Suk Lee
Post Laureate
Reged: 10/07/03
Posts: 4303
Loc: Pleasanton, CA
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Film Astrophotography Forum imaging posting policies:
- all posts, including contest entries, are limited to 800x800 pixels maximum image size, and 100 kilobytes maximum file size
- "inline" HTML calls to external photos must still follow the above policies, as the load time consequences for users on dialups is the same
- the policy of this forum is that this is a convivial community that tries to help/teach each other, so images posted may be further manipulated by other forum members (within reason and good taste please!!!) UNLESS THE POSTER SPECIFICALLY SPECIFIES NOT TO
Happy posting.
Suk
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Dear film fans:
The purpose of this poll is to determine the default behavior people would like to see for this forum with respect to the question:
When I post a picture, what do I want the default behavior to be?
A: I like my photo but feel free to re-process my photo and see what you can do to improve it unless I explicitly state that I do not want it further processed.
or
B: I like my photo the way it is and want to share it with you - please do not re-process unless I explicitly state that you may.
Please vote - I'll leave the poll up until the end of the month (3/31/2006) then the majority will set the default behavior for this forum - and I'll make this post sticky so people will see it (and change the title once the poll is over).
You should feel free to express your opinion but let's operate by the rules of a good brainstorming session:
- argue your position passionately
- but don't personally invest in your position and
- agree to live with the group consensus
Thanks,
Suk
PS: If you are not a regular participant in this forum, please do not vote - that wouldn't be fair, eh? Scouts honor!
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A: Manipulation of others' photos OK unless explicitly unauthorized
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B: Manipulation of others' photos NOT OK unless explicitly authorized
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Edited by Charlie Hein (06/30/08 08:25 PM)
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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 5667
Loc: Bremerton Washington
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Well, If I am incorrect in thinking, forgive me.
But this is a free open group/forum, and if you post a pic, I can assure you someone will try their hand at it. That's OK, cause they didn't take it. Let em play with it, much can be learned form others lending a hand.
Rob
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www.goldmtobservingcenter.com
Providing a great place for amateur astronomers, and ATM's to come and enjoy their hobby.
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wilash
Fairy Godmother
Reged: 09/30/03
Posts: 5746
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I think the tenor of the post is also important. Someone showing a shot is not asking for technical advice. But someone coming here looking for technical adice about a spectific image is in a way asking on how to improve it which maybe the way to process it. However, it would show respect to ask before taking someone's image or have the poster give permission from the get go.
I feel there is little value placed on photography in general and a free and easy hand on taking something from the internet. We should respect the author's copyright and control over their work and ask. You would not go into someones house and redecorate it without permission.
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microbes
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/12/04
Posts: 1191
Loc: Romulus, Sector 12
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I don't post much in this forum, but this goes on in all the AP forums (perhaps there should be a site wide policy about it?). For the most part it doesn't cause a problem. Personally, if someone can re-do one of my shots and show me how to improve it, or point something out by doing it I'm all for it. But that's me, and that's different than speaking for someone else.
I have a feeling that there is way more "right click and copy" happening on this site than most of us think.
My sugestion is that *if* people are going to do it, that the picture be uploaded here and *not* hosted elsewhere. That way the mods can totally delete the reworked picture (instead of just the post) if there is a problem, something they can not do if it is hosted elsewhere.
Not a real answer to the question, but it's my 2 cents worth.
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Dirt Cheap Astronomy
Voyager 114X900 Newt EQ2 * Sky Chief 60X700 EQ1 * Cometron 62X300 EQ1
Sears Ultra Wide 7X50 Binos * Vintage 16X50 Binos EQ1
Books, Barlows, Eyepieces, Camera Adaptors & Other Esoteric Junk.
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lineman_16735
3.14159265
Reged: 12/04/04
Posts: 1498
Loc: At home
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I agree with Will. I just think the polite thing is to ask first. I also think that a lot of folks want help with their images. I am sure in almost all instances the people who alter others images are doing it in a helpful way. Personally I would never do it with out asking first.
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Chris
Meade 2080 ALT/AZ Goto Autostar 494
"quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur"
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JBull
sage
Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 401
Loc: Dallas, TX
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I think it is great that members of this forum take posted images and try to process them in new ways. I'm just learning how to process and I find it interesting to see what can be done. I also like to read about techniques to achieve that end.
I am one that dislikes the "overprocessed" image. i like to see images as raw and "real" as possible. But sometimes the sky fog or vignetting causes a problem and processing is necessary. This forum will help me learn how.
Personally I am thrilled when someone takes an interest in what I'm attempting to do in astrophotography. For all of my posts here I welcome comment, debate, criticism, processing tips, etc.
In defense of Clownfish: he has processed a couple of my images and I welcome that. He has also used an image of mine for other purposes on his own site and also as part of a document on manual guiding. He sent a private message asking permission beforehand.
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Jeff Bullard
Dallas, TX
Check observing forecast for astronomers anywhere in the world:
http://astroforecast.org:8080
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Dave LoPresti
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/25/03
Posts: 1950
Loc: Preston, Connecticut
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I think people should list the preference in signatures or at least the profiles if it matters to them. 
"permission required to alter and repost my images"
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Dave L
Meade 10" SCT
TEC 140 SN291
Coronado SolarMax 90mm <.5Å
WO 80mm ZSFD (10th Ann. red)
Tele Vue Pronto
Coronado PST
Canon 18x50 IS
 Wonderful wife 
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wilash
Fairy Godmother
Reged: 09/30/03
Posts: 5746
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Dave, I think that is a dangerous statement. Why do I need to state I want to keep my copyright? Shouldn't the burden be placed on those that do not?
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JBull
sage
Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 401
Loc: Dallas, TX
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Loosen up tightwads
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Jeff Bullard
Dallas, TX
Check observing forecast for astronomers anywhere in the world:
http://astroforecast.org:8080
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wilash
Fairy Godmother
Reged: 09/30/03
Posts: 5746
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Quote:
Loosen up tightwads
Perhaps you would like to remove the last word in that sentence. Implying people are selfish does not help the conversation. Especially since that the folks who don't agree with you care more for your rights to your work than you do.
Edited by wilash (03/17/06 12:24 AM)
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Suk Lee
Post Laureate
Reged: 10/07/03
Posts: 4303
Loc: Pleasanton, CA
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Will, Jeff, move on... GEEZA LOUI-ZA!!!
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http://www.siliconvalleyskies.com
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Dave LoPresti
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/25/03
Posts: 1950
Loc: Preston, Connecticut
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Will, you shouldn't have to and while some of us are not versed well in copyright laws, maybe we should be educating each other and one way is noting our sigs; a simple insurance policy and friendly reminder to the law?
And no offence taken on my end with your comment directed to me. You could be (of course you are) right that I place the burden on the wrong person. But I never thought anyone would listen to me. 
Ok, even if I'm not much of a photographer, my work should be equally protected. I appreciate that. But we have so many people that encourage others to feel free to work on their posted image here on CN, it becomes habit. Yes, bad habit to some, but friendly help to others.
I guess if I stated I think asking permission first is a given, we'd be on the same page. 
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Dave L
Meade 10" SCT
TEC 140 SN291
Coronado SolarMax 90mm <.5Å
WO 80mm ZSFD (10th Ann. red)
Tele Vue Pronto
Coronado PST
Canon 18x50 IS
Wonderful wife
Edited by Dave LoPresti (03/17/06 12:21 AM)
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wilash
Fairy Godmother
Reged: 09/30/03
Posts: 5746
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Dave, I'm glad you were not offended, because there was no offence implied. I was surprised because it turns my rights to my images over to others. (Sorry for the strong language, but my job is in publishing and I am used to the vocabulary.) But if we make it an "official" policy, then I can see some problems.
BTW, there is a site about macro and microphotography that has strick rules regarding member's rights to manipulate posted images. While the language is strong, it does not limit members helping each other and trying different processing.
http://www.amateurmicroscopy.net/
Got to "Forums & Galleries > Image Galleries > Read First - Image Posting Guidelines. Scoll down toward the bottom.
Sorry, I cannot make a direct link.
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Dave LoPresti
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/25/03
Posts: 1950
Loc: Preston, Connecticut
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That's a good source.
And I see in the copyright section that there is a mention of putting something in your sig "Re-posts Welcome" too. I wasn't too far off. If it's not there, assume it's not welcome. The word assume is seldom preffered but I think here it's ok.
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Dave L
Meade 10" SCT
TEC 140 SN291
Coronado SolarMax 90mm <.5Å
WO 80mm ZSFD (10th Ann. red)
Tele Vue Pronto
Coronado PST
Canon 18x50 IS
Wonderful wife
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raydar
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/06/04
Posts: 679
Loc: Perth Western Australia
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If someone wants to take the time to show me how a picture I posted and thought looked good, can look even better, then great.
It is also great for noobs surfing the forum to see a before and after image and what can be done with processing. This sole fact is what made me want to learn processing.
It is also good for noobs to hear from more than one person on processing. I'm sure most people here are experienced in processing images, but how many people here know everything there is to know about processing images? By having your image played with by another forum member you only have knowledge to gain. Someone may tweak it in a way you didn't know and may reveal detail you never knew was there. I think this is another good reason to allow images to be reprocessed.
Also, it is good for noobs and experienced Aper's to take images and tweak them because it allows us to practice on images, and if that practice pays off, and we make the image look better, then we would obviously want to show and share what we have learned with the others here by reposting the image.
Also, if this was an art forum or the images we were talking about were in the Astrophotography gallery like here
http://www.cloudynights.com/photopost//showgallery.php?cat=526&thumb=1
then fair enough, those images are final images, and should not be touched. But this section of the forums is mostly for education and information sharing and of course posting our achievements. I think assistance should be encouraged, not something that needs permission, after all, someone has taken the their time and expertise to show us another version of what can be done.
I have never seen someone reprocess an image here with a sarcastic "your original image was rubbish and my processing skills are better than yours" mentality.
All the reprocessing that other members here are kind enough to do is done solely for our betterment, and not their egos. So I am grateful for assistance given on these forums and I won't complain on how that assistance comes.
Nearly done, lol.
Also, I understand that some people don't want their images played with, and I respect that totally (each to their own), but if permission needed to be sought I can't see someone asking in the first place.
If I was going to take my time and expertise to show someone what they can do with their image, I would not want to ask and then wait for an answer. I would want to do it right then and their whilst I'm in the mood staring at the picture and thinking of it. By the time I got a response I would have moved with my life.
Having a message in the sig is a good idea.
Regards
Ray
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My Astronomy Site
My Astrophotography Website
Cosmotography Clip
Takahashi Epsilon 160
Losmandy G-11
SBIG ST4
Meade8"SCT/LX-50-Milburn Wedge
NikonF2,Olympus OM1,PentaxSPII,
Western Australia
Edited by raydar (03/17/06 01:43 PM)
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ClownFish
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/26/05
Posts: 5464
Loc: Washington, DC
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One more perspective..
Image processing is done for several reasons.
- Remove vignetting
- Improve faint details
- Enhance contrast
- Reduce light pollution effects
- Remove artifacts
- Fix faulty colors when the medium is at fault
- Artistic rendition
- Scientific enhancement to bring out subtle details
etc...
People edit an image for a variety of reasons.
If someone edits an image in an attempt to learn photoshop or whatever, and someone else with more skill can show them how they goofed, butchered the image, went too far, or just need a few tips, then everyone can learn from this.
CF
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Keep it simple, keep it cheap! Meade LXD75 SN8, Orion Guidescope, Olympus OM-1 and STI Stiletto. Celestron 15x70 Binos and SkyWindow. Learn all about POLAR ALIGNMENT with my Drift Method Tutorial and simulator!!
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Havo
super member
Reged: 02/02/05
Posts: 143
Loc: San Diego, CA
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Post deleted by Havo
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Discovery DHQ 10" f/5.6
Williams Optics 10th Anniversary 80mm f/6.9
Vixen Porta Mount
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ClownFish
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/26/05
Posts: 5464
Loc: Washington, DC
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I don't think anyone here is talking about legal issues. Chapter 107 of Title 18 of the US Code (Copyriight) explicity allows "Fair Use" of material for educational purposes. If I were to take an image from a CN member and then publish a book to make a profit, or to somehow make the original image less valuable commercialy, then that would be a violation. But to use material for non-profit educational puposes, or commentary is not a violation. There's no need to "CYA".
What we're discussing is whether people here will feel less compelled to participate on-line if their work is subjected to public manipulation without their express permission.
CF
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Keep it simple, keep it cheap! Meade LXD75 SN8, Orion Guidescope, Olympus OM-1 and STI Stiletto. Celestron 15x70 Binos and SkyWindow. Learn all about POLAR ALIGNMENT with my Drift Method Tutorial and simulator!!
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Suk Lee
Post Laureate
Reged: 10/07/03
Posts: 4303
Loc: Pleasanton, CA
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Quote:
It is almost impossible to give global permission for something and then take it back. Even statements like “we give permission for everything but…” are useless. Anything after the but is ignored.
Actually, in the case of this forum, enforcement is easy.
If somebody contravenes our agreement, I'll just delete the offending post. It's already happened once in this thread.
Further abuse will lead to banning from the forum.
CN is not s.a.a. and we will keep it from becoming that type of fractious place.
That's why the mods make the big bucks 
Suk
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http://www.siliconvalleyskies.com
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raydar
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/06/04
Posts: 679
Loc: Perth Western Australia
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Quote:
You would not go into someones house and redecorate it without permission.
Hi Wilash,
Just a detail in relation to your analogy.
You are right that it would be rude to go into someone's lounge room and redecorate. But it is a vastly different circumstance 
The forums are an educational knowledge sharing facility. My lounge room is not.
Lounge rooms are not the focus of questions and knowledge, whereas the forums are.
As mentioned earlier if someone posts an image in the Gallery section of this site, or on some other art site then fair enough. But in a section which is dedicated to learning and teaching I think it is okay. 
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My Astronomy Site
My Astrophotography Website
Cosmotography Clip
Takahashi Epsilon 160
Losmandy G-11
SBIG ST4
Meade8"SCT/LX-50-Milburn Wedge
NikonF2,Olympus OM1,PentaxSPII,
Western Australia
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