processes film, and it sounded like Fuji was very aggressive in making sure they stayed in the business of doing processing, providing equipment at low cost, etc.

Dave


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KB2QQM
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Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Jimmy2K63]
      #5083071 - 02/21/12 01:13 AM

Hi,

I am new to the Astro section and just getting back into astronomy after a bit of a lapse.

I buy all my film and stuff from:

digitaltruth.com

and my favorite:

freestylephoto.biz

I liked "Kona's" setup. That's what I use at home too. fish tank thermometer and it always turns out great. Although I am more of a B&W film guy.

You can get E6 chemicals from freestyle. It comes in the pint, quart or gallon sizes. I got the quart size and it was $33.00 which they indicate will do 10 rolls of Medium Format film. I have 8 more rolls to do.
The E6 kit is from Arista. It works great. A premix of 3 chemicals. I am happy with the results.

I have also been making my own B&W developer: PaRodinal
out of Acetaminophen tablets, Drain cleaner (Lye) and Sodium Sulfite from PhotographersFormulary.com

cheers

Greg


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Nebhunter
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Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: KB2QQM]
      #5098719 - 03/01/12 01:37 AM

Welcome Greg and let us know how that home brewed astro film turns out. You may want to experiment with various exposures and push processing as well depending upon the target.

igor


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Glen A W
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Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Nebhunter]
      #5477510 - 10/18/12 06:15 PM

I used to develop E6 using Kodak hobby-pack chemicals back when I was a kid. Looking at the slides now, they all still look great except one batch which has turned almost clear. I enjoyed processing the film and it seemed easy. I hope to try it again sometime soon. GW

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Nebhunter
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Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Glen A W]
      #5482432 - 10/21/12 05:56 PM

Getting chemicals is becoming an issue. The Arista looks to be doing a good job with less processing involved. I hope to try it soon.

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gillmj24
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Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Nebhunter]
      #6156778 - 10/25/13 03:35 AM

Bump wish I found this thread a long time ago!

I've gotten into film the last year and developed my own e6 in a jobo processor. I found Kodak single use chemistry from about 2009 on ebay and after a test roll of 120 ektachrome that expired over 20 years ago - still a usable result- I developed my fresh 4x5 Fuji slides and they came out very nicely. The jobo makes everything manumatic but it was still a day's worth of activity to mix the chems and set everything up the first time and then clean up the kitchen afterward.

I have a sinar C 4x5 and a mamiya 645 and rz67. I'm late to the game having gone to film for the sensor size of the larger formats as my digital is 35mm format already. Bought an Epson film scanner but haven't used it yet.

I know Pentax 67 was a standard mount for astronomy as astro-physics' field flattener selection would indicate. Can you adapt that to the mamiya mount I wonder.


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TxStars
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Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: gillmj24]
      #6159199 - 10/26/13 01:35 PM

You might be able to use the AP reducer with the proper spacing.
You would want to measure the Pentax body and make an adapter that makes the spacing the same with the Mamiya.


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keithlt
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Reged: 12/21/13

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Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: TxStars]
      #6292068 - 01/04/14 02:41 PM Attachment (14 downloads)

e-6 film was so much fun for a/p and home development,i used to push the ASA over 10000 chemically buy adding time in the 1st chemical.ok so i just found a color side i took in 1982 of my chemicals and a 20x32 poaster blowup of m-42 done hand guided through a 6" newtonion and pentax s1a.it funny because i just cleaned up the telescope and mount last week.i cant wait to order new equipment and start all over.(this time goto and dslr)

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searching4
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Loc: So.Bay\Long Beach, Ca
Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: keithlt]
      #6461405 - 04/12/14 12:43 AM

Hi. Go to Freestyle.com. They are in Hollywood Ca. They have all the supplies you will need. Just found an unopened box of E-6... going to have to get some slide film. It's really easy with the Arista chems. 60 sec pre wash, 6.5 min. for the 1st dev., 4.5 min for the color dev.,1st wash 2 min., blix 10 min final wash 5 min. About a half hour. Hope this helped

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Happy Birthday Achernar
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Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Nebhunter]
      #6464555 - 04/13/14 08:00 PM

Whatever kind of developing tank and reels you choose, practice loading the reels with a junk roll of film first. It is very important to load the reels correctly, otherwise your film will be damaged because of it contacting itself or the film getting marked up by improper handling. Practice until you can do it in total darkness. Most films must be developed in total darkness because they respond to the entire visible spectrum, and you must also make sure the room where you are loading the reels is completely blacked out to avoid ruining your film. Alternatively, you can use a "changing bag" which is a light proof bag with sleeves. You unzip the bag, insert the film, reels, tank, lid, scissors and something to open the cassettes with.

I developed my own film when I was a young man, and I preferred stainless steel tanks and reels. Once I loaded the reels, put them in the tank and put the lid on, I could then turn on the room lights and pour the pre-wet, first developer, reversal bath, and bleach fix into and out of the tank without fogging the film. Once the bleach-fix step was completed, I took the reels out and washed the film in my film washer before treating the film in a stabilizer solution.

Taras


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TxStars
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Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: Achernar]
      #6464624 - 04/13/14 08:40 PM

Don't forget, Cotton/latex gloves are your friend.
A finger print will show up on the film when developed.


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Nebhunter
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Reged: 10/04/03

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Re: E200 - E6 Home Processing new [Re: gillmj24]
      #6470467 - 04/16/14 08:59 PM

Have fun with the developing. I would love to have a Jobo unit. Don't know about making an adapter - probably less expensive just to get a good P67 camera?? Is it the Epson V600? If you get the Silverfast V8 software for it, you will get much better scans - MUCH better.

Igor


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