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MvZ
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AutoStakkert! 2
      #5059758 - 02/07/12 05:50 AM

As some of you might already know, a week ago I released AutoStakkert!2. I thought it might be a good idea to have this thread where people could post feedback and ask question about the software.

Let me start by saying that a new update will be released that will be capable of batch processing 'surface' recordings. Here is a short list of the fixes/changes of the upcoming release (if there are more changes, I'll let you know).

2.0.0.41 - Februari 7 2012 - 1:01AM
- Should be more stable now, especially for surface recordings containing bad frames.
- Automatically turn off bad frames with horizontal or vertical shifting artefacts (they should have a quality of 0 and be at the end of the quality list. Set TurnOffMisformedFrames=0 in the ini file if you want to turn this feature off).
- Speed increase for surface alignment (approximately 30% faster).
- Introduced two Surface options: 'Expand' will try to make the very biggest image stack possible, the edges will contain less frames (this was the default option). '100%' will crop the image such that each pixel will contain the same amount of data (the edges should be fine).
- Batch processing for surface recordings. When more than one surface recording was opened, when processing, for each frame all APs are replaced by a set of automatically placed APs (in a grid, just like when you press that button). This feature is very experimental and hasn't been tested!!!!! (so please test it )

---

At the moment there is no manual available, and I don't have time to write one. But perhaps this thread could give you some pointers on how to use the software. I'll start off by copying an email I sent to the beta testers:

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- File support for large (> 1 GB files, up to 4 GB should not be a problem). You can still use Castrator before running the images through AutoStakkert!, but the image quality will not be any different one way or the other.
- MAP: Multiple alignments (and along with that, multi-core support. So if you have a computer with 4 cores, the program should run about 4 times faster).
Potential drawback: it's not allowed to make more than one stack in MAP mode (you used to be able to make up to 8 different stacks using different frame percentages or frame numbers, but it was rather difficult to implement that in MAP mode. Perhaps it will be possible again in a future version)
- It can stack surface recordings as well as planetary recordings. There are two methods of global aligning, one based on the fact that a planet is always brighter than the background and the center should thus be easy to determine, the other will perform a course alignment on surface recordings (for images on the sun, or the moon, or potentially even some deepsky-recordings if you know what you are doing). I haven't really tested the program for moon recordings, but I have found it easily outperforms Registax 6 or AviStack2 on white light solar images.
- supports RGB recordings (avi recordings: many kinds of YUV formats, and RGB24. And TIF files). Color processing is generally much slower than monochrome processing (a lot of buffering takes place in monochrome processing)
- raw bayer image support (avi recordings: Y800, many kinds of YUV formats - for those who used the wrong codec to store the data - SER frames). Processing is much faster than RGB processing, and no interpolation techniques are used (R, G and B pixels are treated independently from each other, the natural drift in the images will fill in the gaps in the bayer pattern ).The correct bayer scheme is auto detected (but you can also override this if you prefer to). I won't go into too much detail here, send me a mail if you'd like to know more.
- Support for SER recordings (thanks to Heiko Wilkens for letting me use his file format!). This includes 8 or 16-bit monochrome recordings, as well as raw bayer recordings.
- Support for TIF, FIT and BMP files. Drag and drop one or more folders containing these image files onto the main form of AutoStakkert!2 to open them.
- Detail validation. A fancy word for creating two independent stacks with the same quality that can be used to separate features from noise. If features differ a lot between these two stacks (usually seen after stacking), than you can be quite sure it was simply noise you were looking at. This only works in Single AP mode (the main reason being that those stacks are slightly more reliable than MAP stacks)
- You can view all the frames of a recording.
- A new 'Analyze' function that prepares the recording for actually stacking (by calculating the quality of each frame using the chosen quality estimator). The frames will be ordered afterwards, so you can see how well the quality estimator does it job (when using the program in MAP mode, the quality of each AP will be calculated, each AP will have its own subset of images to stack). When we are dealing with a surface alignment, the analyze function will automatically set the maximum image size, and determine the area where the APs can be placed (pretty much inside the red rectangle, this is the area for which there is information available in ALL the frames)
- When the program is used in planetary mode, you can drag the planet around by holding the shift button and dragging the image. Click on the offset number, to reset the offset (it will center the planet again).
- Automatic AP placement. This is likely a preliminary version, because it is difficult to do this task automatically. It can place a bunch of APs of a particular size with the brighter parts of an image (there is a simple intensity threshold, which gives no feedback at the moment...). I prefer to manually place APs for images of planets. I will include a couple of examples on how I place the APs in my images.
- HQ Refine. Makes refining slightly more accurate (especially for really fine images). Processing will be a bit slower though, but I would leave this option ON for each serious processing efforts.
- Drizzling. 1.5x drizzling is nothing but the 3x drizzling reduced to 50%. Drizzling tries to improve the image quality of under sampled (!!!) data. It often does not produce more details, but it might be fun to play around with. Typical drizzling artifacts might occur (blocky pattern), reducing the 3x drizzling back to 50% removes pretty much all of these artifacts (but you could also work with the 3x drizzled recording if you want to. Drizzling makes the stacking phase go rather slow (about 9 times slower.. Aligning does not take more time).
- And finally: Unlike Registax or AviStack2, each alignment point does not have a predetermined area that it will represent in the final stack. After aligning and stacking all the alignment points, AutoStakkert!2 uses only the best APs to rebuild the final image stack. A single misplaced AP does not mess up the entire image, data from an adjacent AP that overlapped the same area will be used instead.
However, this does not mean that you can simply cover your image will an infinite amount of differently sized APs and an optimal image will always come out. This will not only result in a VERY slow program, it will also increase the chance that one of the poor APs by chance managed to make it to the final image after all. So place your APs wisely, and add a bit of overlap. APs produce the best results if they are placed in such a way that BOTH the X and Y direction can be determined correctly. Place a small AP right on the edge of a planet will ensure one direction is tracked properly (perpendicular to the edge), but the other direction will likely be blurred out.
One size of APs is usually the best way to go for a specific recording, unless for example there is a small moon visible inside the image, which might be better off with an extra smaller AP. Also, in the case of solar recordings, you might want to replace some of the small APs right in the center of sunspots by larger APs that cover a slightly wider area.

Proper stacking takes time. A single alignment point placed around the entire planet will always produce a decent looking image, but it will hardly ever be the best possible stack. If the seeing was absolutely excellent, it might come very close to a multiple alignment stack, but even then there is often a bit to gain by using multiple alignments.


Some tips:
You can add alignment points by clicking with your left mouse button inside a frame. In 'Single' mode, you can only draw the APs (left click once, move the mouse to another position, and click once more to place a rectangular AP), but in MAP mode you can also add square APs using a single mouse click. Use the right mouse button to remove the closest AP, and the mouse wheel to change the size of the APs you want to set.

Details in the image are aligned on a reference image which is simply a small stack of the best frames. You want this reference image to be representative for the entire recording, and contain little noise. A single frame is always a poor choice for a reference image, as it is usually slightly distorted and thus the final stack will also be slightly distorted. Also, a single frame is often too noisy to align on.
"Last stack is reference" tries to use the last stack as a reference frame (IF that last stack is available, and has the same size and same offset as the current recording, otherwise it will simply create a new reference frame).

Jupiter recordings at F/30:
- Open 1 or more recordings
- We are dealing with a planet, so make sure 'Planet COG' is selected
- Use the gradient quality method, Noise Robust 4 would probably be fine (use smaller value if the image contains very fine details, or a larger value if the recording is extremely noisy)
- Click analyze, en look at the ordered list of frames to see how well the currently quality estimator does its job.
- Determine how many frames you want to stack.
- use Multiple alignment points (MAP) and place around 30 APs with a size of around 80-120 (depending on the image scale and image quality). If there is a small moon or shadow visible, you can add an additional smaller AP around that.
- Determine how many frames you want to stack. If after the best 500 frames the image quality drops, it will generally NOT be a good idea to stack the best 1000 frames.
- Click Stack, to make stacks of all open recordings using the APs that you placed. A cancel button also becomes clickable just in case you made an error.

Mars (similar to Jupiter, with a couple of differences):
- Edge detector often works well, I would turn it off for the shadow side of mars, because it is more difficult to determine the quality there.
- If the images are really good, you might also try the gradient quality estimator. You'll have to experiment. If you use edge, every AP will use the same subset of frames to stack, in gradient mode all APs use their own subset of frames.
- Single or MAP, if Mars is big enough (> 8"), an MAP alignment should give you more detail. Add enough overlap between the APs, and use an AP size of about 8" x 8" to get you started. A smaller AP placed around the polar cap, and/or two placed near the edges of the polar cap, might be a good idea too.

Venus (similar to Mars)
- The recordings often contain VERY little noise and are made with short exposure times. The gradient quality estimator can incorrectly see the seeing bubbles as extra details, so you might be better of using the edge quality detector.
- If Venus has a crescent shape, I would definitely use MAP. Place one AP on each pointy end, and add a couple more APs around the center (large enough so you see a bit of black space on either side of Venus, as it is pretty impossible to stack on features on Venus.


The Sun
- Always use gradient quality. A small value of 2 works best for my white light recordings that contain no noise and were shot at F/15. If you use a larger image scale, I would use a value of 3 or 4.
- MAP
- The size of the APs greatly depends on the image scale and the amount of noise visible. I can use the smallest APs on my low noise data recorded at F/15 (with a 5.6x5.6um camera), but I would start off with larger APs (do a run with 100, and decrease the AP size in the next runs until you don't see an increase in the image quality).
- Use the button 'Place APs in Grid' to add APs.
- Have a look at the Analyzed frame before placing the alignment points!!! In my recordings of the sun in white light, the quality often drops very fast. Don't stack a lot of frames if only a few of them are good enough, but if you are lucky to have steady seeing, stack more frames.

Moon
- Similar to the sun


----

So, if you have any questions on how to process your recordings, just ask them here. If you run into serious problems, please send me an email as well.


Edited by MvZ (02/07/12 06:44 AM)


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MvZ
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5059762 - 02/07/12 05:57 AM

Some ideas to place alignment points.


Notice the extra small AP placed around Ganymede at the top. Small round features such as a moon or shadow of a moon often track really well, so place an AP around it (this can also work for the GRS or other very stable features)




Saturn can be a bit more difficult to process. DON'T use automatic AP placement, but place the APs manually instead. An AP is only strong if it can track features in two perpendicular directions (AS!2 favours x-y directions, but it can also be diagonal or anything in between).

Most important lesson: experiment with different APs!


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MvZ
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5059764 - 02/07/12 05:59 AM

>Any chance you will add other formats besides avi and ser to the software. I use bmp because it gives me so much more control over the raw images.

I hate BMP files, but you should be able to drag and drop a directory containing them onto the main form of AS!2 (drag and drop also works for other SER/AVI files!)



Edited by MvZ (02/07/12 06:04 AM)


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PiotrM
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5059769 - 02/07/12 06:04 AM

Works nicely for some H-alpha solar images (R6 sucks with correct alignment)

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Nebulium
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: PiotrM]
      #5059775 - 02/07/12 06:13 AM

Many thanks , Emil

We just shot here in France some fine Mars movies for trying AS2.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Nebulium]
      #5059791 - 02/07/12 06:49 AM

Well what can I say. I've been a loyal & devoted die-hard Registax fan for years but after trying this software, I am sold! Got a better stack the very first go than what I know I can squeeze out of Registax!

Great stuff Emil!


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Asimov]
      #5059810 - 02/07/12 07:15 AM

Excellent Emil! I notice though your post here talls us it is version 2.0.0.41, yet your web page allows download of 2.0.0.37...

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MvZ
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: swalker]
      #5059844 - 02/07/12 07:50 AM

Thanks!

Sean, I will upload the new version later (tomorrow probably, perhaps within 12h if I get the chance to test it properly). The notes were just to let you know I have been working on those issues, but they need to be tested before I put it online.


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swalker
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5059862 - 02/07/12 08:08 AM

Ah, thanks. It's working great on my Win7 32-bit machine. The only videos I've needed to manually place alignment points on are my UV venus images, because the background is so bright and noisy.

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MvZ
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: swalker]
      #5059884 - 02/07/12 08:26 AM

I would think about placing more APs manually if I were you. It gives you a bit more control and allows you to place them a bit smarter (e.g. avoiding the very edges of larger planets, and adding a few extra around stable features, or even some smaller APs around very stable features such as the (shadows of) the Moons of Jupiter)

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5059955 - 02/07/12 09:31 AM

Thanks, I'll try it out and see.

Quote:

>Any chance you will add other formats besides avi and ser to the software. I use bmp because it gives me so much more control over the raw images.

I hate BMP files, but you should be able to drag and drop a directory containing them onto the main form of AS!2 (drag and drop also works for other SER/AVI files!)






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Sunspot
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Sunspot]
      #5059979 - 02/07/12 09:45 AM Attachment (115 downloads)

Dragging and dropping a folder with bmps didn't work (apparently). The screen capture is below of the error. Windows XP Pro is OP. System locked up and had to ctrl-alt-del to close the app.

Paul


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5060000 - 02/07/12 09:58 AM

Hi Emil,

I downloaded it. When I went to unzip it, I got a message to the effect that it coldn't read the timestamp?

hat's ok because then looking at my desktop where I installed it, it works. I thought I would try my 5 Gig file of Mars I did the other day which will not work with my Registax6. My captures are recorded with a DFK21AU camera onto a Windows XP 32 bit computer. The .avi file is then transferred to my Windows 7 64 bit machine. The problems saying that Registax cannot load the file. In Autostakkert!2 I get the message "Invalid codec DVSD (1685288548)." So it appears I will always have to use Virtual Dub to convert the file first and then process them.

Also, I understand that you're still in the evolutionary process with this, correct? For instance, I still need to use something like Registax to still apply the wavelets?


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MvZ
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Awesomelenny]
      #5060036 - 02/07/12 10:21 AM

No idea about the message of the timestamp, seems to be something in the unzip software, so I'm not touching that one.

What software do you use to make your recordings Len? You should select an uncompressed format to save your recordings (you could use raw bayered recordings with the Y800 codec, or just create a bsic RGB24 avi video). DVSD does not sound like a good codec to use for astronomy imaging.

>Also, I understand that you're still in the evolutionary process with this, correct?
Not really, AutoStakkert!2 is not and will not be about image processing, it's only about aligning and stacking images. So it will NEVER incorporate image sharpening routines, mask functionality, noise reduction, deconvolution, color enhancement, etc etc. Registax can do a bit of that (perhaps enough), Photoshop/GIMP can do a lot of that (likely enough), and there are plenty of other software packages that can also do specialized bits of that.


Paul, I'll look into that. Could you provide some details about the images in the folder (how many, size, type of BMP, can you upload a BMP for me??). I just opened a folder containing 3000 BMP files without a problem on my Windows 7 computer.

Edited by MvZ (02/07/12 11:14 AM)


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5060072 - 02/07/12 10:48 AM

Hi Emil,
I love AutoStakkert!2 !!! As soon as I have more time I'd be bothering you with a couple of questions(I have tested it already and have some great results). By now, I can only say THANK YOU SO MUCH for such a piece of software, and for taking care of our questions and experiences on the program with this useful thread!!!
Best regards,
David


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5060342 - 02/07/12 01:17 PM

Quote:

Let me start by saying that a new update will be released that will be capable of batch processing 'surface' recordings.




I was just sitting down to email you about this! I'm really looking forward to being able to just press "stack" and come back in the morning. It will make those 50 AVI nights (like last Friday ) a lot easier to get through.

As I mentioned in Glenn's Mars thread, I've found that AS2! gives slightly sharper results on my lunar AVIs than AviStack2. (And R6 won't run some of my AVIs at all until I convert them via VirtualDub - I have no idea why not.) This is the case even though I don't pick alignpoints - I just have AS2! set out a grid. Works fine so far. Thanks again for the great program, Emil.

Kevin


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5060613 - 02/07/12 03:44 PM

Hi Emil,

With regard to the capabilities...just aligning and stacking, yours is the best! I am re-processing all my Jupiter images that I took last month. So I will just use my Registax 6 for the wavelets and the final processing with my Adobe Photoshop CS5.

Around here where I live, we almost never have a stable atmosphere...thanks to the jet stream.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Asimov]
      #5060735 - 02/07/12 05:17 PM

Quote:

Well what can I say. I've been a loyal & devoted die-hard Registax fan for years but after trying this software, I am sold! Got a better stack the very first go than what I know I can squeeze out of Registax!

Great stuff Emil!




Ok - if you reckon it's worth trying John I'll give it a whirl.....obviously with Emil's comments about bmp's (and/or more importantly Paul's that it doesn't accept them) there's absolutely no need to bother about pre-processes like Vdub & ninox either - he'd most probably tell us to use Castrator anyway.....hmmm, maybe that's his game, monopolise nearly all processing and then start charging everyone once they're almost totally dependant upon it..!

I like what I've read about edge detection etc, perhaps this might better handle the bizarre effects that a lot of the captures I collected recently of Mars exhibited, and which others in this neck of the woods have also noticed: this required some laborious rehashing in Registax to handle effectively...


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5060802 - 02/07/12 05:50 PM

Turns out that AutoStakkert will handle bmp's after all....well almost anyway. Like Registax, you have to drag and drop them onto the software. Emil and I have found a couple of glitches, but once Emil gets that worked out it should be good to go. So far I have only one avi file to play with so I'm anxious to get testing in earnest with my bmp captures.

Paul

Quote:

Quote:

Well what can I say. I've been a loyal & devoted die-hard Registax fan for years but after trying this software, I am sold! Got a better stack the very first go than what I know I can squeeze out of Registax!

Great stuff Emil!




Ok - if you reckon it's worth trying John I'll give it a whirl.....obviously with Emil's comments about bmp's (and/or more importantly Paul's that it doesn't accept them) there's absolutely no need to bother about pre-processes like Vdub & ninox either - he'd most probably tell us to use Castrator anyway.....hmmm, maybe that's his game, monopolise nearly all processing and then start charging everyone once they're almost totally dependant upon it..!

I like what I've read about edge detection etc, perhaps this might better handle the bizarre effects that a lot of the captures I collected recently of Mars exhibited, and which others in this neck of the woods have also noticed: this required some laborious rehashing in Registax to handle effectively...




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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Sunspot]
      #5061085 - 02/07/12 08:47 PM

.....so, it's merely load avi's, or drag & drop bmp's into Autostakkert - is Ninox not worth applying first at all - I could limit Ninox to merely crop and centre avi's after bitmapping..? (or maybe just use Emil's Castrator, which I understand applies the cropping & centring straight to avi's)

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5061153 - 02/07/12 09:35 PM

Personally I think a program like Ninox is always beneficial with any stacking program. One reason why I'm so adamant about using bmp's for my capture.

Paul


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Sunspot]
      #5061211 - 02/07/12 10:07 PM

I've always like the quality estimation in Ninox. In fact Anthony was one of the main drivers in getting better quality estimators into Registax. Autostakkert has always been good in quality estimation and now that Emil has added an edge estimator as well its hard not to keep Autostakkert at the ready.

For reasons somewhat mysterious, sometimes one program will excel with a certain dataset whereas another one will the next day. Indeed some datasets will provide a better stack with single point alignment, just another mystery - but one can think of reasons that might be.

Glenn


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Kokatha man
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: DesertRat]
      #5061277 - 02/07/12 10:47 PM

Quote:

I've always like the quality estimation in Ninox. In fact Anthony was one of the main drivers in getting better quality estimators into Registax. Autostakkert has always been good in quality estimation and now that Emil has added an edge estimator as well its hard not to keep Autostakkert at the ready.

For reasons somewhat mysterious, sometimes one program will excel with a certain dataset whereas another one will the next day. Indeed some datasets will provide a better stack with single point alignment, just another mystery - but one can think of reasons that might be.

Glenn




Obviously without trialling it yet I can't give any personal "druthers" but it's certainly worth "giving a whirl" as I will today sometime: those comments of yours here Glenn are why I'm allways a bit reserved about any claims of immense superiority of one program over another most of the time (especially when dealing with such established and developed ones like Reggie or Ninox) - a lot of subjective hype can blur our initial appraisals, and as you say, different captures can respond differently and skew one's comparisons momentarily.

I think some of the latter comments myself and Brad etc have made about WinJUPOS after I posted the tute are included here - it's definitely not for inferior recordings, and certain data capture parameters and types of W/J procedures respond much better than others as well...

But I am eager to trial Autostakkert, and speed sure is something I could appreciate in processing if the outcomes are similar.....


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5061580 - 02/08/12 05:47 AM

Hi guys. I'm finding that AS2 is better than Registax at aligning data in seeing of 6/10 & below. I've done a few stacks now & done the comparisons & that's what I'm finding anyhow. I'm not finding much of a difference between the two in above 6/10.

As far as speed goes, I'm still finding Registax slightly quicker, but then I'm doing BIG Debayered OSC AVI's - Hell of a difference from mono RGB data.


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MvZ
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Asimov]
      #5061692 - 02/08/12 08:07 AM

I don't think Ninox is worth applying tbh, but most of the time it shouldn't hurt either.

Unless you are going to use MAP alignment in AS!2, use a gradient quality estimator, and work on a pretty decent and consistent recording (and especially for larger targets > 20")

Ninox registers the image quality globally, so it will give a quality number to each entire frame. Which is usually fine for really small targets. The edge quality estimator in AS!2 also works globall, which mean that each AP is going to use the exact same offset of frames.

When working in gradient mode in AS!2 (and also in Registax 6 and AviStack 2), for each AP a separate quality estimator will be used. This means that AP-1 at the top left of the screen will likely have a whole different set of frames to stack than AP-100 at the bottom right of the screen.

Especially for bigger targets it could be bad if you already pre-selected the best 50% of the frames, as they might be the best overall frames, but not necessarily the best for the top left or bottom right location! The bigger the target, the less strict you should pre-select.

Glenn, the edge quality estimator has been there since version 1 actually. Not much has changed in the quality estimation algorithms.

I have not found a recording where SAP gave better results than MAP, for me it has always been at least equally good. Under really steady conditions, MAP might give hardly any improvement though, but that is in the nature of really steady seeing. If MAP produces worse results, it's a good indication the AP points should probably be bigger, and or placed at different locations: for example, a diagonal line - like a zoomed in ring of Saturn - is NOT a steady point to place an AP. It can track well in both X and Y, but there will be a lot of blurring in the direction of the diagonal line. To make sure that blurring in the diagonal direction won't happen, you should place the AP such that there are features that 'block' that diagonal movement: make sure the other side of the ring is within the FOV, or relocate the AP to include a perpendicular feature like the edge of the planet, or the black space at the tips of the rings. ).


Darryl, you are absolutely right. Just try it out, and try to understand how the program works. If it works well for you, excellent, if it doesn't, try again (yes, you ould get get stuck in an infinite loop this way haha). But I think it will work fine.

John, AS!2 can also handle undebayered recordings, and it will actually be MUCH faster and should also be sharper (as it doesn't use any per frame linear interpolation mechanisms which tries to guess missing pixels, it basically uses a type of drizzling which fills in the missing pixels on the fly). At the moment buffering the entire RGB frames is not supported, and it won't be supported anytime soon, so it will have to read from your hard disk more, making it slower.


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Kokatha man
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5061713 - 02/08/12 08:34 AM

Interesting comments Emil: strangely, I'm finding Ninox isn't handling my Mars capture so far at all well and I've put that down to the peculiar type of seeing myself and another AA'er here in South Australia have noticed a lot so far this apparition.....MAP just isn't producing acceptable results in R6 using Gradient2 and I've had to resort to C of G alignments - I'm still Ninoxing but loading all the bmp's into R6 because regardless of MAP or C of G Registax is determining quite different quality selections, and am really only using Ninox to speed the R6 process up by virtue of the cropping & centring functions.

Contrary to one of your comments above, I haven't had any problems using Ninox with the larger targets in recent time, such as Saturn at present and Jupiter a month or so ago.....it's little Mars that is troubling Ninox...and the seeing between Mars and Saturn shoots has been pretty much the same so that doesn't seem to be a differentiating factor for those 2 at least...

But I'm about to give AS a go in a few minutes, and the points you've already made plus those in your last post about SAP & MAP, and particularly AP's in general are good to know beforehand - will report back when I think I have something to comment further about..!


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5061769 - 02/08/12 09:20 AM

In my comments I didn't actually take into account how well the quality estimator of Ninox works.

I have found that for larger targets a gradient quality estimator works well (and Ninox uses a gradient quality estimator, althought it's not quite the same as is used in AS!2). For smaller and brighter targets a gradient quality estimator might not work that well, image distortions can sometimes be seen as 'extra detail', I have seen this happen in particular on Venus and Mars recordings. But that is where the Edge quality estimator could be used, for bright targets edge sharpness is much more robust to those seeing distortions as it only looks at the sharpest transitions from each direction, and you can't get much sharper transitions than going form the dark background to a well-defined planet.


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Kokatha man
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5062761 - 02/08/12 06:41 PM

Hmmmmm...Well, image distorting is a major element of the weird seeing effects we've been experiencing here, and AS edge alignment might prove beneficial thereon (I haven't done those trials yet - sleep (or lack of it!) got the better of me last night...)

But don't forget that Ninox does offer several other command line switches/function variations such as altering the number of downsampled images it takes it's particular form of Gradient2 quality estimation from and "-dbf=planet" which is for discarding badly-formed frames (both of which have no impact with the particular problem I've encountered of late alas! )

Also there's the morphing switches/commands.....hmmm, maybe they are actually "anti-morphing" controls and these are my next stage of inclusion in the Ninox-regulated processing comparisons which should be stacked up against AutoStakkert!'s performance in various modes - time to get to work but I have to confess that pre-processing as well as processing with my current regimens makes for a super-workload (why I haven't tried the morph switches in Ninox to date - Registaxing for the morphing sample, then Ninoxing, then final Registaxing!) so I hope I find some genuine satisfaction/advantages in your program Emil: a pity wavelet sharpening isn't part of your software, but if it really does run very fast then that's a real bonus.....as you commented earlier, one can go on a merry-go-round with all this trialling and analysing - but then again you programmers most probably think that's a wondrous pastime..!


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Sunspot
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5063661 - 02/09/12 11:33 AM

Emil,

I'm getting a much better handle on the personality of the program. One part that continues to frustrate me is the lack of file management. I would love to give the final stacked image my own naming convention and place them where they work best for me. Not a complaint, but a suggestion. Otherwise...onward and upward.

Paul


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Asimov
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Sunspot]
      #5063676 - 02/09/12 11:41 AM

As Paul said for me as well however I'm already used to that & so I plan ahead a bit & place the original capture in it's own folder rather than have 20 odd captures in one folder. Works for me anyway.

Great program!!


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Asimov]
      #5063763 - 02/09/12 12:31 PM

Just an aside, consider donating a little something to Emil if you like AutoStakkert! 2; It is a labor of love by Emil, but a little reward for a job well done goes a long way in encouraging additional features and tweaks.

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: swalker]
      #5063801 - 02/09/12 01:04 PM

I'll second Seans motion. The amount of work involved in such an undertaking should be rewarded by the imaging community.

Glenn


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Sunspot
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: DesertRat]
      #5063836 - 02/09/12 01:26 PM

Ditto! Then I won't feel so bad about making suggestions...

Of course, that works both ways...I'd figure on seeing an article about the software in S&T after the final release comes out... (hint).

Paul


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MvZ
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Sunspot]
      #5064465 - 02/09/12 08:40 PM

Thanks for the kind words. Of course donations are appreciated, but remember that you don't HAVE to donate. You can use the software or make suggestions either way

Whether or not I do something with those suggestions depends on 1) my mood, 2) if I'm convinced it makes sense, 3) how time consuming it will be to implement.

-- 2.0.0.46 is online. List of changes: ---

- Changed name of Coarse Alignment to Image Stabilization, which makes a bit more sense.
- Added option to manually set coarse alignment window location in surface mode. You should set it around a feature that stays in the FOV at all times. The default location works 95% of the time, but sometimes AS!2 surface alignment loses track because there is nothing interesting to see in the center of the screen.
- AS!2 is now aware of OS limitations on amount of memory available per process. There should be no more lockups caused by out of memory on 32-bit OS.
- Fixed caption of frame number at bottom left, it didnt update properly in batch processing.
- Fixed caption of frame view in batch processing.
- Fixed unable to press Cancel button in batch processing.
- Added some extra lines at the back of the quality graph at 0, 25, 75 and 100% to increase readability of this graph.
- Tiffs are now saved uncompressed (instead of LZW). Should increase compatibility with processing software.
- Added support for 8-bit single channel bmp files.
- Fixed surface alignment bug causing a more or less random lock up during buffering or image alignment.
- Should be more stable now, especially for surface recordings containing poor frames.
- Automatically turn off bad frames with horizontal or vertical shifting artifacts.
- Speed increase for surface alignment (approximately 30-50% faster).
- Introduced two Surface options: Expand will try to make the very biggest image stack possible, the edges will contain less frames (this was the default option). 100% will crop the image such that each pixel will contain the same amount of data (the edges should be fine).
- Batch processing for surface recordings. When more than one surface recording was opened, when processing, for each frame all APs are replaced by a set of automatically placed APs (in a grid, just like when you press the grid button).


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Sunspot
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5064507 - 02/09/12 09:09 PM

You HAVE been busy! Now it's time to try the newest beta and have some fun!

Paul


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Sunspot
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5064557 - 02/09/12 09:52 PM Attachment (78 downloads)

Well, your results may vary, but I'm quickly becoming a believer! I've attached my latest comparison the first image using the older beta. This is the same image I used in my "unbiased comparison" thread. The image on the right is using Emil's latest release, as well as the experience I've gained by using the program and from Emil himself. I'm not saying the processing is identical, the latest adds more experience. But, if this is any indication for the evolution of Autostakkert...I'm really impressed! Still hoping for more flexible file management, but can't kick about the results.

Two questions:

I had dynamic background checked, noise robust 3 and hand selected 13 APs with the 50 box. I'm not sure (and this may be mentioned elsewhere) what dynamic background does and if it is necessary or not.

I had normalized stack 75% checked and not sure what that (or sharpened images box) does. What's your take on that.

Anyway, pretty exciting advance!

Paul


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Hillbrad
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Sunspot]
      #5064580 - 02/09/12 10:01 PM

Wow Paul that's a great improvement. Looks similar to my gains from Autosakkert 1 to 2. I will be trying out the new beta version this week as well. Thanks Emil for such a great tool.

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Freddy WILLEMS
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Hillbrad]
      #5064652 - 02/09/12 10:55 PM

Great stuff Emil, I'm trying it now and sometime I have some kind of 'seems artifacts' is this because of bad seeing or stacking ?
I have this on Jupiter, 15 alignment point set inside the planet, not the edges..
What are the best settings to avoid stacking lines on Jupiter? I only put the alignment boxes on the NEB and SEB no edges.

Somebody else have this with Jupiter ?


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MvZ
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Freddy WILLEMS]
      #5065749 - 02/10/12 03:53 PM

I didn't change anything in the alignment routines, so I'm guessing most of the increase in image quality that Paul is seeing (ha, seeing), comes from a difference in the placement and size of the alignment points (so make sure to play around with that a bit, after a while you'll get the hang of it).

For planets you should pretty much always keep the dynamic background setting checked. It is used to automaticaly determine the brightness of the black space, which is a critical step for keeping the planet steady in AS!2 (so the image stabilization is not thrown off by a noisy background with perhaps even a changing brightness when you are processing daytime recordings).

The normalize stack option uses an automaticaly calculated guess of the background, and stretches the image stack in such a way that the maximum brightness is always at 75%. I found this to be very helpful when you are imaging under varying transparancy or during dusk or dawn to keep all the R, G and B channels with a similar brightness both at the dark and bright extremes. I also often play around with different capturing settings, and when I use the normalize stack option each stack comes out with a similar brightness. This makes it much easier to make animations.

Freddy, can you show me an example? AS!2 is virtually seem free if you cover the entire planet with APs (place your APs on Jupiter like in the second post of this thread)


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Sunspot
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5066054 - 02/10/12 07:21 PM

Emil, \

I agree that the improvement mostly comes from a better placement of APs. Part of learning the program. Sure is fun to work with good data.

Paul


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Hillbrad
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Sunspot]
      #5066068 - 02/10/12 07:26 PM

I second that..it took me a little practice but once you get the hang of the APs I haven't got any seems on Jupiter or Mars. Haven't tried Saturn yet but I'm sure it's the same.

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Kokatha man
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Hillbrad]
      #5066158 - 02/10/12 08:13 PM

Well, in the spirit of sharing fellas, let's see a few screenshots from ya's to demo your latest (say) Mars MAPS positions..!

I've been handicapped by pc glitches (which now seem sorted) and actually had to retrieve avi's from my laptop using Pandora Recovery for the trials.....

But I have to say that once I got a very basic hang of the operations (and for this I had to resort to looking at your videos for the much earlier version of AS! Emil) I am pretty darn impressed..!

Lawd knows what I first did (took about 3/4 hour for AS! to process..! ) but after that I was quite astounded.....loading avi's into it and it whirring through in a minute or two (although I do use an 8-thread machine )

I'm quite impressed with what seems like a substantial jump in image quality output - and I'm still right at the elementary stage of getting to know the software.....I just placed 4 overlapping MAP boxes (size=80) centred around the limb peripheries and a smaller (40) one encompasssing the NPC but I'll retry the "Edge" method also and play with the boxes a bit more and see what transpires.....

A couple of things to comment upon - being a lazy son-of-a-gun who uses his handpiece to correct whilst capturing (I'm a travellin' imager most of the time ) I'm finding that there is that slight difficulty with RGB alignment that I'd also get if I didn't Ninox (crop & centre) in my prior processing regimens.....would Castrator used before AS! assist therein as Ninox used to....?

Also doubly-impressed 'cos even though I only used 5 alignment boxes and the Mars avi I used isn't fantastic.....with R6 I couldn't use MAPs without ending up with seams - and had to resort to CofG alignment with selfsame Ninox'd avi's..!

I took to assigning a folder/directory to each avi prior to AS! so that it deposited the stacks (with prefixes) where I knew/wanted them, so that wasn't any real problem.

Pretty sure I'm going to be a convert after only very brief elementary play-around.....lawdy, all that preparatory work with Vdub and Ninox and then Reggie chugging away.....I'd almost be prepared to kiss you Emil - if your chickens wouldn't get jealous..!


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Freddy WILLEMS
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5066639 - 02/11/12 03:27 AM Attachment (78 downloads)

Hoi Emil,
Tied again with the same alignment settings as in your example and after sharpening in Registax 6 I had this result.
Nobody else has this ?


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MvZ
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Freddy WILLEMS]
      #5066764 - 02/11/12 08:23 AM

> I'm finding that there is that slight difficulty with RGB alignment that I'd also get if I didn't Ninox (crop & centre) in my prior processing regimens.....would Castrator used before AS! assist therein as Ninox used to...

Not really, AS!2 uses the same centering method as Castrator does, and applying it once or ten times shouldn't make a difference. A COG measurement of the blue channel is often shifted towards the polar cap a bit (because compared to the rest of the planet, the polar cap is much more bright in blue than in red light). I think this, and other such differences in brightness regions, might cause a slight mis-alignment between the channels.

Freddy, those are seems alright. If you open that recording in AS!2, which Image Stabilization settings do you use (dynamic background?), and if you browse through the recording (using the slider at the top of the image window), does the planet stay perfectly centered throughout all frames?

How big are the APs that you use, and how are they placed?

Could you provide a screenshot of both of the AS!2 windows?


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Freddy WILLEMS
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5067299 - 02/11/12 02:09 PM

I will emil,
Just for now, those where ninoxed frames, BMP's.
I did not have a good Avi' so I did not load the Avi, but the ninoxed frames like around 7000 into AS2.
I will get that screenshot.


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Freddy WILLEMS
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Freddy WILLEMS]
      #5067464 - 02/11/12 04:21 PM Attachment (83 downloads)

Hi Emil.
This is a recent processed Jupiter Avi,
No ninox, just straight the Avi into AS.


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Freddy WILLEMS
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Freddy WILLEMS]
      #5067465 - 02/11/12 04:22 PM Attachment (64 downloads)

Wavelets into Registax 6
Let me know what I'm doing wrong..
I love the program it looks better then R6.. but only have those damn seems,
Also Processing my Mars images from this morning and have the same seems. Use different computers..


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PiotrM
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Freddy WILLEMS]
      #5067497 - 02/11/12 04:50 PM

Try maybe single point. Multipoint sometimes goes crazy (like in R6).

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Freddy WILLEMS
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: PiotrM]
      #5067516 - 02/11/12 05:04 PM

Thanks Rik, will try, have the whole weekend..
Just want to add that I do not have any problems with my moon images processed in Surface mode.


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MvZ
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Freddy WILLEMS]
      #5067600 - 02/11/12 06:01 PM

No, there is no need to switch to single AP just yet, we are not running away from the problem (although you are right that fever things can go wrong a single AP placed around the entire planet, you can't get a more stable AP than this, and the image quality is always at least decent)

You should do all these things Freddy, and the image should improve.
- Use the width and height sliders to crop the data to make sure you don't run into memory problems. AS!2 loves to buffer, but I see your pc does not have a lot of RAM available (450mb free is not a lot these days) so buffering to increase processing speed is out of the question. Set a width of around 320 and a height of 300.
- an AP size of 50 is WAY too low for this data, AS!2 simply won't be able to align the data in those tiny windows. Try again with an AP size of 120, and place overlapping APs ALL OVER THE PLANET (there shouldn't be any gaps there like you have in the center of the planet. Where there is overlap, there is backup for a potential troublesome AP - AS!2 will sort that out automaticaly)
- increase the gradient estimator to 4
- Don't use drizzle. Only experiment with drizzle when you know the data is undersampled and of high quality, otherwise just stay away from this setting for now.

Please report back with the results.

Edit: just to repeat one question to make sure the image stabilization works: "if you browse through the recording (using the slider at the top of the image window, just drag it along with the mouse), does the planet stay perfectly centered throughout all frames?"

Edited by MvZ (02/11/12 06:16 PM)


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Yuri_18
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5067724 - 02/11/12 07:43 PM

Hi all,

I have done some tests with our materials and I can tell that as it seems to me AS2 works very well. Emil, thanks for the fine software.


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Freddy WILLEMS
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Yuri_18]
      #5067934 - 02/11/12 10:09 PM

Hi Emil,
Just tried two Avi's Red and Green, and they are ok with NO drizzle !
Jupiter stays centered all the way, perfect..
And what ever alignment box I use works great, but them with no Drizzle.. So that problem is solved.
Now what I miss here Emil is the re-sample like 1.5 or 2 X like in Registax, that's why I used 1.5 drizzle to make the end result slightly bigger in scale then the original capture.
Is there a way the implement that in the software.
It's really fast Emil and everybody likes it and will use it eventually !! And much sharper..


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MvZ
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Freddy WILLEMS]
      #5068359 - 02/12/12 07:14 AM

Are you sure it is caused by drizzle problems Freddy?? I know for a fact that an AP size of 50 on that kind of data is too low to work optimally, so the results should definately improved when you use bigger and better placed APs (like I described in my previous post).

You can easily test this by placing those 120 size APs on Jupiter, and then stack without the drizzling option, immediately followed by a stack where you turned the drizzling option ON. If you could show both stacks, that would be grrrreat.

Btw, I'm not adding a resampling method. That would be something for AS!3.

Edited by MvZ (02/12/12 07:19 AM)


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Mert
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5068389 - 02/12/12 07:56 AM

Hoi Emil,

First to start off with, I'm much impressed with the
results AS!2 offers without knowing anything.
Thank you very much for such a wonderfull tool you've
developed!!
After some reading and trying, I see that the stacking
is very nice.
One question I have is about the resulting image
I see there are 2 images being saved, one is the stack
without processing??? and the second with some sort of
wavelet scheme applied??

I compared 2 images I did, the first was processed with a
lot of steps, the second with AS!2 Specklm and CS2.
The funny thing I observe is that the AS!2 processed
version seems to have a very pixelized apearance.

Which is the "unprocessed" version saved? (is it
unprocessed only stacked??)


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PiotrM
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Mert]
      #5068486 - 02/12/12 09:26 AM

Here is my Mars comparison. The apps had a tricky thing to do as C11 had a temperature lag and from time to time the image to blurred slightly from tube currents. It seems that Both AS versions made good stacks:

http://i44.tinypic.com/2el5jsx.jpg

Bigger % stack gives less sharp image (AS deconv files)... so at 50% it stacks 50% of frames starting from the best ones?


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sfugardi
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: PiotrM]
      #5068528 - 02/12/12 09:54 AM

Emil, thank you very much for the enormous amount of work you put into the latest AS! program. I have just started using it within the last 24hrs. The user panel is very nice. One interesting thing I noticed about the selection of AP sizes. If you pick a size that is too small, the program does not work, so I've tweak the size as low as possible until its starts. For my latest Mars I have it set to 65. Your program will take image processing to the next level for sure. Thanks again!

Regards,
Steve


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MvZ
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: sfugardi]
      #5068675 - 02/12/12 11:30 AM

Hi Mert,

The (slightly) sharpened one has the "conv_" in the name, so the other one is the raw stack. The sharpened version is only for previewing (I often use it to scan through the results to find a good set of RGB data ), you shouldn't use it for processing. If you don't need the sharpened version, just turn off the 'sharpened images" option, and it will only save a raw stack.

Loverly images Piotr, looks like excellent seeing! The image sharpening routine built into AS!2 is very simple and does not take into account how many frames were stacked. More frames stacked pretty much always means that you also have to sharpen the image more to get a similar sharpness. This does not mean you shouldn't stack more frames though, it only means that you should adapt your processing to the amount of frames that you stacked. So again, the image sharpening in AS!2 it is only meant to provide a quick sharpened preview of the stack (I often just use the windows photo viewer to browse through all the "conv_" results to get an idea of what the data is like).

Steve. It's best to start off with APs that are a bit too large (like the size of Mars), and work your way down from there. Carefuly compare the results to see what works best for your images, after a while you'll get an idea of which settings you should use. The raw AP size number on it's own means nothing, it greatly depends on the image scale you image it, the noise level of the images, the seeing, etc. Simply put: keep experimenting with your data. You'll soon find that for Mars images recorded at F/34 an AP size of xx works well most of the time, but in case of the blue channel it might be best to use sligtly larger AP-sizes.

I often run all the red recordings in one go through AS!2, usually I can get away with the same settings for the green recordings, but for blue I often switch to slightly larger APs.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5068705 - 02/12/12 11:49 AM

But just to be sure - if I set 50% for the stack to make - it will stack 50% of the frames starting from the best ones?

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: PiotrM]
      #5068779 - 02/12/12 12:32 PM

Yes, of course.

When operating in MAP mode and when you use the gradient quality estimator, each frame uses the best 50% of the frames for that location (so the quality is then judged local to the AP, not on a global per frame level). When using the edge detector in MAP mode, each AP will use the exact same frames (because the edge quality detector will only provide a single estimation for the entire image).

A little trick:
A good way to find out how well a quality estimator works, is to stack only the top 5%, and play around with different quality estimator settings and carefuly analyze the stacked results. When stacking 50% of the frames it might be more difficult to tell the difference, but when only using the very best 5% of the frames any potential difference in image quality will be much easier to spot.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5068842 - 02/12/12 01:09 PM

Thanks a lot Emil for your feedback, very useful!
This program for sure makes life much easier


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5069465 - 02/12/12 07:26 PM Attachment (117 downloads)

Just tried this and this is my assessment. Fast processing, sharper detail and better contrast just with basic setting. I will present with two images one with Registax5 and one with AS. If this is anything to go by I will be using AS in the future.

It gets my thumbs up.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: rumples riot]
      #5069467 - 02/12/12 07:27 PM Attachment (93 downloads)

now the one with Reg5

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: rumples riot]
      #5069531 - 02/12/12 08:15 PM

Hi Paul what size of alignment box did you use ?
Did you use drizzle ??


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Freddy WILLEMS]
      #5069534 - 02/12/12 08:16 PM

Did not use drizzle and the alignment box was 150.

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: rumples riot]
      #5069564 - 02/12/12 08:36 PM

Paul,

Just wait until you try it on Mars. I find the improvement better than when I use it on Jupiter. Of course I was using smaller AP's...might have to experiment with the larger ones. One thing I definitely see is the the images are less grainy than with Reg.

Paul


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Sunspot]
      #5069604 - 02/12/12 09:03 PM

Hi Paul,

yes hoping to get some data on Mars this week, gully winds have been killing any chance of seeing though.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5069861 - 02/13/12 01:15 AM

I just want to report that AS2 works flawlessly under Wine in Linux, and to say thanks, Emil. This is great stuff.

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Mert]
      #5071309 - 02/13/12 10:26 PM

Hi Emil
It seems that it works great now.
Used the 150 alignment boxes (what you and Paul suggested) and no problem even drizzle with those 150 size boxes came out well !!


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Freddy WILLEMS]
      #5071649 - 02/14/12 07:37 AM

Awesome

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5072733 - 02/14/12 08:28 PM Attachment (65 downloads)

.....now that you've drawn my attention more fully to the frames/scrollbar etc in your response to my current thread Emil, I've become a little confused by what I'm seeing/interpreting there - here's a screenshot where I selected 1200 frames from one of the poorer avi's (it was late in the night amd showed a different face to Mars)

As I read it from both the position of the scrollbar slider and the info in the planet image window, as well as the graph in the other (left hand) window, I'm only looking at a stack of 739 ot 9012 instead of the 1200 I wanted/thought I was specifying....?

What's happening here.....maybe I was blissfully ignorant in all the other processes but wasn't actually getting what I thought re frame stack numbers....?


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5072752 - 02/14/12 08:41 PM

I was interpreting the "Output Images" setting checked to indicate that 1200 frames are being stacked. At least I was hoping that, so I'm interested in the answer as well.

Paul


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5072755 - 02/14/12 08:42 PM Attachment (55 downloads)

ps: my gut reaction is that I'm not interpreting the graph & figures correctly (something to do with where it's selecting all the optimum frames in the whole list..? ) because here's the R6 wavelets application window, and with my standard values I apply here this amount of denoise in slider #1 would not be enough for only 700-odd frames stacked.....

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5072770 - 02/14/12 08:53 PM Attachment (51 downloads)

.....and for completeness re this question, here's the other display in AS!2 by clicking to display the other graph view display.....

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5072813 - 02/14/12 09:19 PM

The slider and selected frame have absolute no influence on the amount of frames stacked or anything else for that matter (e.g. you cannot select a reference frame manually as you can in Registax 6, as AS!2 makes its own reference frame). It is only to preview the frames. The actual amount of frames that will be stacked, is the number you entered in the box (or the percentage you entered in the box below that).

Try placing the APs more towards the center of Mars, and also add an additional AP or two right around the center of Mars (there is plenty of detail there to track on, so placing some additional APs near edges/corners of contrast areas makes sense). Also the extra APs around the poles seems a bit too small to add anything, so I would make those a bit bigger.

One more tip: crop the planet a bit more, it should make processing a bit faster (and it makes sure the program doesn't use that much RAM memory)

And another one for free: try using the edge quality estimator and compare the resulting stack to the gradient quality estimator stack. It often works nicely on Mars, and you might get a bit more sharpness.
Now I'm off to bed....

Edited by MvZ (02/14/12 09:22 PM)


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5072838 - 02/14/12 09:36 PM

.....thanks for takng this time Emil - and I appreciate we're on different sides of the planet re sleep etc..!

I was tending towards the response you gave, and yes, I thought about placing a couple in the middle and also increasing the size around the NPC and Hellas basin areas.....and another "yes" for edge quality estimation processing.....when I put the thread together for these 3 quite good nights of imaging I'll bundle the lot into this....!

Thanks once again for this software and your assistance - greatly apreciated....!


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5072897 - 02/14/12 10:11 PM Attachment (64 downloads)

.....just for others following this particular aspect, here's one of the above R6 Mars wavelets (same values) using larger AP's centred more within the panet's disk and using slightly larger ones at the poles.....as Emil suggested, but now 1500 frames.

I'll work back through and (eventually!) post these nights' images of Mars and Saturn with both MAP's setups and results as well as "Edge" qualitor estimator.....I didn't bother about reducing the size of the whole box as my 8-thread machine makes mincemeat of the processing speeds anyway....!


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5077335 - 02/17/12 04:19 PM

One (small) frustration I'm having with the program: I'm finding it impossible to select certain image sizes with the width/height sliders. It would be great if there were text boxes where the numbers could be entered as well as the sliders...

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: GreatGigInTheSky]
      #5077544 - 02/17/12 07:00 PM

I'd second that suggestion.

Paul

Quote:

One (small) frustration I'm having with the program: I'm finding it impossible to select certain image sizes with the width/height sliders. It would be great if there were text boxes where the numbers could be entered as well as the sliders...




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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Sunspot]
      #5077610 - 02/17/12 07:55 PM

I'll look into that. In the meantime - and perhaps it's already good enough - if you click on the sliders, you can then use the left and right arrow keys to move the slider. It will be much more accurate then.

Once I found a particular image size that I'm going to use more often, I simply click the 'remember' checkbox, and each following set of images will be cropped to the remembered dimensions.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5077695 - 02/17/12 09:07 PM

That certainly makes it much easier to set an image size. Thanks for the tip.

Paul

Quote:

I'll look into that. In the meantime - and perhaps it's already good enough - if you click on the sliders, you can then use the left and right arrow keys to move the slider. It will be much more accurate then.

Once I found a particular image size that I'm going to use more often, I simply click the 'remember' checkbox, and each following set of images will be cropped to the remembered dimensions.




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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Sunspot]
      #5077750 - 02/17/12 09:59 PM

Thanks, Emil -- that's what I was looking for. It's not very easily discovered, though. Having something more standard may save you being asked the same question in the future. And yes, the remember checkbox is great, but may not help if you're going from imaging Mars, say, to Jupiter with moons...

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5080046 - 02/19/12 11:56 AM

Quote:



Once I found a particular image size that I'm going to use more often, I simply click the 'remember' checkbox, and each following set of images will be cropped to the remembered dimensions.




Also a very useful feature for processing frames for animations...

I'm getting great results from this software - thanks Emil.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Andy Taylor]
      #5080131 - 02/19/12 12:29 PM

Awesome work Emil. AS2 works very well. Here is a little comparison I did with some data I have.

larger: http://www.rankinstudio.com/dnloads/AS2.jpg


I think I am liking the AS2 / Astraimage combination best so far.

Color Example

larger: http://www.rankinstudio.com/dnloads/AS2-2.jpg


Cheers!

Edited by Rankinstudio (02/19/12 12:53 PM)


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Rankinstudio]
      #5080217 - 02/19/12 01:04 PM

Interesting. Looking at the colour images, I see some parts looking better with Reg6, for instance the barge, also the turbulent trail behind the GRS as well as overall in the equatorial region. Yet, the polar regions look better in A!S. The GRS itself is a tossup to me. This is the same sort of results I've been seeing with Jupiter as well.

Paul


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Sunspot]
      #5080232 - 02/19/12 01:12 PM

I agree Paul, it is a close call between the two. I will say a lot more effort went into the R6 version. Wavelets in R6, unsharp mask in PS, and then astraimage in PS, whereas the AS2 was just AS2 and Astraimage. They both do an excellent job of stacking, that is for sure.

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Rankinstudio]
      #5080320 - 02/19/12 02:00 PM

David,
Would you mind sharing what processing you're applying in Astraimage? I assume it's some flavor of deconvolution. I've been wondering about the possibility of skipping Registax completely when using AS2 for stacking.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: GreatGigInTheSky]
      #5080324 - 02/19/12 02:03 PM

Hi Jeff,

I am just using the wavelets in the astraimage PS plugin. I usually start with the large details then work up the finer detail sliders. Not using the deconvolution.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Rankinstudio]
      #5081205 - 02/19/12 10:34 PM Attachment (53 downloads)

Emil. I'm just getting around to trying AS!2 on some Saturn data. I'm finding it almost completely obliterates the Crepe ring. Only a very small portion of it is visible. I've tried stretching it of course in the low, mid & high levels in all my editing programs including Registax. Even before using Registax waveletts it is not visible. In this particular example/AVI it is there in the RAW data as well as after aligning/stacking in Registax.

Any help would be very much appreciated as it gives a MUCH superior stack to Registax apart from this C ring problem.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Asimov]
      #5081235 - 02/19/12 11:00 PM

Hope you can take the time to look at my thread again Emil and see what you can make of my questions to you therein...

John, can't help you at all except to say that I haven't found any problems with AS!2 and Saturn's Crepe Ring.....except to say (and I'm sure you'd appreciate this already) that gamma levels influence the Crepe Ring very significantly - but AS!2 shouldn't have any influence there on what you bung in.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5081301 - 02/19/12 11:43 PM Attachment (54 downloads)

I was about to ask you Darryl, as you're the only other guy here that (I thought) had Saturn data.

Yeah I know..about the gamma etc. Here's a registax version with all (mostly) the same levels etc. It's got me beat!

I guess I'll work it out - Gotta be something I'm doing wrong..


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Asimov]
      #5081621 - 02/20/12 09:19 AM

Could you post (or send me) the raw stacks?
Have you tried turning off the "normalize stack" option in AS!2?


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5081892 - 02/20/12 12:25 PM

Quote:

Could you post (or send me) the raw stacks?
Have you tried turning off the "normalize stack" option in AS!2?




Can do yes.

"Normalize stack" was immediately disabled by me right from the start. I don't use that in any stacking program or procedure.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Asimov]
      #5082282 - 02/20/12 04:13 PM

Actually I have 75% solved it by stacking a final from AS!2 & 1 from Registax. I'd be much happier that it didn't happen at all in AS!2 naturally. Image sent BTW.

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: GreatGigInTheSky]
      #5082573 - 02/20/12 07:21 PM

Quote:

Thanks, Emil -- that's what I was looking for. It's not very easily discovered, though. Having something more standard may save you being asked the same question in the future.




Hi Jeff - in defence of Emil on this point where you're referring to the use of the arrow keys on the keyboard to "fine adjust" the slider values, this is a standard keyboard operation (once you've clicked on the control) on just about every program application I know of.....not trying to sound clever, as I only discovered it about a year ago on something else and then found it was a universal operation almost.....


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5082808 - 02/20/12 10:13 PM

Hi Darryl,
I take your point -- I've since discovered this in some other programs (Registax, Gimp on Linux...) -- I was just unaware of it. It's just my ignorance of UI conventions...


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: GreatGigInTheSky]
      #5082825 - 02/20/12 10:19 PM

Quote:

Hi Darryl,
I take your point -- I've since discovered this in some other programs (Registax, Gimp on Linux...) -- I was just unaware of it. It's just my ignorance of UI conventions...




.....well, I was in the same boat untill I accidentally "discovered" it awhiles back Jeff - in my case, so much to learn, so little to fit it into..!

ps: talk about ignorance - what's "UI conventions"..?!?


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5083064 - 02/21/12 01:05 AM

Darryl,
UI = User Interface. So UI conventions being the standard ways that users can manipulate controls. And you think I would have encountered this before, being a computer programmer by trade, but I work on web sites doing generally back-end server stuff, so I'll have to beg pardon on that basis.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5090897 - 02/25/12 07:27 PM Attachment (41 downloads)

Emil,

As you know I drag and drop bmp files onto stacking programs (either Reg or AS!2). It seems that when I drop the bmp files on AS!2, the last bmp in the stack shows up as the first one on the display. Since I use Ninox to sort, the last bmp should be pretty lousy and the first one should be pretty good. I captured a screen to show what I mean. Be sure to note the slider position and the quality of the image. If I slide the slider only one image right, it goes from really, really bad to really good. If the quality of the first image has no effect on stacking, then it is nothing more than cosmetic. Thought you ought to know about it anyway.

Paul


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Sunspot]
      #5090920 - 02/25/12 07:40 PM

Interesting Paul, so how do your Saturn AS2 images come out ?

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Freddy WILLEMS]
      #5090959 - 02/25/12 07:53 PM

.....wonder whether this has anything to do with the "0000" - "0001" - "0002" sequence the ninox'd bmp's are presented as Paul - but AS!2 is going to do its own thing regardless (just as R6 would also) so I think it is probably a moot point...

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5091017 - 02/25/12 08:34 PM

Could be. I remember while we were testing Reg6 beta, the same thing was happening, the last frame was named 0000 I think. Cor did a bug fix to correct it.

Freddy,

AS!2 Saturn are marginally better than Reg6...slightly less grain, but all my Saturn images have way too much grain (noise) compared to Jupiter and Mars. I set gain for Saturn (in Firecapture) between 2500 and 2800. Blows me away that all you folks using the same scopes get such smooth images.

Paul


Quote:

.....wonder whether this has anything to do with the "0000" - "0001" - "0002" sequence the ninox'd bmp's are presented as Paul - but AS!2 is going to do its own thing regardless (just as R6 would also) so I think it is probably a moot point...




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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5091448 - 02/26/12 02:06 AM

You could try renaming the 0001 file to 0001a, and the 0000 file to 0001 for eg

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: claytonbigwood]
      #5091817 - 02/26/12 10:45 AM

Paul, it is indeed purely cosmetic.

AS!2 reads the filenames as Windows sends these to the program when the files are dropped on the main form. I could sort the files after AS!2 received them, perhaps I'll make some changes, but it has absolutely no effect on your results.

Like Darryl said, AS!2 does it's own thing. It will always use it's own quality estimator. The order of the frames does not matter at all. So if you want to manually exclude certain files in AS!2 (like that really blurry Saturn frame you have shown here) you simply should not drag and drop that frame on AS!2.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5092301 - 02/26/12 02:55 PM

Emil,

Thanks!! Didn't want a bug to slip by. After I do the ninox sort, I usually only drag the first 75% of the frames over. This set I dragged 100% and caught that.

Paul


Quote:

Paul, it is indeed purely cosmetic.

AS!2 reads the filenames as Windows sends these to the program when the files are dropped on the main form. I could sort the files after AS!2 received them, perhaps I'll make some changes, but it has absolutely no effect on your results.

Like Darryl said, AS!2 does it's own thing. It will always use it's own quality estimator. The order of the frames does not matter at all. So if you want to manually exclude certain files in AS!2 (like that really blurry Saturn frame you have shown here) you simply should not drag and drop that frame on AS!2.




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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Sunspot]
      #5108928 - 03/06/12 05:28 PM

I have been working on AS!2 lately. The new version will probably be online at the end of this week/early next weekend.

If you have some interesting suggestions, or ran into problems, now is the time to let me know.


2.0.0.49 - March 6 2012
- Fixed frame offset issue when stacking multiple files in a row.
- Preview first frame during batch processing.
- Fixed limited maximum memory usage on 32-bit OS to a maximum of 2 GB (on a 64-bit OS the application can use up to 4 GB). Didn't work in version 2.0.0.48, a 32-bit OS could still use more than 2 gigabytes, which is NOT allowed.
- Added support for both Jpg (or Jpeg) and PNG files (just drag and drop, always make sure you load files of the same format only, and that have the same dimension!)
- Added create master stack option (for master flats or darks).
- Added image calibration options, both a master dark and/or flat frame can be laoded to calibrate your raw images. The resolution of these frames HAS to be the same as the resolution of the raw frames. The following filteypes are supported: PNG, TIF, BMP, JPG, and PSD(!) in either 16 or 8 bit formats (16-bit is recommended).
- Interface Fix: Opening new file will correctly reset processing times of previous file.
- Interface Fix: Clicking the open file button will not immediately close the previous file.
- Interface Fix: In surface mode the offset and image center are now longer shown (white and yellow cross near the center of the screen).

2.0.0.48 - February 28 2012
- Interface fixes (show filename without path of opened file in the bottom of the main window and as the caption of the frame view window. When hovering above the filename the full filepath will be shown. The total number of files opened is also listed.)
- Fixed placing too large APs in small images (an AP must now easily fit in the frame).
- Changed minimal image size to 96x96 pixels.
- Fixed output prefix text box is now actually always a prefix, wether the files are saved in folders or not.
- Changed from a static buffer to a dynamically allocated buffer to read in AVI frames. This allows for extremely large frames to be succesfuly read (e.g. 2592 x 1944 x 3 channels) without extra memory increases for those using normal resolutions
- No longer showing a random frame when opening a new planetary imaging file, instead it shows the first frame.
- Fixed edge quality bug when using too small APs (it would hang at the end of Analysis)
- Limited maximum memory usage on 32-bit OS to a maximum of 2 GB (on a 64-bit OS the application can use up to 4 GB)
- Changed default priority of AS!2 to below normal. This has little effect to the processing speed, but it should make the system more responsive when you are also trying to perform other tasks during processing (like watching stupid movies on youtube... or making recordings)
- Fixed issue when reprocessing an entire batch of files when buffering was enabled (the program would wrongly think the first file was already buffered, which could result in either a program crash or wrong results)
- Fixed manually removing all APs now correctly disable the Process button.
- Interface Fix: enter percentage to stack during MAP mode automaticaly turns off the frame number option, and vice versa. So simply enter one of the boxes (left click) and type a % or frame number, and that is what is going to be stacked.
- Interface Fix: drizzling options better categorized (off, 1.5x, 3x)
- Edge quality checkbox changes now correctly forces new quality estimation.
- Changed drizzle filename convention (removed the . in the filename)
- Added error handling of opening/writing/closing the log-file (if it can't get access to the log-file, it will silently accept that)
- Fixed quality graph not drawing when visualisation was turned off.
- Edge quality estimator more robust against missing information or abrupt edges (e.g., when the planet is moving outside the FOV).


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5128154 - 03/18/12 08:23 AM

Emil, thanks! Excellent work!
Now there are no seams...!


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Yung]
      #5129171 - 03/18/12 07:05 PM

Thanks.

For those who missed it, version 2.1 of AutoStakkert! has just been put online. It can be downloaded at www.autostakkert.com

Some of the release notes that weren't already mentioned in a couple of posts above:

- A new checkbox Force Global Quality is added under the Gradient Quality estimator. When this option is checked it Forces all APs to use the same subset of frames (those frames with the best overall quality), instead of the default function where each AP uses its own local quality estimator and own subset of frames. The global quality results in slightly less detail per AP, but should prevent seams showing up on recordings made under variable transparancy.
- MAP is now default stacking method (this basically saves you one click).
- Clicking in the quality graph will now show the frame at that position (similar to using the framebar in the frame window). Pressing ctrl+click in the quality graph, will also set the frame percentage to stack according to the position in the graph.
- Regarding YUV avi files. AS!2 now makes use of a more conservative YUV -> RGB conversion scheme whenever it notices the used YUV format is invalid. This should remove clipping effects for certain YUV files. I would recommend to not use YUV for astronomical images in the first place, recording in RGB (or better yet, raw bayered b/w frames) makes more sense.
- Fix. Resizing the frame will now remove APs that fall outside the allowed region.
- Fixed file opening permissions to read-only, this allows to open more files that are already open in another program. Should have done this a long time ago.
- Interface Fix: changed stack at framenumber/percentage labels to hopefuly make a bit more sense.
- Interface Fix: frame numbers now run from 1 to #frames (which is what normal people like), instead of 0 to #frames-1 (which is what programmers like).

Edited by MvZ (03/18/12 07:07 PM)


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5129280 - 03/18/12 08:26 PM

Thanks for this Emil, your program is greatly appreciated!

I have never had the variable trnsparency issues and hence seams.....although several of my captures created seams in R6 if I used that program to process as opposed to AS!2

I do have another issue which I meant to email you over.....so I wonder if you could take a look at my other thread here http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5128125/page/1/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1
and comment upon whether I got hold of the wrong end of the stick with my interpretation of what you said about running "Edge" and "Gradient" estimators at the same time in AS!2....?


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5129329 - 03/18/12 08:49 PM Attachment (38 downloads)

Well rats!! I dropped 1000 bmp frames on AS!2 as always and got this error message.

Paul


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Sunspot]
      #5129434 - 03/18/12 10:08 PM

I'll look into it tomorrow Paul. There will probably be a 2.1.0.1 soon to fix some of the things I missed...

And Ill get back to you as well Darryl.

Edited by MvZ (03/18/12 10:10 PM)


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5129844 - 03/19/12 07:08 AM

Paul, you got mail!

Seems when updating some of the code which deals with reading the images, I missed a simple flag stating that an image folder was opened successfully. Fixed it in a beta version, will probably upload it to my website when Paul has had a chance to test it out for me.

Edited by MvZ (03/19/12 07:11 AM)


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5130061 - 03/19/12 10:23 AM

Got it and responded....Thanks!!

Paul


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Sunspot]
      #5134984 - 03/22/12 07:35 AM

Firstly I would like to say I think Emil is a genius! Castrator has been the bedrock of my processing for now. I love AS!2 but am having problems when using castrated raw y800 avis from IC Capture as very often the image is pure blue in AS!2 even though debayer safe is selected in Castrator and the avis work fine in Registax as do the original uncropped avis. I'm using the latest 2.01 as2 with xp and windows 7. Last night 6 out of 7 castrated avis were all blue in as!2.

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Space Cowboy]
      #5135005 - 03/22/12 07:57 AM

Stuart, as Darryl pointed out to me, you can simply do your cropping in AS!2 and forget about Castrator
I believe Castrator is an interggral part of AS!2 ??
I have yet to try this with some Y800 files as I am still debayering with the FC utility, but I will have a go tonight and let you know how I go.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: claytonbigwood]
      #5135023 - 03/22/12 08:13 AM Attachment (57 downloads)

First AVI ran like a dream
Ditto the second
Results for the second below

Edited by claytonbigwood (03/22/12 08:14 AM)


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Space Cowboy
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: claytonbigwood]
      #5135094 - 03/22/12 09:11 AM

As you say Rob as!2 crops but its so much slower compared to using a castrator cropped avi. I've just re-castrated one and its come out fine. It worked fine when I first downloaded the latest as!2 but then some came out blue again. Cannot understand it.

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Space Cowboy]
      #5135100 - 03/22/12 09:16 AM

I'm using castrator version 0.0.1.9. Castrator frees up so much space on my hard drive don't want to lose that option.

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Space Cowboy]
      #5135785 - 03/22/12 04:12 PM

Space Cowboy, could you show a screenshot of a blue avi? Does it happen consistently, each time you open a particular avi, does it come out blue?? If so, could you perhaps send the avi to me (using www.wetransfer.com or something similar)?

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5135995 - 03/22/12 06:36 PM

Yes it happens most of the time Emil. I will try and send you an avi but for now here is the blue image :



Edited by Space Cowboy (03/22/12 06:37 PM)


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Space Cowboy]
      #5136065 - 03/22/12 07:18 PM Attachment (41 downloads)

Looks like it failed to find the correct debayer scheme automatically.

Have you tried forcing AS!2 to use the correct debayer scheme (color -> Force bayer XXXX)

If I switch the red and blue channels, it looks fine again.

Edited by MvZ (03/22/12 07:20 PM)


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Space Cowboy
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5136604 - 03/23/12 02:38 AM

Cheers Emil! I must be going blind, did not see that option.

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claytonbigwood
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Space Cowboy]
      #5136656 - 03/23/12 06:01 AM

Quote:

I'm using castrator version 0.0.1.9. Castrator frees up so much space on my hard drive don't want to lose that option.



I'm guessing that you delete your originals after you "Castrate" them??
I find that compressing the files (ZIP or like) saves me extra space as well, typically 40% on a Castrated file.
I archive all my data this way now


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: claytonbigwood]
      #5136751 - 03/23/12 08:02 AM

Thanks Rob I do need to get on top of things.I tend to delete the poor stuff but zipping the good data would help for sure. Guess I've been too lazy to do that.

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Space Cowboy]
      #5140612 - 03/25/12 02:11 PM

AutoStakkert does not work for me. I open the AVI and Analyze. Then every time I hit 3) Stack nothing happens. It keeps trying to bring up the image window or whatever it is called. It would help if there was a tutorial on how to use this.

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: JoeR]
      #5141014 - 03/25/12 06:42 PM

Version 2.1.0.5 is now online ( www.autostakkert.com )

- Fixed when switching to Single AP mode, AS!2 would not stack automatically (you had to manually place an AP first).
- Maximum size of the frame is set to 30002000, internal frame size limitations have been removed. Use the INI-file to further increase the maximum image size (the INI-file contains a maxWidth and maxHeight value).
- Made edge quality estimator more robust still. It will now still provide a meaningful quality estimator whenever it encounters missing information.
- Fixed bug in detecting horizontal and vertical artefacts, causing random lockups after analysing.
- Fixed regression bug: failed to open any image files (fit, bmp, tif, jpg, etc.. it would all show there were no frames available).
- Fixed some typos.
- Fixed repeating No buffering override message for real this time

JoeR, I still haven't gotten around to writing a manual. I'll have more time later this week, perhaps in the meantime someone else can help you out? Have you looked at the first post in this thread? It should provide enough pointers to get you started. What kind of recordings are you trying to process (what is the target, how did you make the recordings)?

Edited by MvZ (03/25/12 06:44 PM)


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5141084 - 03/25/12 07:40 PM

Emil,

Got it. Are we still in beta with this release?

Paul


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Sunspot]
      #5141723 - 03/26/12 08:07 AM

I think the software will forever be in beta . I tend to break things whenever I make changes to it, so it probably isn't a good idea to call it stable.

But I do think the current version (2.1.0.5) is definately an improvement over the last one (2.1.0.0), so I suggest to update. Nothing has changed in aligning/stacking routines though, if I make such change that can really improve the image quality expect me to make a big deal out of it. Now I mainly fixed some issues with jpg/bmp/tifs/etc image files, and fixed the edge quality estimator.

Edited by MvZ (03/26/12 08:09 AM)


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5141798 - 03/26/12 09:16 AM

Quote:

JoeR, I still haven't gotten around to writing a manual. I'll have more time later this week, perhaps in the meantime someone else can help you out? Have you looked at the first post in this thread? It should provide enough pointers to get you started. What kind of recordings are you trying to process (what is the target, how did you make the recordings)?




I've been using the solar guide on your site for help. I was able to process a Saturn AVI but my Venus AVI is stuck. It is about 3GB in size. To use AS!2 I have to convert the video twice. First converted to make it the correct 640x480, for some reason when it is recorded with IC Capture the AVI picture is stretched. Then it needs converted with Virtual Dub to be readable. Lots of codec error messages before I did this. I've tried Single and Multi point on Venus and still won't work.

Another issue is I'm using a Mac with Boot Camp so I am always having to reboot between Mac OS X and Win 7 to make a SS image and process it in PS5. Also I have very limited drive space on the Windows partition. The Mac volumes are read only when botted in Win 7 so I can't write AVIs to them.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: JoeR]
      #5141941 - 03/26/12 10:40 AM

What kind of codec do you use for recording? Could you post a screenshot of AS!2 when it's stuck and fails to load an avi you made?

Perhaps you could send me the smallest possible avi of Venus that consistently fails to process in AS!2?


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LiamMcD
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5150140 - 03/31/12 12:49 PM

Hi Emil

Just a note to say Thank You! Darryl put me onto AS!2 and I'm a convert

Clear skies
Liam


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AFAdrenaline
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: LiamMcD]
      #5160425 - 04/07/12 09:49 AM

Hey Emil,

I have to say I love AS2!! Hands down my favorite stacking program for Planetary AP!

Just one little bit of feedback/wishlist... I was batch processing 100 stacks of Jupiter w/ Io and Europa for an animation I was working on. How feasible would it be to have a function where it would apply "Auto AP" for each clip when batch processing? (Like something as simple as a little check box).

The next morning when I checked the data, I noticed that about halfway through, Io went from a nice tight circle to a fuzzy looking blob... It occurred to me after the fact that it must have drifted out the AP box that was selected in the first sequence. It wasn't a huge deal, as I just went back and put some extra APs along its expected path and reprocessed the bunch.

Anyways, again, thank you for such a wonderful product. I thought the first version was great and v2 is even better!


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: AFAdrenaline]
      #5161924 - 04/08/12 10:15 AM

Quick question on Autostakkert... how do you open a sequence of TIFF file frames to work on them? The web page suggests that version 2 will take TIFF sequences, but the dialog box to open things doesn't show any of them, and only lists .AVI and .SER options as supported. Is there a trick I'm missing, or am I wrong about what it supports?

Really hope I can get it to do this; extracting frames to TIFFs seems more reliable in the Mac/IIDC to PC/stacking software conversion than most of the Quicktime MOV to AVI options.

Thanks,
--Ken T.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: woodworkt]
      #5161990 - 04/08/12 11:12 AM

Thanks Liam, and Nick!

Nick, I'll think about that. I use the solution you came up with (placing the APs at the expected locations of the moon).

Ken, try dragging and dropping either a couple of TIF files, or an entire folder of TIFFs onto the main form of AS!2. If it doesn't work, send me some of the files by email, and I'll see what I can do.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: woodworkt]
      #5162058 - 04/08/12 12:00 PM

Ken,

I drag and drop tif (and bmp) files onto AS!2 all the time. You can drag and drop the folder, or do a mass select of the number of files you want and drop them on AS!2. Make sure you open the program first...

Paul


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5162062 - 04/08/12 12:04 PM

Emil,

Another thought I had. A lot of times I'm multitasking when running AS!2 and it's running behind other screens. Would it be too hard to have the icon on the toolbar blink when AS!2 is finished with a task? No big deal if not, but I thought I'd ask. I love that Registax does that.

Thanks!!
Paul


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moxican
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Sunspot]
      #5172239 - 04/14/12 03:38 PM

I've read all over here several times that AS2 is updated to except BMP/TIF .... image files. However I am unable to open anything else with it but AVIs. Is there something I'm doing wrong? I tried drag and drop, open, nothing works.
Besides this it is a great program in some ways I found it to be better then R6.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: moxican]
      #5172248 - 04/14/12 03:45 PM

I use bmp files almost exclusively with no problems. To make sure we are doing the same thing, I open AS!2 first, then select the bmp files I want and drag them onto the AS!2 open screen. You can also drag the folder onto the open program as well if you want to process all the bmp files in the folder.

HTH.
Paul


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moxican
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Sunspot]
      #5172270 - 04/14/12 04:00 PM

Ohh ok now I got it. Here is what I was mising. To drag and drop you need to open my computer (or any file explorer) highlight there and drag and drop to AS2 from THERE. I tried to drag and drop from AS2 OPEN menu.
Thanks guys


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MvZ
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: moxican]
      #5174189 - 04/15/12 06:44 PM

Just a quick note for all those out their stacking RGB frames and wondering why the stacking stage takes a lot longer then the aligning stage when using multiple alignments: this is the result of some extremely inefficient programming (let's just call it a bug ).

Expect a fix at the end of the week which will greatly increase the stacking speed of all RGB images (avis/bmps/jpgs/etc).

Paul, I'll look into that. If it's something that is easy to implement, I might include it in the next update.

Edited by MvZ (04/15/12 06:45 PM)


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5174365 - 04/15/12 08:49 PM

It wasn't that hard to live with Emil, but I did notice that stacking took quite a while when using AS!2 on the old duo-core home pc!

I look forward to the next update of your great program!


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Tharsis
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5193572 - 04/27/12 03:00 PM

I made a little tutorial for spanish community(with your permission):

http://www.astronomo.org/foro/index.php?topic=8335.0

http://www.espacioprofundo.com.ar/foros/about20779.html

http://www.latinquasar.org/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=61&topic=10167.msg100345#msg100345


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MvZ
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Tharsis]
      #5396154 - 08/31/12 06:49 AM

New september release (planned for september 22)

List of changes:

Performance
- Both creating a reference frame and aligning the images will be about twice as fast as in 2.1.0.5.
- Stacking phase of monochrome images with no drizzling is more than 2 times faster. The stacking times of monochrome drizzling are not affected (more difficult to optimize that code, but I'll be working on it).
- RGB color file stacking received a performance boost (have not measured it)
- Several other smaller performance increases.

Fixes:
- Flat field images now working correctly
- Increased FIT support
- Increased SER support (both little and big endian formats are now correctly read)
- Drag & drop of all folders of valid images files now works correctly
- Support some deformed avis from WinJupos (problem of AS!2, not WinJupos)
- Increased AVI file support (some Y800 and RGB avi files failed to open because the indexing of the frames was relative instead of absolute)
- FITs will be read from bottom right to top left. This should be the default order for the data in these images. If you find your fit images are now displayed upside down, contact the author of the capturing software (and let me know as well )
- Fixed image offset not being applied for color recordings
- Several smaller bugfixes

New features
- Copy bitmap version of current frame to clipboard using Ctrl + C (Ctrl + shift + C will include reference rectangles). The frame will be centered according to currently selected image stabiliser.
- More frames can be used for the reference frame.
- Automatically send stacks to Registax or Photoshop after stacking (really neat, it allows you to preview the stack or start processing right away).
- Native support for MJPEG files (and very fast). I still don't like lossy codecs, but if you already have the files and want to process them directly in AS!2, you can do so now.
- Multiple stacks in MAP mode now supported (you can again create up to 8 different stacksizes in just one single run)


More to come (manually disabling frames, custom filenaming, etc)

Edited by MvZ (08/31/12 07:26 AM)


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Kokatha man
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5396177 - 08/31/12 07:12 AM

Hmmm - sounds like AS! will go like an absolute rocket in the new version, not that the i7 isn't uber-fast with AS!2 already!

As for disabling frames I guess that's good but as I've said in a couple of my threads I'm finding AS!2 doesn't seem to worry about images bouncing in and out of the sensor boundaries one iota.....last week the winds were incredible and Mars shot around like a pinball, occassionally disappearing offscreen - but it didn't seem to faze AutoStakkert, something I'd noticed in earlier situations also..!


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5396180 - 08/31/12 07:16 AM

Sounds incredible! Twice as fast......WOW! Its already twice as fast as anything else at this rate we will be processing the images in between capturing the avis!

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Space Cowboy]
      #5396183 - 08/31/12 07:20 AM

Any chance there'll be support for all AVI codecs? I cannot get any of my AVIs to load at all (MOVs converted to AVI's using conversion software)

I have the same problem with other stacking programs... Have had it since I upgraded processing equipment.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #5396190 - 08/31/12 07:34 AM

Hi Steve, I find it really difficult to add directshow support in my project. At the moment the handling of video files is all written by hand, which is pretty fast and works just the way I like it, but it does not support a lot of different formats.

What kind of conversion software are you using, and which AVI codec have you selected?


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5396262 - 08/31/12 08:58 AM

Great news Emil

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Sunspot
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5396425 - 08/31/12 10:48 AM

Emil,

Looking forward to working with it. The part about sending stacks to Registax/Photoshop sounds exciting. Talk about a time saver.

Paul


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SteveRosenow
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5396690 - 08/31/12 12:58 PM

Quote:

Hi Steve, I find it really difficult to add directshow support in my project. At the moment the handling of video files is all written by hand, which is pretty fast and works just the way I like it, but it does not support a lot of different formats.

What kind of conversion software are you using, and which AVI codec have you selected?




The conversion software I use is Pazera Free MOV-to-AVI converter. The codecs I normally select are Motion JPEG, H264-MPEG4, Divx3 Low Motion and HuffYUV lossless.

I have several Jupiter vids I'd like to convert and stack, but no program supports those codecs nor the ability to stack directly from MOV format.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #5396781 - 08/31/12 01:50 PM

If anything I would just *LOVE* for HuffYUV support.

When I capture around 3500 frames 640x480 using HuffYUV compression with K3CCDTools the file weighs in at about 465MB. Capturing the same amount of frames uncompressed is a whopping 2.04GB.

I literally heard my hard drive screaming for help when I had to re-encode the videos uncompressed just to use AS2!


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: zAmbonii]
      #5396957 - 08/31/12 04:02 PM

Could you send me a huffyuv sample?

Steve, could you send me an mjpeg sample video?

AS!2 will work with uncompressed videos, so if you can select that during converting it should work fine (if you are going to use another lossy codec to convert your MOV, then you will lose details again, so that is not recommended). The other option would be to let virtualdub recode one of the other formats (again using uncompressed formats. Make sure to select either rgb24 for color recordings, or y8 for grayscale recording).

AS!2 will only work with uncompressed formats (and the exception to this rule in the new version will be MJPEG. If huffyuv turns out to be easy to implement, I will also do that, but to be honest I think it will turn out to be too time consuming)

Edited by MvZ (08/31/12 04:25 PM)


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zAmbonii
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5397328 - 08/31/12 09:05 PM

How long of a clip would you want? I'm out of town at the moment so it may be a couple of days.

One of the reasons why I have hesitated switching to using AS was the lack of HuffYUV support. R6 handles the files well, but it has gotten to the point where I was getting tired of seams in my R6 images. Really was a cr*pshoot in getting decent images. I honestly have had no problems at all with AS with MAP alignment.

Almost forgot, I could use the Lagarith codec. not sure if it would be easier to get to work. I just have been using HuffYUV because I had never heard of Lagarith loseless codec until recently.

Edited by zAmbonii (08/31/12 09:08 PM)


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: zAmbonii]
      #5400690 - 09/03/12 08:04 AM

Sorry for the delay.

The clip does not have to be long at all, 10 frames would be enough (the contents doesn't matter)


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lcd1080
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5400831 - 09/03/12 10:28 AM

Emil would it be possible to add a feature that permits viewing of .SER files as a full motion video? I know that one can move the slider in Registax and manually view the individual frames of the .SER file in motion but one can't review the video at a constant number of frames per second (at least I've never seen that feature). I'd like to do that because one could get a better idea of how good of a capture the .SER file is before deciding whether to process it in AS!2.

Thanks,
Pete


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5413412 - 09/10/12 01:59 PM

Quote:


The other option would be to let virtualdub recode one of the other formats (again using uncompressed formats. Make sure to select either rgb24 for color recordings, or y8 for grayscale recording).




Can someone please help me figure out what I am doing wrong? I am trying to convert a vid made with EOS Mov Rec to an uncompressed avi using Virtualdub64 so I can try AutoStakkert but all I get are horrible onion rings when I apply wavelets, the video does this in AS2 and Registax.
I have set the default color depth to RGB 24 in both the decompression and output, tried auto detect, that didn't work either. Compression set to Uncompressed.
I can stack the original avi in Registax and it has no onion rings, just seams, that's why I wanted to try this program.
Am I missing something? Just "Save as AVI" right?


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5414666 - 09/11/12 06:55 AM

First of all, I often have trouble with VirtualDub64, so I just stick with the 32-bit version (1.9.11).

- open the video
- under video select full processing mode
- under video select compression, and then select (Uncompressed RGB/YCbCr)
- under video select video color depth. Set the decompression format to Autoselect, and set the output format to either Luminance only Y8 for black and white camera's, or 24 bit RGB (888) for color recordings.
- under file select save as avi, and give it an appropriate name (add Y8 or RGB to the filename for example).

You should be able to open these files in AutoStakkert!2, regardless of any codecs you have installed on your system.

Please let me know how this goes. If it doesn't work, send me a sample that fails to open (you can actually select and cut out a range of frames using virtualdub using the slider and the dark half-arrow icons at the bottom of the screen. Set a start and end point, and the selection turns blue. If you now save to avi, only the selection is saved. If this file doesn't work in AS!2, you can send it to me, as it will be much smaller than the full file).


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5414853 - 09/11/12 09:55 AM Attachment (33 downloads)

Thank Emil!
I followed your instructions exactly and had the same result. The new avi's from Vdub will open, but s soon as the wavelets are applied ringing appears, as if the file is 8 bit color.
I deleted the 64 bit Vdub version and downloaded the 32bit, the result is MUCH better, but there are still onion layers after stacking and applying wavelets.
I am sure it is a problem with my data or Vdub, and not AS!2.
I just cannot seem to git rid of the rings, is there another program I could try to convert to uncompressed avi?


Edited by shawnhar (09/11/12 10:26 AM)


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MvZ
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5414928 - 09/11/12 10:47 AM

Could you perhaps send me the original avi file so I can have a look?

Pete, couldn't you just use the analyze function first and quickly browse through the quality sorted frames using the frame slider afterwards ? It doesn't take too long to do the frame analysis right?

I could also add some kind of play button next to the frame slider, wouldn't be too difficult.


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MvZ
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5533702 - 11/22/12 10:36 AM

question from Tapio
Quote:


Emil,
[...]would like to know what method is used if you select the "sharpened stack option" ?
Wavelets ?




Nope, just some custom unsharp masking (and mixing in of the original stack).


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Andy Taylor
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5534004 - 11/22/12 02:00 PM

The "onion ring" artifacts are usually caused by underexposure.

When imaging Jupiter there is a brightness gradient at the limb. This causes wavelets to produce the onion rings.

Try bracketing with different gain levels. Back off the gain slightly when you just see the brightest areas loose detail.

Also, when shooting drop your gamma to minimum.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Andy Taylor]
      #5534083 - 11/22/12 03:16 PM

> Also, when shooting drop your gamma to minimum.
If by minimum you mean neutral, then yes, but many camera's can go in either direction of the neutral setting.


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Andy Taylor
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5534144 - 11/22/12 04:09 PM

Quote:

> Also, when shooting drop your gamma to minimum.
If by minimum you mean neutral, then yes, but many camera's can go in either direction of the neutral setting.




That's what I mean - depends on camera/driver though.

The "onion ring" effect is caused at time of capture - nothing to do with ASII.

Great software by the way.

Any chance of putting it all on one panel? There seems to be a lot of "white space" on the settings window. This could be compacted to give a full window for us with lesser screens.

I keep having to move/re-size the AP window...


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Andy Taylor]
      #5534177 - 11/22/12 04:23 PM

Come up with a good layout (paint/photoshop using screenshots of the current layout), and I'll think about it

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5539921 - 11/26/12 08:17 AM

Hello all. I just opened up a Yahoo discussion group for AutoStakkert!2

So if you have interesting new ideas that might be worthwhile to implement, or if you run into problems, have no idea which alignment point size to use or the quality settings, what the effect of drizzling is, or any other setting you dont know how to optimally use, you can post your questions in this yahoo group as well.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/autostakkert/

By the way, this does not mean I will ignore emails I receive any more than I already do, and I will also keep checking out this forum for questions, but I hope this new yahoo group turns out to be another valuable way of providing support to you.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5539937 - 11/26/12 08:41 AM

Quote:

New september release (planned for september 22)





news for this version?


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Baron]
      #5539972 - 11/26/12 09:17 AM

well done Emil.!

I do not have a planetary cam yet, but would it be possible for anyone to send me RGB videos for me to try out please using this program?

thank you


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5540006 - 11/26/12 09:54 AM

Excellent! I just joined.

Paul


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Sunspot]
      #5540762 - 11/26/12 06:20 PM

I'm with you Paul, also joined the group!

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5552719 - 12/03/12 08:03 PM Attachment (41 downloads)

Hello Emil: A great program but all of a sudden I have had a glitch develop and have attached an imaging attempt of Jupiter. The program was running fine using WinXP on my laptop and then all of a sudden this problem developed in my results. Is this an operator error or something that has happend with the AutoStakkert 2 program? Bob R.

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: runrob]
      #5553384 - 12/04/12 06:13 AM

I'm hoping it is an operator error. I answered in the yahoo-group. For those interested I copied my answer here, feel free to add comments.

--------

As far as I know, the program does not simply become corrupt, so it must either be an operator error, an error in the avi recording, and/or a bug in the program that didn't show itself because the conditions weren't right for it.

My best guess would be to run AS!2 again on the Jupiter recording, but pay very close attention to the settings you used.

It is not often that seams like this occur, usually it comes down to just a couple of settings that influence the alignment of the different points. If AS!2 for whatever reason looses track of an AP, these things can happen. Another reason is, and this to me appears to be the most likely cause here, is that Jupiter ran off the screen and wasn't fully visible?

First, visually inspect the result of the image stabilization function. After selecting planet-mode for Jupiter, go to the frame view window and drag the slider at the top of the screen from left to right to see if the alignment is good.

Then crop the width and height down significantly to speed up the processing. Jupiter is relatively small compared to all the black space around it, there does not seem to be a reason to keep all this black space here. It might also help to reduce artifacts.

Set the quality estimator to 4, and do the same visual inspection after pressing the analyze button. Is there perhaps a deformed frame in front of the bunch?

If everything was fine up to now, start with placing just one relatively large AP (still in MAP mode) and see what the stacked result looks like. Any better? Try placing more APs (manually), for now just use an AP size at least half the size of Jupiter (width and height). You can use the left mouse button to place an AP, and the right to remove one. Using the mouse wheel will change the size of an AP that is going to be placed next.

If you followed these steps carefully, and it still doesn't look good, you should try and fine a way to upload the recording so we can have a look.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Sunspot]
      #5625877 - 01/16/13 09:44 AM

Are there any guidelines for how many # of frames to select or the % for stacking? I'm currently selecting # of frames above 50% in the quality estimator graph. Thx!

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: tonyb]
      #5625929 - 01/16/13 10:22 AM

The best guideline for now is to not follow any strict guidelines, but try things out. AS!2 is fast, so you can make use of that by playing around with different stack-sizes and processing methods. Use what works for your images, under those specific conditions with that particular image scale and camera settings.

There are a couple of other things to keep in mind:
- Stacking 50% vs 60% of the frames does not make a lot of difference. Doubling the amount of frames that you stack does however, and that is when you see big differences in the resulting stack. So 5% versus 10% is a huge difference. You'll probably not even notice 25% vs 30%.
- You can't really mess up an image if you include a couple of less sharp frames. 5% of blurry frames versus 95% sharp frames will still give you a 95% sharp result.
- Processing needs to be changed depending on the amount of frames you stack (or better: on what each particular stack can handle)
- Bright and high contrast recordings (often lunar and sun recordings) usually require less frames to stack. Jupiter is full of details, but the details have pretty low contrast, and are thus easily lost in noise. So for Jupiter you normally need a lot of frames, unless you have loads of signal to work with.

The green quality graph MIGHT help a little bit, unless there is one really good or really poor frame which will bias the graph (so then the 50% line is not really useful). The grey quality line is probably a bit more indicative: if it is pretty much constant throughout the recording, never really going up or down for longer amounts of time and without a rising or slowing trend: you can probably stack a lot of frames.

But the most important thing is to try things out a lot, look at the frames, and carefully process and compare results. Play around with it. You'll probably come to some kind of agreement for each target you image. I pretty much always stack 60% of my Jupiter frames taken with the 10" telescope. With the 16" I also played around with less frames, like 30-40%. For solar recordings I only stack 150 frames (because I always worked with really low noise recordings and I know that this is about the lowest amount of frames I can stack when no matter what processing I throw at them, I get clean results).

Guidelines usually lead to sub-optimal results, especially when things change (different camera, different settings, transparency, etc etc...)

Edited by MvZ (01/16/13 10:27 AM)


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5626032 - 01/16/13 11:21 AM

Many thanks - great information.
Another question is alignment point selection - if I understand the tutorial on the AutoStakkert site, it is best to select alignment points away from Jupiter's edge. the screenshot in the tutorial shows automatic aligment points with several points right on Jupiter's edge however.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: tonyb]
      #5626049 - 01/16/13 11:44 AM

That is correct. I think the image is a bit misleading. It's not like it will go wrong if you place them like that, but the chance that it goes wrong is much higher than if you manually place the APs away from the edges.

I should probably replace the image.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5626064 - 01/16/13 11:56 AM

Many thanks and yes it might make sense to replace the image and show manually placed APs in that Jupiter example. Thanks again.

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5626187 - 01/16/13 01:20 PM

One trick I did to remove all the edge APs is to raise the Min Bright. Thx.

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: tonyb]
      #5641408 - 01/24/13 08:23 PM

So, now we might be getting somewhere. For all of you wanting to test out an alpha version(!) of AutoStakkert!2 which has some cool new features, keep reading.

I performed a little trick in AutoStakkert!2 by adding support for FFmpeg, which in turn can read pretty much any video file you throw at it. It is a trick, because it converts these files to something AutoStakkert!2 can read.

It does this completely automatically, so there is no user interaction required.

After running (and closing) AutoStakkert!2 once, in the INI file you will find the following line somewhere under [input]:
FFmpegFiles=mov mpg mpeg mkv mp4 wmv avi

This means it will automatically convert mov, mpg, mpeg, mkv, mp4 and wmv files to a readable AVI. If you open an AVI file that it can't read on its own, AS!2 will automatically convert it (it quietely tries to read it before doing any conversion). Again, no interaction is needed. If you don't want AS!2 to convert any of these files (e.g. compressed avis), simply remove the extension from the FFmpegFiles line.

!This is no excuse to start using compressed video for your recordings. Lossy compression is bad! If you have the option to record uncompressed video (or perhaps lossless compressed video, if you really want to), then you should keep doing that, as that will give you better results!

When compressing:
- It will keep both the original file AND add an extra file with the added extension '.avi'. So if the original file was named 'Jupiter.mov' the new file will be named 'Jupiter.mov.avi'.
- The '.avi' file is probably huge. You can throw it away manually if you want to (after it is not open in AS!2 anymore), and only keep the original for storage purposes. However, that means that the next time AS!2 opens the unreadable file it has to convert it again (which takes some time).
- The file is huge for a reason: it is uncompressed. You DO NOT want to perform lossy compression on a file that was already compressed before. Sometimes software will first transform a .mov into a compressed .avi, and then you need virtual dub to transform it into an uncompressed avi for AS!2 to be able to read it. That first step of performing lossy compression on an already compressed file means that the quality will be (much) lower than the .mov file directly transformed to an uncompressed .avi file.
- Whenever you tell AutoStakkert!2 to either open the original 'Jupiter.mov' when there already is a 'Jupiter.mov.avi' it will not convert the file again, but simply open the '.avi'
- If you try to open both files, it will be smart and just open the '.avi'
- If you convert an unreadable .avi because it was compressed using a codec AS!2 didn't know about, it will create an '.avi.avi' file. Say you try to open Jupiter.avi which was encoded with the xvid codec, then it will create the file Jupiter.avi.avi which is uncompressed and can be read by AS!2.
- and you guessed it: if you open both the Jupiter.avi.avi and Jupiter.avi file, it will be smart and only open Jupiter.avi.avi.
- Conversion is done BEFORE batch processing in AS!2. So if you open 10 files it will convert them all!
- Having avi in the FFmpegFiles list means it will check each and every AVI file you throw at it. This might a) make things rather slow and b) if there are invalid files it will try to convert them no matter how 'bad' they are. This might not be what you want, so remove 'avi' from FFmpegFiles if you want to keep things the way they were.

Conversion is done using the command line tool of FFmpeg. You will see a window pop up when it is working on converting the file. FFmpeg supports LOADS of file formats, more than I added in the FFmpegFiles list. If you need more files, just add the extension to the list. ffmpeg.exe is rather big (because it is a standalone tool that supports MANY codecs), so if you are not interested in any of what I just wrote, please just download the smaller zip file. You could also download a separate windows .exe version of FFmpeg if you want, it should probably work just fine. The version of FFmpeg I included is from January 2013.


Whenever I said 'will' anywhere above I really do mean 'should'. The software is ALPHA, which means it is not stable, hardly tested and I mess with features a lot. If you are not interested in any of the (many) features implemented so far, please do stay away from the alpha/beta software. If however you are interested and want to give it a go, I ask you that you report back on any problems you might encounter. That way I can try and fix things (and again, this is alpha, try to be patient).

And finally the download link:
http://www.astrokraai.nl/software/latest.html
(browse trough the list of changes to get an idea of what I changed since 2.1.0.5, the latest official stable release).

Good night,


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Freddy WILLEMS
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5641418 - 01/24/13 08:34 PM

Link does not seem to work for me Emil.

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MvZ
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Freddy WILLEMS]
      #5641438 - 01/24/13 08:43 PM

Congratulations Freddy, you just found the first bug. The link to the download page contained a typo


Edited by MvZ (01/24/13 08:44 PM)


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Freddy WILLEMS
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5641452 - 01/24/13 08:48 PM

Will try it Emil, and a big thanks for putting this all together again for us demanding imagers..

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Freddy WILLEMS
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Freddy WILLEMS]
      #5641499 - 01/24/13 09:08 PM

Works great for me Emil, but I just used my 'normal' Avi's had never a problem with loading my FireCapture Avi's into AS!2, did a 1000 and 2000 stack with 3 X drizzle, and no problems..

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Freddy WILLEMS]
      #5848217 - 05/08/13 05:02 PM

Having trouble saving when finished. Where ever it is saving it I cant find it. Have put a name in the Prefix box do the stacking and close out the program but the file is now where to be found just the original. What am I not doing right. Tks in advance for the help.

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RedLionNJ
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: star51]
      #5850317 - 05/09/13 03:43 PM

By default, AS!2 creates a subdirectory below the AVI, named something like "AS_p60_Multi", indicating 60% were stacked in multi AP mode. There should be one (or two) resulting files in that directory.

Grant


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moxican
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: RedLionNJ]
      #5893053 - 05/30/13 06:55 PM

The new version 2.3 is awesome! It is still a beta but works nice and it offers features that are pretty neat. I specially like that I am not forced to use one of the already set ROI, with simply dragging the mouse on the screen I can select any size I want. Great job Emil.
Also the support for the ASI120MC camera is also very nice which was not worked out in the previous versions.


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MrMxyzptlk
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: moxican]
      #5893372 - 05/30/13 11:37 PM

Did the 2.3 eliminate the black box error?

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moxican
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MrMxyzptlk]
      #5893409 - 05/30/13 11:57 PM

Sorry, I am not familiar with the black box error. What is it?

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MrMxyzptlk
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: moxican]
      #5893590 - 05/31/13 02:46 AM Attachment (30 downloads)

In some cases after stacking a black box appears in the picture. I don't think it is a video file problem, I'm using a DMK21AU04AS camera with ICCapture or FireCapture, and the planet imagined or the surface (Sun or Moon) does not drift too much to no drifting at all, but still after stacking the black box appears. I have attached a black boxed stack

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: moxican]
      #5893856 - 05/31/13 09:20 AM

Quote:

The new version 2.3 is awesome! It is still a beta but works nice and it offers features that are pretty neat. I specially like that I am not forced to use one of the already set ROI, with simply dragging the mouse on the screen I can select any size I want. Great job Emil.
Also the support for the ASI120MC camera is also very nice which was not worked out in the previous versions.




Gusztav, I believe you are mixing things up here and are actually talking about FireCapture which is a product of Torsten Edelmann! Thank him!

Regarding that black box: I need more information, settings, screenshots, preferably a video and exact instructions on how to reproduce the problem, otherwise I have no idea what to do here. So please help me help you (I always wanted to say that ). I have never seen this problem myself either..


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MrMxyzptlk
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #5893962 - 05/31/13 10:27 AM

I will try to find a video, I deleted most of my files last week. Maybe I got some on my laptop, I will search it later and get back to you

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moxican
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MrMxyzptlk]
      #5894794 - 05/31/13 06:07 PM

I am sorry if I've addressed my regards to the wrong place...
However I also wanted to express my appreciation for AS2
About the black box problem... I have never encountered it before, and until about a week ago I was using a DBK21AU04. So I don't think I can be any help on that.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: moxican]
      #6138582 - 10/15/13 09:03 AM

There is a new beta version available: http://www.astrokraai.nl/software/latest.html

Please let me know if you find any problems with it. It would be awesome if you could help me fix them too, by sending me instructions on how to replicate the problems!

Check the log for things that have changed.


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Mert
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #6141157 - 10/16/13 03:26 PM

Hi Emil,

Just tried the latest/greatest version and it seems as if it is even faster then before
I had some trial videos that showed up awfull after processing with strange curved lines etc.
Maybe just me, but after trying more things that went
away.
Still a bit worried though however it is the 1 and only
program I use to stack planetary nowadays.
Big thanks to you for all your effort!!!


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MvZ
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Mert]
      #6141362 - 10/16/13 05:40 PM

Thanks Mert. Curved lines sounds like unstable APs, most likely caused by image stabilization that didn't go too well. Was it a planetary video, or a video of the Moon/Sun?

If planet, then check if you selected planetary mode and browse through the frames (drag the frame slider around a bit from beginning to end) to see if the image stabilization works. The planet should be centered in all the frames. If it is moving around a lot, you should check if Dynamic threshold has been selected. If the planet is always centered, you probably need to use larger APs.

If Sun/Moon, select surface area and make sure the alignment anchor is on a good position (ctrl + click to set it around a stable location). Then after analysis, check the frames if they are more or less stabilized, all of them should pretty much overlap. If not, place the alignment anchor on a different region (perhaps make it bigger as well using the keys 1 to 9 after setting it) and try again. Only if the frames are stabilized should you proceed to the next step. And then again make sure the APs are not too small, but it is probably the first step that went wrong.

If it happens again, send me a screenshot with some instructions what you did, and we will figure out what to do about it!


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Mert
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #6142944 - 10/17/13 01:17 PM Attachment (21 downloads)

Hi Emil,

It was none of your mentioned images, it was just the
camera on the table with some paper on the opening letting
through a little light.
This was the logfile from FC:
============================
Duration=4s
Frames captured=94
File type=AVI
Extended AVI mode=false
Compressed AVI=false
Binning=no
ROI=1280x960
FPS (during start of capture)=23
Shutter=15.09ms
WBlue=94
Gain=17
WRed=43
Gamma=50 (off)
Brightness=0
AutoExposure=off
USBTraffic=63
Histogramm(min)=22
Histogramm(max)=172
Histogramm=67%
Noise(avg.deviation)=n/a
AutoAlign=false
PreFilter=none
Limit=5000 Frames
Sensor temperature=29,8 C / 85,6 F
============================

I did some trials just to be sure the camera was working
again, because I had to reflash the camera ( ASI120MC ).
When processing, it seemed as if the resolution got
cropped or compressed somehow.
I tried yesterday with a widefield lens looking up and
all works fine, no strange lines!
Problems like this seem to be related with full resolution
of 1260x960 and do not show with smaller resolution like
the standard 640x480.
Tremendous application


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zAmbonii
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Mert]
      #6143078 - 10/17/13 02:27 PM

Mert,

I think that strange stacking is due to variable brightness in the duration of the video. I would suggest selecting "variable transparency recovery" in the Advanced menu and/or checking "global" instead of "local" in the quality estimator.


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Mert
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: zAmbonii]
      #6148638 - 10/20/13 04:01 PM

Thanks zAmbonii, I'll try that as well.
As said before the problem didn't show up with the
wide-field images I tried, so likely it was just
some sort of situation where things go wrong.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Mert]
      #6148693 - 10/20/13 04:39 PM

Really faster! Thanks

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StrangeDejavu
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Gupise]
      #6170778 - 11/01/13 06:04 PM

A fellow CNer recommended AS!2 for me recently, and I just downloaded it to do some trial runs on recent AVI's. I keep getting this error when attempting to open my video files. This same file opens fine in Registax, but AS!2 doesn't appear to like it. Can someone help me out?



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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: StrangeDejavu]
      #6170791 - 11/01/13 06:11 PM

I have found that the DV codec and even RGB32 won't work with AS!2. I have to convert them using Virtual Dub and then AS!2 can read it.

AS!2 works with RGB24 though.

If you download the big version of AS!2
http://www.astrokraai.nl/software/latest.html
it comes with ffmpeg.exe which allows AS!2 to try to convert it. If you look at AutoStakkert.ini (open it with a text editor like Notepad or Word) and scroll to the bottom you will see a line you can edit to attempt even more file types to convert.


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rg55
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: WarmWeatherGuy]
      #6170797 - 11/01/13 06:14 PM

Steve, is the extra effort worth it on, say, NI5 files?

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StrangeDejavu
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: WarmWeatherGuy]
      #6170888 - 11/01/13 06:56 PM

Thanks Steve, I should have just messaged you but I don't want to overwhelm you with questions. So you convert RGB32 -> RGB24 using Virtual Dub, and AS!2 will then read the file? Is there any detail lost when converting down like that?

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: rg55]
      #6170892 - 11/01/13 06:57 PM

Quote:

Steve, is the extra effort worth it on, say, NI5 files?




To me it is. I also hear comments from most everyone who has tried AS!2 that it is the best stacker for planets.

I might use the DV codec to save disk space on my laptop but then expand them with Virtual Dub, one at a time, to run through AS!2 to obtain the .tif or .png file. Then I can delete the large .avi and think of the small DV file as my zipped file.

When possible I use RGB24, 5,000 frames for around a 5 GB file size.

Note that if you ask for 5,000 frames at 50 fps with the DV codec and your computer can't compress them that fast your resulting DV file might only have 4,000 frames. After you run it through Virtual Dub it will be a big file with 5,000 frames and 1,000 of them will be duplicates. AS!2 will see the duplicates and mark the quality of them as zero. Just look at the elapsed time (after imaging 5,000 frames, e.g.) and calculate the actual fps to see what your computer can give you. My computer can do 50 fps of RGB24 but only around 35 fps of the DV codec. By only asking for 35 fps I end up with smaller "big" .avi files after Virtual Dub.

The animation shows how the selection and number of align points on Saturn affect the final result in RegiStax 6. Because I was getting seams, bending, and other artifacts using RegiStax 6 I tried AS!2 and it is more robust. The more you look at AS!2 the more you will like it. It also centers your planet which makes animations real easy.

I love RegiStax 6 for all the other features it has (RGB align, RGB balance, histogram, gamma, wavelets, etc.). I pretty much only use AS!2 and R6 and nothing else. If I don't have iCap to give me "color enhance" then I might use PhotoShop to increase saturation a tad.



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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: StrangeDejavu]
      #6170914 - 11/01/13 07:09 PM

Quote:

Thanks Steve, I should have just messaged you but I don't want to overwhelm you with questions. So you convert RGB32 -> RGB24 using Virtual Dub, and AS!2 will then read the file? Is there any detail lost when converting down like that?




I just open the file with Virtual Dub and then save it again. You don't even have to use "old format." No detail is lost.

The intensity of each pixel color is given by one byte (8 bits) which is a number that can go from 0 through 255. In RGB24 the first 3 bytes (24 bits) give you the intensity of red, green, and blue for the first pixel. The next 3 bytes give you the intensity of red, green and blue for the second pixel, etc. With RGB32 there is a wasted byte for each pixel. Your RGB24 file will be 25% smaller than the RGB32 file and contain exactly the same data. Sometimes that extra byte can be used for "transparency" for overlays but it is wasted space for what we're using it for.


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StrangeDejavu
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: WarmWeatherGuy]
      #6170934 - 11/01/13 07:25 PM

Woohoo, no detail lost and it just trimmed almost 300 MB's off my original file. AS!2 is working with my AVI's now. A million thanks as always, Steve.

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John_K
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: StrangeDejavu]
      #6301398 - 01/09/14 06:42 AM Attachment (30 downloads)

Emil,

Congratulations again on an amazing program!!!

Just a question for you only - my moon images seem to be getting cut automatically to 704 x 512 from 640 x 480.

See attached image.

Why does this happen?


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MvZ
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: John_K]
      #6301421 - 01/09/14 07:09 AM

Hi John.

In the screenshot AS!2 just finished image stabilization. During that stage it basically tracked the wobbling of the moon caused by a bit of incorrect tracking that is always there (wind, mount instability, etc.)

In the red triangle is the region of the image that was visible throughout the entire recording. But because it wobbled a bit in any direction, the total height available when you use the 'expanding mode' is a bit more than the original 640x480.

So expand uses all the available information of a recording, but near the edges it will be rather blurry because there are fewer frames available there and also no alignment points can be placed there. In crop-mode only the area of the images are used that are visible throughout the entire field of view, and the edges will be sharp.

p.s. I suggest using the latest beta version (2.3.0.8). It runs much faster. There are some bugs in there (but more in 2.1.0.5...), and please let me know when you find one so I can attempt to fix it.


Edited by MvZ (01/09/14 07:11 AM)


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John_K
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #6301433 - 01/09/14 07:18 AM

Thanks Emil,

makes sense. Will upload the latest version as well and let you know!

John K.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: John_K]
      #6301440 - 01/09/14 07:30 AM

The link, just in case: www.autostakkert.com/beta

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #6360556 - 02/06/14 07:56 PM

Hi Emil,

I have a Venus file - approx. 50,000 frames but it is 15 GIG large! When I open the file with either version 2.1.0.5 or 2.3.0.8 at 95% processing to analyse it stops!

What is the maximum file size for AS2 or frames?


Regards,
John.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: John_K]
      #6360612 - 02/06/14 08:30 PM

Quote:

Hi Emil,

I have a Venus file - approx. 50,000 frames but it is 15 GIG large! When I open the file with either version 2.1.0.5 or 2.3.0.8 at 95% processing to analyse it stops!

What is the maximum file size for AS2 or frames?


Regards,
John.




I'll second that.

Last night I was shooting the Callisto transit of Jupiter and for the longest video I went with five minutes. I'm using the version that converts MOVs out of the D5100 to AVI.

It has done a remarkable job at converting and stacking them thus far however, when I shot a 5 minute video, I ran into trouble.

The converted file size ended up being close to 12GB and I was greeted to access violation errors.

I've subsequently deleted the video off the camera's memory card and off the hard drive because I'm running low on space, but I, too, would like to know what the maximum size is.


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Kokatha man
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: John_K]
      #6360670 - 02/06/14 09:01 PM

Quote:

Hi Emil,

I have a Venus file - approx. 50,000 frames but it is 15 GIG large! When I open the file with either version 2.1.0.5 or 2.3.0.8 at 95% processing to analyse it stops!

What is the maximum file size for AS2 or frames?

Regards,
John.




I'm sure Emil will respond here John, but I can make a couple of comments and there are a couple of questions I've been meaning to email him about but it is best to put them in this thread so everyone can read...I appreciate my long posts aren't everyone's "cup of tea" but I think "serious" imagers would benefit by reading through the following "tome" if only to convince themselves I'm really stark, raving crackers!!!

John, I've handled some "monster" files at times - looking at my Venus of 26th Jan 2014 it is a 12Gb file comprising 40,000 frames.....but you can't play them in Win Media nor can you load them directly into AS!2 without first Vdubbing them...Vdub reconstructs the missing index block if you save it as a copy after letting Vdub do this aforementioned reconstruction.....then it's playable and loadable in AS!2...remembering as Glenn commented a long time back to make sure "Direct Stream" is checked under "Video" to make sure Vdub doesn't do other things - as well as double the file-size at output!!!

I presume you've done this or something similar to get your Venus file to actually be accepted by AS!2..?

That said I ran into a similar problem to you with AS!2 2.1.05 on my home pc the other day.....strangely this doesn't occur on the same version which is loaded on my laptop - and I've re-installed this version on my home pc but with no difference!!!

This was with a (relatively) small file on Saturn with 3.8Gb of data and "only" 16000 frames - despite numerous attempts the "Analyse" phase stalled on 82% completion and would not go any further.....I could do it no worries with the laptop but "no way Jose" on the home pc..!!!

I should add that this Saturn file didn't have/need any Vdubbing in the above - Win Media Player seems to baulk at anything above 3.9Gb to 4.1Gb re playable directly whilst AS!2 is fine with direct loading of files even larger than that which WMP won't play before it needs any Vdubbing...

Also, as far as frame-counts are concerned AS!2 will handle an 84,000 frame Mars file of 6.3Gb although it does require Vdubbing to load into AS!2...

This raises another query - with the large number of frames that can be collected on Mars when running the ASI120MM at 217fps, huge frame-counts are created...anywhere between 40,000 & 50,000 at the moment within the allowable timespans: another issue with v2.1.05 appears to be with the post-"Analyse" stage of AS!2.

After "Analyse" it presents the best frame first in the order with a value of (say) "200" - whereas normally with smaller frame counts that value would read "100%"...that being considered the best frame by AS!2.

Using the scroll bar and running through the % Vs frames the order appears consistent and once returning to the "best" frame at the start it then reads "100" as expected...


But after "Stack" the correct order of frame quality which normally returns to that correct sequence displayed after "Analyse" appears all jumbled using the scroll bar and looking at the values.....

So confusing that if I wish to make several different sized stacks from the same file I resort to re-employing "Analyse" between each stack-compilation.....although I am unsure whether this is actually necessary from some little test comparisons...

Finally, there is the question about 3X & 1.5X drizzle results: normally if the data is good enough I find 3X drizzle quite beneficial most of the time and have been using it for recent Mars data with good results: drizzling imho will create an image that although requires more aggressive wavelets applications than a non-drizzled processing does appear smoother, less contrasted for similar detail-enhancement and generally much more aesthetically "appealing".....recently with current Saturn's so far from opposition still I'm finding that the 1.5X drizzle is yielding clearly superior results to either 3X or non-drizzled images.

Now I appreciate there's no such thing as 1.5X drizzle per se Emil and have read your comments about "1.5X being a "crippled" 3X drizzle" where it is resized down to 50%.....but I'd like to know what method it uses to resize down because without doubt the 1.5X drizzle outcome from AS!2 is clearly superior to the 3X drizzle even if I resample the 3X after AS!2 using any of the available methods in Registax or CS4 - regardless of whether I employ similar wavelets or even much more aggressive applications on the 3X..?!?


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #6360705 - 02/06/14 09:20 PM

Good info Darryl - I just processed a 12 gig IR685 Mars file - so I am confused why AS2 does not want to co-operate with Venus - the only difference is the frame size I have captured - and this might by be the glitch - small frames are ok with large files but not large frames.

For Venus I did not use Vdub - but have used this in the past.

I too find that sometimes there are frames that are out of order in AS2 - so lots of good frames and then a poor frame.

Hopefully others and Emil can provide some clues.


John K.


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Kokatha man
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: John_K]
      #6361321 - 02/07/14 05:55 AM

.....as a follow up from my post above re this question Emil - for 1.5X drizzle, does AS!2 rescale the final stacked image of the 3X drizzle or does it rescale the images as it is stacking..?

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #6361890 - 02/07/14 12:46 PM

.. opens up AS!2 thread.. sees a couple of replies and a huge reply by Darryl, and quietly tries to leave again...

Ok, I'll give it a go.

> The converted file size ended up being close to 12GB and I was greeted to access violation errors.
Give me a similar size recording (mov, I'll convert it myself of course), a description of the steps, and I'll happily debug the problem!

>What is the maximum file size for AS2 or frames?
I honestly don't know what the exact limit is, I don't work with files that large. Again, if someone could provide me with a file (something to be converted) or an instruction on how to generate a dataset like that, and I'll try my best to fix it.

--
I would not use 2.1.0.5 to do your testing, but revert to the latest beta version. That way you can see the bug was already fixed, or if there is still and problem and you can let me know.

Darryl, 1.5X and 3.0X drizzle recipe is identical just up to the part where the final stack is saved. For the 1.5X drizzle the 3.0X drizzle image is resized using a bicubic filter. I think the one in Photoshop that comes closest to this is the bicubic smoother resize filter.

> small frames are ok with large files but not large frames
Looks like some kind of 'memory' problem (in the way that AS!2 is trying to use the memory). Lot's of buffering is performed, and when image analyses is performed, it will create a lot of meta-data; the most memory consuming one being image quality data).

Try to check if a recording that fails during analysis runs when you:
- crop around the planet as much as possible. Open your recording, and then the first thing you should do is let AS!2 know that Venus (or Mars, or whatever) takes up no more than 'this' amount of space, and all the black space around it can be ignored. Cropping the image in AS!2 (using the width and height sliders in the frame size) makes a HUGE difference in how much memory is used, and will also generally speed things up.
- and use a higher gradient number (if you use gradient quality). Higher numbers will produce less of the mentioned meta-data.

Especially the first suggestion will likely solve all (almost all) your problems.

These new 'huge' recordings are not something that AS!2 was designed for, but there probably are ways to let it work just fine. And I have no doubt I can come up with some better code to deal with some of these things in a smarter way instead of just crashing like crazy. I do need your help to debug these problems though.

Darryl, for now: please try the latest beta versions to experiment with (and give me a short summary of what happens ).


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #6362221 - 02/07/14 03:31 PM

1st line is great Emil!

I've not done this and personally am VERY risk averse to large files:

http://www.wikihow.com/Merge-AVI-Files

Mike


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John_K
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Mike Phillips]
      #6362498 - 02/07/14 05:37 PM

Emil - thanks for the response - my file in fact is an SER file - let me know if there is somewhere where I can upload the file for you? otherwise will also try what you have mentioned to crop the file - the issue I have VDub I am sure does not open SER files.

John K.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: John_K]
      #6362558 - 02/07/14 06:02 PM

John, first try the cropping of the file in AS!2, it should be easy to test if it works then. That tip is really meant for all processing though; cropping inside AS!2 using the width and height sliders (for planetary images) speeds up processing a lot, and unless there are some interesting things visible around a small planet, there is no reason not to do this cropping.

After that - even if it works with cropping, do let me know though - you can send me the file using wetransfer for example ( use the email address here: http://www.autostakkert.com/wp/contact/ ).


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #6362561 - 02/07/14 06:03 PM

Quote:

.. opens up AS!2 thread.. sees a couple of replies and a huge reply by Darryl, and quietly tries to leave again...

Ok, I'll give it a go.

> The converted file size ended up being close to 12GB and I was greeted to access violation errors.
Give me a similar size recording (mov, I'll convert it myself of course), a description of the steps, and I'll happily debug the problem!






If tonight's skies are clear *(and I hope they are)* I will record one. I'll need to know where to send it to, or where to upload it.

-Steve


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MvZ
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #6362665 - 02/07/14 06:55 PM

> you can send me the file using wetransfer for example ( use the email address here: http://www.autostakkert.com/wp/contact/ ).

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Sunspot
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #6362686 - 02/07/14 07:05 PM

Do you still have Casterator available?

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Sunspot]
      #6362800 - 02/07/14 07:47 PM

Yea, but that definately can't handle very large files I'm afraid, to be 100% clear, here I was simply talking about the cropping in AS!2 Which is purely 'temporary' cropping for that specific run through AS!2, but it has similar speed benefits and definately reduces the programs memory foot-print quite a lot (so if you have weird crashes, this is something to test).

It is on my website: http://www.astrokraai.nl/castrator.php


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Sunspot
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #6362943 - 02/07/14 09:22 PM

Actually my request didn't have anything to do with file size thread, I was curious if it was still available...which I thank you for.

Quote:

Yea, but that definately can't handle very large files I'm afraid, to be 100% clear, here I was simply talking about the cropping in AS!2 Which is purely 'temporary' cropping for that specific run through AS!2, but it has similar speed benefits and definately reduces the programs memory foot-print quite a lot (so if you have weird crashes, this is something to test).

It is on my website: http://www.astrokraai.nl/castrator.php




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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #6365301 - 02/09/14 01:27 AM

Hi Emil,

Cropping has worked for me - now I just wish I has some good seeing to make the processing worthwhile!

FYI - for me it worked with a 15 gig SER file cropped from 640 down to about half the size.

John K.


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MvZ
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: John_K]
      #6365797 - 02/09/14 10:48 AM

Good to know John, then I suspect it really is just a memory problem because of all the overhead of larger frames especially with regards to the frame quality calculation.

I should try to think of some improvements there so at least it doesn't crash under those circumstances, but cropping is pretty much always a good idea anyways, so use that for now.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #6373324 - 02/12/14 10:29 PM

Quote:

> you can send me the file using wetransfer for example ( use the email address here: http://www.autostakkert.com/wp/contact/ ).




As luck would have it, I tried shooting Jupiter through a 'sucker hole' in the clouds tonight and lo and behold...

I got the error message.

I have included a message along with it, but in case you do not receive it, the error I get is an access violation at address 004094F2 in module AutoStakkert!2.exe. Write of address 00000002.

The file is a 356MB MOV file, converted to AVI through FFMpeg. Output of said file results in a 14GB AVI.

The version of AS!2 is Alpha Version 2.2.0.12.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #6397395 - 02/25/14 11:27 PM

Emil.....an issue with v2.1.05 appears to be with the post-"Analyse" stage of AS!2.....this and another "glitch" in v2.3.0.15 is still there, although I'm sure you'll sort them out bro!

After "Analyse" it presents the best frame first in the order with a value of "quality % 100.0"

Using the scroll bar & running through the % Vs frames the order appears consistent.

But after "Stack" the correct display of frame quality which should return to that sequence displayed after "Analyse" is altered when using the scroll bar & looking at the values.....it moves from 100% up to higher % values for the first section of the stack before dropping back to sub-100% values that then seem to follow an expected consistency...

It is confusing & makes me wonder whether the stack is still "intact" such that if I wish to make several different sized stacks from the same file I resort to re-employing "Analyse" between each stack-compilation to get "proper" readouts.....although I am unsure whether this is actually necessary from some little test comparisons...

The other more concerning aspect is that after the "Stack" stage some of the MAPs boxes become enlarged/distended - but not all the time.....left & then right mouse clicks is a quick way to resume the size etc I had placed - but it seems like something is awry.

On a more positive note I have been able to reprocess my latest Mars data where v2.1.05 could not seem to separate those frames which were horrible from the better quality ones. (ie, where the planet was blown halfway off-screen)

This compromised an rgb set but with the latest version it is sending these duds to the bottom of the heap and this set is now the best.

Disclaimer: you're a demi-god Emil - I & many others are greatly indebted to you - I'm not whinging.....I could just stay silent & work around these issues but I'm sure you would want to know..!


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #6400109 - 02/27/14 12:29 PM

Hey Darryl,
I'm a bit swamped in work atm, but I'll try to find some time this weekend to look at the issues.

A quick feedback regarding the growing AP sizes; I forgot to turn that off in this version. It is experimental code where it automatically tries to increase the AP size if it lost track for that particular AP. It was just something I played around with some time ago, but forgot about it (... yes, that happens ...).

It shouldn't happen all the time by the way, and might be an indication that the AP is a bit troublesome. Perhaps you could show a screenshot of a case where it enlarged the AP?


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Kokatha man
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #6400617 - 02/27/14 06:39 PM Attachment (21 downloads)

Hi Emil - I'd suspect the problem was more to do with the fact that the image was being blown completely off-screen during the capture rather than the AP position per se.....

With such horrendous winds it was probably both a good & bad time to test this new AS!2 version.....but it did relegate frames which displayed only half a disk image etc to the end of the quality estimation stack - which 2.1.05 wasn't doing!

I can live with it till you can fix it!


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #6431206 - 03/26/14 09:13 PM Attachment (20 downloads)

A quick update...

@Darryl, the automatic AP size increase was turned off in one of the latest beta versions.

Check the change notes to see if anything interesting happened for you: http://www.astrokraai.nl/software/latest.html
(small summary: Added an option to override 3-channel output for monochrome recordings, IRIS would otherwise interpret the stack as 8-bit instead of 16-bit. Added manual Fit and Ser scaling options. Reduced memory footprint for gradient quality 2 and 3 settings, and much much more)

Now for something that I am currently working on. Some love for those imaging with color camera's: Software atmospheric dispersion correction. But this will also be VERY interesting for 'us' monochrome imagers, because I have plans for automatic alignment for monochrome files too (not yet sure HOW to actually show this in AS!2, but I'll get there. If you have tips, let me know. ).

RGB alignment has been on my todo list for quite some time, just because it seemed like a relatively 'easy' to solve problem. This evening (night) I spent some time on writing code to see if it could be done using much of the existing alignment techniques in AS!2, and it seems it is indeed quite possible and so far is very robust as well (but I don't have that many test recordings).

So in the near future expect a version of AS!2 that can do automatic - and with sub-pixel accuracy!! - alignment of color channels. Attached are a couple of color recordings I had lying around to test things out a bit. The results - although sometimes subtle - speak for themselves. I used identical - quick and dirty - processing for the top and bottom row of each recording.

I need to write quite a bit of code to 'wrap it all up', and also want to support just dropping monochrome RGB stacks onto AS!2, but I think this is doable in the near future.

You might have noticed I said with sub-pixel accuracy, and that is indeed the case. I added a high quality bicubic interpolation technique, and it really seems to do a very good job without producing artifacts (it is a rather neutral interpolation technique, so you should be able to process the stacks as if nothing changed).

Edited by MvZ (03/26/14 09:17 PM)


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #6431235 - 03/26/14 09:33 PM

Emil, very subtle but I like it....

Love the software now and look forward to any improvements...

Best Regards,

Preston


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: PrestonE]
      #6431247 - 03/26/14 09:38 PM

If this works in batch mode this will drastically reduce the time I spend making animations. I use RegiStax 6 and can do it in less than half the time if I don't have to do RGB Align. This is fantastic. Thanks.

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Sunspot
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #6431381 - 03/26/14 10:55 PM

That will be a nice addition! One thing I like about Maxim DL is being able to do alignment on color planes to .1 pixels. If its in AS!2 that would save a step.

Paul


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bratislav
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 and line artifacts new [Re: MvZ]
      #6431610 - 03/27/14 01:52 AM Attachment (22 downloads)

Hi Emil,

first thanks for the great tool, it is incredibly powerful and very user friendly too!

One question - maybe I'm not understanding what AS!2 means by "horizontal or vertical artifacts" but I have problem with these types of frames, where there is a sharp horizontal line often intersecting the planet. I'm not sure where they originate, perhaps noise picked up through the cable, conflict at USB port readout, driver problem or something else altogether. The issue is those lines are -well- lines and as such look very sharp to AS!2 so they get rated highly. They end up at the top of the heap quality wise, even if they really should NOT. See the image below - good frame is rated at only 51% while really poor one on the right is 83%! As I stack them later, all the noisy ones are included (as they are "the best"), so they mess with good ones (and leave faint line artifacts that show up after deconvolution too).
I do have "detect horizontal of vertical artifacts" selected but it doesn't seem to be doing anything. Is there a way to do this, short of manually going through the AVI and editing them out using another tool?

Thanks
Bratislav


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MvZ
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 and line artifacts new [Re: bratislav]
      #6431749 - 03/27/14 06:22 AM

> If this works in batch mode ..

Of course it will. What I need to figure out though, is how I would like to let AS!2 deal with monochrome files and how it should recombine those automatically. I want to be able to just drag and drop a whole bunch of them - that are ordered by filename for example - and then it would output three times less aligned RGB files. The tricky part here lies in the filename:
What kind of naming convention to use? How can the program know what kind of stack is thrown at it in what position.

It is easy when there are just three files, but if there are 18, which ones to combine. If there are 19,... which one to ignore..
I would like to have a simple and full automatic solution, but it appears I should instead have a more refined interface to have more control over the process.... This is what will take the most implementation time I'm afraid, and I'm looking for good ideas here.

> That will be a nice addition! One thing I like about Maxim DL is being able to do alignment on color planes to .1 pixels. If its in AS!2 that would save a step.

Paul, AS!2 can do it in 0.0000001 precision. That is what I meant with sub-pixel accuracy.

Bratislav, those line artifacts appear to be exactly what AS!2 should filter out, but these aren't what I meant when I implemented the feature. It currently filters out bad frames that are 'wrapped' around each other, where the 'line' isn't really a line, but more a sudden transition between two parts of the image. I had never seen an artifact like you have shown here.

If it doesn't happen too often, you should manually turn off these frames using the space bar when it is selected (the frame view window must have focus).

Are these frames always with a horizontal artifact, or also vertical? Could you share a video that has these artifacts with me? I might be able to tweak the code and have these frames also filtered out, but I wont promise anything.


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KpS
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #6431761 - 03/27/14 06:47 AM

Emil, thanks for the never-ending effort to improve your excellent program. Let me ask two questions.


Autostakkert! shows for each image its quality (in parentheses), and brightness. Is the image quality proportional to its intensity or is independent of it?

Each AVI lasts for some time, and each stack has a mean time depending on the selection. I wonder whether it would be useful to provide this time as a number from the interval (0,1).


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: KpS]
      #6431768 - 03/27/14 06:55 AM

>Autostakkert! shows for each image its quality (in parentheses), and brightness. Is the image quality proportional to its intensity or is independent of it?

Depends on the option 'Variable Transparency Recovery' being selected. If that is checked, then the quality is no longer dependent on the brightness. If it is off (default), the quality is severely affected by brightness changes (lower brightness will have lower quality).

It is not recommended to leave VTR on all the time, but if you are imaging in changing transparency conditions, then it is a good idea to turn it on. You should be able to see the difference in the quality graph too.

> Each AVI lasts for some time, and each stack has a mean time depending on the selection. I wonder whether it would be useful to provide this time as a number from the interval (0,1).

How would you like to see this, as part of the stack filename?

Edited by MvZ (03/27/14 06:57 AM)


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KpS
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 new [Re: MvZ]
      #6431916 - 03/27/14 09:04 AM

Emil, thanks for the reply.

> How would you like to see this, as part of the stack filename?

Such a location would probably be best. When using FireCapture with WinJupos file naming both the time and its correction will be in plain sight.


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bratislav
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 and line artifacts new [Re: MvZ]
      #6432642 - 03/27/14 04:25 PM

Quote:


Bratislav, those line artifacts appear to be exactly what AS!2 should filter out, but these aren't what I meant when I implemented the feature. It currently filters out bad frames that are 'wrapped' around each other, where the 'line' isn't really a line, but more a sudden transition between two parts of the image. I had never seen an artifact like you have shown here.

If it doesn't happen too often, you should manually turn off these frames using the space bar when it is selected (the frame view window must have focus).

Are these frames always with a horizontal artifact, or also vertical? Could you share a video that has these artifacts with me? I might be able to tweak the code and have these frames also filtered out, but I wont promise anything.




I have seen these lines in other people's images too; I'm not entirely sure of its origin but they are always horizontal and they are always a single line. It doesn't happen very often, but some sessions will have more of those, while some be almost totally devoid of them. That is what had me puzzled about the origin. I even run my laptop on battery now to avoid any ground loops and power supply issues, it still happens. I have seen someone explained it as an USB issue (a conflict of sorts); these new cameras do stretch the bandwidth a lot. Having said that, I use USB3 ports on my laptop, so bandwidth should not be an issue ...
I'll try to edit one of my videos with those artifacts (they are several gigabytes in size) and send it to you.

Frame deselect in AS! is exactly what I wanted; thanks for that tip!

Thanks,
Bratislav


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 and line artifacts new [Re: bratislav]
      #6434491 - 03/28/14 02:10 PM

Emil, I'm looking forward to your automatic atmospheric dispersion correction feature. I use an ASI120MC at 30 degrees elevation; although I have a physical ADC I still haven't perfected its use so having a software alternative would be very helpful.

Thanks,
Pete


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troyt
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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 and line artifacts new [Re: lcd1080]
      #6438782 - 03/31/14 01:50 AM

The x,y alignment of the RGB channels looks pretty good on Saturn. I guess this would cut out a step in processing later on and if the accuracy is 0.0000001 of a pixel than it would do a better job than RegiStax etc... anyway.
With the monochrome files will it align four channels LRGB?
Either way I'm sure it will be another step forward.

Troy


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 and line artifacts new [Re: troyt]
      #6463827 - 04/13/14 12:09 PM

What does "Normalize" do? I have it checked at 40% and seem to be getting better pictures.

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 and line artifacts new [Re: Billytk]
      #6463845 - 04/13/14 12:16 PM

Quote:

What does "Normalize" do? I have it checked at 40% and seem to be getting better pictures.



It stretches your histogram. I would aim for 70% or more. The reason you don't want 90% or higher is that the histogram shifts when you sharpen your image and you don't want the histogram to be bumping 100%. By choosing a smaller value to start with you have some wiggle room. It is also helpful in batch mode for making animations. All your .tif files will have the same histogram no matter what the .avi files had. This way you can apply the same exact processing and not have any brightness fluctuations in your animation.


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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 and line artifacts new [Re: WarmWeatherGuy]
      #6464993 - 04/14/14 01:50 AM

hi Emil,

Is there a way to deselect frames in AS2?

I have an SER file which has frames out of frame as the scope was bumped - as a result AS2 is now trimming most of the file and I am having the image reduced by 50%. But if I can deselect these frames it will not do this.

I guess the only other option may be to convert to BMP or tiff and then manually remove?

thanks again for an amazing program!

John K.


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SteveRosenow
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Reged: 07/10/12

Loc: Shelton, Washington
Re: AutoStakkert! 2 and line artifacts new [Re: John_K]
      #6465025 - 04/14/14 02:29 AM

Quote:

hi Emil,

Is there a way to deselect frames in AS2?

I have an SER file which has frames out of frame as the scope was bumped - as a result AS2 is now trimming most of the file and I am having the image reduced by 50%. But if I can deselect these frames it will not do this.

I guess the only other option may be to convert to BMP or tiff and then manually remove?

thanks again for an amazing program!

John K.




I deselect frames all the time.

In the window where you set your alignpoints, there is a button on the left hand pane that expands a dialog with a complete list of all the frames. There, you can de-select certain frames.


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John_K
sage


Reged: 04/28/05

Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: AutoStakkert! 2 and line artifacts new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #6465043 - 04/14/14 03:08 AM

Thanks indeed Steve but mmm...must be missing something here or using a different version as I cannot definitely see this or not clicking on the right area!

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SteveRosenow
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Reged: 07/10/12

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 and line artifacts new [Re: John_K]
      #6465072 - 04/14/14 04:28 AM

What version are you using?

I'm using an alpha version - 2.2.0.12 - as I use it to convert MOV to AVI using the ffmpeg tool.


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MvZ
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 04/03/07

Loc: The Netherlands
Re: AutoStakkert! 2 and line artifacts new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #6465096 - 04/14/14 05:17 AM

> Is there a way to deselect frames in AS2?
Just press the space bar when the frame window is selected. It toggles the current frame. (use the latest beta)

The list view that Steve talks about has been removed in a later version. It was buggy, so I got rid of it.

> I'm using an alpha version - 2.2.0.12 - as I use it to convert MOV to AVI using the ffmpeg tool.

You can use any version after 2.2.0.12 if it has an ffmpeg.exe file in the directory containing autostakkert.exe (download it from FFmpeg.org, or just copy the one you have right now).


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MvZ
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Reged: 04/03/07

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 and line artifacts new [Re: MvZ]
      #6465098 - 04/14/14 05:24 AM

Oh, and I just wanted to say that it is really cool to see that more people actually use AutoStakkert!2.

Of course I would much rather be imaging the planets myself (preferably in good conditions), but working on AutoStakkert!2 is - in a very different way - a bit of fun too.


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SteveRosenow
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Reged: 07/10/12

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Re: AutoStakkert! 2 and line artifacts new [Re: MvZ]
      #6465107 - 04/14/14 05:52 AM

Quote:



The list view that Steve talks about has been removed in a later version. It was buggy, so I got rid of it.






I actually found that to be a great help, and I've never had a problem with it.

I don't image with a webcam (I currently lack the funds to have that sort of system in place) and all of my planetary is done using a DSLR, manually activating movie mode.

I use the list view to remove the first fifty frames as well as the last 40 frames, to eliminate camera shake and vibration from activating movie mode.


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bunyon
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Reged: 10/23/10

Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Re: AutoStakkert! 2 and line artifacts new [Re: MvZ]
      #6465147 - 04/14/14 07:12 AM

Quote:

Oh, and I just wanted to say that it is really cool to see that more people actually use AutoStakkert!2.

Of course I would much rather be imaging the planets myself (preferably in good conditions), but working on AutoStakkert!2 is - in a very different way - a bit of fun too.




One way to think of it is an imager might produce one or two good images per night. You have a big hand in producing hundreds per night (okay, tens, at least!). Can't say it enough: thanks for this massive contribution to our endeavors.


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Billytk
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Reged: 04/22/12

Loc: Lake Mary, Fl.
Re: AutoStakkert! 2 and line artifacts new [Re: bunyon]
      #6503764 - 05/03/14 09:22 AM

Bump for new members.

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Billytk
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 04/22/12

Loc: Lake Mary, Fl.
Re: AutoStakkert! 2 and line artifacts new [Re: Billytk]
      #6510485 - 05/06/14 05:45 PM

How do you clear an AP that you don't want?

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Sunspot
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Reged: 03/15/05

Loc: Surprise, AZ
Re: AutoStakkert! 2 and line artifacts new [Re: Billytk]
      #6510543 - 05/06/14 06:21 PM

Right click on it.

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Billytk
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Reged: 04/22/12

Loc: Lake Mary, Fl.
Re: AutoStakkert! 2 and line artifacts new [Re: Sunspot]
      #6510604 - 05/06/14 07:02 PM

Quote:

Right click on it.




Thank You!


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