Carl_12
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Reged: 12/05/12
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Re: [MUST SEE] is this for real?
[Re: Freddy WILLEMS]
#5563033 - 12/09/12 07:38 PM
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Freddy, that's an excellent example, thanks for posting it. (You've probably posted it before, but it's the first time I've seen it.)
I would like to share some thoughts in the hope it will help you all reach for a new frontier, become pioneers again.
Accept Ugly - The smallest objects, such as the Galilean moons, are a different proposition from the planets, you cannot go for beauty, they are too small. Don't be afraid of destroying the image as you seek ever more detail, you can always start again.
Get More Frames, Share With Others - As you know, detail is largely in the temporal dimension, that's why you're stacking. Paralax is no issue when shooting Galileans from different locations on Earth, so there is no excuse for photographers not combining their efforts. If in excellent conditions one person can obtain 1000 usable frames, 4 such individuals capturing at the same time could have 4000 frames to work with. We live in the connected age, of the social internet. Don't be isolationist, share and be social, meaningfully and creatively.
Process Every Frame, Heavily - Process at 2x or 4x the original size as a matter of routine. Not just wavelet optimisation, but deconvolve to the limit. Don't fear noise, the abundance of frames will clear it. Experiment with contrast stacking rather than blending out noise, you never know what it might reveal.
I'm sure others could add plenty to this, but I hope I've made my point. Beauty of the planets is all well and good, but in its pursuit you're presently "leaving money on the table". Go lightly and don't overdo it is an oft heard refrain. I urge you all to go for ugly, go for detail on a brutalist level. Go for Ganymede and Io, and make it a team effort. You will revitalise your hobby and will enjoy the new adventure when you start to achieve "the impossible".
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Freddy WILLEMS
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Re: [MUST SEE] is this for real?
[Re: Carl_12]
#5563082 - 12/09/12 08:18 PM
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They should PIN this advice Carl, actually that the way to go, pushing the limits every year... I'm going to reprocess IO showing the volcano maybe there might be a plume visible...
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zAmbonii
Carpal Tunnel
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Loc: Ypsilanti, MI
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Re: [MUST SEE] is this for real?
[Re: Freddy WILLEMS]
#5563120 - 12/09/12 08:55 PM
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Quote:
I'm going to reprocess IO showing the volcano maybe there might be a plume visible...
Next time I capture the ISS on video, I am going to push the processing to see if I can see an astronaut on EVA. *DUCKS*
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gavinm
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Reged: 08/26/05
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Re: [MUST SEE] is this for real?
[Re: zAmbonii]
#5563201 - 12/09/12 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm going to reprocess IO showing the volcano maybe there might be a plume visible...
Next time I capture the ISS on video, I am going to push the processing to see if I can see an astronaut on EVA. *DUCKS*
If that processing technique is as good as the bogus website imagines, you should be able to see whether he's shaved...
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Freddy WILLEMS
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Re: [MUST SEE] is this for real?
[Re: gavinm]
#5563216 - 12/09/12 09:55 PM Attachment (32 downloads)
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Ok, kept myself busy, Cloudy here now, so here is Io in good seeing, just to let you know the WINJUPOS image is on the LEFT side !! You can see vaguely the black dot of the volcano with the red outflow and the darker area's on the bottom, maybe some more details are visible, not sure. But no plume. Dam had to covert to Jpeg format !!!
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Carl_12
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Reged: 12/05/12
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Re: [MUST SEE] is this for real?
[Re: Freddy WILLEMS]
#5564436 - 12/10/12 04:19 PM
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That's a promising start, Freddy. A few more frames and more aggressive processing and I think you'll soon be posting the most detailed images of Io on these forums. What I especially like about your capture is that it nicely confirms you don't need to directly resolve a feature to show it. The red area around the volcano isn't resolved, but due to its contrast it is shown by its colour. The hope is that in favourable lighting conditions a plume may be bright enough to show up as a blob too.
Keep it up, I look forward to more. And I hope others join in.
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Jason H.
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Re: [MUST SEE] is this for real?
[Re: edsplace]
#5565050 - 12/10/12 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Emil,
All of a sudden I wish that cloudy nights had a "Like" button. I want to hit like on your last statement.
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Jason H.
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Reged: 11/23/07
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Re: [MUST SEE] is this for real?
[Re: edsplace]
#5565086 - 12/10/12 11:12 PM
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Hi Ed,
If Io = 1.2 arc sec. (per my Starry Night Pro), then Plume = .24 arc sec.? (i.e. not .05 arc sec?)
I can confirm that one plume imaged by New Horizon's Lorri appears to be 1/5th of Io's diameter; I counted pixels on a grid to check. So maybe a 25" scope is up to the task? (in the visual range, although perhaps a smaller scope could do it if the camera goes into the U.V.?)
Regards, Jason H.
Quote:
Io is around an arcsecond in diameter during an opposition such as this. looking at images the largest volcanic plume I could find was close to 1/20th of the planets diameter, of 0.05 arc seconds. So we would need to have a telescope that could resolve 1/20th of an arc second. Dawes limit to the resolving power of a telescope is R = 4.5/D (R is arcseconds, D is diameter in inches) so to resolve the largest eruption plume I could find an image of with an
Earth based telescope would need a 91" telescope. We may be able to do it with a telescope the size found at the Mount Wilson observatory if we atmospheric conditions that allowed of 0.05 arc second seeing. We find the best atmospheric seeing at high altitudes to be .4 arc seconds, at the moment we are able to use techniques that may give us .2 arc second images from such a site. That is 5X's larger than the 0.05 arc seconds we need to image the plume as 1 pixel.
It's not a case of if we think we can we can. It's beyond the limits of our instruments. Give us Mt. Palomar observatory, we will. I think Ford was a brilliant man and he is correct, his quote just does not apply here... because we can do and have done it, it just took space probes to make it happen.
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Jason H.
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Reged: 11/23/07
Loc: Central Florida
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Re: [MUST SEE] is this for real?
[Re: Freddy WILLEMS]
#5565105 - 12/10/12 11:22 PM Attachment (22 downloads)
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Hi Freddy, I know you guys are just busting chops, but just a note that the plume would be more easily resolved as a limb feature, not from above. That said, I've leaned on your image for the fun of it (I'M NOT CLAIMING JACK SQUAT ABOUT WHAT'S IN IT , could be noise, charged particles, schmutz on the lens, or the zealous beating I gave it ) I'll let you decide what's on the limb, but seriously, I didn't add what's there, just brightened it.
Jason H.
Quote:
Ok, kept myself busy, Cloudy here now, so here is Io in good seeing, just to let you know the WINJUPOS image is on the LEFT side !!
You can see vaguely the black dot of the volcano with the red outflow and the darker area's on the bottom, maybe some more details are visible, not sure. But no plume.
Dam had to covert to Jpeg format !!!
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Jason H.
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Reged: 11/23/07
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Re: [MUST SEE] is this for real?
[Re: Jason H.]
#5565108 - 12/10/12 11:25 PM Attachment (27 downloads)
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This is New Horizon's Lorri image reduced to similar scale with plume partially on limb. Maybe 2 simultaneous plumes or Tvashtar's blowing it's lid and you have a shot? Regards, Jason H.
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Freddy WILLEMS
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Re: [MUST SEE] is this for real?
[Re: Jason H.]
#5565178 - 12/11/12 12:05 AM
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Jason, actually the whole image is a fun processing. I was not going after details, seeing was average and I was NOT recording in Y800 so Autostakkerd didn't like my AVI, I guess I could have much better results at 3 X processing in AS!2 with the right codec (Y800/RGB) and using a monochrome camera...When IO's volcano is better located and seeing is good I might give it another try, BTW I did see lots of Jove's Moon images with great detail !!! SO this is only my humble, (not know what to do with it) result....
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Rankinstudio
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Re: [MUST SEE] is this for real?
[Re: Freddy WILLEMS]
#5565670 - 12/11/12 10:22 AM
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This thread is seriously crackin' me up.
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Jason H.
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Re: [MUST SEE] is this for real?
[Re: Freddy WILLEMS]
#5565738 - 12/11/12 11:10 AM Attachment (15 downloads)
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Hi Freddy,
Regarding "...When IO's volcano...", actually, there are numerous volcanoes simultaneously erupting on Io (see attached.)
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Jason H.
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Reged: 11/23/07
Loc: Central Florida
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Re: [MUST SEE] is this for real?
[Re: Jason H.]
#5565739 - 12/11/12 11:11 AM Attachment (10 downloads)
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If one volcano appears to be .24 arc second, IMO it's within the realm of possibility that 2 (or more) volcanic plumes could be aligned to subtend an angle of .5 arc seconds (or greater.) I'm not saying you did it, but I wouldn't be surprised if an amateur pulled it off some day, especially in the UV or with a big scope. (BTW I haven't visited the website the subject of this thread directly, nor do I want to based on the preview image of it and what has been said here.)
Jason H.
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edsplace
sage
   
Reged: 11/02/11
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Re: [MUST SEE] is this for real?
[Re: Jason H.]
#5565789 - 12/11/12 11:46 AM
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The plumes I saw were about 1/20th the diameter of Io in height. I stick with my math.
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Tom Polakis
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Re: [MUST SEE] is this for real?
[Re: edsplace]
#5566011 - 12/11/12 02:03 PM
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Imaging volcanic plumes on Io reminds me of the AINTNO 100 list put together for the 1991 Texas Star Party by Barbara Wilson and Larry Mitchell. AINTNO stands for "Association of Invisible Nebulae and Things Nobody Observes." These were supposed to be impossible visual observations, but some observers showed some of them are possible! Anyway, "visual eruptions of Pele on Io" is AINTNO #20. Here is the full list.
AINTNO 100
Tom
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bunyon
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Re: [MUST SEE] is this for real?
[Re: Tom Polakis]
#5566065 - 12/11/12 02:34 PM
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Tom, that's a great list. New targets! Yay!
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Freddy WILLEMS
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Re: [MUST SEE] is this for real?
[Re: bunyon]
#5566378 - 12/11/12 06:00 PM
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Really ??
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Jason H.
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Re: [MUST SEE] is this for real?
[Re: edsplace]
#5566574 - 12/11/12 09:01 PM Attachment (13 downloads)
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Quote:
The plumes I saw were about 1/20th the diameter of Io in height. I stick with my math.
I see Ed that you are looking at this in terms of "height" now, you may be right? (I was looking at it in terms of length/width of plume.) Even if we only consider the height, I was also thinking along the lines of the cloud band color transitions on Saturn or Jupiter, one can have a linear feature that is smaller than the "resolving power" of a scope and still be detectable (the photons may not be "resolved", but they're still there.) 3.5" Questars regularly can see cloud band features on Jupiter as can be seen here in these Questar shots of Jupiter that seem IMO to be considerably smaller than the transiting moons or their shadows, and similarly there are perhaps cloud band features on Saturn that seem IMO to be somewhat smaller than the Cassini Division or its moons in these Saturn Questar images here(Cassini being seen all the way around BTW, and is that Enke hinted at and even a clearly resolved much smaller inner division on the Oct. 9th image ???)
I'm sure most would agree that there are things that we all see in this forum that seem to defy what could ever be accomplished (and I'm not talking about the website referred to at the beginning of this thread); I even sort of recall perhaps 10 or 12 years ago when I was just getting more interested in Amateur Astronomy sending a message to a website administrator (not CN) that I thought it was impossible that a certain user-submitted Jupiter image could be done by a scope of that aperture (I think it was a very small Maksutov but amazing image scale), but in retrospect I was surely wrong, that guy was just ahead of his time and had a great scope, and today that image would not have been near the quality of some of the things I've seen from similar apertures, and regarding scaling, well, there are things I've learned about scaling (that I don't use), and processing that would cause me not to doubt most others again.
Anyway, just to wind this down, I think it's possible (and that's just speculation on my part) to tell if a moon limb is out of round with a .5 arc second length feature, especially if there is an albedo or color change/difference between the limb and the plume. Just a speculation, but I think it's doable. BTW, the attached is a grid layout of 1 plume, which seems IMO to have a substantial length (not height) relative to planet diameter for me to speculate that if 2 plumes overlapped, perhaps it might be detectable? Perhaps it's worth a try with a nice large scope? (which unfortunately I don't have to test that speculation.) Freddy's outcome is similar to what I'd expect to see; if one could duplicate that feature over only several consecutive video runs, I think that would be enough to show that it's really there?
Jason H.
Edited by Jason H. (12/11/12 10:11 PM)
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PaulEK
sage
   
Reged: 05/25/08
Loc: Wisconsin
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Re: [MUST SEE] is this for real?
[Re: Jason H.]
#5566770 - 12/11/12 11:25 PM
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I love how absolute hooey has led to fascinating discussion of reality.
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