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John Boudreau
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Re: Saturn+ASI120MM, Good Seeing&Lotsa Detail+Wjupos!! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5652467 - 01/30/13 02:33 PM

You've been doing some fabulous work with the ASI camera for some months now Darryl; and this is icing on the cake!


Once my new scope is up and running, I'll be seriously looking at the ASI 120MM largely due to your experiences with it.


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Sunspot
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Re: Saturn+ASI120MM, Good Seeing&Lotsa Detail+Wjupos!! new [Re: John Boudreau]
      #5652752 - 01/30/13 04:50 PM

John,

You gotta be close to getting the 14" DK, right? I think this camera is going to be a perfect match for it. You'll never need to use a barlow with it. **green with envy**

Paul


Quote:

You've been doing some fabulous work with the ASI camera for some months now Darryl; and this is icing on the cake!


Once my new scope is up and running, I'll be seriously looking at the ASI 120MM largely due to your experiences with it.




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John Boudreau
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Reged: 04/06/08

Loc: Saugus, MA
Re: Saturn+ASI120MM, Good Seeing&Lotsa Detail+Wjupos!! new [Re: Sunspot]
      #5652851 - 01/30/13 05:43 PM

Quote:

John,

You gotta be close to getting the 14" DK, right? I think this camera is going to be a perfect match for it. You'll never need to use a barlow with it. **green with envy**

Paul





Paul, I wish it was 'close'. The primary was sent to the coater back in mid-December. After a few weeks went by with no finished product, Royce contacted the coater. They claimed that they never received it! The shipper has the receiver's signature, so they searched with no luck. As it stands now, Royce has ordered a new blank and the replacement primary will be a priority. He told me this was the first time such a thing has happened to him.

So the D-K will miss this Jupiter apparition, and probably miss much of Saturn this year too.

The ASI120MM will result in a sampling rate of about .117"/pixel with the optic's advertized native 6630mm focal length.


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Kokatha man
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Re: Saturn+ASI120MM, Good Seeing&Lotsa Detail+Wjupos!! new [Re: John Boudreau]
      #5653208 - 01/30/13 09:02 PM

Thanks also (and/or again!) Agapios, Sam, "the Pauls" John, Dan, Sean & John - really appreciate the feedback and kind words.....makes me think of my bashed and bleeding forhead as a sort of "battle wound" even though it was after the event.....but I guess I could claim its' cause (extreme tiredness) was a result of the imaging efforts!

Agapios - my 5000mm (roughly 7500mm on 5.6uM sensors) would suggest 7 minutes osc runs are "easy" but you could try 8 or 9 minutes.....but then, why not split a 9 minute avi into 3X3mins avi's - I think AS!2 handles a 3-frame load so by processing the stacks from 3 of these you would imagine superior results.....my gut feeling would be that a slight bit of sharpening of each 3 minute stack would result in AS!2 working better, but it is such a good program I think that approach is well worth experimenting with.....or 3X2.5 minute avi's...

Paul (Bunyon) - heck, in my dreams maybe!!! Really, the seeing wasn't great and the collimation was crook imho.....but like anything, maybe shifting from Alpha Libra (Zuben elgenubi) across to Saturn made the mirror slip into better collimation (not inconceivable, but a bit like winning the lottery which I've never done! ) and that the seeing rose noticeably for the capture - sounds like a lot of coincidence but tbh a couple of things do make this scenario a possibility:

(1) The onscreen feeds were/are very nice, particularly the blue channel

(2) I was really surprised how good the end-images turned out because I didn't think from A Libra's DR scintillations that seeing was anything more than "reasonable" (despite my "goodish which was an after-appraisal!)

Small windows where the seeing rises markedly are quite the norm, as I'm sure I don't have to tell anyone here!

Paul - I see what's happened; you've dropped the image scale back because it needed to fit into the 800 pixel posting limits.....the actual image is considerably larger "as was."

John Rogers of the BAA has forwarded it on to a couple of relevant folks but I might send the info to some others also.

Sean, it'd be an honour to (possibly) have it in S&T.....I'll pm you to find out what you need re files etc...

John, that missing mirror is a real bummer - hope its' replacement gets the delivery a bit closer for you.....sound like around f19/20.....that should be great as Paul said.

I'm reworking the data (surprise! surprise! ) where I've placed a specific MAPs box around the NPZ and am using 4500 frames per channel instead of the 3000 p/c for the above images (still 53%+ qlty relative to the optimum frame) to see if i can eke out some more definition/clarity, especially in the NPZ region.....and wil do some Polar Projection Maps also and post sometime today... :)


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Kokatha man
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Re: Saturn+ASI120MM, Good Seeing&Lotsa Detail+Wjupos!! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5653575 - 01/31/13 03:25 AM Attachment (47 downloads)

.....ok, have half-processed the new stacks of 4500 frames per channel wherein I also placed a MAPs box around the NPZ - don't know if there's going to be much difference in the end but I did a "straight" RGB combine of this new repro data and used it to create a pair of Polar Projection maps.....including the red which Paul wanted to see.

I'm really pushed for time atm but it's cloudy also - what I really want is another crack at Saturn in reasonably good conditions asap..!

I've sorted out how I can "lock" the primary mirror in a way that should stop mirror shift/slump/sag and this is how I described my intended modus operandi to folks on another AA forum earlier today:

"...an aspect of the underlying problem that put me in the predicament with collimation I found myself in that morning looks like being an "easy fix" - much simpler than doing the same thing to my old C11 where I had to drill & tap 2 extra setscrews into the back housing of said scope (dis-assembled naturally! )

The C14 has 1/4"W (will they ever become obsolete?!? ) "locking screws" for freighting on its' rear that are unscrewed/loosened right off once you start using the scope.....I merely need to get some considerably longer replacements with (possibly) a wingnut for each and screw them back into these tapped holes...

This means that with the primary focus knob adjusted such that the primary/secondary position is set for the desired focal plane position within the Moonlite's focuser range, I can then "screw in" these longer 1/4"W setscrews to lock against or possibly screw into (just need to investigate this fact a tad more) the 2 other "branches" of the triple-tree arms & support the primary much more rigidly.....the primary focus knob is actually a setscrew attached to the 3rd arm of this triple-tree...which by screwing or unscrewing moves the primary mirror back & forth on a close-tolerance greased sleeve around the primary baffle/rear opening of these SCT's - for those who are unaware of how these instruments are engineered!

If the locking screws the scope came with originally only screwed up against these 2 other arms of the triple-tree I'll probably bore out the ends of the longer replacements and punch out a couple of Delrin tips for said like I used on my C11....."


Anyway, here's the 2 new Polar maps.....probably post the new WinJupos rgb late tonight if it turns out better than the standard one!

Edited by Kokatha man (01/31/13 09:25 AM)


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sunrutas
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Reged: 03/04/08

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Re: Saturn+ASI120MM, Good Seeing&Lotsa Detail+Wjupos!! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5653580 - 01/31/13 03:33 AM

Congrats Darryl, really amazing!

Kind regards, Roger!


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MvZ
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Loc: The Netherlands
Re: Saturn+ASI120MM, Good Seeing&Lotsa Detail+Wjupos!! new [Re: sunrutas]
      #5653635 - 01/31/13 05:52 AM

It can't get more convincing than that. Can I share that picture (with full reference of course) on a Dutch forum??

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Kokatha man
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Re: Saturn+ASI120MM, Good Seeing&Lotsa Detail+Wjupos!! new [Re: MvZ]
      #5653708 - 01/31/13 07:05 AM

Thanks Roger!

Quote:

It can't get more convincing than that. Can I share that picture (with full reference of course) on a Dutch forum??




Of course you can Emil!

Tbh I'm a bit bewidered.....untill someone reminded me about it in my previous Saturn thread I had forgotten everything I'd read on the "Hex Zone" (calling it that sounds like some paranormal TV show... )

I just want to get some nice weather now to get out and try again, particularly if I could collect enough data to do a WinJupos multi-set compilation.....BAA's John Rogers just sent me this email a little while ago (I've just edited other people's names to initials to show some privacy. )

I also wholeheartedly agree with the last paragraph below.....gives us all something to aim for - and I think my previous comments about not being able to image vortexes within the NPZ hex by us amateurs isn't correct anymore - given very good conditions!

"Hi Darryl,
Below are some comments from two professional Saturn scientists; they are very impressed! I sent it to them partly because we are just finalising a big multi-author paper on "Professional-amateur collaboration in planetary science" and this was the last sentence in the draft section on Saturn:

"As Saturn's North hemisphere receives more and more sunlight on the next few years the expectations are that amateurs may be able to observe Saturn north polar hexagon and possibly cyclonic vortices."
- John


R,
[Jaw dropped in amazement] - that's incredible! Please pass my hearty congrats along to the observer, that's the first amateur image I've ever seen of Saturn's hexagon! Are there other observers out there who can rightly claim to have 'seen it first'? This might almost be worthy of a press release of some sort. I'm off to Hawaii tomorrow to try to image this in the thermal....
Cheers,
L


Hi L,
I remember your talk at the DPS-IOPW Workshop about Saturn and images obtained by amateurs and what could be expected. I've received this fantastic amateur observation of Saturn's North Polar Hexagon and thought you might be interested in it. You can ask John Rogers for mor information about this particular image. There are some other observations of the hexagon but this one is the best so far. A similar image by Damian Peach could produce better results if projected in polar coordinates.

More of this type of images will follow in the next few months. Saturn is still very low in Europe's sky and most amateurs are still imaging Jupiter which is getting worse. Let's see what they can achieve with Saturn in April
R."


Edited by Kokatha man (01/31/13 07:06 AM)


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bunyon
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Reged: 10/23/10

Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Re: Saturn+ASI120MM, Good Seeing&Lotsa Detail+Wjupos!! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5653725 - 01/31/13 07:27 AM

I think the point that others may have made such an image is not quite right, as I said in "my" thread on this. Damian (or whoever) might have an image that WOULD show it if done with polar projection. But that isn't, or shouldn't be the point, in my opinion. You did the projection first.

The typical test is who recognized it first and reported it first. Seems pretty clearly to be you. I mean, I'm kicking myself a bit for not doing it, but that is always the case. I kick myself I didn't come up with the iphone, too.


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bunyon
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Re: Saturn+ASI120MM, Good Seeing&Lotsa Detail+Wjupos!! new [Re: bunyon]
      #5653726 - 01/31/13 07:29 AM

By the way, being a chemist (scientist type, not pharmacist), I see benzene in the hexagon. I think it may need a better name than "hexagon". Or some adjectives at least.

Maybe Santa's Hexagon.


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ToxMan
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Loc: Tucson, Arizona, USA
Re: Saturn+ASI120MM, Good Seeing&Lotsa Detail+Wjupos!! new [Re: bunyon]
      #5653753 - 01/31/13 07:43 AM

HPZ = hexagonal polar zone

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Rankinstudio
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Reged: 04/05/08

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Re: Saturn+ASI120MM, Good Seeing&Lotsa Detail+Wjupos!! new [Re: ToxMan]
      #5653849 - 01/31/13 08:58 AM

That last set is even more convincing Darryl. Amazing stuff.

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Kokatha man
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Re: Saturn+ASI120MM, Good Seeing&Lotsa Detail+Wjupos!! new [Re: Rankinstudio]
      #5653889 - 01/31/13 09:23 AM

Thanks again Paul, Paul and David!

The WinJupos repro using 4500 frames per channel will be finished tomorrow as will the Maps from said.....hoping to sort the primary mirror lock business out also then and might head back up to our imaging site afterwards, as the weather could be promising...fingers crossed!!!

Here's a link to a write-up:
http://planetaryweather.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/saturns-hexagon-viewed-from-gr...


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bunyon
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Re: Saturn+ASI120MM, Good Seeing&Lotsa Detail+Wjupos!! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5653911 - 01/31/13 09:32 AM

Wonderful write up, Darryl!

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Eddgie
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Re: Saturn + ASI120MM Goodish Seeing=Lotsa Detail!!! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5654417 - 01/31/13 02:25 PM Attachment (22 downloads)

No one should have any doubt that you captured the uneven shape of this feature.

Cassini has many images that show it clearly, though the best shots are at non-visible waveleghts (though there are visual wavelenth pictures that show it as well).

Here is a public domain Cassin pole image that shows the area, but I do not know the wavelength..

Edited by Eddgie (01/31/13 02:26 PM)


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Freddy WILLEMS
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Re: Saturn + ASI120MM Goodish Seeing=Lotsa Detail!!! new [Re: Traveler]
      #5654421 - 01/31/13 02:26 PM

Hi Darryl can I post this in my FaceBook astronomy planetary Imagers group with credits for the pro's to see ?

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Mike Phillips
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Re: Saturn + ASI120MM Goodish Seeing=Lotsa Detail!!! new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5654438 - 01/31/13 02:35 PM

I popped this over to the fine Google Plus folks I get the privilege of hanging out with for the Virtual Star parties. I hope the likes of Emily Lakdawala, Pamela Gay and Phil Plait chime in with something enlighting!

https://plus.google.com/108750361778865447048/posts/3a8JSq9hA9o

Hats off to us amateurs!

Mike


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Mert
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Re: Saturn + ASI120MM Goodish Seeing=Lotsa Detail!!! new [Re: Mike Phillips]
      #5654460 - 01/31/13 02:46 PM

Very nice write-up Darryl, congratulations on such a
spectacular image you have been able to capture!!
No doubts whatsoever on the hexagonal structure you
have captured, great stuff!!


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Mike Phillips
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Re: Saturn + ASI120MM Goodish Seeing=Lotsa Detail!!! new [Re: Mert]
      #5654484 - 01/31/13 03:03 PM

Also, if you look at some of Damian Peach's 2012 photos, there are some rounded corners on the NPZ features too.

Mike


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Freddy WILLEMS
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Re: Saturn + ASI120MM Goodish Seeing=Lotsa Detail!!! new [Re: Mike Phillips]
      #5654612 - 01/31/13 04:12 PM

See 'em all over..

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