Rick Woods
Postmaster
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 6267
Loc: Inner Solar System
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So far today, Meade is down from $0.24 to $0.23. 
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- Rick
14" LX200GPS
Dyslexics Untie!
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imjeffp
Aluminum Falcon
Reged: 09/30/03
Posts: 4977
Loc: Cedar Park, Texas
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At least it's still listed. Get some while you can!
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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You only have until Feb 2, 2009 to buy some before the Naz delists them.
It's at $0.22 at the moment, although with such miniscule volume I'm not sure a 15% movement one way or another means a whole bunch. The volume today so far is 14,690 shares - a whopping $3231 - less than the price of a single 10" LX200-ACF.
Sad to see how far they've fallen.
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snowdragonusa
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/04/07
Posts: 1154
Loc: Denver, CO
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So here is a newbie question for you all... what happens with the shares you own if a company is delisted?
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Adam
12" LX200R, AT80LE
Lunt 60mm Ha & CaK solar scopes
DMK41.AS, DSI Pro, DSI-C, LPI
Denver Astronomical Society
Brighton Astronomical Group
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ColoHank
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/07/07
Posts: 669
Loc: western Colorado
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If the company is delisted, the stock may still be traded OTC (Over-The-Counter). Many investors don't bother with OTC listings and other venues for trading so-called penny stocks. If the company goes belly-up, shareholders lose.
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Questar 3.5 standard - pyrex and BB coatings
Powerguide II
8mm, 12mm, 16mm, 24mm and 32mm Brandons
modified Bogen 3030 w/ homebuilt wedge
Homebuilt Galileo scope and very large and ugly homemade tripod
other odds and ends, including iPod Touch with StarMap Pro (what a marvelous combo)...
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"Nothing exists but atoms and empty space. Everything else is opinion."
Titus Lucretius Carus 99-55 B.C.
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Joel
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/08/04
Posts: 2656
Loc: Merrimack, NH
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At this price I wouldn't mind buying shares if I could get printed stock certificates for nostalgic purposes.
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Joel
10" LX200GPS UHTC-SMT
Vixen 80EDsf
Canon unmodded 350D
QHY8
Turkey Hill Observatory
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christurner
super member
Reged: 06/24/08
Posts: 179
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
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If I were Celestron, I know what I would do!
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Chris and Family
Nova Scotia, Canada
Dark Sky Country
www.spatialenergistics.com
Platforms:
Meade LX200 ACF 12"
newstar 5.1" reflector
26mm plossl meade
13mm Ethos
Kendrick Digi10 Dew System
T1i Canon Rebel EOS
Lumicon 2" UHC filter
3 Bay SkyPod
A wife that understands!
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bicparker
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/07/05
Posts: 1759
Loc: Plano, TX
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Their earnings conference call had two analysts and one person listed as an investor who was apparently upset that he couldn't get some parts for his scope. I read the transcript and was fascinated that neither analyst asked any questions about the delisting notice and what was planned regarding it.
The discussion focused mainly on three things: 1) They are using their sales of assets and their current credit line to subsidize their operating expenses, and 2) They are still planning additional cost cuts to their operating costs, including staff cuts and other G&A (not R&D), and 3) They are projecting a pessimistic outlook in the near future. That last item was highlighted in an interesting discourse by the CEO, who basically said (in a response to a question) that they were meeting their projections and their projections were not good.
Their current market capitalization is about $5.1 million now (at their close of $0.22 today). This is way way under their book value (IIRC, about $14 million). Most of their assets are in accounts receivable and inventory, which they mentioned on the call are pledged against their credit facilities.
Basically, under NASDAQ rules, I'm not sure that there is any way they can maintain their listing, come February. But, given the absence of that discussion in the earnings call, that may, in fact, be an expected outcome.
BTW, a couple of other tidbits on that conference call... 1) Coronado manufacturing was also moved to the Mexico facility, 2) For both Meade and Coronado, they are severely backlogged and backordered on parts and finished products, and 3) They haven't been able to get any takers to lease out space at their empty (and expensive) Irvine facility.
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Bic Parker
17.5" f/5 dob
10" f/10 SCT
5" f/8 refractor
80mm f/6 refractor
66mm f/6 refractor
Plus a few others out of the rotation
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MartyT
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/28/07
Posts: 682
Loc: Kansas City
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Quote:
and one person listed as an investor who was apparently upset that he couldn't get some parts for his scope.
Don't suppose his name was Pete, was it? 
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Celestron CGE / C-11 (CGE-1100)
Megrez 90 FD APO / 0.8x FR/FF vIII
QHY8, 350D, DSI Pro, SPC900NC
KWIQ Guider (QHY5)
ETX-125AT
12" Lightbridge
My Astrophoto Gallery
Astronomical Society of Kansas City
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Pess
(Title)
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 1927
Loc: Toledo, Ohio
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Quote:
So here is a newbie question for you all... what happens with the shares you own if a company is delisted?
It just trades on the pink sheets.
The problem with Meade is that the company is virtually insolvent and expectations are for a bankruptcy.
If the company files for BK protection, then shareholders will hold worthless stock certificates. The current stock price reflects this rather obvious future.
This was patently obvious a couple years ago and discussed somewhat in numerous threads here, but many took issue with comments on Meades demise so it kinda tapered off.
Pesse (Sort of like saying she hasn't really sunk yet because the crows nest is still above water.) Mist
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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$0.20 so far today.
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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Meade's stock price vs. S&P 500
This is an ugly chart, unless you bought before 1999 and sold in 2000.
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bicparker
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/07/05
Posts: 1759
Loc: Plano, TX
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Their financials show them with a $24 million net worth while the market value of their stock is $4.67. That is wacky out of line.
At this point, I think their stock price is pretty meaningless anymore. No one is buying their stock and those that are holding aren't really going to sell. I don't know what the float (and I'm referring to whatever the practical trading float is) on this stock is, but I suspect it is small. If someone really wanted to, they could jack up the price of this stock with very little trade volume.
I'm not really sure what to make of Pess's saying that they will go bankrupt. That's a broad statement since they could either go chapter 11 (re-organization) or chapter 7 (liquidation). But, the only problem is that they really aren't insolvent. Kind of tough to declare bankruptcy with a current ratio of 2.61. It still makes more sense for them to liquidate outside of bankruptcy (which is what they have been doing for the past year and a half or so).
That doesn't mean that their financials aren't in trouble. Their balance sheet is fine (in fact, a lot of companies would love to have that kind of balance sheet). But their expenses are still too high, and as they said on the earnings call, they are going to have to cut more jobs and other Selling and General expenses.
They are downsizing... a lot. This isn't the $100+ million company that it was a few years ago (it couldn't make money back then either). Their empty Irvine facility is a big albatross around their neck right now now.
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Bic Parker
17.5" f/5 dob
10" f/10 SCT
5" f/8 refractor
80mm f/6 refractor
66mm f/6 refractor
Plus a few others out of the rotation
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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Quote:
Their financials show them with a $24 million net worth while the market value of their stock is $4.67. That is wacky out of line.
The market is wacky out of line right now. The wheels have more or less come off the wagon.
Quote:
At this point, I think their stock price is pretty meaningless anymore. No one is buying their stock and those that are holding aren't really going to sell. I don't know what the float (and I'm referring to whatever the practical trading float is) on this stock is, but I suspect it is small. If someone really wanted to, they could jack up the price of this stock with very little trade volume.
No doubt. The precipitous 15% drop that started this thread was on <$5000 volume! I wonder if everyone on the Meade forum bought 100 shares of Meade, all at the same time, if it would pop up the share price above $1? 
The reason I posted the chart is that I think it points out that institutional investors likely dumped Meade's stock years ago, and haven't looked back. Delisting isn't so bad - it's not like anyone is going to touch this thing with a 10 foot pole. Basically other than catching a piece of the internet bubble for a brief time, the stock from Meade has been a pretty lousy investment - to put it mildly.
Quote:
That doesn't mean that their financials aren't in trouble. Their balance sheet is fine (in fact, a lot of companies would love to have that kind of balance sheet). But their expenses are still too high, and as they said on the earnings call, they are going to have to cut more jobs and other Selling and General expenses.
It seems to me that their other problem is that they really have to make their line of credit last. (Or hey, become profitable.) Because it's hard to imagine they'd be able to secure additional credit anytime soon, given the present problems in the credit market, right? I think it would have been hard for them before. I think it's basically impossible at the moment.
I think it's good they have a backlog to work from. It seems to me that it's very possible that the market for astronomical gear might shrink rather rapidly, at least for a time, given the current financial mess. People seem to be panicked at the moment.
Perhaps by the time they are through their backlog, the world will be a bit calmer, and the business climate will improve for them.
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GJJim
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/09/06
Posts: 907
Loc: Western CO
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The only question now is who will acquire the inventory and other assets. This holiday buying season is going to be brutal and there is no credit available for even healthy companies. IMO Meade is not alone in this predicament and we may see other big name companies merging or sold in the coming financial storm.
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bicparker
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/07/05
Posts: 1759
Loc: Plano, TX
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Quote:
Quote:
Their financials show them with a $24 million net worth while the market value of their stock is $4.67. That is wacky out of line.
The market is wacky out of line right now. The wheels have more or less come off the wagon.
The market is off, but this disparity in Meade's stock price vs book is over 2 years old. This wacky stuff with them has little to do with the stock market conditions.
You are right, at this point, the only institutional investors of note are small cap specialists who have board membership and voting control (i.e., Sonkin's Hummingbird Fund).
I think the biggest take-aways for Meade product owners or potential owners from this last earnings call and the associated financials are that : 1) Meade is fighting a backlog on manufacturing, which also means that parts availability will be thin, 2) This Christmas season will be make or break with them.
It is also a bit concerning that they have ~$20 million in inventory and have a large backlog. To me that means that their inventory, by and large, is made up of low margin department store scopes that they can't sell. They probably aren't writing it down at this time because they will need to draw funds on their line of credit, which is partly secured by their inventory (A/R secures the rest).
Their A/R went up this last quarter by $2 million, but that is to be expected going into the Christmas season. Even then, $2 million might be considered too small of a bump since, in prior years, A/R increased quite a bit more going into the last quarter of the year.
They have to shave expenses, but they don't have enough room there to make profits. In short, they have to sell more LX-class scopes with higher margins.
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Bic Parker
17.5" f/5 dob
10" f/10 SCT
5" f/8 refractor
80mm f/6 refractor
66mm f/6 refractor
Plus a few others out of the rotation
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quantumac
sage
Reged: 12/17/07
Posts: 489
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Meade's troubles are a comment on our times.
Why buy a telescope when you can plant yourself in front of a gigantic 42 inch widescreen monitor and play World of Wastecraft all hours of the night? Oh, and lest I forget, mom and dad will buy the house a new, blazingly bright outdoor GE safety light to keep you "protected" while you're wasting your time. Why look at the sky? After all, it's just an unfathomable orange glaze.
People just don't value astronomy anymore. Why spend time with the natural world when you can live in a purely artificial, brightly lit one, where you get to smash things?
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Scope: Meade 10" LX200R
Guide/Planetary Camera: Imaging Source DBK41AF02.AS
DSO Camera: QHY8
Guide Hardware: Celestron OAG, Shoestring Astronomy GPUSB
Software: Mac OS X, Starry Night Pro, Nebulosity, PHD Guiding, PixInsight, Astro IIDC. No Windows anything.
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Rick Woods
Postmaster
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 6267
Loc: Inner Solar System
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What I want to know is, where do I get a pair of those cool glasses?!?
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- Rick
14" LX200GPS
Dyslexics Untie!
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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Quote:
It is also a bit concerning that they have ~$20 million in inventory and have a large backlog. To me that means that their inventory, by and large, is made up of low margin department store scopes that they can't sell. They probably aren't writing it down at this time because they will need to draw funds on their line of credit, which is partly secured by their inventory (A/R secures the rest).
That seems logical to me. Scary, but logical.
One question I have is "who is trading this stock?" The price moves around based on an incredibly small number of trades. I have never paid much attention to stocks that traded for less than $1. (Although I do understand why it has such crazy price swings - the volume is just super low.) Who trades shares like this, and why?
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Kolenka
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 1010
Loc: Seattle Area, WA, USA
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Quote:
Meade's troubles are a comment on our times.
Why buy a telescope when you can plant yourself in front of a gigantic 42 inch widescreen monitor and play World of Wastecraft all hours of the night? Oh, and lest I forget, mom and dad will buy the house a new, blazingly bright outdoor GE safety light to keep you "protected" while you're wasting your time. Why look at the sky? After all, it's just an unfathomable orange glaze.
People just don't value astronomy anymore. Why spend time with the natural world when you can live in a purely artificial, brightly lit one, where you get to smash things?
As a guy who owns a 42" widescreen TV, plays video games, and has a 10" LX200R in his living room... for shame. 
Not all of us ignore the environment, and we do like to share time with both nature and our electrical gadgets. Although I do know people who simply don't really care much about experiencing nature either.
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Orion XX12 / Orion 80ED OTA / AT66ED
Nagler 7T6, 9T6, 13T6, 17T4, 26T5
Canon XS, TIS DMK 31AF03, AstroTrac TT320X
Northwest Astro Photoblog
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Matthew Ota
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/30/05
Posts: 1237
Loc: Los Angeles, California
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I recall that Meade makes more profit from their cheaper telescopes than from their LX class scopes. The LX class scopes were manufactured for corporate pride. They do not make much money on their flagship scopes.
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Matthew Ota
Meade LX250GPS 10 inch SCT (Frankenscope)
Orion ED 80
Coronado Helios 1 H-alpha
TheSky 6 Pro
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Taylor
professor emeritus
Reged: 07/10/05
Posts: 601
Loc: Federal Way, WA
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Quote:
Quote:
Meade's troubles are a comment on our times.
Why buy a telescope when you can plant yourself in front of a gigantic 42 inch widescreen monitor and play World of Wastecraft all hours of the night? Oh, and lest I forget, mom and dad will buy the house a new, blazingly bright outdoor GE safety light to keep you "protected" while you're wasting your time. Why look at the sky? After all, it's just an unfathomable orange glaze.
People just don't value astronomy anymore. Why spend time with the natural world when you can live in a purely artificial, brightly lit one, where you get to smash things?
As a guy who owns a 42" widescreen TV, plays video games, and has a 10" LX200R in his living room... for shame.
Not all of us ignore the environment, and we do like to share time with both nature and our electrical gadgets. Although I do know people who simply don't really care much about experiencing nature either.
Same here, there is nothing better on a rainy day outside to place a beautiful .50 cal round straight through the bad guy's head on Xbox Live.
But when nature calls, my Nexstar 8 GPS is there with me at 2am in the shivering cold...
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Televue TV-85 and Panoramic mount
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christurner
super member
Reged: 06/24/08
Posts: 179
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
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Time for a hostile take over don't ya think! There must be someone from Celstron looking into this like hungry predators.... I know I would be!
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Chris and Family
Nova Scotia, Canada
Dark Sky Country
www.spatialenergistics.com
Platforms:
Meade LX200 ACF 12"
newstar 5.1" reflector
26mm plossl meade
13mm Ethos
Kendrick Digi10 Dew System
T1i Canon Rebel EOS
Lumicon 2" UHC filter
3 Bay SkyPod
A wife that understands!
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Kolenka
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 1010
Loc: Seattle Area, WA, USA
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Quote:
Time for a hostile take over don't ya think! There must be someone from Celstron looking into this like hungry predators.... I know I would be!
Well, except any takeover wouldn't be by Celestron. Celestron is just a brand now, not a company. Synta (owner of the Celestron name) would be the one eyeing Meade, but really, the only things Meade has that Synta might want are patents to things like the ACF corrector design.
Beyond that, Synta already has the manufacturing capabilities that Meade does, and minus scopes like the LX400 on the MaxMount, covers the same lines Meade does. Synta doesn't need to buy Meade at this point, and I'd think they would pass in an attempt to not accumulate more debt.
Also, a hostile takeover only really works when you have enough people/firms holding stock willing to sell. If you can't buy your way to 50% + 1 stock, the hostile takeover fails. All it takes is the one guy who currently has controlling interest deciding not to sell (as it is worthless right now anyways).
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Orion XX12 / Orion 80ED OTA / AT66ED
Nagler 7T6, 9T6, 13T6, 17T4, 26T5
Canon XS, TIS DMK 31AF03, AstroTrac TT320X
Northwest Astro Photoblog
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Clive Gibbons
Mostly Harmless
Reged: 05/26/05
Posts: 14148
Loc: Oort Cloud
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Stock down to 18 cents (or thereabouts).
Big sale announced for "MySky Plus" at $149 (OPT).
MySky was supposed to be the company's salvation... a huge earner. No such luck. Now, they just want to sell 'em cheap to generate cash flow.
Wal-Mart used to be a really big client, especially for Xmas merchandising. Nobody seems to know if Wal-Mart is even dealing with Meade for this season. 
By springtime, they'll be pushing up the tulips at this rate. 
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A few telescopes of dubious value.
Understanding wife, two curious cats and one sadly departed.
"Semper ubi sub ubi"
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AstroTay
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/10/06
Posts: 958
Loc: Toronto, Canada
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All this is so depressing. What's going to happen to Sky Assurance if Meade flops? Who's going to repair all these GOTO scopes and will they honor the Sky Assurance?
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Meade 10"LX200R w UHTC "Ocean Liner Anne" + wireless Autostar II 
DSI Pro w CCD Color Filter Set
Celestron NexStar 102 SLT "SteamShip Anne"
Celestron SkyMaster 15X70 Binoculars "Can-U Anne"
*New* Canon EOS Rebel XSi/450D DSLR Camera Now Moded 
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Gargoyle
super member
Reged: 03/13/08
Posts: 174
Loc: Long Island, New York
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I had the exact same thought a few weeks back (when I was having some difficulty with my LX200). Would the Sky Assurance policies be supported if Meade did not survive? Would I be throwing good money away?
I remember that some companies managed receivables for annual maintenance plans on a monthly basis, similar to holding the total funds of the maintenance payment in an account for each customer and decreasing those funds as each month went by (hitting A/R - posting revenue). In that case, the remaining funds would (or could) be returned I would guess.
I'm an IT Production Planning guy, not a Finance guy. But I do remember that unique situation and found it interesting.
Does the maintenance contract specify any continuation or cancellation statements-info?
This is a really interesting question.
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Meade 8" f/10 LX90 GPS
Meade 10" LX200-R on permanent pier
MoonLite CS 2" Focuser
ETX-125 PE
StellarVue SV80ED(Blue)and F50M2 Finder Scope
DSI ProII
DSI III
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peterm
member
Reged: 03/31/07
Posts: 24
Loc: Queensland Australia
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Just read NASDAQ have given Meade a 3 month extension (sec filings)until May 11th 2009 before delisting from main board if share price doesn't rise to $1 by then.
Does anyone know which US dealers might stock/carry spare RA & Dec motors for the 12inch LX200R?
Thanks
PeterM
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bicparker
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/07/05
Posts: 1759
Loc: Plano, TX
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Quote:
One question I have is "who is trading this stock?" The price moves around based on an incredibly small number of trades. I have never paid much attention to stocks that traded for less than $1. (Although I do understand why it has such crazy price swings - the volume is just super low.) Who trades shares like this, and why?
Well, not only is the volume low, but the float is low, so that is why Meade's stock has volatility. But to answer your question, those stock trades are likely retail trades from day traders or retirement plans (i.e., such as 401(k)'s, IRA's). At this point, it may also be folks taking losses before the end of the year. I have often held a doggy stock for the sole purpose of using its loss to offset a gain in the sale of another stock.
But I agree, beyond what I just described, it is a mystery to me. There are folks, though, who play penny stocks and may see this as a temporary play as it is still NASDAQ listed. That is a side of the market I would stay out of, however
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Bic Parker
17.5" f/5 dob
10" f/10 SCT
5" f/8 refractor
80mm f/6 refractor
66mm f/6 refractor
Plus a few others out of the rotation
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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Quote:
Synta (owner of the Celestron name) would be the one eyeing Meade, but really, the only things Meade has that Synta might want are patents to things like the ACF corrector design.
Yup, that's right. And they don't really need to buy Meade to get it.
Quote:
Beyond that, Synta already has the manufacturing capabilities that Meade does, and minus scopes like the LX400 on the MaxMount, covers the same lines Meade does. Synta doesn't need to buy Meade at this point, and I'd think they would pass in an attempt to not accumulate more debt.
Also it's hard to rid yourself of a factory in Mexico. Well, the factory isn't really the problem - it's the workers. The Mexican government is really funny about layoffs - they don't much allow you to do that. They make you sign lots of neat agreements that prevent you from doing that very thing. (Sure, you can lay people off - but you have to keep paying them for quite some time afterwards.) I would be surprised if an Asian optical manufacturer has no need nor desire for a plant in Mexico.
They (Synta / Celestron) obviously have no interest in the part of the market addressed by the LX400 on a MaxMount. They stopped development of their large capacity mount, and they allowed the Celestron 20 design to more or less walk out the door with the former owners of Celestron. So it doesn't seem too likely that under the current, more trying times, they'd suddenly decide that they had to have the LX400/MaxMount. (Nothing against the MaxMount / LX400 - there's just nothing about it that makes it suddenly a better fit for Celestron now.)
If, for some reason, Synta wanted some of Meade's IP, the smart way to go about getting it would simply be to wait for Meade to have further troubles, and for the board of directors to further liquidate the company, picking up the IP for cheap. (Who else is going to buy it, realistically?)
Honestly, though, this is all wind and sails. My hunch would be that Synta is hunkered down looking at Meade and thinking "Thank god that isn't us," and not thinking about a whole lot else except their own business in these trying times.
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Kolenka
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 1010
Loc: Seattle Area, WA, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Beyond that, Synta already has the manufacturing capabilities that Meade does, and minus scopes like the LX400 on the MaxMount, covers the same lines Meade does. Synta doesn't need to buy Meade at this point, and I'd think they would pass in an attempt to not accumulate more debt.
They (Synta / Celestron) obviously have no interest in the part of the market addressed by the LX400 on a MaxMount. They stopped development of their large capacity mount, and they allowed the Celestron 20 design to more or less walk out the door with the former owners of Celestron. So it doesn't seem too likely that under the current, more trying times, they'd suddenly decide that they had to have the LX400/MaxMount. (Nothing against the MaxMount / LX400 - there's just nothing about it that makes it suddenly a better fit for Celestron now.)
Not saying they did, just that it would really be the only thing popping out in my mind that Meade had that Synta didn't already have some alternative or answer for.
Really just seems to me that the only things Synta might want (and could grab in liquidation, as you say) would be the ACF and "LNT" patents. I do remember someone commenting that the LNT patent was a thorn in Celestron/Synta's side at one point, so it might be something they want. The ACF patent may be interesting to them if manufacturing the modified corrector doesn't appreciably change their costs to make scopes.
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Orion XX12 / Orion 80ED OTA / AT66ED
Nagler 7T6, 9T6, 13T6, 17T4, 26T5
Canon XS, TIS DMK 31AF03, AstroTrac TT320X
Northwest Astro Photoblog
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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Quote:
Not saying they did, just that it would really be the only thing popping out in my mind that Meade had that Synta didn't already have some alternative or answer for.
Really just seems to me that the only things Synta might want (and could grab in liquidation, as you say) would be the ACF and "LNT" patents. I do remember someone commenting that the LNT patent was a thorn in Celestron/Synta's side at one point, so it might be something they want. The ACF patent may be interesting to them if manufacturing the modified corrector doesn't appreciably change their costs to make scopes.
I agree with you entirely. Great point about "LNT".
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rmollise
Postmaster
Reged: 07/06/07
Posts: 5298
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Quote:
Stock down to 18 cents (or thereabouts).
Big sale announced for "MySky Plus" at $149 (OPT).
MySky was supposed to be the company's salvation... a huge earner. No such luck. Now, they just want to sell 'em cheap to generate cash flow.
Wal-Mart used to be a really big client, especially for Xmas merchandising. Nobody seems to know if Wal-Mart is even dealing with Meade for this season.
By springtime, they'll be pushing up the tulips at this rate.
Good question. I haven't seen any in Wally World yet, but round here they don't usually stock up on the HELLISH little scopes till after Halloween (which seems odd )
As for the MySky? When it works, it works and is right nice. RIGHT nice. Unfortunately, three problems have plagued it:
GPS. Meade could not get the GPS to work reliably _on some units_. Solution? The MySky "plus" disables GPS. Not a big deal if you ask me; it's actually easier to enter site data manually. But it seems odd that taking something away makes it a "plus." Maybe they mean a plus for your mental health.
Accuracy. I've seen a couple that are spot on. And a couple that are consistently off 5 degrees or more, no matter what you do. Even standin' on your head don't help.
Build quality. This is the main bugaboo, and the main reason I bought a SkyScout to use with my students. Push a button too hard, bye-bye button. Set it down too hard, and it goes to pieces. Literally.
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Uncle Rod
Rod's New Book:
Choosing and Using a New CAT
Available now!
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rmollise
Postmaster
Reged: 07/06/07
Posts: 5298
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Quote:
They (Synta / Celestron) obviously have no interest in the part of the market addressed by the LX400 on a MaxMount.
And that might be pretty smart. I have talked at length to a FORMER MaxMount owner and apparently this big beast, despite its impressive looks is not quite...exactly...totally...well RELIABLE and WORKABLE yet.
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Uncle Rod
Rod's New Book:
Choosing and Using a New CAT
Available now!
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Bob Griffiths
Getting Grouchy
Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 7272
Loc: Frederick Maryland
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Celestron/Synta may want to grab the patient for LNT but only to have it .under their name....they sure do not need it ..
Unk Rod.... less is in fact, better sometimes....Ya gota pay attention to some Beer commercials....
Bud Light is less filling..!!!!!
Bob G.
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CPC1100
Nexstar 8i + GPS & Rays Brackets
Denk S1 power switch
Orion 100 mm Refractor
Meade LXD 55 ...AR-5 127 mm Refractor
Exploradome Observatory S.I.E. (Smiling Irish Eyes)
Gerbring Heated Motorcycle clothing in the winter
39*21'03" N
77*28'12" W
The sky over my head....
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bicparker
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/07/05
Posts: 1759
Loc: Plano, TX
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Quote:
I recall that Meade makes more profit from their cheaper telescopes than from their LX class scopes. The LX class scopes were manufactured for corporate pride. They do not make much money on their flagship scopes.
Actually, Matthew, it is the other way around. Their advanced scopes (which included the LX, LXD, and ETX scopes) are their highest margin items. Prior to a year and a half ago when all of these changes started, their advanced scopes represented 2% of their volume and 10% of their profit. Meade used the margins on their more expensive scopes to subsidize the mass market scopes with the idea that once they surpassed certain volume targets, they could make some real money .
Unfortunately, that never really panned out.
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Bic Parker
17.5" f/5 dob
10" f/10 SCT
5" f/8 refractor
80mm f/6 refractor
66mm f/6 refractor
Plus a few others out of the rotation
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Kolenka
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 1010
Loc: Seattle Area, WA, USA
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Quote:
Celestron/Synta may want to grab the patient for LNT but only to have it .under their name....they sure do not need it ..
They may not need it, but they have run into problems when they wanted to add competing functionality. If I recall, Meade sued and won. They may want it just so they can make some of that R&D money back.
Again, I wouldn't put it past Synta to go after the ACF patent either, depending on the sort of costs involved and how much more expensive it will make the scopes to produce. If the per-unit costs aren't impacted by producing ACF designs, I'd grab the patent if I were them. The patent still has about 14 years of life left in it in the US. That is 14 years that Synta can use it to get an edge on any future competitors in the mass-produced SCT market.
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Orion XX12 / Orion 80ED OTA / AT66ED
Nagler 7T6, 9T6, 13T6, 17T4, 26T5
Canon XS, TIS DMK 31AF03, AstroTrac TT320X
Northwest Astro Photoblog
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nebulous
member
Reged: 10/27/06
Posts: 23
Loc: USA
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The US Patent Office has not issued a patent to Meade/Murdock for the ACF as of today, October 31, 2008. While an application was filed in 2007, there is no guarantee a patent will be issued.
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Jeff Lee
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/17/06
Posts: 558
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Interesting topic. I think the Meade brand still has customer value as do the ETX, LXD, and LX products. I can't see someone (like the firms who make the ETX & LXD products) won't see Meade as a chance to enter this market cheaply. I think Meade, like Celestron, will become a target for take over mostly likely from the east.
I listened to the recorded call and have bought and sold a few businesses, I think that they are talking. The trouble is Meade has no bargining power now with a suitor. I just think there is too much value for someone not to go afte a fire sale. This is a very interesting case to watch.
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Jeff Lee
C90,C5,C8, 10 x 50's
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Bill Barlow
sage
Reged: 12/03/07
Posts: 425
Loc: Overland Park KS
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Is there any chance that we might see a drastic price reduction of Meade SCT OTA's or OTA/mount combos in the near future? That might be a way to get people currently on the fence to fork out some cash for an ACF-equipped OTA.
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A Meade 10" ACF OTA on a UA UniStar Deluxe Super 8 altaz mount on a Meade field tripod.
A SV 90TBV fluorite triplet refractor on a UA UniStar Light mount on a UA light surveyor tripod.
Garrett Optical 10x50, 12x60 and 30x100 binoculars.
Several TV Plossl and Nagler eyepieces.
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rmollise
Postmaster
Reged: 07/06/07
Posts: 5298
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Quote:
Is there any chance that we might see a drastic price reduction of Meade SCT OTA's or OTA/mount combos in the near future? That might be a way to get people currently on the fence to fork out some cash for an ACF-equipped OTA.
No. Meade has just RAISED prices. One of their problems has been that prices for their amateur level scopes have been WAY too low--for years.
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Uncle Rod
Rod's New Book:
Choosing and Using a New CAT
Available now!
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GJJim
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/09/06
Posts: 907
Loc: Western CO
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Quote:
Is there any chance that we might see a drastic price reduction of Meade SCT OTA's or OTA/mount combos in the near future? That might be a way to get people currently on the fence to fork out some cash for an ACF-equipped OTA.
You might see drastic price reductions from many companies in the coming months. As a Meade shareholder I'm shocked at how poorly this company is being managed and I think the situation has deteriorated to the point where only an acquisition can save this company from bankruptcy and liquidation.
Edited by Joad (11/03/08 03:07 PM)
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Rick Woods
Postmaster
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 6267
Loc: Inner Solar System
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$0.19 just now.
Jeez, this is like sitting in the hospital with a terminal patient, waiting for the end!
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- Rick
14" LX200GPS
Dyslexics Untie!
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sladelindquist
newbie
Reged: 10/04/08
Posts: 1
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Now all we need is for someone to yell "Clear" and throw some paddles on the patient chest.
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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It's interesting how sentiment changes over a year. I caught quite a bit of flack last year for cancelling my 16" RCX400 order, and for voicing concern about Meade's long-term viability as a company.
Anyone out there still think I should've waited for the RCX400 to come back into production?
Meade caught a bit of a break though - their deadline for delisting from the Nasdaq has been extended to May 11, 2009, courtesy of a failing bank near you!
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Kolenka
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 1010
Loc: Seattle Area, WA, USA
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Well, usually when you start seeing the reports saying "We have 12 months of liquidity left" and then later reports of "We are still trying to get out of the red"... I'd say your sentiment changes quick. Meade's stock has dropped to less than 1/6th its value 6 months ago on top of that.
Meade has gone from 'it may be able to turn it around as long as we don't abandon them' to 'put a fork in it'. They have fewer and fewer options as time goes on, and I believe people's sentiment is changing based on that reality.
I still don't regret my LX200 purchase just 3 months ago though. Solid optics.
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Orion XX12 / Orion 80ED OTA / AT66ED
Nagler 7T6, 9T6, 13T6, 17T4, 26T5
Canon XS, TIS DMK 31AF03, AstroTrac TT320X
Northwest Astro Photoblog
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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Quote:
I'd say your sentiment changes quick. Meade's stock has dropped to less than 1/6th its value 6 months ago on top of that.
Meade's stock has been dead - and I mean just that - dead - for many years. After their absurd participation in the 2000 .com / telecom bubble burst, it was pretty much a given that no large institutional investor was going to touch thts stock with a 100' pole.
I feel bad for individuals who bought the stock, possibly because they loved the products they got from Meade.
Quote:
Meade has gone from 'it may be able to turn it around as long as we don't abandon them' to 'put a fork in it'. They have fewer and fewer options as time goes on, and I believe people's sentiment is changing based on that reality.
I'd assert that it was pretty obvious long before now that they were in serious trouble. It's difficult, emotionally, to disassociate the products of Meade (which are wonderful) with the performance of Meade, the company. (Which frankly stinks!)
Quote:
I still don't regret my LX200 purchase just 3 months ago though. Solid optics.
Awesome! As I said, their products are by and large terrific. I still own 3 Meade scopes - they were great purchases, performed great, and were a great value. It is very sad to see an innovative company failing.
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Pess
(Title)
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 1927
Loc: Toledo, Ohio
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Quote:
Well, except any takeover wouldn't be by Celestron. Celestron is just a brand now, not a company. Synta (owner of the Celestron name) would be the one eyeing Meade, but really, the only things Meade has that Synta might want are patents to things like the ACF corrector design.
The 'Meade' name is worth far more than any patent.
Meade makes some great scopes, no doubt about it. But buying the brand and slapping it on a series of scopes is where the value lies.
Pesse (If a Scope by 'Pesse' and a Meade branded scope were sitting side by side in the store. Which would you buy? 'nuff said) Mist
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Pess
(Title)
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 1927
Loc: Toledo, Ohio
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Quote:
It's interesting how sentiment changes over a year. I caught quite a bit of flack last year for cancelling my 16" RCX400 order, and for voicing concern about Meade's long-term viability as a company.
Anyone out there still think I should've waited for the RCX400 to come back into production?
Meade caught a bit of a break though - their deadline for delisting from the Nasdaq has been extended to May 11, 2009, courtesy of a failing bank near you!
I said many times that the RCX was a dead line--and got scars from Meade fan-boys to prove it.
Even though the line is dead, after owning one I got to say it is one heck of a scope.
Pesse (Maybe a buyer of the Meade brand will resurrect the model series.) Mist
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Rick Woods
Postmaster
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 6267
Loc: Inner Solar System
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$0.17
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- Rick
14" LX200GPS
Dyslexics Untie!
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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Someone sold $1200 or so of the stock, so it has dropped 10% to $0.15.
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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Someone sold $1200 or so of the stock, so it has dropped 10% to $0.15.
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Rick Woods
Postmaster
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 6267
Loc: Inner Solar System
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$0.13 just now! 
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- Rick
14" LX200GPS
Dyslexics Untie!
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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Oh wow.
Volume is well above average today - although that doesn't mean much, since we're talking about less than $5000 worth of stock.
Still, pretty amazing that a < $5000 transaction moves the stock 25%!
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bicparker
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/07/05
Posts: 1759
Loc: Plano, TX
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The float for Meade is small, so it will be volatile in its price. Kind of makes the price, market cap, and price movement meaningless in this case.
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Bic Parker
17.5" f/5 dob
10" f/10 SCT
5" f/8 refractor
80mm f/6 refractor
66mm f/6 refractor
Plus a few others out of the rotation
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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Although that is certainly true, it's still trending down quite sharply - so the price movement doesn't seem entirely meaningless. It seems to have been in freefall since breaking $1. I wonder if it will break $0.10?
Regardless, given Meade's chart, it's difficult to see how the shares that were sold today could represent anything other than a pretty terrible loss for whoever sold them, would you not agree?
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droid
rocketman
Reged: 08/29/04
Posts: 4257
Loc: ohio
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Any chance Meade might get in on the bail out???
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12 inch Truss Reflector "John"
102mm Celestron C102HD " Carl "
Tasco 7TE5 60mm Classic
Tasco 9TE5 60mm Classic
Celestron Ultima 2000 SCT "Wilma"
Celestron Comet catcher(orange tube)
1960 Edscorp Space Conquerer 6inch f/8
10x50 Bushnell Binoculars.
60mm Telescope Club
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Odin
sage
Reged: 03/21/07
Posts: 208
Loc: Ont, Cdn 46N 84W
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Please... isn't it bad enough American Taxpayers are bailing out theRE Banks...... Although I feel the Scope manufactures deserve more.
Edited by Odin (11/10/08 07:40 PM)
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GJJim
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/09/06
Posts: 907
Loc: Western CO
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Quote:
Any chance Meade might get in on the bail out???
Lack of operating cash is just a symptom -- the disease is poor management. Giving them more cash is just throwing good money after bad.
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bicparker
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/07/05
Posts: 1759
Loc: Plano, TX
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Quote:
Although that is certainly true, it's still trending down quite sharply - so the price movement doesn't seem entirely meaningless. It seems to have been in freefall since breaking $1. I wonder if it will break $0.10?
Regardless, given Meade's chart, it's difficult to see how the shares that were sold today could represent anything other than a pretty terrible loss for whoever sold them, would you not agree?
It is meaningless in terms of what a stock price communicates. Meade's stock price doesn't really reflect its market value. At a market price of 13 cents, its market cap is ~$3 million, but if it were to be sold to a buyer or buyers now, I suspect the price would far different than the market cap or what could be derived from the market cap (in other words, some predictable premium or discount to the market capitalization). It's book value is around $10-14 million now. So the stock price really has very little meaning at this point.
Sure, those who own the stock and probably bought it at a higher price have been hosed, but for someone like me (who doesn't own Meade), it really doesn't tell me anything about the company's relative fair market value. What the small float and low price does say is that Meade is owned and controlled by a small group of investors and one would be playing in someone else's game buying the stock. It's relevance as a publicly owned investment is practically nil. It's a penny stock and was one long before the market crashed.
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Bic Parker
17.5" f/5 dob
10" f/10 SCT
5" f/8 refractor
80mm f/6 refractor
66mm f/6 refractor
Plus a few others out of the rotation
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Joe Lalumia
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/24/07
Posts: 4132
Loc: Rockwall, Texas, USA
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I can probably get you a better "deal" at the dice table in Vegas!
Someone WILL eventually buy Meade --- who that will be no one knows. The brand will still be around and even if it goes away I foresee a good business developing to repair these scopes --- Dr. Clay already does this-- other electronic shops, and optic shops will jump in if Meade disappears...... for repair.
Like these guys--
http://www.astronomy-shoppe.com/repairs.htm HECK! my "working perfectly" Lx90 might just go UP in value if actual production ever stopped!
and you can always buy a nice GEM and put the OTA on it!
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LX90 8" LNT, SV Nighthawk & TelePOD, ETX 90, Orion XT10i, SV 80/9d, 20x80 binoculars www.texasastro.org
"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." - Albert Einstein
Edited by Joe Lalumia (11/11/08 11:50 AM)
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Kolenka
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 1010
Loc: Seattle Area, WA, USA
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Quote:
and you can always buy a nice GEM and put the OTA on it!
That's my plan B if the mount fails on mine.
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Orion XX12 / Orion 80ED OTA / AT66ED
Nagler 7T6, 9T6, 13T6, 17T4, 26T5
Canon XS, TIS DMK 31AF03, AstroTrac TT320X
Northwest Astro Photoblog
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bicparker
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/07/05
Posts: 1759
Loc: Plano, TX
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That is exactly what I did about 7 or 8 years ago. My forks have been collecting dust in my astronomy closet.
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Bic Parker
17.5" f/5 dob
10" f/10 SCT
5" f/8 refractor
80mm f/6 refractor
66mm f/6 refractor
Plus a few others out of the rotation
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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Up 0.03 today - $0.16.
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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I spoke too soon - $0.12 so far today.
Honestly, my real opinion of the most probable outcome for Meade is that the small group of investors who currently own most of the company will get it delisted, and sell off pieces as they can, the end result being that most of what we recognize as "Meade" will be sold as assets and IP to other companies more or less in a fire sale.
What will remain of Meade will be this husk of a company that hoses it's suppliers and remaining stock holders - they can sue it all they want, it won't have any real money or assets, just liabilities.
In terms of the "Meade brand", whoever buys it will use that or some of the IP for something - but the end result is likely not anything remotely like the big blue scope company we know today.
Note - it's possible I'm completely wrong and that Meade's restructuring will work. However, they haven't managed to turn it around yet, and the present economic distress we are in doesn't bode well for them. (This assumes that the folks who control their board even care whether or not they succeed - if the goal is to liquidate and keep the cash for themselves, then who cares about telescopes anyway?)
But hey, maybe I'm wrong and they turn it around. Stranger things have happened.
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Rick Woods
Postmaster
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 6267
Loc: Inner Solar System
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Up to $0.13 just now.
By golly, they're turning it around!
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- Rick
14" LX200GPS
Dyslexics Untie!
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bicparker
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/07/05
Posts: 1759
Loc: Plano, TX
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Quote:
I spoke too soon - $0.12 so far today.
Honestly, my real opinion of the most probable outcome for Meade is that the small group of investors who currently own most of the company will get it delisted, and sell off pieces as they can, the end result being that most of what we recognize as "Meade" will be sold as assets and IP to other companies more or less in a fire sale.
What will remain of Meade will be this husk of a company that hoses it's suppliers and remaining stock holders - they can sue it all they want, it won't have any real money or assets, just liabilities.
In terms of the "Meade brand", whoever buys it will use that or some of the IP for something - but the end result is likely not anything remotely like the big blue scope company we know today.
Note - it's possible I'm completely wrong and that Meade's restructuring will work. However, they haven't managed to turn it around yet, and the present economic distress we are in doesn't bode well for them. (This assumes that the folks who control their board even care whether or not they succeed - if the goal is to liquidate and keep the cash for themselves, then who cares about telescopes anyway?)
But hey, maybe I'm wrong and they turn it around. Stranger things have happened.
This has been the case all along, which is what I have been saying.. or at least since Hummingbird won the proxy fight after their market cap fell below their book value. This was a textbook case of a corporate raid on an undervalued small cap company that wasn't doing well. And.. it was done by one of the co-authors of the textbook, Mr. Paul Sonkin. His book is all about this very scenario.
It has less to do with the business Meade is in and all about how to convert assets for a profit.
So.. to add something that is perhaps more relevant to this particular forum area....
This is not meant as a slam on Meade's products. They make some fine telescopes for their price ranges. But, realistically, if you are about to spend more than $1,000-2,000 on a product, especially one that may need specialized warranty support should the case arise, one should consider that warranties, product support, and parts are only as good as the company behind them.
A lot of experienced folks here on CN may not have a problem buying a big ticket item from Meade, because they understand how things can get fixed outside of what the manufacturer can provide. But would you recommend such a direction for a new person to astronomy? This is perhaps something all of us should consider since many of the people on CN will be the ones a newbie will go to for advice.
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Bic Parker
17.5" f/5 dob
10" f/10 SCT
5" f/8 refractor
80mm f/6 refractor
66mm f/6 refractor
Plus a few others out of the rotation
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rmollise
Postmaster
Reged: 07/06/07
Posts: 5298
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Quote:
A lot of experienced folks here on CN may not have a problem buying a big ticket item from Meade, because they understand how things can get fixed outside of what the manufacturer can provide. But would you recommend such a direction for a new person to astronomy? This is perhaps something all of us should consider since many of the people on CN will be the ones a newbie will go to for advice.
Amen and well said.
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Uncle Rod
Rod's New Book:
Choosing and Using a New CAT
Available now!
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Jaxdialation
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/01/07
Posts: 2652
Loc: Northeast, FL
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Lots of straight talk here.
I shake my head every time I see one of those "don't worry, be happy posts" in response to someone who is contemplating their first computerized scope purchase.
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John
18/4.3 StarStructure/ZOC on Order!
My Image Gallery
My Weather
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JT5
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 674
Loc: Ozarks of Missouri
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Hmmmmm? The world economy is in the toilet and stocks are the lowest in 70 years. People with money are not prone to discretionary spending. A telescope is not on the priority list for most people that would be buying them in better times. Go figure.
John
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My wife shares my love of the night skies and tolerates all of my other hobbies.
Televue Pronto w/Starbeam pointer and Televue tripod
Meade 2045D, ETX-125PE, 12" Lightbridge
Celestron: 7Amp PowerTank, 15X70mm binoculars
Meade, Swan and Televue Lenses (33, 26, 20, 15 & 9mm), Televue Barlow
Catsperch Observing Chair
Member: St. Louis Astronomical Society
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bicparker
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/07/05
Posts: 1759
Loc: Plano, TX
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These problems at Meade preceded the current situation by a long stretch. They would be about where they are now, in any case.
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Bic Parker
17.5" f/5 dob
10" f/10 SCT
5" f/8 refractor
80mm f/6 refractor
66mm f/6 refractor
Plus a few others out of the rotation
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Joe Bergeron
Vendor - Space Art
Reged: 11/10/03
Posts: 939
Loc: Upstate NY
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Quote:
Meade's troubles are a comment on our times.
Why buy a telescope when you can plant yourself in front of a gigantic 42 inch widescreen monitor and play World of Wastecraft all hours of the night? Oh, and lest I forget, mom and dad will buy the house a new, blazingly bright outdoor GE safety light to keep you "protected" while you're wasting your time. Why look at the sky? After all, it's just an unfathomable orange glaze.
People just don't value astronomy anymore. Why spend time with the natural world when you can live in a purely artificial, brightly lit one, where you get to smash things?
Well said. I hope my "Wrath of the Lich King" expansion box arrives soon.
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Six telescopes of a diverse nature.
Multiple chums glittering in the sky. New friends await.
My Web Site
English Lessons for Amateur Astronomers
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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Quote:
These problems at Meade preceded the current situation by a long stretch. They would be about where they are now, in any case.
Meade was pretty obviously in trouble last year, when the stock market was making all-time highs, and the economy hadn't really shown too many signs of going south. (They stopped production of the RCX400 line in August or September '07. The Dow hit its all time high in Oct '07.)
The present difficult times we are facing simply adds a headwind that they have to fight if they want to take off again. Likely a really strong headwind.
A victim of the .com bust, Meade's stock has has been sliding since 2001.
So if some of us sound pessimistic, or even seem to be bashing this company, keep in mind that the bad news at Meade has been happening for years. They have been trying to turn it around for a long time, and thus far, it hasn't worked out well for them.
Meade designs some great products. The products aren't really the problem. They just haven't managed to figure out a way to profitably make their products in quite some time.
It is difficult to sound fair when all there is to say about a subject is bad news. And yes, this is very sad.
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Jeff Lee
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/17/06
Posts: 558
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Funny thing, I remember when Celestron tried to "turn it around" and of course ended up being bought. Meades new products (ACF and the new ETX line) might capture a high share of the down/disappearing telescope market given they seem to be performers.
I don't know who makes the ETX/LXD equipment but I would be surprised if they just didn't have market value to someone. Yes this is a bad shake out and its going to take a while to even get the panic and fear out of the markets.
But I just can't see someone not keeping the brand alive.
I mean Celestron is really just a brand item now....and who knows what the status of their parent company is given the economic downturn in Asia.
When my LXD75 dies, I'll just find another Goto mount to put it on, but I hope Meade does make it just to keep the competition driving new ideas like the ACF.
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Jeff Lee
C90,C5,C8, 10 x 50's
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Starlighter
Post Laureate
Reged: 08/03/07
Posts: 4820
Loc: Sunny California
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How much to buy the entire company? I mean, if its stock is at $.12 a share..... 
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Celestron C4-R 102mm achromat
Celeston Nexstar 6SE SCT
Meade 80mm APO Triplet
Televue NP-101
Televue TV-85
Vixen A70Lf
Vixen A80Mf
William Optics 66mm Zenithstar Patriot
Celestron CG4 EQ mount
Orion Skyview Pro AZ mount
Televue Gibraltar 5
Vixen Portamount
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Starlighter
Post Laureate
Reged: 08/03/07
Posts: 4820
Loc: Sunny California
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FYI Back on March 15, 2000, its stock had risen to $53 a share.
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Celestron C4-R 102mm achromat
Celeston Nexstar 6SE SCT
Meade 80mm APO Triplet
Televue NP-101
Televue TV-85
Vixen A70Lf
Vixen A80Mf
William Optics 66mm Zenithstar Patriot
Celestron CG4 EQ mount
Orion Skyview Pro AZ mount
Televue Gibraltar 5
Vixen Portamount
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bicparker
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/07/05
Posts: 1759
Loc: Plano, TX
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Quote:
How much to buy the entire company? I mean, if its stock is at $.12 a share.....
The market capitalization (market cap) is around $3-3.5 million at the current stock price, but that really doesn't reflect what it would sell for because:
1) The stock has a small float, so the price is very volatile against a small volume of trading;
2) The book value is considerably more, around $14 million or so according to their last quarter's report (I am doing this from memory, so forgive me if I am off a bit in my figures).
3) The likely intent of any sale will be for individual assets (unless a buyer ponies up enough money for the whole shebang) with the idea that more money can be obtained parceling out the bits of the company.
So don't think that the company can be bought for $0.12-0.14 a share (i.e., ~$3 million). It would likely go for at least as much as its current book, plus a premium, depending upon how good the sales broker is (and it will go through brokerage... they already have one hired).
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Bic Parker
17.5" f/5 dob
10" f/10 SCT
5" f/8 refractor
80mm f/6 refractor
66mm f/6 refractor
Plus a few others out of the rotation
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Starlighter
Post Laureate
Reged: 08/03/07
Posts: 4820
Loc: Sunny California
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And the buyer would have to assume the debt. Then one has to factor in the cost of operating the company compared to the profit margin. I tend to believe they're operating at a loss. Why they took on a new ETX line is beyond me.
Selling off assets piecemeal would be a sad state of affairs. I suppose someone could buy up all their parts and then do a nice business providing repair.
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Celestron C4-R 102mm achromat
Celeston Nexstar 6SE SCT
Meade 80mm APO Triplet
Televue NP-101
Televue TV-85
Vixen A70Lf
Vixen A80Mf
William Optics 66mm Zenithstar Patriot
Celestron CG4 EQ mount
Orion Skyview Pro AZ mount
Televue Gibraltar 5
Vixen Portamount
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imjeffp
Aluminum Falcon
Reged: 09/30/03
Posts: 4977
Loc: Cedar Park, Texas
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My hope is that the buyer would return to producing mid- to high-end scopes in limited but reasonable quantities.
If I were Meade's CEO, I'd cut the number of models down to the ETX & LX series, concede the lower end to Orion/Celestron, bring back the LX400 as a "B" version, sponsor a yearly astronomy show & conference, and market my company as innovators in observing (backed up by the performance of the ACF optics). I'd push for a Meade-branded GEM to compete with the CGE to offer an option to fork mounts (maybe an updated LXD650/750 with Autostar II). Then I'd put all the money I could into QC and customer service to try and repair the brand image.
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blb
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/25/05
Posts: 501
Loc: Piedmont NC
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Here here!
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C-11, C-6, XT10i Dob, ETX125PE, TV102, & AT66
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GJJim
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/09/06
Posts: 907
Loc: Western CO
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Quote:
My hope is that the buyer would return to producing mid- to high-end scopes in limited but reasonable quantities.
High-tech products require an extensive and competent service organization. If Meade reduced their product lines and only sold expensive, high-end equipment loaded with motors and electronics, their expenses for customer service would increase dramatically. They could lose even more money. A well-grounded CEO with no loyalty to the hobby might conclude that they need to ditch the high-end, low volume products and concentrate on the cheaper scopes that actually turn a profit!
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GJJim
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/09/06
Posts: 907
Loc: Western CO
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Quote:
FYI Back on March 15, 2000, its stock had risen to $53 a share.
Yes, that was back in the day when the dotcom wonder, Terra Beam, was going to use modified ETXs to send web traffic via IR laser links between large buildings. As if! Terra Beam burned through hundreds of millions of dollars from investors ($400M from Lucent alone) and now there is zilch to show for it.
Meade had plenty of gravy on its plate in those halcyon days. Some of it was used wisely for R&D, but as we all know a lot of it was sopped up by upper management and lawyers for their ill-fated attempts at patent warfare. It's interesting to speculate what Meade could have accomplished if they were never distracted by the dotcom sirens and we had a healthy competition with Celestron that involved optical performance instead of goto patents.
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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Quote:
High-tech products require an extensive and competent service organization. If Meade reduced their product lines and only sold expensive, high-end equipment loaded with motors and electronics, their expenses for customer service would increase dramatically. They could lose even more money. A well-grounded CEO with no loyalty to the hobby might conclude that they need to ditch the high-end, low volume products and concentrate on the cheaper scopes that actually turn a profit!
I don't believe this is the case at all.
The low end scopes are very low margin items. If you sell them in high quantities, it can produce a large VOLUME of dollars, but a relatively low profit. How would the low end products be more profitable?
1. The exact same stuff comes out of Asia from other manufacturers. You can charge more than them why exactly? Oh wait - you can't.
2. They are bought by less sophisticated users - more support. (I can't get this dang thing to work, I'll just take it back to walmart - oh, it ends up back at Meade then...)
High end scopes have a much, much larger margin built into them. For one thing, Meade can argue that their ACF product gives them advantages over their competition, and in principle could charge a bit more for it. More expensive items tend to absorb a bit higher profit margin costs - people who buy these products understand they are buying features, not just price. (At the low end, it's just about price.) The competition for Meade's high-end products may be stiff, but I don't think it's cut-throat. At the low end, the competition is, I believe, pretty brutal. (It just has to be, there are just so many alternatives.) If you want an SCT, you are very probably going to buy either Meade or Celestron. If you want to buy a small, entry level refractor or reflector, there are many, many more choices.
This is why having both low end, low profit, high volume products combined with low volume, high end, high profit products makes so much business sense. The low volume stuff generates lots of dollars, keeps your factory busy, and lets you make the high end stuff very efficiently for cheap, making you a lot of profit.
I believe the problem Meade has is that they are geared for higher volume manufacturing than the actual sales they have. There are some fixed costs in operating a manufacturing business, and if your sales aren't enough to cover those costs, it doesn't really matter how efficient your factory is, it's going to drag you down. Meade hasn't seemed to be able to get their cost structure under control and to line up with their actual sales.
The trouble with low end, high volume stuff is that if you begin to lose money on it, you lose money, really, really, really fast. This is what happened to Meade, I believe. (Well, that, and a couple of key customers who they relied on to market their scopes either went out of business, or dumped them.) Getting yourself out of this type of situation is really difficult.
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GJJim
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/09/06
Posts: 907
Loc: Western CO
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Several companies operate profitably selling only high-end telescopes at low volumes. They can do this because unlike Meade, they sell optical and mechanical quality instead of a laundry list of features.
With regard to the low end products Meade sells, my speculation about profits was a comparison in the aggregate. Selling a high-volume of 900X!, department-store scopes might be more profitable for Meade than selling a few hundred ACF scopes, especially given the Q/C and warranty issues they experienced. Remember those cheap scopes are 100% made in China, and the only involvement Meade likely has is signing up retailers.
Bottom line is they need to show profits in the next quarter from _somewhere_.
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bicparker
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/07/05
Posts: 1759
Loc: Plano, TX
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It is important to understand their profit history and why low end scopes haven't worked for them. This is pretty easily gleaned from their segment reporting on their 10Q's and 10K's. Fortunately, their reportable segments included a clear breakdown between their higher end scopes and the low-cost tubes.
Historically from at least 2000 to early 2007, low end scopes represented around 98% of their sales volume (that is quantity, not dollars). That is not a typo... 98%... in other words, for every 1,000 scopes they sold, 980 were el-cheapo's and the other 20 were something a person on this forum might buy.
High end scopes were the other 2%. That 2% represented 10+% of their gross profit. In some quarters, high end scopes were the only profitable business segment. Per their numbers, warranty and return costs were very minimal for this segment (low end scopes warranty expenses have been very high).
When you added SG&A, they showed nasty losses, much of this coming from expenses necessary to maintain a volume business created from the low cost scopes. Scott is right in that their structure was geared for the high volume low cost telescope distribution and it is tough to get out of that mode very quickly or easily with warranty costs (this has been a huge bone with them), contract costs, facility costs (they have an empty building in Irvine that is costing them cash flow), and staffing re-org costs. They are also sitting on around $20 million in inventory, which, from what I could tell on my inventory turn estimates, has some components that are getting stale.
Bottom line - cheaper scopes never really turned a profit for them. In fact, they were a big part of Meade's problems. Their high end scopes, however, were the cash cows that supported their low end "habit", for a while at least.
If you read their latest earnings call, their management was quite clear that they would be supported over the next quarter or two from what they could borrow and sales. Sales alone were not expected to be adequate enough to pay the bills (and this was after most of their Christmas season orders would already be booked). In other words, they are not expecting profits for another 2-3 quarters.
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Bic Parker
17.5" f/5 dob
10" f/10 SCT
5" f/8 refractor
80mm f/6 refractor
66mm f/6 refractor
Plus a few others out of the rotation
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Starlighter
Post Laureate
Reged: 08/03/07
Posts: 4820
Loc: Sunny California
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Maybe the answer for Meade is to drop all the cheapo stuff and concentrate on high quality refractors, SCTs and Maks. Perhaps enter into a partnership with another company that specializes in high quality GEM mounts such as Losmandy.
If their new ETX-LS turns out to be a lemon, I think it just might put them out of business. But if it works as advertised, it could be a needed shot in the arm to keep them going. But knowing how buggy other electronic products are from that company such as My Sky, I have serious doubts they can pull it off.
However I wish them the best. If the ETX-LS does indeed turn out to be a winner, I just might buy one, but I intend to wait until it's been out for a while. My days of buying brand new products are over. I've been burned far too many times.
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Celestron C4-R 102mm achromat
Celeston Nexstar 6SE SCT
Meade 80mm APO Triplet
Televue NP-101
Televue TV-85
Vixen A70Lf
Vixen A80Mf
William Optics 66mm Zenithstar Patriot
Celestron CG4 EQ mount
Orion Skyview Pro AZ mount
Televue Gibraltar 5
Vixen Portamount
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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Quote:
Maybe the answer for Meade is to drop all the cheapo stuff and concentrate on high quality refractors, SCTs and Maks. Perhaps enter into a partnership with another company that specializes in high quality GEM mounts such as Losmandy.
While I agree with you that this would be an ideal solution, it's difficult for Meade to do this for a number of reasons.
They have the overhead they've built into their business model, and shedding that overhead is not free. It's not even especially easy to do. It's sort of like saying "my house is too big - I'll sell it." Well, maybe you will sell it quickly, maybe you won't. Right now, in many markets, you'd be stuck with your house, like it or not. Meade's kind of in that same situation.
As nice as it would be to see Meade as only a niche, high-end scope producer, nobody wants a public company that produces low volume / high profit margin products. Although that is a GREAT business model, it's a horrible model for a public company. If you are an investor, you want to see GROWTH. More dollars coming in, more profit coming in. Meade has attempted to do this for years, and their failure here has messed them up very seriously. (There are other models for public companies, but Meade doesn't fit them, either.) Indeed, being a public company right now is costing Meade quite a bit of money, and doing them absolutely no good whatsoever.
By the way, as incredible as it is, I think Meade is still focused on the idea of growth. The ETX-LS seems to be geared at someone who really doesn't know the sky even a little bit. You turn it on, and in a few moments it shows you wondrous things - and explains them to you verbally as you gaze through the eyepiece. I would think part of the idea behind this is to help grow the market by increasing the ease of use and setup. Unfortunately, there are many things that limit the opportunity for growth in this business.
I don't mean to sound negative about the ETX-LS - I think it's a cool idea! If people were generally more excited about space and astronomy, it might well be a gigantic monster hit that completely changed the fortunes of Meade. (Oh yeah, and if the economy were better...)
Oh, $0.11 today. 
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bicparker
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/07/05
Posts: 1759
Loc: Plano, TX
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Cool ideas are great, but you need buyers. With most of the the buyers in the USA living under light polluted skies, that just isn't likely.
Meade isn't going to be profitable anytime soon. They have even indicated this. There are no "killer apps" waiting in the wings for them and Christmas season is going to be ugly this year. They have a huge stale inventory of mostly cheap scopes. Their controlling ownership is focused on cashing out their assets.
Meade is not going to be a public company much longer. They didn't even talk about the delisting notice during their last earnings call, which with most companies, would be one of the biggest single pieces of news. Their owners are going to parcel it out. Long term visions for Meade are only interesting now until after the other shoe drops. Their finances are in sustain mode and they are positioned for being sold.
Right now, I would be more interested in finding out where I can get spare parts for my telescope, if I need them.
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Bic Parker
17.5" f/5 dob
10" f/10 SCT
5" f/8 refractor
80mm f/6 refractor
66mm f/6 refractor
Plus a few others out of the rotation
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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Quote:
Cool ideas are great, but you need buyers. With most of the the buyers in the USA living under light polluted skies, that just isn't likely.
That's how I see it too. I wish the educational market were more of an opportunity - astronomy is barely taught in most schools, at least in Texas and Oklahoma. That scope would be very well suited for educators.
Quote:
Meade is not going to be a public company much longer. They didn't even talk about the delisting notice during their last earnings call, which with most companies, would be one of the biggest single pieces of news. Their owners are going to parcel it out. Long term visions for Meade are only interesting now until after the other shoe drops. Their finances are in sustain mode and they are positioned for being sold.
Yeah, I agree bic - usually when a stock price is like this, if the management has any interest in staying listed, they begin to float the idea of a reverse split. (In this case, for every 10 shares you own, you'd get 1 share of "new" meade stock.) They aren't even mentioning this, which says they don't care about being delisted.
I would assume that their goal is to sell the Meade telescope business to someone, and to leave it in a state where it could be sold to somebody and arguably turn a profit at some point. Otherwise why build a factory?
The factory has been one of my biggest questions in all of this - I'd assert, with some first-hand experience, that owning a factory in Mexico tends to make your business more difficult to sell. Or perhaps this is all just window-dressing until they are delisted, and they can cut-n-gut the remainder of Meade without so much public scrutiny?
If you have any thoughts on this bic, I'm interested in hearing them - Meade is proving to be a lot scrappier than the company I watched go through a similar process years ago. (The outfit I worked for ran out of neat ideas long before they got to this point!)
Any chance, do you think, that the upper management and the board fundamentally disagree on the direction of the company, and that they are duking it out?
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Jaxdialation
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/01/07
Posts: 2652
Loc: Northeast, FL
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Entirely possible they are duking it out. If anyone had a clear, compelling path to survival I'd be surprised. That leaves arguing to fill the void.
Quote:
Any chance, do you think, that the upper management and the board fundamentally disagree on the direction of the company, and that they are duking it out?
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John
18/4.3 StarStructure/ZOC on Order!
My Image Gallery
My Weather
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bicparker
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/07/05
Posts: 1759
Loc: Plano, TX
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I think that argument was settled over a year and a half ago with the proxy fight that Hummingbird, et al waged. They control the company now, make no mistake about it (and over 30% of the voting stock directly).
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Bic Parker
17.5" f/5 dob
10" f/10 SCT
5" f/8 refractor
80mm f/6 refractor
66mm f/6 refractor
Plus a few others out of the rotation
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GJJim
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/09/06
Posts: 907
Loc: Western CO
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Quote:
It is important to understand their profit history and why low end scopes haven't worked for them. This is pretty easily gleaned from their segment reporting on their 10Q's and 10K's.
[snip]
In other words, they are not expecting profits for another 2-3 quarters.
The reports show they've already borrowed heavily to finance the move to Mexico. In today's environment I don't see banks lining up to extend new loans or even roll over the existing ones. Sell more equity? LOL
Sad to say, but Meade management doesn't have 2-3 quarters to get the company profitable. If this holiday season doesn't pan out for them, I suspect it's lights out time south of the border.
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bicparker
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/07/05
Posts: 1759
Loc: Plano, TX
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They did some interim financing to move to Mexico, but they have paid off their long term obligations and outstanding LOC's. They still have funding available under a currently open LOC, which they will likely draw upon in the next few months according to their latest earnings call. This is certainly more likely since they have been using short term trade and other payables as sources of cash as well as increases in their accounts receivable.
I don't think selling more equity has ever been considered since the public offering market has been relatively dry for at least the past two years.
You are likely right that they don't have 2-3 quarters to get profitable. But I don't really think that is the objective of the current ownership, either. I think it is important to consider that Meade's current ownership does not have the amateur astronomer included in their plans and that we are fairly irrelevant right now except for the marketing of assets to other buyers.
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Bic Parker
17.5" f/5 dob
10" f/10 SCT
5" f/8 refractor
80mm f/6 refractor
66mm f/6 refractor
Plus a few others out of the rotation
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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Quote:
You are likely right that they don't have 2-3 quarters to get profitable. But I don't really think that is the objective of the current ownership, either. I think it is important to consider that Meade's current ownership does not have the amateur astronomer included in their plans and that we are fairly irrelevant right now except for the marketing of assets to other buyers.
I wonder if this will work out for them? It is a tough market out there right now, and I think they may be underestimating the saleability of a Mexican telescope manufacturing plant...
Or does none of that matter, and they are just re-arranging the deck chairs until they are delisted, and then they liquidate everything, up to, and including the light bulbs in the fixtures?
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Jaxdialation
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/01/07
Posts: 2652
Loc: Northeast, FL
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Is it time to line up for a government bailout?
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John
18/4.3 StarStructure/ZOC on Order!
My Image Gallery
My Weather
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blb
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/25/05
Posts: 501
Loc: Piedmont NC
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Has anyone considered buying $20 worth of stock as a possible gamble? I spend more than that each week when I play pool on league night. It seems like peanuts to risk for a good return in a couple of years if they make it!
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C-11, C-6, XT10i Dob, ETX125PE, TV102, & AT66
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GJJim
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/09/06
Posts: 907
Loc: Western CO
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Quote:
Has anyone considered buying $20 worth of stock as a possible gamble? I spend more than that each week when I play pool on league night. It seems like peanuts to risk for a good return in a couple of years if they make it!
A lot of people have $20 worth of MEAD stock, the problem is they paid $150-$200 for it. 
Sometimes these gambles (and that's all it is) pay off. I purchased shares in a small simulator company, FATS, some years ago at 17 cents and it was eventually acquired for $1 a share. Could this happen with Meade? Place your bets...
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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$0.09 today.
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AlexDJ30
sage
Reged: 09/02/08
Posts: 294
Loc: Monterrey, Mexico
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My god...i would buy some stock for the sake only to get my hands on this paper and put it on a good frame (when the time comes when meade stock goes death, hope the company nope i have an ETX.125)like hey i have old meade stock LOL
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Equipment:
- ETX 125 AT
- C6 ASGT
- WO 66mm SD
- 2.5X ED Barlow, 8-24mm Zoom Eyepice
- Canon EOS Rebel XSi
- Celestron Nextimagen
- Orion Starshoot CCD cam
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Rick Woods
Postmaster
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 6267
Loc: Inner Solar System
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$0.08 just now.
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- Rick
14" LX200GPS
Dyslexics Untie!
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Clive Gibbons
Mostly Harmless
Reged: 05/26/05
Posts: 14148
Loc: Oort Cloud
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Do they have a Christmas program with Wal-Mart this year?
If not, their #1 customer has gone bye-bye...
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A few telescopes of dubious value.
Understanding wife, two curious cats and one sadly departed.
"Semper ubi sub ubi"
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NeoDinian
Experienced Postmaster
Reged: 10/05/05
Posts: 12948
Loc: Rockford Illinois
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I'll buy 10,000 shares at .01!
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Neo... (Jeff)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
10" LX200-GPS/SMT UHTC "Draco"
 Rockford, Il.
NeoDinian's Eye on the Sky!
Coming soon:
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Bob Griffiths
Getting Grouchy
Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 7272
Loc: Frederick Maryland
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wonder just what size the actual stock certificate is..? at this price I could afford to paper the walls of my observatory with the certificates... got to be cheaper then paint...
BTW..can you actually now get the actual certificates...???.
Been 30 years since I had any "real" stock certificates in my possession ...
Bob G
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CPC1100
Nexstar 8i + GPS & Rays Brackets
Denk S1 power switch
Orion 100 mm Refractor
Meade LXD 55 ...AR-5 127 mm Refractor
Exploradome Observatory S.I.E. (Smiling Irish Eyes)
Gerbring Heated Motorcycle clothing in the winter
39*21'03" N
77*28'12" W
The sky over my head....
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NeoDinian
Experienced Postmaster
Reged: 10/05/05
Posts: 12948
Loc: Rockford Illinois
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I think nowadays it's all "Electronic Shares". A shareholding company has the "Proof" and all you get is a statement.
I think you pay MORE if you want the certificates.
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Neo... (Jeff)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
10" LX200-GPS/SMT UHTC "Draco"
Rockford, Il.
NeoDinian's Eye on the Sky!
Coming soon:
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imjeffp
Aluminum Falcon
Reged: 09/30/03
Posts: 4977
Loc: Cedar Park, Texas
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You could have doubled your money today. Up 0.09 to 0.18!
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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Quote:
I think nowadays it's all "Electronic Shares". A shareholding company has the "Proof" and all you get is a statement.
That is correct.
Quote:
I think you pay MORE if you want the certificates.
They should send you the certificates if you ask. I think they may be able to charge you for the postage, and possibly a small handling fee - you do own the stock, after all.
They don't really like sending out the certificates, because it's harder to track them, and it's WAY more difficult to ever sell them. I'm not sure how brokerages feel about sending out shares for stocks that trade for less than than $1.00. Annoyed, I'd assume.
In this case, the postage for a share of Meade stock is higher than the price of the stock certificate...
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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Quote:
You could have doubled your money today. Up 0.09 to 0.18!
Well, yes, but not very much money as it happens. We're only talking about ~$5.3K in volume moving the stock 100% 
I actually like the odds better at this place:
Choctaw Casinos
And the best part is I pass it on the way to my observatory every week!
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pdlpsher
member
Reged: 04/30/08
Posts: 47
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Quote:
You could have doubled your money today. Up 0.09 to 0.18!
Not true! The bid and ask spread on thinly-traded penny stocks can be huge if one tries to unload a bunch of shares at once. If I want to buy 100,000 shares at once I may have to pay more than $.30 a share since very few open orders exist at prices under $.30.
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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Quote:
Not true! The bid and ask spread on thinly-traded penny stocks can be huge if one tries to unload a bunch of shares at once. If I want to buy 100,000 shares at once I may have to pay more than $.30 a share since very few open orders exist at prices under $.30.
Yep, that's right. There's no way anyone could've accumulated significant shares at $0.08 - look what happened today when someone bought 25K shares...
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GeorgeDuke
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/24/03
Posts: 1602
Loc: PARADISE! (So.Florida)
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I have a beautiful engraved stock certificate for 14 shares of Waterman Marine Co.
It was owned by the company I was working for but they got rid of it and gave us stock value to compensate for the lost value in our stock plan.
After I left my employer I tried to locate Waterman but it was nowhere to be found, out of business. So, I figured at least I got a nice certificate out of it!
A few years later I started getting emails from people that search out unclaimed money and tell you they will lead you to the money for a hefty cut of around 40%!
Not willing to reward those leaches I called my CPA and asked him about it. He told me to call the Secretary of State's office and ask them if I had any unclaimed funds.
Sure enough! Waterman marine tried to find me when they went under. Unsuccessful they were required to deposit the money owed to me with the State of Florida. All I had to do was prove who I was and the State sent me about $375 dollars.
My feeling is if Meade folds and you own stock, they will be required to deposit the money owed to you with your State Treasurer's office. They say it is a good idea to do an unclaimed funds search periodically and you might be surprised at what you find! There are billions of dollars of unclaimed funds sitting around collecting interest!
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George
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SkyShed POD XL-3
LX200GPS 203mm f10
StellarVue SV102ED2 Feathertouch Ser#0018
LXD75 GOTO with Orion 16" pier extension
Baader Hyperion 8mm ,13mm, 21mm + FTRs
2" GSO ED barlow, 2" SV Dielectric and Orion Prism Diagonals
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Jaxdialation
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/01/07
Posts: 2652
Loc: Northeast, FL
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Well first the will have to pay off a bunch of creditors.
The creditors will oversee the liquidation. But the specifics depend on the laws I'm not familiar with. As long as you have an up to date address, or have a broker holding your stock for you, you will get your money without going to the State for it.
You lost track of your money because you physically held the stock certificate, And probably changed addresses.
You are dead right about the billions of unclaimed dollars though!
Quote:
My feeling is if Meade folds and you own stock, they will be required to deposit the money owed to you with your State Treasurer's office. They say it is a good idea to do an unclaimed funds search periodically and you might be surprised at what you find! There are billions of dollars of unclaimed funds sitting around collecting interest!
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John
18/4.3 StarStructure/ZOC on Order!
My Image Gallery
My Weather
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peterm
member
Reged: 03/31/07
Posts: 24
Loc: Queensland Australia
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Why so many posts making it sound like a foregone conclusion Meade are just about dead and all the post mortems about a carve up? I have a Meade 12inch LX200R that helped me discover my first supernova (2008fa) it is the best scope I have ever owned in 30 yrs involved in Astronomy and I for one send my very best wishes to Meade and their staff for their survival and prosperity in 2009 in what are incredibly tough times in US and world, regardless of what they did or didn't do right in the past. Hey to you guys at Meade if you read these threads I for one say your LX200ACF is the most superior telescope available in the market for your dollar by far,far,far. I have not had any issues with my scope (nor my ETX125 travel scope) and I simply love the reliability and technology that my (Aussie) dollars bought me, I would do it again and again and again even today. I am really flabbergasted at reading the continual oh yeah Meade are about to go bust and I for one will stick up (for the many)in support of this very innovative company and it's superior products. It is impossible to go past the value for money and technology that you get in a Meade. The only company dared to set the bar and push the... good old USA envelope as you guys in the US used to be famous for. I couldn't give a brass razzoo for the flack I will probably cop over this post as being a Meade boy. I support the Meade compamy 100% and I would like to see this thread turn from the oh gulp the shares are at 8c, 15cents, so what to something more positive, like why the heck should share price stop you buying a Meade product. You guys have a fabulous telescope innovator that others follow or envy that is still US owned - please help to keep it that way, unless you really like to see all your innovative companies owned by overseas companies.
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cold space
super member
Reged: 09/09/07
Posts: 118
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Well said.
I think in these troubled times people need to start thinking positives rather than negatives. I for one would hope they stay afloat as without inovative companies that can put these telescopes in the price range of most of us then this hobby would only be for the rich.
Come on everyone, go out and buy something Meade even if its only 1 small item.
Matt.
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GJJim
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/09/06
Posts: 907
Loc: Western CO
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Quote:
[snip]
like why the heck should share price stop you buying a Meade product. You guys have a fabulous telescope innovator that others follow or envy that is still US owned - please help to keep it that way, unless you really like to see all your innovative companies owned by overseas companies.
We have plenty of innovative telescope companies here in the U.S. that are "pushing the envelope" in both mechanical and optical engineering. Our economic system thrives on creative destruction, where weak and incompetent companies fall by the wayside and are replaced by those with better products and management.
You can't simply ignore the mistakes of Meade management in recent years -- now they have to sleep in the bed they made for themselves and shareholders. IMO the best thing that could happen now is for another U.S. company to acquire Meade's intellectual property and tooling assets and continue to offer their ACF telescopes, minus the blinking lights and kludge gizmos.
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Joad
Wordsmith
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 13591
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Just a friendly moderator reminder about the rules: we are allowed to discuss such matters as comprise this thread's topic, but there is certainly no need to condemn Meade or anyone else.
Also, from my reading of the business side of things, there is really no danger that our conversation here, or even our purchasing activities, will have any affect on Meade's future. More critical in the past, for example, was the failed Simmons acquisition, which had been intended to increase profits with the sale of cheap rifle scopes. Meade was also unlucky that its bid to profit from the dot.com era went down with the dot.bomb. And we have to remember that aside from premium, small-scale telescope makers, no American telescope manufacturer has been able to survive the grim realities of a genuinely global economy.
I completely agree that Meade has been very innovative, especially with the RCX/ACF line, which unfortunately suffered from the same problems that BMW and Mercedes Benz automobiles have suffered from in being too highly computerized and wired up.
Bad things happen to good companies.
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12.5 inch Portaball + Osypowski platform
LX10
Oberwerk BT100 45° binocular
Orion binoviewer + ScopeStuff extender (so it focuses at f/4.9)
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Joseph Gillman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 2975
Loc: Due south of the North Pole (A...
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Quote:
Why so many posts making it sound like a foregone conclusion Meade are just about dead and all the post mortems about a carve up? I have a Meade 12inch LX200R that helped me discover my first supernova (2008fa) it is the best scope I have ever owned in 30 yrs involved in Astronomy and I for one send my very best wishes to Meade and their staff for their survival and prosperity in 2009 in what are incredibly tough times in US and world, regardless of what they did or didn't do right in the past. Hey to you guys at Meade if you read these threads I for one say your LX200ACF is the most superior telescope available in the market for your dollar by far,far,far. I have not had any issues with my scope (nor my ETX125 travel scope) and I simply love...
This is not the forum for you, or me it seems. Only lambasting the once great scope company is allowable here. I too hate the tone of "20 cents!" "17 cents!" "fifteen cents!!!" "here it cooommeeesss!!!" type posts here. Like vultures circling above a group of hungry, thirsty explorers in the hot desert sun. I can't make it stop, I've tried.
If it were said about any other company it would be called vendor bashing and not allowed at Cloudynights.
What's the stock price of other major telescope makers, anyway? It has nothing to do with choosing or using a telescope which is what this forum used to be about!
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JAT Observatory
Got Cookies?
Reged: 02/20/05
Posts: 7148
Loc: Eastern PA
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Quote:
What's the stock price of other major telescope makers, anyway? It has nothing to do with choosing or using a telescope which is what this forum used to be about!
Joe,
I respectfully disagree it has everything to do with choosing a scope. I am a Meade owner. I have purchased a number of Meade items new and used. My most recent was a used 12" OTA.
I get ask by friends and co-worker about what would be a good scope. If it is a motorized scope they are looking for I no longer recommend a Meade. If they are looking for a good OTA to attach to some other brand of mount I'll recommend a Meade OTA. In Meade's current state I wouldn't recommend a Meade mount to anyone.
I only recommend Meade items that don't require the owner to rely on Meade as the repair source or if the item is cheap enough that it is not worth the cost to repair. My reasoning is OTAs with care will not malfunction and mirror can be recoated by 3rd parties so if Meade go belly up the owner has a recourse.
Do I want Meade to survive and do well? Yep. I am I willing to take a chance that they will or recommend their products to friend in hopes that they will? Nope.
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-Marcus
Earth is the insane asylum for the universe!
http://www.jatobservatory.org
Domed, 12" LX200R on a Paramount ME - currently mothballed.
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Joad
Wordsmith
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 13591
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The rules as to what constitutes "vendor bashing" have been officially loosened up by the administration of Cloudy Nights. That does not mean that anyone can lie about or slander a company, but discussing a public stock price or the future of a company is allowed by the rules. The rule change was made a few months ago.
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12.5 inch Portaball + Osypowski platform
LX10
Oberwerk BT100 45° binocular
Orion binoviewer + ScopeStuff extender (so it focuses at f/4.9)
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peterm
member
Reged: 03/31/07
Posts: 24
Loc: Queensland Australia
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Would I spend $9000 Aussie dollars on a Meade 12inch LX200 today if I had it? I sure would! I did it just a year ago, it works perfectly fine, exactly as the Meade stated it would and Meade are still here, and about to bring out a new ETX despite the doomsday posts that have been going on for over a year. If this thread continues I want some balance in this thread, sure it's a "gulp" post that states where the share price is - no problem with that but there are too many post mortems / speculation on something that's not dead - I think that has gone beyond the threads original title and usefullness. In the past 12 months I have used my scope on 120 nights at an average of 4 hours per night, flawlessly - this is what makes me go gulp.
PeterM
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 25876
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
In the past 12 months I have used my scope on 120 nights at an average of 4 hours per night, flawlessly - this is what makes me go gulp.
PeterM
Thanks for your report. This is, after all, a telescope Forum.
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John C
Urban Observatory
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
Meade 80mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Meade 152ED, 178ED F/9 "APO"
Meade 12" SCT
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
NJP, LXD700, CGE, GPDX/SS2KPC
ST-10XME, DSI Pro
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peterm
member
Reged: 03/31/07
Posts: 24
Loc: Queensland Australia
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Thank you John
Wise words indeed.
PeterM
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Jaxdialation
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/01/07
Posts: 2652
Loc: Northeast, FL
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Indeed, in fact it is called "Telescope Reviews". Telescopes are made and supported by companies. This thread may be long and "meandering", but is only one of thousands about Meade Scopes.
Quote:
Thanks for your report. This is, after all, a telescope Forum.
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John
18/4.3 StarStructure/ZOC on Order!
My Image Gallery
My Weather
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Rick Woods
Postmaster
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 6267
Loc: Inner Solar System
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Eeek - $0.07!!!
Quick, someone buy a Meade scope!
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- Rick
14" LX200GPS
Dyslexics Untie!
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Scott K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1531
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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This is just sad. A Meade 8" LX200 ACF sells for the equivalent of 38,557 shares of Meade's stock.
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GeorgeDuke
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/24/03
Posts: 1602
Loc: PARADISE! (So.Florida)
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My first scope purchased about 7 years ago was and is a Meade LX200GPS 8". It has always worked 100% and has outstanding optics.
If taken care of and used properly it should last for??? ever? It is not the kind of thing that wears out.
I am not worried in the least about my Meade equipment and if I could afford it I would purchase one of the new "R" optics scopes.
I have just acquired a Skyshed POD and my LX200 will finally have a home so I don't have to lug it in and out!
If I win the lottery I will buy up all the Meade Stock!
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George
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SkyShed POD XL-3
LX200GPS 203mm f10
StellarVue SV102ED2 Feathertouch Ser#0018
LXD75 GOTO with Orion 16" pier extension
Baader Hyperion 8mm ,13mm, 21mm + FTRs
2" GSO ED barlow, 2" SV Dielectric and Orion Prism Diagonals
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