Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1148
Loc: Amarillo, TX
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Since I'm considering looking at a new camera for strictly planetary imaging, I'd like to get some opinions and hope its ok to post in the forum. One big difference is the price, with the Firewire being about 1/3 the cost of the Lumenera. My ToUcam 740k days are numbered, and I've talked my wife into letting me get a new camera.  What do you guys think? If I purchased the Firewire, I could get another, faster laptop (mine is about 4 years old, Celeron processor!  ) for the total price of the Lumenera. But, if I buy a camera, I want to buy the best I can afford (about $1000.00 according to the wife)for planetary imaging. All opinions appreciated.
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Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
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iceman
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 4221
Loc: Gosford, Australia
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I guess it might come down to how much you want to spend.
Some people have upgraded from the DMK to the SkyNyx (Paul Haese is one) and swears by the move. Sean Walker has recently reviewed the DMK (Oct S&T) and (not quoting directly) says that for the price point and features, the DMK is the best planetary imager you can get.
The extra dynamic range on the Lumenera would be good, but according to Sean, only really useful on high dynamic range objects like the Sun in H-alpha. I'm sure it would also be good on parts of the moon in different light as well.
By the time you add filter wheels + RGB filters, the cost increases significantly so don't forget to add that into your equations. Those extra pieces of gear end up costing more than the camera itself in the case of the DMK - moreso if you get an automatic/motorised filter wheel as opposed to a manual one.
The other thing to consider, is that if you do have an old laptop, you may not be able to utilise the extra features (faster frames rates) of either new camera if it has trouble capturing and storing the data fast enough.
Damian Peach uses a SkyNyx, and most that have upgraded, have done so for that reason alone. Knowing the research Damian does into every aspect of his planetary imaging, there's no doubt he's weighed up the pros and cons of every imager on the market, and if he's chosen that one, there must be more than one reason why.
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Mike
. My Bio | My Jupiter 2007 Gallery | My Image Gallery
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Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1148
Loc: Amarillo, TX
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Thanks, that is great info. I guess the DMX is like the SKynyx and comes in both color and monochrome, so you would have your choice of having to use filters or not. But, everyone I know who knows anything says to go with the monochrome and filters. But, I also see many people who have the Lumenera who come no where close to what others with the same set up are getting.
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Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
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Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1148
Loc: Amarillo, TX
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One other thing, has anyone used the DMX with microsoft Vista?
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Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
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Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1148
Loc: Amarillo, TX
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Well, from what I can find, the software for the DMX is only for XP, and my current laptop would be to slow to fully appreciate either the DMX or the Lumenera, so this is the laptop I would be getting for the sole purpose of using with the DMX or Lumenera. What do you guys think? Would this cover the bases to get the most out of the camera...
PROCESSOR Mobile AMD Sempron™ 3500+ (1.8GHz/512KB) edit
OPERATING SYSTEM Genuine Windows® XP Home edit
LCD PANEL 15.4 inch Wide Screen XGA Display edit
MEMORY 1GB DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz, 2 Dimm edit
HARD DRIVE Size: 60GB SATA Hard Drive (5400RPM) edit
OPTICAL DRIVE 24X CD Burner/DVD Combo Drive edit
VIDEO CARD ATI RADEON® Xpress1150 256MB HyperMemory™ (Integrated
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Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
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rumples riot
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/01/04
Posts: 2234
Loc: South Australia
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I have used the DMK with Vista, works fine and drivers are compatible.
I went to the Skynyx as a stop gap for the next year or two. It is a better camera than the DMK for several reasons. Noise and well depth are two on the top of the list. Skynyx has very low noise and this results in the images I have been attaining. The well depth is greater and this means that more detail can be obtained by fewer frames. There are other side line benefits to great well depth too.
I did think of getting the Point Grey camera that Anthony uses, but I think things will change fairly rapidly in the next year and did not want to spend that much money.
Fire wire is good because of the speed in data transfer. With the Skynyx I have found that while I can get high speeds on Jupiter (45fps) it does tend to get a bottle neck with the USB 2 format. I never got this problem with the DMK. It can be sorted by using a RAM drive, but this is more software that you need to install.
Generally though I like the way the data is collected in the Skynyx and can recommend it as a planetary imaging camera. If you don't want to expend a lot of money go with the DMK because as Mike said there are other things that need to be bought also.
That machine would be fine.
Yes DMK comes in colour and mono. Check out the Imaging Source pages.
Best of luck with your selection.
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EARTH AND COSMOS
My Solar System Imaging BLOG
How to peltier cool a C14 SCT
SOUTH CELESTIAL POLE
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Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1148
Loc: Amarillo, TX
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Thanks for the information Paul. Just finished purchasing the laptop, which I'll need for either camera. I went with XP and not Vista. I'll sleep on which camera. I have a lot of respect for some people's opinon I've been discussing this with in private. One really likes the DMX and ranks it up there with the Lumenera, the other thinks the Lumenera is the only way to go, both agree on monochrome. I'm real wary of going to monochrome. I've had what I consider such great luck with my Toucam, I am so used to using it and love the ease of using it. Going with monochrome would set me way back on the learning curve.
Joel
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Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
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rumples riot
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/01/04
Posts: 2234
Loc: South Australia
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Nothing good comes without some sacrifice and learning.
Best of luck.
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EARTH AND COSMOS
My Solar System Imaging BLOG
How to peltier cool a C14 SCT
SOUTH CELESTIAL POLE
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Bird
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/07/03
Posts: 2601
Loc: Canberra, Australia
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It really comes down to a choice between USB and Firewire, you'll find similar features on cameras with either interface. ie the Dragonfly Express (firewire) is very similar in features and sensitivity to the Skynyx (usb2). I've compared notes with Damian on our cameras, and after compensating for mirror size and exposure there's very little difference between them.
For my money the firewire bus is a much better choice than USB for video, simply because there's a published and well supported firewire video standard, whereas there's no similar standard for USB video.
This means:
- All firewire cameras speak the same protocol, so you have a wider choice of
applications to use, but all usb video cameras are different and have different features.
- The firewire video spec means that you can program the camera directly if you're that way inclined. Very few (if any) usb cameras let you talk directly to the camera. This means that more 3rd party software will be written for firewire cameras.
- The cpu usage is lower when transferring firewire data because the firewire controllers understand video. This means you can get more performance out of firewire cameras.
- Firewire is cross platform, so you can use the same camera on Linux, Mac, Windows etc. I'm using firewire cameras under Linux with very good free software called coriander.
Just my $0.02
cheers, Bird
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Deep Sky Optics 13.1" f/5.5 newtonian,
PGR Dragonfly Express, PGR Dragonfly 2
RedHat Linux + Coriander
http://www.acquerra.com.au/astro/
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Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1148
Loc: Amarillo, TX
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Can someone tell me the difference between the DMK, DFK and DBK? I found two posts showing the the DFK with an 8 inch scope. I found them rather impressive.
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Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
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Sunspot
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 03/15/05
Posts: 937
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Just as a further note, Chris Go uses a DMK 21BF04 for all his imaging.
Paul
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Paul Maxson
Mewlon 250, Tak TOA-130, SolarMax 60, SKYnyx 2-0M
http://www.sunspot51.com
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gazerjim
Postmaster
Reged: 02/12/04
Posts: 7539
Loc: San Angelo, TX
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The DMK is strictly monochrome. Color is derived by series imaging with specialized color filters and calculated in final processing. This has many advantages; especially in terms of higher resolution and better processing. Of course, it's more complex and expensive.
The DBK cameras are 'bayer cameras'. This means they use a chip much like (maybe the same) that used on the toucams;
the pixels are overlaid with a mosaic of tiny Red, Green and Blue filters and some kind of magical math interpolation is used to derive the final color channels. The data is piped from camera to computer as an 8 bit file, and colorization is done either at time of capture and stored as 24 bit files, or by debayering the RAW file in processing later.
I assume the DFK series does the debayering in camera and sends the data in 24 bit format. This could make for some huge files and I'm not sure what advantage it would have over the bayer cam; but I could be wrong (I frequently am )
The tradeoff here is about a 1/3 loss (izzat right?) in resolution vs mono--the bayer system acts as a low pass filter and probably adds artifact in processing. Final results, however, are often limited by seeing conditions anyway. All in all, the mono RGB system is superior; but only if done correctly with each channel focused for its color (if necessary) and greater skill in processing.
Jim
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Jim Fisher
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Henry J. Tillman
Edited by gazerjim (09/09/07 10:25 PM)
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Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1148
Loc: Amarillo, TX
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Thanks Jim. I bit of research and I found out the big difference between the DBK and the DFK is that the DFK has an ir-cut filter over the ccd chip. I know with the DFK you have to buy some firewire cables, but does anyone know about needing a "firewire interface card" for your laptop? I read one might be needed.
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Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
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gazerjim
Postmaster
Reged: 02/12/04
Posts: 7539
Loc: San Angelo, TX
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You will certainly need firewire cables and probably either a firewire hub, or PCM card with ext. power jack to use the TIS cameras with your laptop. They draw more juice than the webcams.
Good luck.
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Jim Fisher
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Henry J. Tillman
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Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1148
Loc: Amarillo, TX
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Jim, I've been reading some of your old posts on this that I've been searching. Question for you. I just ordered a new Dell laptop. Will it have a firewire port on it? What type of cable? A 6 to 4? And when I image, I'm always running off electricity. Scope and laptop. Lastly, does this thing really way 3 pounds? Would by Nexstar 8i handle that OK? Sorry I'm so technically challenged. That should cover all my questions. Thanks to all.
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Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
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iceman
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 4221
Loc: Gosford, Australia
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If you want to go 1-shot colour, the DBK is the one you want.
I had to get a firewire powered hub for my DMK, which means I'm tied to 240v as well.
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Mike
. My Bio | My Jupiter 2007 Gallery | My Image Gallery
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rumples riot
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/01/04
Posts: 2234
Loc: South Australia
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Most new laptops now have firewire ports, very rare not to have them.
To some extent I agree with Anthony on the use of firewire. Although I found that software for point grey did not suit my level of use and knowledge. Meaning that I want a capture program that does not require a degree in computer sciences to operate. The Skynyx and DMK or DFK have nice software available.
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EARTH AND COSMOS
My Solar System Imaging BLOG
How to peltier cool a C14 SCT
SOUTH CELESTIAL POLE
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gazerjim
Postmaster
Reged: 02/12/04
Posts: 7539
Loc: San Angelo, TX
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Joel, I think the weight is more like 8 or 9 ounces; but it feels like a brick compared to the webcams. Weight might become a factor as accessories add up--camera, barlow/powermate, filter wheel etc.
If your model of laptop does not have a firewire port you should still be able to connect using a firewire card that plugs into the PCMCIA slot of the Dell. You can either use a powered card (comes with a DC 'wall wart') or an non powered card running through hub dedicated for firewire.
Jim
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Jim Fisher
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Henry J. Tillman
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Marc Delcroix
member
Reged: 08/26/07
Posts: 64
Loc: France
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Hi Joël,
I bought a monochrome SKYnyx 2-0 6 months ago, the reasons for my choice (instead of a DMK) where the following:
- 12 bits resolutions instead of 8bits. Experts say this really help in planetary imaging only when you have excellent seeing/conditions. But it really helps if you plan to do deepsky imaging (max exposure time is 3minutes)
- it is said by some to have a higher s/n ratio (but i've never seen a technical comparison)
- you can use a ROI (region of interest) to shorten the size of the capture, which helps the PC to keep up to a high frame rate and use 12 bits. But my opinion is that it helps only for Jupiter, to be able to acquire the maximum number of frames through the 3 color filters while keeping a total acquisition time short enough to avoid a blur due to the fast rotation of the planet. For the other planets, Saturn is not bright enough anyway (so i do LRGB with it, main thing beeing to limit only the acquisition in L), and Mars the rotation effect of Mars is smaller (disk smaller, rotation longer)
But to use the higher frame rate possible (60fps), you need a hard drive fast enough ...
Hope that helps
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Tournefeuille, France
personal web site
Member & webmaster of the
French Astronomical Society (SAF), planetary observations commission
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oliver_p
member
Reged: 12/27/04
Posts: 69
Loc: Germany, NRW
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Hi all,
imaging at 60fps sounds tempting but please keep in mind that this is only possible with exposure-/integration times of 1/60s or shorter. This limits the possible usage of 60fps to a few objects, most planets plus the moon are too dim to be imaged at 1/60s with our usual scope apertures with high magnification. BTW, the 21AF04.AS offers 60fps and ROI, too.
Best wishes & clear skies,
Oliver
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http://www.astro-imaging.de/astro
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Marc Delcroix
member
Reged: 08/26/07
Posts: 64
Loc: France
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Hello Oliver,
I totally agree with you, i might not have been clear enough: imaging at 60fps for me is only valuable for Jupiter. But it can be used also on Venus or the moon too.
To my knowledge, the ROI offered by DMK is a software ROI, meaning that the camera transmits the full frame and the the Imaging Source software crops the image, so it means need for the same bandwidth, and a bit of CPU time i presume.
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Tournefeuille, France
personal web site
Member & webmaster of the
French Astronomical Society (SAF), planetary observations commission
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oliver_p
member
Reged: 12/27/04
Posts: 69
Loc: Germany, NRW
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Hi Marc,
ok, the only gain of the software ROI would be saving diskspace then. Since the DMK & DBK 21AF04 can do 60fps at full framesize, higher framerates by ROI are not required for these models anyway. Things look different for the 31 and 41 models of course, true ROI with enhanced framerates would be a very nice feature here.
Best wishes & CS,
Oliver
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http://www.astro-imaging.de/astro
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swalker
Imaging Editor - Sky & Telescope
Reged: 01/22/07
Posts: 361
Loc: 42.9225°N, 71.2242°W
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Interesting thread.
In my review, I felt the Imaging Source cameras offer a better price vs. performance. The cameras come with excellent software, but you need to purchase your firewire cable and possibly a power supply (depending if you have 4-pin or 6-pin).
The Lumenera requires additional software purchase ($100-500!). Streampix only records in 8-bit, and is more expensive. LUCam recorder enables 12-bit capture, but I didn't see any real benefit other than imaging the Sun.
The biggest difference is the application of ROI- because the Lumenera compatable softwares perform this in camera, you can record at very high framerates when using a small portion of the chip. The imaging source cameras perform this in software, so it doesn't effect recording speeds.
I'm not saying the DMK's are better, I just don't find the benefits of the Lumeneras justify the 3x price difference.
Of course, this is only my oppinion.
By the way- the difference betwen the DBK and the DFK color cameras is one has built in IR blocking, while the other does not.
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12.5" f/5.1 Newt
10" f/4.5 Newt
4.25" f/4 Astrograph
80mm f/10 refractor
70mm Mak Cass
40mm PST
Millennium Mount EQ
TI ProDome #002
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oliver_p
member
Reged: 12/27/04
Posts: 69
Loc: Germany, NRW
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Hi,
well, the D'B'K models output raw Bayer data and the deBayeing is done on the host computer, the D'F'K models (german Farbe=color) transfer the image data as RGB to the host, hence the DFK models require 3x bus bandwidth compared to the DBK (and DMK) models.
My review of the 21AF04.AS and some basic thoughts on the ImagingSource camereas can be found on my website (direct link).
Best wishes & clear skies,
Oliver
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http://www.astro-imaging.de/astro
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Slow_aetk
member
Reged: 08/07/06
Posts: 22
Loc: Switzerland
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Hello Oliver,
Great review, very instructing on the behaviour of these cams. I spent a long time on Imagingsources website without find half of the information contained in your review.
Danke sehr,
Alain.
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TOA130 / C11 on CGE
XT10i
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Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1148
Loc: Amarillo, TX
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I'd like the thank everyone for answering my questions. Especially the ones I've been talking with in private. I just got off the phone with John at The Imaging Source. Very knowledgeable and nice guy. He said the DFK is suited best for terrestrial imaging and the DBK is certainly the way to go for planetary astrophotography. He said the DFK will certainly do OK with the planets, but would appear "pink" on the screen. I can use the IR-cut filter I have with the ToUcam. So he got me all set up with the cable, 6 pin to 4 pin, and the external power source. I changed laptops I'm buying. The one I'm getting now has the firewire plug and Windows Vista. As someone else pointed out in this thread, he said it will work fine with Vista. He also said they had been quite busy since Sean's S&T article. I realize most would still say the Lumenera is the way to go, and I do believe it too, but getting this camera allows me to upgrade from the ToUcam and get a new laptop for the price of the Lumenera alone, and still save hundreds. More than likely, I'll be buying again in 2009 during the Mars apparation and will seriously consider the Lumenera at that time. And, I did decide to go with the color instead of the monochrome, against the good advice of expert imagers in this forum for this reason... I like the results I've gotten from the ToUcam when I split the color channels. With good seeing, even fair - average seeing, it will pick up blue-ice clouds, orographic clouds and structure of the NPH, while the Red will cut through these clouds and show the albedo features on the surface. That is what I'm intersted in and need, and the easiest way to get that was with the color and not the monochrome. But I do know sometime in the future I'll give monochrome a try. Thanks again to all..........
Joel
--------------------
Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
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Lunatiki
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 1148
Loc: Amarillo, TX
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And example of splitting the color channels from a color, and not monochrome camera. If you compare the Red to the Blue and look at the NPH (south is up), you'll see that even though the blue isn't what you would get with a blue filter, it does well with showing the clouds in blue and the red shows the albedo features that you don't see in Blue and RGB.
web page
and another example showing how color can pic up orographic clouds. If you look at the left side, center of the disc, you'll see light patchy clouds in the Tharsis region. You can see them in RGB and Blue, but not Red.
web page
--------------------
Mars Watch
All images taken with:
Celestron NexStar 8i SCT
DBK 21AF04.AS
K3ccd/Registax4/PSP8
ALPO Member #4287
|
iceman
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/07/04
Posts: 4221
Loc: Gosford, Australia
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Splitting the colours channels and processing them independantly is certainly the way to go if you're going to stick with a 1-shot colour camera.
It's a technique I used when I was on the ToUcam as well, and describe at length in my article : Planetary Imaging and Image Processing. Of course it's over 14 months old now and techniques have changed a bit but for those still on the ToUcam or other 1-shot colour cameras, it's still useful.
Congrats on your purchase.
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Mike
. My Bio | My Jupiter 2007 Gallery | My Image Gallery
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mclewis1
Thread Killer
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 2225
Loc: Colorado
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Joel,
I recently purchased an inexpensive Dell Vostro 1500 with WinXP that also had a 4 pin firewire port. Interestingly Dell's marketing doc didn't mention the firewire port ... it was buried deep in the technical doc.
I like your analysis as to which camera you're choosing. One thing to watch is the length of the firewire cables. I found them limited in length with no options to easily extend a 6 pin cable. The Imaging Source modified cable (includes a DC power connector at the 4 pin end) is very interesting ... I just wish it was a little longer.
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Mark
C11, C6, APM/TMB115, and AT80ED
Tandem mount CGE and CG-5A, WO EZ-Touch and AT Voyager
25x100s, 8x56s, T-Mount Light, and Mark 1 eyeballs
Modded 350D, SPC900, Mallincam
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Gendo
Post Laureate
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