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wenjha
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Reged: 09/24/08

Loc: SuZhou China
Re: Saturn + ASI120MM Goodish Seeing=Lotsa Detail!!! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5658943 - 02/02/13 09:18 PM

thanks Darryl
I awe you

Quote:

Thanks again for the kind comments!

Paul, I'm sure hoping to grab the Polar Vortex if at all possible - I believe the dark "border" to the NPZ is "real" but as to whether anything inside the "Hex" is or not I cannot say.....but this is half the fun of our efforts as AA'ers imo - allways trying to push the boundaries!

Quote:

ZW Optics should pay you. What a great publicity for this what seems like a great camera.




Well, Sam did give me 2 free cameras, so I really can't complain.....and it was a buzz to be so involved with Sam, Torsten & Emil in getting the camera "out-there" with such a great program as FireCapture: I looked upon my role as the "whip-hand" - Sam did his share of pleading for mercy as I kept harassing him to improve this or that etc!

Indeed that was a real privilege.....not sure if I said this before but it was a real "leap of faith" to relinquish using my Flea3 and the first time I was at Tennant Creek for Jupiter I was trying to compare each and jumping back & forth - the second time I was up there I made the decision to go with the ASI120MM solely and I was rewarded with some great images from then on.....that when I'd thought that this year in Oz was going to be very poor for Jove's apparition!

Paul & Glenn - I ended up rushing the last process in all the most important stages, I suspect the Encke isn't so kindly dealt with because of this and/or maybe WinJupos isn't so focused upon ring detail, because I did notice the rings didn't fit into the Alignment Frames the way the disk does.....the first image in this thread shows Encke much better imo...I might repro those stages when we're back home.

Also, here's part of Prof. Agustin Sanchez-Lavega's email to me where he refers to his images back in 1991 at Pic du Midi:

"Dear Darryl,
Thanks a lot for this incredible image. As you mentioned probably is the first one of the hexagon taken by an amateur astronomer.
One Saturn year ago (in 1991)! we took Saturn CCD images with the Pic-du-Midi Obs., 1 m telescope that marginally showed the hexagon and the Polar Spot then present. A paper was published in Science (attached)."


Last night was a total cloud-out but we're ready if the opportunity arises; at the very least I'd like to test the stability of the primary mirror with my new locking mechanism, and how collimation and scope movement is affected.....it was such an easy thing to make and I suspect from "feeling" the primary adjuster knob that the mirror is quite "locked" in its' present position so hopefully no more movement.....also hope I've set the focal plane correctly!!! although it will be simple to re-adjust.

Lastly here's the link to S&T's online "sky at a glance" for those interested.....

http://www.skyandtelescope.com/observing/ataglance?pos=left




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Kokatha man
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Reged: 09/13/09

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Re: Saturn + ASI120MM Goodish Seeing=Lotsa Detail!!! new [Re: wenjha]
      #5659062 - 02/02/13 10:49 PM

.....send any money you don't need to the "Build Kokatha man A Huge Transportable Telescope" fund Sam...!!

Pete, I've looked at the pdf of that paper (too big to post, almost 6Mb and you need to register/login for the link)- but here is the link again to Leigh Fletcher's blog where you can go to the Pic du Midi report if you want to...

http://planetaryweather.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/saturns-hexagon-viewed-from-gr...

I'm glad I wasn't trying to convince anyone here of the hex shape with the images therein.....but as you point out, ccd's have made enormous advances in that time!!!


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Kokatha man
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Re: Saturn + ASI120MM Goodish Seeing=Lotsa Detail!!! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5659357 - 02/03/13 04:38 AM

Hoping to image in the morning if these clouds stay away.....this morning we spent a lot of time really nailing collimation only to see clouds manifest very quickly and blot out the sky just before we were about to head for Saturn...

But them's the breaks and it happens to us all - often constantly!

I got an email from Mike Foulkes, the Director of the BAA's Saturn section today: amid all the hub-bub about the NPZ's hexagonal shape his email suggested that probably the more/most important aspect of these images is that they very clearly show the storm activity in the Nthn. Hemisphere which has only been hinted at in most current images...

Thinking about all this atm, I hope that in hindsight I'm not blamed for any "flood" of Polar Projection maps on the forums - but I do think they will be very informative as we seek to image the Polar Vortex.....and they look quite cool!


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ZielkeNightsky
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Reged: 10/01/06

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Re: Saturn + ASI120MM Goodish Seeing=Lotsa Detail!!! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5659459 - 02/03/13 07:33 AM

Amazing set of images. Congrats Daryl.

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Mirzam
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Re: Saturn + ASI120MM Goodish Seeing=Lotsa Detail!!! new [Re: ZielkeNightsky]
      #5659972 - 02/03/13 01:11 PM

Looking at the blog again, it's evident to me that other parts of Saturn's cloud structure have flat segments as well. Not just the north pole. I suspect that this has already been noted and studied by the Cassini folks.

JimC


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Mitchell Duke
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Re: Saturn + ASI120MM Goodish Seeing=Lotsa Detail!!! new [Re: Mirzam]
      #5660257 - 02/03/13 04:02 PM

Congrats Darryl!

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Kokatha man
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Re: Saturn + ASI120MM Goodish Seeing=Lotsa Detail!!! new [Re: Mitchell Duke]
      #5660383 - 02/03/13 05:16 PM

Thanks for your comments Lars, Jim and Mitchell.

It's a fairly long read (which of my posts isn't?!? ) but for those interested here's some correspondence between myself, Mike Foulkes (BAA Saturn Section Director) and John Rogers (BAA Jupiter Section Director) wher John initially commented on Ring A's seeming transparency at certain points in my image - something I think Paul (Toxman) commented upon specifically earlier on.....initially I replied with the observation that it has been a feature of numerous imagers' Saturn images from Damian Peach down.....here's the main parts of the commentary so far...with some slight editing. :)

Mike Foulkes: "Ring A is certainly translucent. This was first demonstrated by a stellar occultation observed visually in 1917. The start faded by quite a bit but was still visible when it passed behind ring A. It returned to full brightness when it passed behind the Cassini's division. This effect was seen in subsequent occultations. And the Shadow of the Rings on the Globe can be seen through Ring C with the appropriate observing geometry.

I have seen the effect shown on your images in a number of other images.

I have had a look at a few images in the archive taken when the south face was presented to the Earth. On some images there is a slighly brighter patch on Ring A coincident to where each of the limbs would be. This gives the impression that the limb is visible through Ring A - not only in monochrome images but in some colour images as well.

On some images Cassini's division appears dark where visible, except close to one limb where this patch seems to have spilled over onto the division. This gives the impression that one limb is visible through cassini's division but not at the other.

This was not always visible on images taken by the same observer."



John: "My memory from visual obs'ns and from many images, is that Ring A is not generally transparent/ translucent. However, the absolute reference must be Cassini images, and two are attached.

As you see, Ring A was clearly translucent in one image (closeup with Ring A at bottom of field), but not in the other (taken with the sun directly behind the camera; the rainbow colours in the sun reflection must be due to the spacecraft movement between the R,G,B images).

I suppose the ring is translucent in the right conditions, but not when at lower inclination nor lower phase angle (i.e. near opposition, when the glare masks features behind). Indeed it appears weakly translucent in some amateur images, inc. Damian's best-quality ones, so there could well be some reality in the appearance on your image -- my surprise was probably over-stated.

However, it looks as though it has been enhanced in your image by processing, which is also evident in other features of the image: the 'Terby spot', and dark bands parallel to the edge of the planet and the rings, and multiple bands within the rings (inc. in images by Damian, but not by Cassini)

These are common on most observers' Saturn images, and I suppose that they are due to the very high contrast across these sharp boundaries, combined with the strong processing needed to bring out small low-contrast features on the planet."


Darryl: "Hi Mike - thanks for replying: John's response and my reply are in this email - I don't want to start any "turf wars" but it seems to be similar to your own response.....anything else you might feel you wish to add, please feel free to do so if you have the time..."

Darryl: "Hi John - thanks for the reply.....something to think about ths morning over tea & toast after 3 straight mornings of clouds appearing out of nowhere just after collimating rituals following 3:30am risings and setting up procedures....!

I thought this place (just outside of "Palmer") must've been named after somewhere in England because of the weather this morning (one of my less colourfull mutterings! ) but I see I'm wrong on that one!

Anyway, it sounds like another of those artefacts induced through processing that is a product of "natural" illumination parameters - my paraphrasing of your more detailed explanation, just as the "Brightside artefact/rind" is most often visible on processed Mars' images unless dealt with in post-processing, and sometimes on Jupiter too - although with Jove it usually indicates "strong" processing...as you noted for this particular Saturn image for the selfsame reasons you articulated at the end of your email.

Thanks once again and I appreciate the comments you've made here as well as those Mike has sent me also.....something to reflect upon as we sit out this little run of frustrating weather.....oh for a "cloud filter!!!"


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wenjha
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Reged: 09/24/08

Loc: SuZhou China
Re: Saturn + ASI120MM Goodish Seeing=Lotsa Detail!!! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5660730 - 02/03/13 09:00 PM

I really have interesting to build one 14" or 16"scope this year.maybe start from the small one 14" at first

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Mike Phillips
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Re: Saturn + ASI120MM Goodish Seeing=Lotsa Detail!!! new [Re: wenjha]
      #5661421 - 02/04/13 10:09 AM

Here's a great HST animation that shows the feature's subtleness quite well.

http://youtu.be/gvptWeFPWIg

Mike


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lcd1080
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 06/03/10

Loc: Maryland, USA
Re: Saturn + ASI120MM Goodish Seeing=Lotsa Detail!!! new [Re: Mike Phillips]
      #5661649 - 02/04/13 12:19 PM

Thanks Mike, the interesting thing is that when one pauses the HST animation the hexagon isn't immediately obvious. Only when the animation is running or when viewing a polar projection does the hexagon "jump out" at the viewer.

Pete


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Mike Phillips
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Re: Saturn + ASI120MM Goodish Seeing=Lotsa Detail!!! new [Re: lcd1080]
      #5661821 - 02/04/13 01:47 PM

Quote:

Thanks Mike, the interesting thing is that when one pauses the HST animation the hexagon isn't immediately obvious. Only when the animation is running or when viewing a polar projection does the hexagon "jump out" at the viewer.

Pete




Agreed, and I'm sure there's cassini animations to back up the mighty HST's congruent assessment to ours!


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Kokatha man
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Re: Saturn + ASI120MM Goodish Seeing=Lotsa Detail!!! new [Re: Mirzam]
      #5662080 - 02/04/13 04:29 PM

Quote:

Looking at the blog again, it's evident to me that other parts of Saturn's cloud structure have flat segments as well. Not just the north pole. I suspect that this has already been noted and studied by the Cassini folks.
JimC




Good point Jim - we noted ourselves that the demarkations between bands displayed various segment shapes.....I joked that Pat was seeing "semi-hexes" almost everywhere!


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Kokatha man
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Re: Saturn + ASI120MM Goodish Seeing=Lotsa Detail!!! new [Re: Mike Phillips]
      #5662092 - 02/04/13 04:35 PM

Quote:

Here's a great HST animation that shows the feature's subtleness quite well.

http://youtu.be/gvptWeFPWIg

Mike




Very nice image animation Mike..!

Has me wondering what wavelength(s) this was images in..?

Used different filters with some nice seeing this morning for Saturn and expect some interesting outcomes when processing is finished...but tomorrow morning holds more promise so we'll stay till then and return home to finish of all the processing..!

It was quite something as the session ended with the scope pointing almost vertically skyward - an indication of the elevation we're starting to enjoy down here now!!!


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bunyon
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Re: Saturn + ASI120MM Goodish Seeing=Lotsa Detail!!! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5662112 - 02/04/13 04:51 PM

I had that skyward view of Jupiter from the Keys in December. It is, indeed, weird. In a good way. Have tomorrow.

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Fogboundturtle
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/20/09

Loc: Burnaby, BC
Re: Saturn + ASI120MM Goodish Seeing=Lotsa Detail!!! new [Re: bunyon]
      #5662144 - 02/04/13 05:17 PM

The camera is great but I believe the operator was greater. That's a picture I would probably never achieve in my lifetime. just simply amazing.

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Trevor Durity
super member


Reged: 12/01/05

Loc: Galway, Ireland
Re: Saturn + ASI120MM Goodish Seeing=Lotsa Detail!!! new [Re: Fogboundturtle]
      #5662392 - 02/04/13 08:00 PM

Awesome images!!! I just logged into the forum to see if there were any opinions on the 120 before I purchase one, and seeing your results have dispelled all fears. Gotta get me one of these! It'll be quite a step up from the ol' Toucam ;-)

Amazing work Darryl!


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Kokatha man
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Re: Saturn + ASI120MM Goodish Seeing=Lotsa Detail!!! new [Re: Trevor Durity]
      #5662769 - 02/05/13 12:41 AM

.....it (Saturn) was at 67 degrees for our last iR run Paul: atm it hits around 68 degrees about 7am.

OperaterS fbt - my wife Pat is an integral half of our imaging.....we're definitely a team and I really believe this gives some crucial advantages, especially as I've done my share of solo imaging practise!

Being very particular I guess I make the final call on everything (typical male I hear Pat & all women retort!!! ) but for feedback and some timely reminders about possible alternative opinions/points, as well as a fantastic background as a retired professional gun IT "fixer" it adds up to a lot of extra advantage.....and the company sure is nice!

I reckon this camera is a great choice Trevor, I "moved up" imo from the Flea3 so that is saying something as far as I'm concerned.....especially because I was involved with this camera from very early in its development.

Took 6 sets of rgb's this morning in "goodish" seeing again, each channel for 3 sets consisting of the obligatory 7000 frames @ 50fps.

The other 3 sets were iR-rgb sets of 5000 frames per channel where we split the 420 seconds total run into 4 channels each 105 seconds.....iR742nM's show interesting extra detail with "The Hex" standing out strongly in said: maybe some real possibilities for WinJupos stacking of multiple sets this time and am starting preliminary processing right now to finish off at home in front of the pc - but we'll stay and image tomorrow morning to see what it's like.....after that it might be a bit of a rest for a week or so!

Our battery banks have worked miracles these last few nights and are (along with dc-dc convertors for the laptop) indispensable!


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Fogboundturtle
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/20/09

Loc: Burnaby, BC
Re: Saturn + ASI120MM Goodish Seeing=Lotsa Detail!!! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5662812 - 02/05/13 01:23 AM

I didn't mean any disrespect to your wife. If I could only find a significant other that share my passion, I would be a happy man.

I hope one day I will get the chance to go down under and experience the majestic southern hemisphere. Until then I can view your threads on CN.


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Kokatha man
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Re: Saturn + ASI120MM Goodish Seeing=Lotsa Detail!!! new [Re: Fogboundturtle]
      #5662850 - 02/05/13 02:20 AM

None taken brother! Just thought I should give her the credit due to her for her input on the images - good insurance also..!

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GeorgeInDallas
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Reged: 04/15/12

Loc: Dallas, Texas USA
Re: Saturn+ASI120MM, Good Seeing&Lotsa Detail+Wjupos!! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5766803 - 03/30/13 12:38 PM

Hi,

I am enjoying reviewing your excellent Saturn images, in particular your most recent post. I notice that you have included a screen shot of your collimation image in the lower left hand corner of the image on the first post of this thread. Could you please explain how you made that collimation image. Do you have a web page or forum thread that discusses your collimation technique. I am aware of Therry Legault's page on collimation, but have been frustrated by my inability to produce anything that resembles his (computer generated) collimation images. Any help or explanations would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
George Hall
http://georgeastro.weebly.com/index.html


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