CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Well, I've about decided to get started with my observatory. I'm going with an Exploradome, but that is the only thing I know for sure. At first I thought I'd get the 10'6" round prefab setup, but after reading so much here, it seems that more space is always better. So I changed my mind and decided to go with the 10'x10' building. The prefab price for a square building is $4600. I decided I could build the building cheaper myself and just buy the dome and hardware. I want to put it on a deck and have an isolated deck within the deck for my scope. For now, I've opted not to have a pier. Now here's where I need your help. I'm a total novice when it comes to construction, and this is going to be a one woman project, so I know it will take a loooong time to finish. Now, where do I begin? I do know I will need a building permit, and I will have to show some basic plans to the city. After I get all the necessary permits, I will need to start with the deck. Do I go with a floating deck or dig holes and put in posts and concrete? This deck will be on an approximate 40 degree slope. I'd like to build either a 12'x14' or 12'x16' deck. What size joists should I use? Can I use 2x6's? 2x8's in the right lengths are hard to find at our local chain store. I have so many questions, I honestly don't know where to begin, but I think for now I just need to focus on the deck. I'm really excited about this project, but a little intimidated by it too, so I need all the  you can give!! I'm going to be gone for a couple of days, but I will be back as soon as I can. Thanks in advance for all the great advice I know you have to share!!
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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astrotrf
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/30/07
Posts: 709
Loc: Rodeo, NM
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Lowe's has an online deck designer (you have to register, so I didn't actually play with it), so you might want to start there. I presume that it will calculate sizing of structural members, etc.
For lumber, my advice would be to skip the chain stores and find a lumberyard. In fact, some lumberyards will have structural-design software and somebody who knows how to use it; they may be able to help you with the design on the spot.
You may want to hit amazon and buy a book on building a deck; that'll give you a good handle on how to go about it. You might even visit some of the do-it-yourself TV show web sites; they may sell videos of shows they've done on how to build a deck.
That 40-degree slope is going to complicate matters a great deal. That's going to mean one end of the deck will be *well* off the ground; you'll need to adequately brace the tall posts there.
A "floating deck" just means it's not attached to the house; it's not an alternative to posts and concrete, which are going to be necessary in any case. I would recommend NOT attaching the deck to the house unless you can get expert help for that piece of the construction job; it will have to be done properly so as to prevent water entry into your house's exterior wall.
There's a lot more to say about choices of structural lumber and decking material, using lag bolts and the proper nails or screws, etc. Do some of your own research to educate yourself, or ask a friend you have reason to believe actually *knows* the correct answers. The folks at the lumberyard will not always sell you the right thing.
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Terry (astrotrf)
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Rusty
Postmaster
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 17728
Loc: Brooker, FL
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First, having participated in the base construction of the Exploradome which was the subject of a recent comparo in Astronomy, I discovered an error in the wall plans, in that the load-bearing members of the transition section (from the walls to the dome itself) didn't line up with the load-bearing members of the walls. This was based on Exploradome's furnished plans, and I stumbled on the issue early enough so we could correct the plans.
Now, to address the no-pier issue...I think you may have a problem with the deck-within-a-deck on a 40° slope; my guess is that a pier - or at least a level concrete slab recessed into the ground would be a worthy consideration. I suspect the problem is that the upslope pillars would be shorter than the downslope side, and this would be difficult to make stable (but large enough lumber would do it). At the least, I'd level the ground where the inner deck would be installed, so that all pillars would be the same height, and if it were I, I'd go no less than 4x4s; 6x6s preferred, but at the lengths you'll need, the latter would be pretty heavy. Any lumber in contact with the ground should be pressured-treated, and rated for the application. Not all PT lumber is the same. I'd certainly recommend placing the deck-within-a-deck as close to the upslope end as possible, to keep the pillars short.
2x6 on 16" centers would do OK (but 2x8s would allow 24") centers with 3/4" plywood subfloor - if local bbuilding/zoning allows - 2x6s are marginal for this span. Note that the "cutout" for the deck-within-a-deck is going to require some extra support for the main deck, and this could get complex.
Since you're in Oklahoma ("Where the wind comes sweeping down the plain"), I'd completely discard any notion of a floating deck - sink posts. Referring back to that Astronomy comparo, the reviewer kept the Exploradome, and Tropical Storm Fay tested it with 60 mph winds, and no problem.
And here I'd give a plug for Backyard Observatories, owned by CN's own Dob Frog and Scott Horstman. They can furnish plans; those off-the-shelf are quite economical, and a set of custom plans, no doubt costing more, would be a VERY worthwhile investment. Not only would the issues with plans for the building and zoning department be minimized, you'd have a working set of plans to build without fear of the build-rip-it-out-try-again thing. Scott knows his stuff; I've seen several of his observatories, and worked with him on his own. He's good.
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N11GPS Fastar
TOA-130S
MK66 Std
Vintage C5
Megrez II 80mm ED Triplet APO
SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II
Sirius EQ-G
ST8XE/CFW-8(LRGBHa)/AO-7/DF-2/STV Dlx/ST237a/350D (Unmodded)/Mallincam Color Hyper Plus/DSI III Color/DSI II Pro
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Maggie and Casey
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
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RobVG
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/09/06
Posts: 740
Loc: Seattle Washington
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Quote:
Am I Ever Going to Need Your Help!!!
I don't know, will you? 
I built on a 3 to 1 slope. It's only 8'x8', but it might give you an idea how to do it.
Check out the link in my signature.
Rob
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C11 SGT(XLT)CG-5
Observatory (page 5)
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csa/montana
Wild Spirit
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40276
Loc: montana
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CarolG. Congratulations! I so admire you tackling this project by yourself; except you are not really by yourself, you have all the great people here to help you along, & to provide encouragement!
My ROR is on a 10X10 floating floor; as it also is on a slope. It's been up for a year now, with no problems.
How about posting a picture of your Observatory site? That might help others to give you their best suggestions.
Best of luck CarolG, You Go, Girl! 
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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Mike Lewis
sage
Reged: 01/20/05
Posts: 385
Loc: Near Mulliken, Michigan USA
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Hi CarolG,
Congrats on getting started!!! You've gotten some good advice! You definitely need to sink your posts (to your local frost level at least) and 2x8's are the right choice.
Rusty's advice to talk to Scott and Diane is right on the mark!!!!You won't regret it!! I also have a deck book around here somewhere and would be glad to loan it to ya if you'd like. PM me if interested.
Most of all, do your homework and take your time!!!
Good luck and keep asking questions!!
Best skies
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Mike
.......................
Meade 7" Mak
Home built 8" Dob
120mm Sywatcher refractor
76mm Borg
Home built 12.5" Truss, F/5.6 Zambuto
PST
Dunham Hill Observatory
"Most people never look up, what a shame...."
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Rusty
Postmaster
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 17728
Loc: Brooker, FL
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Quote:
My ROR is on a 10X10 floating floor; as it also is on a slope. It's been up for a year now, with no problems.
The reason I suggest tying the deck into the ground is that the dome presents much more sail area than a ROR.
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N11GPS Fastar
TOA-130S
MK66 Std
Vintage C5
Megrez II 80mm ED Triplet APO
SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II
Sirius EQ-G
ST8XE/CFW-8(LRGBHa)/AO-7/DF-2/STV Dlx/ST237a/350D (Unmodded)/Mallincam Color Hyper Plus/DSI III Color/DSI II Pro
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Maggie and Casey
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
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Scott K
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1410
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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Quote:
Now, to address the no-pier issue...I think you may have a problem with the deck-within-a-deck on a 40° slope; my guess is that a pier - or at least a level concrete slab recessed into the ground would be a worthy consideration.
Since you're in Oklahoma ("Where the wind comes sweeping down the plain"), I'd completely discard any notion of a floating deck - sink posts.
I'm going to agree with Rusty 100% here - if I had to build my observatory again, this is precisely how I'd do it.
You really should build a concrete pier - or at least a footer onto which you can mount a pier. You'll want this for stability.
The great thing about building a deck is that it's much, much easier to level, and you can build it above grade, and seal the structure on it from water much more easily than with a concrete foundation.
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Bob Griffiths
Postmaster
Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 6590
Loc: Frederick Maryland
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Well Carol...Congratulations... my ED will mark its 1st light ...2nd anniversary this Thursday...
Got a question... on the deck...how high off the ground is it...?
The floor of my observatory straddles a huge tree stump ($2,800 buck quote just to cut down tree...ended up costing me $800 and let the tree trimmer have the wood).. anyhow way to expensive to have the stump removed...so I built my "deck" seven foot off the ground...built it 12x10 feet 10x10 with a solid floor and a 2x10 section of regular decking...made a nice place to place flower boxes etc.. I used 2x12 boards for my joists...placed them on 12 " centers .. way overkill but I'm a Tm Allen type and consider overkill to be the only way to build something.. ... used 6x6 posts in the ground ...
Solved the pier problem by building a small 4x4 foot little deck 5 foot tall directly under the observatory... used 3/4 inch plywood for the decking and put in 3 layers (2.25 inches think of plywood..)...I then placed an Antares portable pier on the "lower" deck...sandbagged it in place and of course isolated it from the obs... this was intended to be a temporary solution until I figured a way to get rid of the stump... well after 2 years of use I no longer consider it temporary..it works just fine...
I do not image BUT this pier set up is more then stable enough to hold an 11' SCT..much better then the tripod ever was...
BTW... The standard rate around here for Carpenters to do "side jobs" on the weekends is to charge you double the
material price... My sons actually built my deck and building for me in one day..materials for the deck/building and lower deck was just under $1000... so I estimate that you could find a carpenter to build everything for you for $1000..plus materials..
I did NOT need a building permit as anything up to 100 square foot did not require any ...so you may not need one...?
I did use the plans for the building...and I had no problems like those mentioned by Rusty...the weight of the Dome itself and the transition panels is under 200 pounds...and does not put a lot of "load" on the supporting structure..
There is an Exploradome Yahoo group which is pretty active... JOIN IT...
Bob G.
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CPC1100
Nexstar 8i + GPS & Rays Brackets
Denk S1 power switch
Orion 100 mm Refractor
Meade LXD 55 ...AR-5 127 mm Refractor
Exploradome Observatory S.I.E. (Smiling Irish Eyes)
Gerbring Heated Motorcycle clothing in the winter
39*21'03" N
77*28'12" W
The sky over my head....
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rsbfoto
sage
Reged: 06/10/06
Posts: 341
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Quote:
... For now, I've opted not to have a pier. ...
Hi Carol,
You already got tons of advice.
The only thing that makes me wonder and shiver is the sentence you write and I quoted above.
¿ Are you 100% sure ? 
One day you surely will want to put a pier into your observatory and adding it later into an existing building make things from my point of view very very annoying. Once you moved into the observatory ...
Just think about the changes which will have to be done.
Just think about digging out the hole inside the finished building. From my side I nearly would prefer to build a separate new Observatory on another spot starting with the hole for the pier.
OK, it is your decision but ...
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regards Rainer
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BluewaterObserva
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/04
Posts: 4968
Loc: Zuni Mtns, NM
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Without a pier? It's way better to do a gravel floor and cement tile or other wise type of tile floor. You can isolate the one tile in the middle for the scope to sit on. Pretty elegant simple solution that bears looking into.
You can use the gravel to level the erea as well. Pretty good no shaking, no pier solution.
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csa/montana
Wild Spirit
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40276
Loc: montana
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Quote:
You really should build a concrete pier - or at least a footer onto which you can mount a pier. You'll want this for stability.
CarolG: Here's how I did mine for my Dob: Used the bottom of a 50'gal drum; later removed some of the framing around it, built new framing down to the ground around the drum, & poured more completely around the drum. Maybe not the best way, but a girl's gotta do, what a girl's gotta do 
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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csa/montana
Wild Spirit
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40276
Loc: montana
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floor:
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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Scott K
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1410
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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Quote:
One day you surely will want to put a pier into your observatory and adding it later into an existing building make things from my point of view very very annoying. Once you moved into the observatory ...
Let me just add that doing it right the first time is really important. Read my horrible, horrible thread entitled "how not to build a pier footer", and just look at what I went through trying to fix mistakes I made early on. I can tell you that I've spent nearly as much trying to fix my dome's foundation as I spent pouring the stupid thing in the first place. Doing things the right way will, no doubt, increase your cost and effort a bit. This is regrettable. It will, however, be much much cheaper and much less trouble in the long run than trying to fix something that's almost, but not quite, right.
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Bob Griffiths
Postmaster
Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 6590
Loc: Frederick Maryland
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As a visual observer I really did not need to anchor my scope to the Rock of Gibraltar so I opted for a portable pier placed on a solid footing under my observatory floor. which I explained in my earlier post in this thread ..works great ..stable, isolated yada yada yada
BUT to me the MAJOR advantage is that it opens up a heck of a lot of walking room inside the observatory ..no more tripod legs to trip over etc... no more having to place your observation chair off to one side because a darn tripod leg is dab smack in the way of the chair... and even if you have to pick up the chair and move it to observe in the opposite side of the sky you no not have to watch out for the chair hitting a tripod leg etc...
Take everyone's advice and at least pour a concrete base for a pier like Caro/Montana did....The entire idea behind my observatory is to have my "stuff" all in one place, always ready to use, scope aligned 24/7, and get me out of the cold winter breezes...why skimp and place a 3 legged tripod that you have to avoid...
Bob G
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CPC1100
Nexstar 8i + GPS & Rays Brackets
Denk S1 power switch
Orion 100 mm Refractor
Meade LXD 55 ...AR-5 127 mm Refractor
Exploradome Observatory S.I.E. (Smiling Irish Eyes)
Gerbring Heated Motorcycle clothing in the winter
39*21'03" N
77*28'12" W
The sky over my head....
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Thanks everyone for your advice. I'll write more tomorrow when I'm not so exhausted. I have pictures of the slope, but I don't know if you can tell much from them, but I will post them tomorrow. About a year ago I ordered Scott's (BYO) plans, and they are very helpful. Now to tell you a little bit about what I learned this morning as I was staking out the obs outline. First, the deck is all wrong, I think. I think a 10' x 16' deck would be better. There's too much wasted space with a 12x14 or 12x16. I want to have a little "porch" in front (about 4') and a 2' extension to the building in the back-similar to the ED 'bays'. If I place the long side of the deck from the top of the hill down, the elevation on the high end is about 36". The reason for the deck within the deck is because I don't have a pier-my Nexstar 11 is on a tripod. However, you have me rethinking the pier issue. I laid out a 42" square for the tripod, and it didn't leave much room inside. That's why I am considering adding a 'bay'. Digging a pier or post holes, for that matter, is going to be a challenge since the hill is mostly rock. I had a hard time getting the stakes in the ground-kept hitting rocks. My husband is a good source for advice, since he has done quite a bit of building, but he thinks this project is a waste of time and money. His advice so far is to put up my dark sky panels and lug everything outside, but in all fairness, I think he will help if I really need it. I could hire it done, but part of the fun is the journey to the destination. Well, I will write more tomorrow and post some pics. I will have lots and lots of questions as time goes by. Again, thanks for your help.
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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Scott K
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1410
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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What part of Oklahoma are you in, by the way?
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Scott, I've read your entire saga of 'How not to build a pier' and it looks like you've been dealing with some pretty major problems. I just read about your leaks, and it seems your problems never end. Good luck!! But, to answer your question, I'm in southern OK not too far from the Red River.
I've been thinking about the pier issue, and I think I'll go with the pier and ditch the tripod. But before I get ahead of myself, here's some pics showing the site. We have 2 very wooded acres, and I had 3 choices, well 2 really, for sites. The only open site with a nice southern exposure is right in the middle of the front yard, so that was out. Next is the flat roof of the garage, and I seriously considered that, for about 2 seconds. I knew I'd have to put a hole in the roof to build a pier, and I didn't want to do that. So that left this site. Lots of trees, but actually I've got more open sky there than I do here in the city. Plus, I can actually see stars there, so I can't complain much. As funds allow, I will eventually take out some more trees. (My son and I have already cut down 15). Anyway, here's a pic looking west. I'm standing about a third of the way down the hill.
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Here's one on top of the hill looking north onto the golf course.
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Here's one looking east. I've roughly staked it out with the 10x10 building outline in the bottom left corner and the tripod site inside that. The outer borders on the top and right sides of the pic are the outlines of the deck, which I will alter.
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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This one is facing south at the bottom of the hill. I will eventually take out those trees on the left. The house blocks some of the view, but it will also block the lights from the subdivision that is being built across the road south of us. It also blocks the town lights.
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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Scott K
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1410
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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Quote:
Scott, I've read your entire saga of 'How not to build a pier' and it looks like you've been dealing with some pretty major problems. I just read about your leaks, and it seems your problems never end. Good luck!! But, to answer your question, I'm in southern OK not too far from the Red River.
Well, if you are ever in the mood to visit, let me know - I'm up by Eufaula. Despite my long horrible threads, the Eufodome works quite well. Really the basic problems I have are all related to the foundation. My contractor did a horrible, horrible job. He didn't build what I asked, and he didn't get it particuarly level. Inexcusably awful. (And stupid too - I have two porches that will need replacement in the next year or so.) Anyway, I am on the home stretch. I am reasonably confident that nothing I do will ever be as horrible as opening up the concrete around the pier footer.
Quote:
I've been thinking about the pier issue, and I think I'll go with the pier and ditch the tripod.
Good things about a pier:
1. Space - it's easy to trip over tripod legs in the dark. And it's real dark in the dome if you did it right!
2. Since the pier is fixed, you can permanently polar align your mount. This reduces startup time a lot. (And you'll do a better job of it since you only have to do it once.)
3. It tends to be a better platform if you decide to do some astrophotography.
4. If you do it right, you can hang electrical outlets and data cables from it, and then have them go below your floor - again making it much, much tidier in your dome.
Your site looks great, by the way!
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Rob, I really enjoyed looking at your observatory project. It looked like you had more than a 3 to 1 slope. It looked like you were on the edge of a cliff!! It is absolutely beautiful, and I hope you are enjoying it. Just looking at your beautiful surroundings must be wonderful and relaxing.
Carol, your 50 gal drum idea is very clever, but then you always come up with such wonderfully practical ideas. Your site is beautiful. Wish I could give you some of my trees!
All of you have already given me so much to think about. I will have to get some type of plan finalized and drawn out. The city does require a permit (if a wall goes up, a permit is required). They also want to know how far it will be from the property lines (don't think that will be a problem). So there's a lot to do, and I want to do it right the first time. That hill may not be the only thing full of rocks!
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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Spoonsize
Vendor/Clothing
Reged: 08/27/04
Posts: 3297
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Hi Carol....
My 2 cents...
I like to suggest removing the upper half of the slope and placing in on the lower half to be able to build on a more level spot. Me thinks it would look good with a curved retaining wall of rocks or stone or brick or pressure treated landscaping wood. Move enough ground to leave a space between the Obs and the retaining wall. Level the ground above the retaining wall...a perfect place for a curved flower bed.
This would eliminate having one end too high off the ground.
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Steve Durham
www.margesmonograms.com
(Marge made me do it)
"Nobody get's in to see the WIZARD, Not Nobody, Not Nohow"
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Oh, my aching back!! Your idea sounds good, but how would you compact the moved dirt so it would provide a solid footing? Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems like I would still have to put the posts into the ground. I can see the moved dirt would provide support around the posts, but why couldn't I just use braces like RobVG did on his obs. If I moved all that dirt and rocks, it would have to be with a shovel and wheelbarrow and this gal pushin' 60 ain't up to that task. Hmm I wonder, though, how much excavation that would involve. I'll ponder it.
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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rodney
Vendor - Explora Dome
Reged: 03/08/05
Posts: 812
Loc: Asbury, NJ
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Carol,
Take a look at my Explora Dome construction pics in the link below. I am on about the same slope as you, and have been up for well over a year now with no problems. Heck, everything on my property is on a slope.
Clear skies,
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Explora Dome information can be found here:
www.exploradome.us
Rodney
Meade 10 SCT
AT 8/F4 imaging scope
13 Truss
C8-NGT
Orion 80mm/F11
Canon 300D
Canon XSi
Two AS-GT mounts
Extremely happy Explora Dome home observatory owner
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Spoonsize
Vendor/Clothing
Reged: 08/27/04
Posts: 3297
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I'll post a pic here...
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Steve Durham
www.margesmonograms.com
(Marge made me do it)
"Nobody get's in to see the WIZARD, Not Nobody, Not Nohow"
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Rodney, I'd seen your pics before and it does look like you have a similar slope. How high is the high end? And you've had no problems? This is very encouraging!
Steve, is that gray stuff what I think it is? What happened?
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Rodney, I know you know a lot about ED's, and I probably should post this question on the ED Yahoo forum, but I'll ask it here. How high are your walls, and what do think could be the maximum height of a wall in an ED?
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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mikey cee
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/18/07
Posts: 3530
Loc: bellevue ne.
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Carol....Have you considered hiring a concrete contractor to come in and neatly remove dirt. You could clear an area 10' further south than needed for a retaining wall. When the observatory is comlpeted you can then landscape around it. I'm a pro at this stuff and this is looking to me like the tougher of two roads to travel! Believe me dirt compaction is not going to be a problem. Please reconsider. A couple 2-3 feet lower is not going to alter your horizons that much! Mike
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7x35 and 10x50 sears tower binocs, 3" f/10 edmunds reflector, 2.4" f/11.7 manon refractor, 6" f/8 jaegers refractor, "The 8 Ball" 8" f/13.3 brandt refractor, 3" f/15.8 sans&streiffe refractor, 3.1" f/15 selsi refractor(towa 339), 2.4" f/15 sears refractor, selsi 30x30mm spyglass, criterion 5-draw 25x45x75x spyglass(1957), 4.25" f/14.8 tasco 20te.
Edited by mikey cee (09/09/08 09:36 PM)
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Spoonsize
Vendor/Clothing
Reged: 08/27/04
Posts: 3297
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Quote:
Steve, is that gray stuff what I think it is? What happened?
I'm not sure what you are thinking, it is not concrete. I applied a layer of crushed stone over what you are looking at. In the center I placed a pier. Around it, the observatory sets directly on the crushed stone. No holes to dig. No legs to brace. No deck to fall from. No slope to deal with whatsoever.
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Steve Durham
www.margesmonograms.com
(Marge made me do it)
"Nobody get's in to see the WIZARD, Not Nobody, Not Nohow"
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Rusty
Postmaster
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 17728
Loc: Brooker, FL
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I agree with mikey cee - hire an excavating contractor and level the site. Yours appears to me to be more like 15° (maybe max 20°) than 40°. Some kind of barrier to divert runoff could be made from the overburden. Sometimes it's easier to lower the river than to raise the bridge...
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N11GPS Fastar
TOA-130S
MK66 Std
Vintage C5
Megrez II 80mm ED Triplet APO
SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II
Sirius EQ-G
ST8XE/CFW-8(LRGBHa)/AO-7/DF-2/STV Dlx/ST237a/350D (Unmodded)/Mallincam Color Hyper Plus/DSI III Color/DSI II Pro
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Maggie and Casey
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Please forgive me for being so dense, but why is it so bad to build on a slope with one end sticking out in mid-air, so to speak? I'm on a pretty tight budget, and I could move the dirt myself (might take a few years ), but it seems it would be cheaper to dig holes, brace the posts, and put bushes or something to hide the exposed posts. The entry to the deck would be at almost ground level. The enclosed building would be at the high end. What am I missing here? Would it be more structurally sound to have it at near ground level? I really need help understanding this.
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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RobVG
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/09/06
Posts: 740
Loc: Seattle Washington
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Hi Carol
I think the first thing you need to do is finalize your building footprint and measure the slope. Then decide what to do.
One way to measure the slope:
Get an 8' 2x4 and tape a level to the top of it.
Start at the bottom of the slope over your layout line. With one end even with your layout line and the other straight up the slope, raise or lower the bottom end of the 2x4 until it's level. Measure the height of the bottom end. Rub the uphill end of the 2x4 into the slope to mark it. Walk up the slope and repeat what you did- with the bottom end of the 2x4 even with the mark you just made in the slope.
Add the two heights together and this is the rise over sixteen feet of run.
You can build a floating deck but the size and height above ground will determine what size post you'll need and how many. Also the higher you go, the more cross bracing you'll need.
Nice to hear you liked my obs- and it is wonderful and relaxing.
(Here's a little example to help clarify what the heck I was trying to describe)
Edit: Crud, must be tired, that's a 2 to 1 slope.
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C11 SGT(XLT)CG-5
Observatory (page 5)
Edited by RobVG (09/10/08 01:21 AM)
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rodney
Vendor - Explora Dome
Reged: 03/08/05
Posts: 812
Loc: Asbury, NJ
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Carol,
My walls are 41 inches high. I use a C8-NGT in the observatory and wanted the walls a certain height. Your walls can be whatever you desire. It is all dependant upon what scope you are using. A refrator would require higher walls, SCT's and Newts not so tall.
My tallest point of the deck is 31 inches. I do not know the exact grade of my slope, but evreything on my property is on a grade of some form. If you can dig out a flat spot that would be grand. Of course if that is not in your budget (it was not in mine) you can dig a trench on the shallow end of your structure and bury a pole or 6 by 6. I would recommend a metal or concrete form to be buried. In the marina building industry they call them a "dead man". You then tie your entire structure to that "dead man" via underground cabling. It sounds hard, but it is only a matter of digging a 10 foot long trench and finding a substantial pole to bury in that trench. Sometimes, if you are lucky a local utility company will have pieces of telephone pole laying around. There are perfect for this task.
My structure rests on Dek-Blocks which rest on limestone. Extremely secure. I did pound into the ground a series of 5 foot metal tie back poles into the East (shallow side) of the observatory. I then used steel wire and tied them directly to the observatory. In over 16 months of operation the observatory has been subjected to 70 MPH plus winds, and 9 inches of pounding rain in less than 6 hours with no building shift. What will happen 5 years from now, I dunno. But for now everything is tight. I have had 4 people in the observatory at one time or another and the deck held up great. The Yahoo group has more images of other ED owners structures. Some on slops, some not. Either way it looks as if most of your concerns are being answered here. God love the CN members and their insight.
Clear skies,
--------------------
Explora Dome information can be found here:
www.exploradome.us
Rodney
Meade 10 SCT
AT 8/F4 imaging scope
13 Truss
C8-NGT
Orion 80mm/F11
Canon 300D
Canon XSi
Two AS-GT mounts
Extremely happy Explora Dome home observatory owner
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Bob Griffiths
Postmaster
Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 6590
Loc: Frederick Maryland
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Carol:
I actually made my walls 36" tall....works for me especially since I elevated my ED so the floor is 7' off the ground and I do not have to bend over and crawl thru a "short" door as I just climb up a ladder and enter via a trap door in the floor...
BTW...the Bottom of the open shutter will be about 16 inches or so higher then your walls ...so the bottom of my shutter is 52 inches off the floor ..Rodneys would be about 57 inches... just set your scope up on the tripod as you normally do and measure how high the OTA is off the ground when looking at the horizon then build your walls accordingly.....
Picture shows how I handled the "pier"...just a low level 4x4 foot deck under the obs which holds an Antares portable pier which is isolated from the main building... IF you look close you may note why I elevated the Obs because there is one heck of a large tree stump under the lower deck....you can also see the ladder I use to enter the obs ...
BTW...I just sunk 6x6's into the ground and build the main deck 7 foot off the ground.... and as for your budget...all the material for both decks, and the building was just under $1,100 ... including the gutters, paint etc...
That slop is not going to be a problem at all...
Bob G
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CPC1100
Nexstar 8i + GPS & Rays Brackets
Denk S1 power switch
Orion 100 mm Refractor
Meade LXD 55 ...AR-5 127 mm Refractor
Exploradome Observatory S.I.E. (Smiling Irish Eyes)
Gerbring Heated Motorcycle clothing in the winter
39*21'03" N
77*28'12" W
The sky over my head....
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Bob Griffiths
Postmaster
Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 6590
Loc: Frederick Maryland
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another view... shows the height etc
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CPC1100
Nexstar 8i + GPS & Rays Brackets
Denk S1 power switch
Orion 100 mm Refractor
Meade LXD 55 ...AR-5 127 mm Refractor
Exploradome Observatory S.I.E. (Smiling Irish Eyes)
Gerbring Heated Motorcycle clothing in the winter
39*21'03" N
77*28'12" W
The sky over my head....
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mikey cee
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/18/07
Posts: 3530
Loc: bellevue ne.
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Carol.....Go with a 1" smaller diameter concrete slab and your done in 3 days max. No water problems and no maintenance. That right there would sell me! Leave an opening in the center for a future pier.Mike
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7x35 and 10x50 sears tower binocs, 3" f/10 edmunds reflector, 2.4" f/11.7 manon refractor, 6" f/8 jaegers refractor, "The 8 Ball" 8" f/13.3 brandt refractor, 3" f/15.8 sans&streiffe refractor, 3.1" f/15 selsi refractor(towa 339), 2.4" f/15 sears refractor, selsi 30x30mm spyglass, criterion 5-draw 25x45x75x spyglass(1957), 4.25" f/14.8 tasco 20te.
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rsbfoto
sage
Reged: 06/10/06
Posts: 341
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Quote:
Please forgive me for being so dense, but why is it so bad to build on a slope with one end sticking out in mid-air, so to speak? I'm on a pretty tight budget, and I could move the dirt myself (might take a few years ), but it seems it would be cheaper to dig holes, brace the posts, and put bushes or something to hide the exposed posts. The entry to the deck would be at almost ground level. The enclosed building would be at the high end. What am I missing here? Would it be more structurally sound to have it at near ground level? I really need help understanding this.
Hi,
From my point of view there is nothing which speaks against having a lot of air under the observatory.
That is also the reason why I did NOT close the room underneath my cold room flor (OK, my Observatory is an extreme case).
In this image you can see 3 of those vents. From underneath they qill be closed against bugs with mosquito net.
My architect wanted to close but I said no, leave it open and I on purpose put 6x 6" tubes in the cold room floor as ventilation so when I open the roof the hot air pulls the colder ambient air into the cold room and a balance between the cold room and ambient temperature can be done quicker.
As nothing is underneath which will produce heat I will have no warm air currents.
Should there be some I have some covers for the 6" tubes and I can stop it. Maybe this is exagerated from my side but in each of my Piers I have some tubes which reach into the center of the column and I will be able to measure the pier temperature in 2 points and see how the piers change temperature over 24 hours, day by day, etc. The sun does not shine into this part and if it does the amount of it is minimum.
The higher you get with your scope away from the ground the better your seeing can be. There are many posts in different forums talking about that the first maybe up to 15' feet over the ground do have an influence in the seeing.
You have a lot of ideas coming up and it is difficult to take a decision. Follow your guts ...
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regards Rainer
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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rsbfoto, that is quite an observatory you have there!! It's amazing to me to see all the absolutely fabulous obs all of you have. Perhaps in another life I will have one as elegant as those I've seen here.
But, back to this life and my own reality! I have seriously considered the slope leveling idea, and I just am not up to that either physically or financially. I also seriously considered a concrete pad, but ruled that out because if we ever sell the house and the new buyer does not want the obs, a deck is a lot easier to remove than concrete.
So, I have decided to go with the obs on a deck that is elevated at one end. When I was a little girl, I always wanted a tree house. Maybe my wish is coming true. I won't be in a tree, but I will be a little elevated!!
RobVG, your idea is excellent. I will do that this weekend. I did put a string at the top stake and placed it at the height that the 2x8 would be and then went down the hill with a level in hand to get a rough idea of height. That's where I got the 36" elevation. I doubt it will be off by more than a few inches. So assuming 36" is the height, and if I get really bold, I may even make it higher, what size post would you recommend? I was thinking 4x6, but maybe 6x6 would be better, at least at the bottom. The top of the hill where just the open deck will be and where it won't be off the ground but a few inches, I don't think it will require such large posts. I'm thinking 4 large posts under each corner of the actual obs (that would make them 10' apart) and then the 2 posts on each corner of the deck end at the hilltop. What do you think about putting another large post at the bottom of the hill so there would be 3 posts on the north end where the elevation is? I thought about using 2-2x8x14's for the rim boards going north and south (up the hill) and 2-2x8x10's as rim boards going east and west. I would use 2x8x10's on the 12's for the floor joists. I would brace the posts and put braces in between the joists. I plan to use 3/4" 4x8 PT flooring sheets for the 10'x10' obs building floor and PT decking boards for the 4' x 10' remaining deck.
Now, back to the posts. It is raining here and will be for several days, so I thought this would be an ideal time to start digging holes. I think the frost line in southern OK is around 7", but we always go at least 18". Do you think that would be deep enough for 4x6 or 6x6 posts? Keep in mind, pleeeeease, that my auger is a shovel and post hole digger!! Please don't ask me to dig to the center of the earth! 
While I'm digging myself into a hole here, what about the pier?I don't know how high it will be, but it will be 12" in diameter. I plan to form a footer (or deadman, I beleive it's called. You guys sure have odd names for things. I assume it's called deadman because that's the part that's buried in the ground) Anyway, I need to consider that, because the pier is probably the first thing I will actually finish first. I thought I'd make the pier footer up to almost the bottom of the floor joist and then use a Sonotube for the remainder of the pier. I've already ordered one of Dan's pier top plates.
What else do I need to think about? I can't decide on the obs wall height, but I will figure that out later.
Well, I've thrown out some ideas. What do you all think? By the way, I really do appreciate all your ideas. Each and every one of you has given me so much to think about, and I've already learned a lot. Keep 'em coming!!!
One other thing I thought I'd mention. The winds DO come sweepin' down the plains. This site is there because a large blackjack oak tree blew down there and took out 3 large trees with it. It took me 3 years to cut up that sucker!!
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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RobVG
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/09/06
Posts: 740
Loc: Seattle Washington
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So it's 14'x10' Including the obs which is 10'x10'.
I suggest you find a "real" lumber yard (not HomeDepot- Not Lowes) and have them spec your materials. There are span tables you can look up to see what joist/beams you should use, but why not let an expert help you?
So if I remember correctly, the slope runs north/south with the downhill side being north. The 4x10 deck is on the south side?
With a 3' difference in elevation, myself- I'd feel fine in using 4x4 posts but again, ask a professional. They may suggest putting beams across your posts and the joists on top of that. There is usually more than one way to do things and not always one right way.
The PT flooring is good for peace of mind but if you build your roof right and do a good job with the siding, you don't need it. I used 5/8 CDX, 3/4 is better. T&G comply is even better but more $ than CDX.
Quote:
I think the frost line in southern OK is around 7", but we always go at least 18".
Code for my part of the country is 18". I just scratched the dirt a bit because it's hard and put down pier blocks with adjustable brackets- just incase. "Widowmaker" dug holes and poured concrete around the posts. For deck posts in our area, contractors usually put down a 24"x24"x8" cardboard box and fill it with concrete and stick a bracket in it.
Another note, the "Sunset" book on deck building is helpful.
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C11 SGT(XLT)CG-5
Observatory (page 5)
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rodney
Vendor - Explora Dome
Reged: 03/08/05
Posts: 812
Loc: Asbury, NJ
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Quote:
So it's 14'x10' Including the obs which is 10'x10'.
I suggest you find a "real" lumber yard (not HomeDepot- Not Lowes) and have them spec your materials. There are span tables you can look up to see what joist/beams you should use, but why not let an expert help you?
The PT flooring is good for peace of mind but if you build your roof right and do a good job with the siding, you don't need it. I used 5/8 CDX, 3/4 is better. T&G comply is even better but more $ than CDX.
Whoa there a second. I went to what RobVG calls "real" lumber yards when sourcing my lumber. What I found was lacking quality in lumber products and higher prices. What "real lumber" yard would leave there pine outside, exposed to the elements? Since these smaller yards can not buy in quantity they can not offer the same discount pricing Lowe's and Depot offer. Both HD and Lowe's offer contractor and design services. As noted by an earlier poster, Lowe's has a deck design tool on their website. I 100% for a fact know that their commercial sales people are more than willing to help you at your local Lowe's. Also, they offer a quoting service if you feel the price is to high. At Lowe's ask them about "QSP" or maybe "QST". Also, the big box stores will work with you on delivery fees, smaller "real" lumber yards can not afford to. I can appreciate keeping the little guy in business, but if they can not conform to the reality that times are tough and money is tight, then they deserve what happens.
I priced out all my materials via HD, Lowe's, and three independant lumber yards. No one came close to Lowe's prices. My lumber cost was $460, HD wanted $480 (or so), the other 3 were well over $1000.
As far as using PT on the deck and substructure. DO IT 100%. You are not building the Taj Mahal, you are essentially building a covered outdoor shed. Next time you are at Lowe's or HD or anywhere that sells sheds, take a look at the floors in them. PT. Regardless of whether you insulate it or not. It is still going to be exposed to the elements. OSD is ten times better than CDX. Google the differences. Of course nothing will withstand as well as treated. Even OSD and CDX will warp or twist in the elements. Hence why decks are built with PT, or now composite.
Clear skies,
--------------------
Explora Dome information can be found here:
www.exploradome.us
Rodney
Meade 10 SCT
AT 8/F4 imaging scope
13 Truss
C8-NGT
Orion 80mm/F11
Canon 300D
Canon XSi
Two AS-GT mounts
Extremely happy Explora Dome home observatory owner
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Bob Griffiths
Postmaster
Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 6590
Loc: Frederick Maryland
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For some reason I would have thought that the frost line in ny part of Ok would be a lot deeper then 7"... but then again what do I know ..
digging a post hole 18 inches is definitely not hard a normal post hole digger can get down to 24" before you have to expand the diameter of the hole just to open up the handles......and BTW I'll dig after a rain rather then in the middle of a drought any day... ground is much softer.. ...
As for building an obs and worrying about the resale value of the property....?? again I would not worry about that I wanted an observatory. So I built one.. IF I decide to sell the house then I'll worry about the obs, the pool, the 2 detached garages, the detached wood shop, etc....I live for ME and I live for NOW... Just kidding but I really do not even think about resale value etc...I just want a place to do my thing...lol
Bob G.
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CPC1100
Nexstar 8i + GPS & Rays Brackets
Denk S1 power switch
Orion 100 mm Refractor
Meade LXD 55 ...AR-5 127 mm Refractor
Exploradome Observatory S.I.E. (Smiling Irish Eyes)
Gerbring Heated Motorcycle clothing in the winter
39*21'03" N
77*28'12" W
The sky over my head....
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Spoonsize
Vendor/Clothing
Reged: 08/27/04
Posts: 3297
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Roger that, Bob....I figure my OBS reduces the value as far as assessment goes and increases it in regards to resale value....to the tune of about $12,000.00 At least that is what I've been offered to leave it as is when and if I decide to sell it to the interested party. And that does NOT include the telescope and mount.
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Steve Durham
www.margesmonograms.com
(Marge made me do it)
"Nobody get's in to see the WIZARD, Not Nobody, Not Nohow"
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Rob, yes the deck will be 10'x14' with the 14' going north to south (up the hill). The 10'x10' building will be on the north end of the deck. I decided to go with the 4x6 posts because that's what Scott Horstman's BYO plans call for, and I figure he knows more than I do. Also, added strength won't hurt.
There is a Lowe's nearby, and I too have found their prices are a little better that HD, but both places are very helpful. I have a pickup, so I plan on picking up a little lumber at a time. I will go with PT for all the deck, including the obs floor.
I Googled the frost line for southern Ok and it said 7". That seems a little shallow to me, 18" seems better, and if I hold out, 24" would be even better.
So I guess the next thing to do is stake the exact layout and start digging the 8 post holes? Should I go ahead and set the posts in concrete and put the rim boards in place before I start on the pier? It seems to me that if I go ahead and set the rim boards then I'll know how high to make the pier footer. What do you think?
You know, I never thought about an obs increasing the value of the home! You're right-live for now. Who knows what tomorrow may bring!
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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Spoonsize
Vendor/Clothing
Reged: 08/27/04
Posts: 3297
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IMHO, I would dig the holes, put the posts in them, attach the rim boards and square the deck/plumb the posts and then add the concrete. Then, yeah, install the "pier".
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Steve Durham
www.margesmonograms.com
(Marge made me do it)
"Nobody get's in to see the WIZARD, Not Nobody, Not Nohow"
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Thanks, Steve, that's what I was thinking. I've got another question about the pier. How do you figure the size of the pier footer?
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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Spoonsize
Vendor/Clothing
Reged: 08/27/04
Posts: 3297
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That's a good question for rsbfoto...another CN member. You might want to send him a PM and ask. He'll want to know the weight of the mount and scope you plan to use.
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Steve Durham
www.margesmonograms.com
(Marge made me do it)
"Nobody get's in to see the WIZARD, Not Nobody, Not Nohow"
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RobVG
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/09/06
Posts: 740
Loc: Seattle Washington
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Quote:
OSD is ten times better than CDX
In the Seattle area they call "OSD" OSB. It's commonly referred to as "was-wood". Most roof sheathing is OSB but contractors usually put an 18" band of CDX on all edges of the roof because OSB rots when wet. If you leave a piece of OSB out in the (Seattle) weather for a while, you can put your fist through it.
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C11 SGT(XLT)CG-5
Observatory (page 5)
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Trinity Skies
member
Reged: 06/13/07
Posts: 53
Loc: Lewiston, Ca.
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One note about using PT for the decking, although PT doesn't rot it will over time dry out and begin to splinter. You won't be walking on it barefoot. I know about this one from all the docks I have built at work. We now use steel. We have used Trex for the decking on the docks and it does work well. It can get hot though. You might want to use DF for the decking and and paint it or use some kind of water seal on the entire deck structure.
Can you use pier blocks to support the deck and building? I'm not real keen on using the post in ground method. Post in concrete is ok if the post doesn't protrude through the concrete and the base of the concrete has a large enough footprint to reduce settling.
I'm not sure how you plan on doing the floor of the building, but don't put plywood down on the decking, even PT. Water will get between the decking and the plywood and cause problems. The floor of the building should be well thought out to keep water from getting under it.
Mark
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Thanks for your suggestions. I plan to go with the post in the ground, because it just seems more stable to me. This is pretty rocky ground, so I anticipate some setting, but if the house that has been there for 50 years is any indication, I doubt I will still be around to worry about much settling. However, do you think it would be better to put some concrete in the bottom of each hole, let it dry, then put the posts on top of that, and then put more concrete around each post? As far as the deck, my plan is to put the 10'x10' building at one end of the 10'x14' deck. This building will probably have a T&G floor. Before enclosing the building, I will put a water seal on everything. The building sides will come flush to the joist and rim edges on 4 sides to allow water runoff. The 4' of 'slat' type decking will be next to one end of the building with the 'slats' coming to about 1/2" of the edge of the building to allow runoff there. (By DF for the decking, I assume you are referring to douglas fir?) There will also be a space between each 'slat' to allow runoff. Does all this sound reasonable? If time permits, I plan to start digging some of the post holes tomorrow. I won't be setting anything in concrete for awhile, so there is still time to alter my plans. Any and all suggestions and advice are very much appreciated!!
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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RobVG
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/09/06
Posts: 740
Loc: Seattle Washington
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Sounds like you have a good plan Carol. Looking forward to your build
Remember- lot's of pictures!
PS Did you measure the rise and run of your slope?
PSS Quote:
Should I go ahead and set the posts in concrete and put the rim boards in place before I start on the pier?
I think it's been done both ways. I built the pier first but it was a bugger squaring up the post and rim joist and getting the pier centered at the same time. If I did it again, I'd do the framing first and then locate the pier.
Edited by RobVG (09/14/08 01:08 PM)
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Thanks, Rob! I haven't been back to the build site yet to measure the slope. Will be leaving in a little bit to do that. Will take some pics of my progress (or lack of it, depending on how much work time I can get in). Also, I've been rereading Widowmaker's observatory thread (thanks, Widowmaker for your very helpful and informative read!!) and may end up going with BYO's steel pier. If I do, that will change my concrete pier plan. Will have to ponder that. Lots of time to think about that. Anyway, will be back in a couple of days!
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Well I'm back, and you all are going to think I'm nuts, but I've changed my plans AGAIN! When we got to the building site, I was looking at that slope, remembering all the things you all told me, and I was having some serious doubts about building on the slope. Then my husband came outside and I told him what I had in mind. I guess he's decided I'm really serious about this project, so he gave me his advice. He said if I wanted to build on the slope, I should dig into the hill and make a level site. (sound familiar?) If I didn't want to do that, then he suggested I tie the high end of the deck into the hill for stability. But, he said, you should go to the top of the hill, build on a level site, put your deck on concrete blocks and keep the whole thing low to the ground. The problem with the top of the hill was that it put me closer to the trees. He said, no problem; he would help me cut down those trees. He also said not to put the posts into the ground. Then I remembered the heavy treated gate posts we put in concrete at our farm about 10 years ago. They are rotting at the ground. My husband suggested I dig 3 footings at each of 2 ends of the deck,pour the concrete into each footing so that about 2" is above ground level, put bolts into each footing, bolt a 2x6x10 on each end (he call this a sill?) and then nail the 2 ends of the deck frame to the 2x6's. I was going to use 2x8's, but he thought 2x6's would work just as well. So, what do you all think about this plan? I would build at the top of the hill, just build a 10x10 deck for the observatory and not have any outside deck. As you can tell, I'm willing to change my plans. I have a pic of the new site that I will post later. It's just about 10' south (uphill) from the 'hillside' site. When I started looking at the hillside, I really began to see what some of you were telling me about the problems of building on a slope.
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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csa/montana
Wild Spirit
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40276
Loc: montana
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Sounds like a plan; I have one suggestion; I would ask your hubby:
"Honey, could you show me how to do this?  "
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Sounds like a good idea, Carol!! He's good at construction, but his ideas about observatories are questionable. Like, why not put a dome on top of a screened in building. That way you'll have a good cross breeze; or put a bunch of rocks in a hole, top with a little concrete, and instant pier!! 
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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csa/montana
Wild Spirit
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40276
Loc: montana
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Just hand him the tools, & say "Dig here, please"
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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I don't think that would work. He'd just say, "It's good exercise for you, but if you need supervision, I'm your man!"
Changing the subject, here's a pic of the new site. The white stick in the center is where the pier will go.
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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I had a couple of hours this weekend to work on the observatory. I used some stakes and strings to mark it, but I didn't realize how hard it is to make everything square, so I bought a couple of 10' boards and a couple cut to the size of the floor joists and made a box. That was a lot easier. Anyway I got it staked out right and marked the hole placement and managed to dig 3 of the 6 holes. I made them 14" deep. It went along fine until about 12" when I started hitting rocks and clay. After 3 holes, I was worn out, and then I started thinking about that 36" pier hole. I may have to do that in stages. After I got those 3 holes dug, I was proudly showing my work to my hubby, when I realized I was so focused on getting the corners square that I forgot to step back and look at the overall layout. Instead of the building walls looking due east and due north, it's off at an angle. It's not bad, but noticeable. At first, I was going to leave it as is, but now I'm thinking I should realign it all. It would mean redoing 2 holes I've already dug, but I think I'd be happier doing it. I don't think it would take much, just shaving some dirt off one side and back filling a little on the other side. Thinking about digging holes, I've got a question about that pier hole. When I start on that 18" x 36" (dimensions suggested by pier manufacturer) could I dig a little and if the clay gets too hard, put some water in the bottom of the hole and wait awhile before digging some more? The rock will take chipping away at it (fortunately it's sandstone), but I was hoping I could at least soften the clay a bit.
Anyway, here's a picture of the progress I've made so far. I will have to wait until next weekend to do more. I can't wait to get back at it!! This is so exciting for me
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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oldsalt
Astro Philosopher
Reged: 02/12/05
Posts: 8677
Loc: Pa - between starparties
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If the holes are off a little, I would just enlarge them to get your walls lined up the way you want them. If you use a small sono tube for a form, you can back fill after you pour the concrete, rather then trying to do so before hand. It will also give you the room to square everything up properly, and add to the stability. Better the whole be to big and properly spaced then trying to back fill before you pour.
As for the clay/sandstone, clay isn't going to work much easier wet. Just excavate the area for the pier a little at a time. No sense in rushing the job, as you'll be using the observatory for a long time.
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There are no winners in war, only bigger losers.
Jim
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Thanks, Jim!
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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rsbfoto
sage
Reged: 06/10/06
Posts: 341
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Quote:
Thanks, Steve, that's what I was thinking. I've got another question about the pier. How do you figure the size of the pier footer?
Hi Carol,
Sorry to jump in so late. You say you have rock underneath so from my side I think the best is to bond the pier to the rock by drilling a few holes and sticking some rebar into them.
Also try to make a broader base around the rock and then go up with the concrete pier. Just think about a pendulum- Always the heaviest part on the bottom and then lighter as far as you go up.
If you look at my piers the last part eg. the concrete cylinder has maybe 100% more weight then my equipment which is on top.
Here is an image of one of the piers. The equipment up there is about 150pounds and the concrete cylinder is maybe 300 pounds and so on going down to where the pier is buried in the ground. I have aprox 70% of the pier weight lower then 50% of total height.
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regards Rainer
Edited by rsbfoto (09/23/08 12:50 PM)
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Thanks, Rainer, for the explanation and the great pictures. Your observatory is fantastic, and your piers are a work of art!! I've decided to use a steel pier on a concrete base. The concrete will be, at the most, about 10" above ground level. Counting the weight of the steel pier, there will be about 250 pounds on the base, but I would like to allow a possible future increase in weight load. How wide and deep of a base (assuming I don't hit too much rock) do you think I should have for the concrete base? I want it to be stable, so even if I have to chip a few inches at a time, I will go as deep as necessary. It may take awhile, but I want to do it right the first time.
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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rsbfoto
sage
Reged: 06/10/06
Posts: 341
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Hi Carol,
That is not easy to answer. You say your equipment is 250 pounds at the moment and you want to grow ?
How deep do you think are the rocks ?
If you soon hit rock (assuming it is a massive rock bed) while digging you can be happy because then you do not need so much concrete as a base. As I said before just drill some holes into the rock, put rebar in. Make a leveled concrete shoe on the rock on which you can then put your sonotube maybe a piece of 18" in diameter and the height you want to have it stick out from the ground and on the top of this you can put the anchor bolts in order to screw on the steel tube for the mount.
It all depends if you hit rock soon or not.
If not then again it depends of what do you think will be your limit after growing.
Simulate different scenarios and do not take quick decisions. Once the pier is build it is built. Better bigger then to skinny.
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regards Rainer
Edited by rsbfoto (09/24/08 12:28 PM)
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rsbfoto
sage
Reged: 06/10/06
Posts: 341
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Hi Carol,
I found this observatory construction in the Iceinspace.com.au forum.
I think it can help you to pick up some ideas of how to build yours having a slope ...
Down under 1
Down under 2
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regards Rainer
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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That is a nice looking 2 level observatory, Ranier. I decided, however, to move up the hill and make my obs on fairly level ground. It won't affect the southern view much, and actually opens up the northern view a bit. Thanks for the link. I always enjoy seeing what others have done, and it usually gives me some ideas.
I ordered my Exploradome yesterday. Dan, the owner of Exploradome, helped me quite a bit, and he's great to talk to. I told him this was practically a one person build, and he said he would install the dome wheels (for a very small fee) and make sure it moved freely before shipping. It should arrive around the end of October. Yippee!!
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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csa/montana
Wild Spirit
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40276
Loc: montana
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Congratulations Carol! Wow, we are all so excited for you 
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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Pedestal
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/11/06
Posts: 3859
Loc: Smoggy Bottom, Baytown,Texas
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Ok, Carol, enough of this planning stuff, lets see some dirt moving!
Hubert
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Hubert
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www.smoggybottom.org
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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I'm ready to start digging and see something happen. By the way, Hubert, I'm so relieved you and your family are safe after Ike. From what we heard, it sounds like it was/is really bad around the Galveston area.
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Thanks, Carol. I'm so excited. I can't wait to get back down to the site to work some more on it. Hopefully, I can get a little more done this weekend that I did last weekend. Will keep you posted.
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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RobVG
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/09/06
Posts: 740
Loc: Seattle Washington
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Quote:
I'm so excited
Like Carol said, we're all excited for you!
Now get crakin'...
(I love the smell of concrete in the morning  )
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C11 SGT(XLT)CG-5
Observatory (page 5)
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Well, it's been awhile since I last posted. I was able to realign the foundation holes and finish digging the last 3 holes. Again, I was worn out after chipping through the hard soil, but I made it! Next weekend I will start pouring concrete, hopefully. (Can't wait to experience that smell of concrete!!) There is some gravel that was dumped in our back yard years ago. Should I put some in the bottom of each hole? Any recommendations for mixing concrete? I'll be using a wheelbarrow and hoe to mix it.
Even though I only worked on the actual construction for a few hours, last week I visited our local Habitat for Humanity Renovation Station ( I would highly recommend visiting your local Habitat store if there is one near you. If you are willing to sift through the many things, you can often find great buys). I found 2 very small,brand new, vinyl, insulated, double hung windows for a very small price. Then I rummaged through our barn and found a narrow door that will be perfect once I cut it down to size and refinish it. So I've been busy getting ready, but I'm wanting to do more that 'get ready'!
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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mikey cee
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/18/07
Posts: 3530
Loc: bellevue ne.
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If your below frost line a little crushed aggregate for drianage isn't really necessary. The stuff just acts also as a "shock" absorber when the ground swells during freezing by the air spaces or voids in the gravel allowing for expansion instead of raising the footing. If you see Jimmy at the HFH say hi! Mike
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7x35 and 10x50 sears tower binocs, 3" f/10 edmunds reflector, 2.4" f/11.7 manon refractor, 6" f/8 jaegers refractor, "The 8 Ball" 8" f/13.3 brandt refractor, 3" f/15.8 sans&streiffe refractor, 3.1" f/15 selsi refractor(towa 339), 2.4" f/15 sears refractor, selsi 30x30mm spyglass, criterion 5-draw 25x45x75x spyglass(1957), 4.25" f/14.8 tasco 20te.
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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I'm below the frost line, so I guess it's not necessary to add the gravel. That will save a lot of work hauling the gravel up the hill.
Wish I could see Jimmy there at Habitat. I look, but no luck so far!!
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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csa/montana
Wild Spirit
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40276
Loc: montana
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CarolG. We are so proud of the work you are doing!
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Well, once again, it's been awhile since I posted an update. Here's a pic of what I did last weekend. I finally got to pour a little concrete. I got all the foundation posts poured, so next I will start on the deck frame. All boards are already cut, so it's just a matter of putting a few down to get floor height measurements next to the pier. Then it's on to digging that huge pier hole! I was worn out after mixing the concrete for those 6 little post holes. That pier hole gets bigger by the minute.
Speaking of the pier hole, the top of the concrete part of the pier will only be about 6" above ground level. Most of it (18"x18"x36") will be below ground level. Is it still necessary to put rebar in the concrete if most of it is below ground?
Also, completely different subject, but what size electrical conduit should I use going into the obs? I'm not going to wire it now, but I want to have the conduit in place for future use.
I decided to get a steel door with a bolt lock from Exploradome. I was increasingly concerned that a thin wood door was not secure enough. While talking to Tony at Exploradome, I found out the dome is going to be delivered next week. I'd better get busy!!
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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mikey cee
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/18/07
Posts: 3530
Loc: bellevue ne.
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Any scrap steel will suffice for rebar. But if 95% of the pier is below grade your just going through the motions really...in that compact scenario. But steel is cheap and if it makes you sleep better...toss it in there.  Mike
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7x35 and 10x50 sears tower binocs, 3" f/10 edmunds reflector, 2.4" f/11.7 manon refractor, 6" f/8 jaegers refractor, "The 8 Ball" 8" f/13.3 brandt refractor, 3" f/15.8 sans&streiffe refractor, 3.1" f/15 selsi refractor(towa 339), 2.4" f/15 sears refractor, selsi 30x30mm spyglass, criterion 5-draw 25x45x75x spyglass(1957), 4.25" f/14.8 tasco 20te.
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RobVG
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/09/06
Posts: 740
Loc: Seattle Washington
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Quote:
what size electrical conduit should I use going into the obs
Depends on what size and type wire you're going to run and how many bends you have. Most home circuits are 14-2 romex on 15amp breakers which should be more than enough to run a scope and a computer- just don't run your weed eater at the same time if it's plugged into your obs. Here's a little primer on wire types and sizes.
There is a type of wire called underground feeder or 'UF' wire which can be used for direct burial at a depth of 18". I used 12-2 UF and put it in 1" conduit. You can't pull 12-2 through more than one bend- You have to 'stitch' the conduit together first with the wire then glue and assemble the conduit. I don't think pulling 14-2 would be any easier.
Some electricians will tell you not to put romex in conduit (something about temperature). They say you should pull single strand wires. Most people I know put romex in conduit and I used it so no one ever puts a shovel through my wire.
Short answer, what ever you use, use 1" or larger conduit.
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C11 SGT(XLT)CG-5
Observatory (page 5)
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Thanks, Mike and Rob. If I can get away with not using rebar, I will. I remember reading the thread about lightning, and, if I remember correctly, the rebar was an excellent lightning rod underground and a real worry.
That link about home wiring is excellent. The thought of doing the wiring is pretty scary to me. I don't want to do anything that might cause a fire or equipment loss. I'm sure I'll have lots of questions about the wiring, among other things, and I know where I can get help. You all are great to help out!! Many, many thanks!!
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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soreneck
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 04/01/06
Posts: 921
Loc: Toronto, Canada
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Hi Carol,
Just thought I'd add my congratulations to the others' ... you've jumped in with both feet and look to have a great plan! Keep us posted with photos.
Cheers,
Adam
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Adam
WO 110 FLT / WO 66 Triplet
QHY9 / Modified Canon 450D
SkyWatcher EQ-6 Pro
Backyard (urban) roll-off observatory
One small but fearless dog (observing companion)
my astrophotos on flickr
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Pedestal
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/11/06
Posts: 3859
Loc: Smoggy Bottom, Baytown,Texas
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Some thoughts on conduit. 3/4" is fine for one circuit, but 1" might be easier to work with. Are you going to put in any conduit for data runs? Don't forget things like a telephone line, a TV cable, spare runs of Cat5. An extra pull line. Think 1.5"/2".
Hubert
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Hubert
---------------------------------
www.smoggybottom.org
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Thanks, Adam! So far, it's been quite a learning experience, but also a lot of fun, thanks in part to all the great tips and advice you all have given. I'll keep posting pictures as long as I have the strength to hold the camera!
Hubert, I hadn't really thought about data cable, since I have wireless internet and a cordless phone, but while it's all going in, I might as well consider that. I feel pretty comfortable putting in data cable since I hard wired the entire house with cat6 and cable tv, but the electric is a different animal! That really scares me, so I will be asking for help all the way. I'll have to read about electric wiring, since the terms are all foreign to me. I do know what conduit is, but that's about it. Your idea of 1.5/2" conduit is good. By the way what is "an extra pull line"?
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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Rusty
Postmaster
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 17728
Loc: Brooker, FL
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Actually, two conduits, one for power, the other for data, would be better, IMHO.
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N11GPS Fastar
TOA-130S
MK66 Std
Vintage C5
Megrez II 80mm ED Triplet APO
SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II
Sirius EQ-G
ST8XE/CFW-8(LRGBHa)/AO-7/DF-2/STV Dlx/ST237a/350D (Unmodded)/Mallincam Color Hyper Plus/DSI III Color/DSI II Pro
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Maggie and Casey
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
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NeoDinian
Experienced Postmaster
Reged: 10/05/05
Posts: 12730
Loc: Rockford Illinois
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Yeah, don't put Data and Power in the same conduit...
And a Pull line is just what it sounds like... When you fish the wires through, send an extra pull line with them. This line is typically a small nylon stranded cord about the thickness of 18 guage wire. Leaving an extra pull line in the conduit will allow you to pull another line through in the future if needed (And pull another pull-line at that time also.) 
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Neo... (Jeff)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
10" LX200-GPS/SMT UHTC "Draco"
 Rockford, Il.
NeoDinian's Eye on the Sky!
Coming soon:
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Thanks, Rusty. Can the 2 conduits (one for data, one for electric) be next to each other, maybe even touching? Would there be any electrical interference? How many electric lines can you put in each conduit?
Jeff, thanks for the pull line definition. Makes a lot of sense to do that in both electric and data conduits!
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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RobVG
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/09/06
Posts: 740
Loc: Seattle Washington
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Quote:
The thought of doing the wiring is pretty scary to me.
Carol, you shouldn't do any wiring until you've learned enough about it to feel comfortable doing it. At the same time you need to retain a healthy respect for it's potential harm.
When working with existing wiring, you'll never touch a wire without putting a test light on it first to make sure it's dead. There is an easy way to test all your wiring before you turn on the breaker. If you experience a problem, the breaker will trip when you first turn it on- no smoke. You have to understand "grounding".
There are lots of people here that have done their own wiring. You shouldn't have a problem should you decide to DIY.
IMO, the Sunset books on construction are excellent, especially the one on Home Wiring (at least the older edition).
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C11 SGT(XLT)CG-5
Observatory (page 5)
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Rob, you're absolutely right. I've ordered a book (recommended in one of the CN threads) from Amazon and should get it soon. I'll read it from cover to cover, and if in the end I still feel uncomfortable, that is one project I may pay a professional to do. But, at the same time, I would like to do it myself, and feel I can do it once I really understand what to do, and, of course, with a lot of help from you all!
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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Galaxyhunter
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/02/06
Posts: 1255
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Quote:
Can the 2 conduits (one for data, one for electric) be next to each other, maybe even touching? Would there be any electrical interference? How many electric lines can you put in each conduit?
Carol, I have two conduit in the same trench. The trench is roughly 50 yard long. I have no electrical interference at all as I noramaly run my imaging from inside the house.
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Carl
My lousy skies at Hawkeye Observatory
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Pedestal
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/11/06
Posts: 3859
Loc: Smoggy Bottom, Baytown,Texas
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"Trot line" (fishing) cord is about right for a spare pull cord. If it's not strong enough to pull with, you can use it to pull a larger/stronger pull cord thru the conduit. Just one of the little "gotchas" you don't want to forget.
Hubert
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Hubert
---------------------------------
www.smoggybottom.org
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Rusty
Postmaster
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 17728
Loc: Brooker, FL
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Quote:
Thanks, Rusty. Can the 2 conduits (one for data, one for electric) be next to each other, maybe even touching? Would there be any electrical interference? How many electric lines can you put in each conduit?
The conduits should be as far apart as possible. Local code will specify how deep the power lines have to be (18" is common); there is normally no spec for homeowners' data or phone cables, but I'd go not less than 8". The data/phone conduits can be separated from the power by a few inches of dirt after burying the power.
I assume the book you're getting contains the National Electrical Code, which specifies the size (gage) of wire needed for particular current draws (and the recommended maximum runs without undue voltage drop for each size). It never hurts to go oversize with the wire, as you may want to add things later.
The Code also specifies the number and size of conductors allowed in a particular size of conduit. In most cases, one can stuff enough conductors into a conduit to make it hard to pull. Just go oversized on the conduit. All you will need is four wires (2 hot, 1 neutral, 1 ground giving you 240 volts, which can be split into two 120V legs) for power - originate the observatory circuits with a small breaker box in the observatory. The feed from the house will go into your main breaker panel, protected by a breaker.
If you are unfamiliar with connection or concerned about doing it yourself, you can run the wires, install the observatory breaker box, run the wire internally to the outlet boxes (a/k/a "jiffy boxes"), and have someone familiar with wiring make connections to the breaker boxes and outlets.
But it ain't rocket science - it's just a set of standards in the Code, for safety and trouble-free operation.
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N11GPS Fastar
TOA-130S
MK66 Std
Vintage C5
Megrez II 80mm ED Triplet APO
SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II
Sirius EQ-G
ST8XE/CFW-8(LRGBHa)/AO-7/DF-2/STV Dlx/ST237a/350D (Unmodded)/Mallincam Color Hyper Plus/DSI III Color/DSI II Pro
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Maggie and Casey
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
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RobVG
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/09/06
Posts: 740
Loc: Seattle Washington
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Hey Rusty
Just wondering, do you bring in 240 in anticipation of an AC unit?
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C11 SGT(XLT)CG-5
Observatory (page 5)
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Rusty, this is the book I ordered. Hope it has all that I need. Link
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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Rusty
Postmaster
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 17728
Loc: Brooker, FL
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Quote:
Hey Rusty
Just wondering, do you bring in 240 in anticipation of an AC unit?
Not necessarily. A sub-panel, such would be installed in an observatory would probably have several circuits. Input to the sub would be 2x120V (180° out-of-phase), a neutral, and a ground. This provides 2 legs of 120V across the 120V and neutral, and 240V across both 120V legs. Power panels are "balanced" when the anticipated load for the 2 120V legs is about equal.
Quote:
Rusty, this is the book I ordered. Hope it has all that I need. Link
That should do it for most of your needs. The people in most home improvement centers have access to specific info on conduit and wire size if the book doesn't cover it.
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N11GPS Fastar
TOA-130S
MK66 Std
Vintage C5
Megrez II 80mm ED Triplet APO
SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II
Sirius EQ-G
ST8XE/CFW-8(LRGBHa)/AO-7/DF-2/STV Dlx/ST237a/350D (Unmodded)/Mallincam Color Hyper Plus/DSI III Color/DSI II Pro
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Maggie and Casey
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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I didn't get much done today. The weather was damp and drizzling most of the time. However, I did get the sonotube removed and filled dirt around the posts. Hopefully, next time I can get started with the floor and the pier hole. This is what it looks like now.
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Oh, and by the way, look what showed up at my house today.
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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csa/montana
Wild Spirit
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40276
Loc: montana
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Quote:
Oh, and by the way, look what showed up at my house today.
Carol, Congratulations! Wow, your dream is getting closer & closer! My cap's certainly off to you, for tackling this job by yourself!
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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Scott K
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1410
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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Quote:
Oh, and by the way, look what showed up at my house today.
Now that is a beautiful sight, Carol! You are going to thoroughly enjoy having a dome!
By the way, I forget whether or not you mentioned this, but are you planning to motorize / automate the dome?
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Thanks, Carol. I'm so excited, I can hardly think of anything else!!
Scott,I know I will love being able to just go outside and have everything all set up. I bought the motor to rotate the dome, and as funds allow, I will eventually get the software to automatically track with it.
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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Scott K
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/13/07
Posts: 1410
Loc: Dallas, TX & Eufaula, OK
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One nice thing is that there are several automation systems for domes, so you don't have to feel pressured to use the system from ED. (Although I don't know why you wouldn't - just saying that having choices is nice.)
How tall will your roof be? I'd think opening the slot by hand will either be no big deal, or super annoying after a while, depending on the height. In my case, it wasn't an option at all - I physically can not open my shutter alone - it takes about 3 people to do it, so I had to have it motorized.
Anyway, as long as the shutter is no big deal, having the dome motorized, but manually operated is perfectly fine for visual use. Really you don't need to automate it unless you are doing astrophotography, although it sure is nice to have it track the scope - no question about that.
I'm really happy you are making progress. I'm anxiously awaiting the results! (Like everybody else here!  )
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rodney
Vendor - Explora Dome
Reged: 03/08/05
Posts: 812
Loc: Asbury, NJ
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Carol,
Congrats on getting your dome. I agree with Scott regarding your automation options. As you are aware I have been researching off the shelf plug and play units for some time now. I personally run the Lesvesdome driver using a Velleman K USB board. For some months now it has ran great. Tracking is incredible. The shutter doors are motorized and I am in the progress of automating them also, it is simply a matter of finding the time to finish the project.
Technical Innovations makes a really cool IR sensor tracking system that works of the scope facing the slot of the dome and tracking via IR signals. Cyanogen makes the Maxdome system which will work but requires two boards to automate the shutters. (a little costly) The option that Explora Dome is working on is all inclusive. Plug and Play USB driven.
If you need help down the road working up an automation system for your ED let me know off list. PM or message me on the group.
Clear skies,
--------------------
Explora Dome information can be found here:
www.exploradome.us
Rodney
Meade 10 SCT
AT 8/F4 imaging scope
13 Truss
C8-NGT
Orion 80mm/F11
Canon 300D
Canon XSi
Two AS-GT mounts
Extremely happy Explora Dome home observatory owner
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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I really hope to fully automate someday. I know a lot of options are out there, and I just need time to learn about it. Dan at ED has been great to work with, and I will probably lean towards the program made for the ED, but, as I said, I want to study all my options first. There's a lot to learn, and I'm looking forward to it. Of course, I will come here for help, as I know I will need it.
Scott, the ED comes with a rope assembly that apparently makes opening the shutter very easy.
Rodney, thanks for the offer to help via PM. I will be anxious to hear how your shutter automation project goes.
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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I was reading the thread on floor covering, and I was wondering about moisture in the dome. Before I put the wood flooring down, should I lay some type of moisture barrier over the floor joists and then the wood flooring on top of that? If so, what type of material would you recommend?
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 1840
Loc: AR
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The plastic sheeting (4 or 6-mil) moisture barrier should go under the floor joists, either against them or on the ground. If you put it under the floor, but on top of the joists, it could trap moisture between the ground and plastic and rot the joists.
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Rusty
Postmaster
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 17728
Loc: Brooker, FL
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Using pressure-treated lumber for the joists may be worthwhile; in many cases it's no more $$$ than untreated.
However, I'd also consider not using a moisture barrier at all, since the deck and joists will be above-grade.
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N11GPS Fastar
TOA-130S
MK66 Std
Vintage C5
Megrez II 80mm ED Triplet APO
SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II
Sirius EQ-G
ST8XE/CFW-8(LRGBHa)/AO-7/DF-2/STV Dlx/ST237a/350D (Unmodded)/Mallincam Color Hyper Plus/DSI III Color/DSI II Pro
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Maggie and Casey
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
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Chris Schroeder
Postmaster
Reged: 12/11/04
Posts: 6563
Loc: N.E. WI Sky Glow
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Congratulations on the great looking dome Carol!
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Chris
Mallincam Color Hyper Plus
10" DSH with SC DSC, CPC 800 XLT
M110 Doublet ED, AT 102Achro, ZS80FD 10th Anniv, ZS66SD, PST
CG5-AGT, EZ-Touch, Voyager
POD XL3 http://POD.SchroederCity.com
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WidowMaker
Catchy Title
Reged: 12/29/07
Posts: 1095
Loc: Frankfort, Ky
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Congrats, Carol!
Looking Great!
One thing though:
Dont let your husband see the pics in my observatory thread of my wife working her heart out! 
She said something the other day about how now that shes built an observatory, shell never be able to get out of hard work with me again. 
You should have seen her just a month or so ago, lying in the floor of the observatory, pouring over the paperwork for our brand new G11 mount. I got the 'youd better be taking hubble shots that make me pass out from awe..' treatment over that one.
Now when the SBIG camera gets here i already know not to bother her with silly questions like 'how does this work', 'that look right to ya?', 'should there be spare parts?', or 'does this mount and camera make me look fat?'
Ladies rock!
um
Sorry...rambling.
You go, Carol!
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Sleep is the Cousin of Death
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Thanks, Michael!! I've read and re-read your thread about your obs, and that's what inspired me to build mine. Personally, I think you were spoofing all of us into thinking you'd never done construction before. Yours and your wife's work look professional! You both are an inspiration to us all on what hard work and determination can do. When you get that new mount and camera going, I want to see those 'hubble' photos you both have taken.
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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Rusty
Postmaster
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 17728
Loc: Brooker, FL
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You've been BUSY! 
--------------------
N11GPS Fastar
TOA-130S
MK66 Std
Vintage C5
Megrez II 80mm ED Triplet APO
SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II
Sirius EQ-G
ST8XE/CFW-8(LRGBHa)/AO-7/DF-2/STV Dlx/ST237a/350D (Unmodded)/Mallincam Color Hyper Plus/DSI III Color/DSI II Pro
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Maggie and Casey
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
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WidowMaker
Catchy Title
Reged: 12/29/07
Posts: 1095
Loc: Frankfort, Ky
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Why thank ya, Carol! What a very nice thing to say, im honored.
And I promise, my lack of building skills was authentic!
As far as those Hubble shots go....perhaps I can just print real Hubble shots from the observatory then run in going 'look what I did!'... 
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Sleep is the Cousin of Death
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Can't wait to see those photos!! I really didn't think you were 'spoofing' us; I hope you didn't think I was serious when I said that. But I really did mean it when I said your work was outstanding. My hat is off to both you and your wife!!
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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WidowMaker
Catchy Title
Reged: 12/29/07
Posts: 1095
Loc: Frankfort, Ky
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Naw, didnt think that at all, Carol.
Thanks again for your kindness, you made our day!
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Sleep is the Cousin of Death
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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I managed to get a little work done yesterday. I got the sill board bolted to the concrete supports, the deck frame screwed together and a couple of floor joists installed. All that went well. Here's a pic of what I did. It's not a good shot, but you can get an idea.
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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CarolG
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/16/06
Posts: 829
Loc: Oklahoma
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Then I moved on to the pier hole. I got the hole started and managed to dig 2 feet down before I got so tired I couldn't lift the post hole digger. Here's where I ran into problems. As you can see by the picture, on the right side is a huge rock. So far, 2 feet down, I haven't come to the underside of the rock, and I have no idea how far out it goes (don't want to have to find out either!). Should I get a sledge hammer and try to break it up? Could I just leave it there and pour the concrete around it? What do you all think I should do? I can't move the pier location at this point.
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Carol
Cor Caroli Observatory
NS11 XLT w/ HyperStar
TV85 w/FeatherTouch/DM4/SC on a Scopebuggy
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Bob Griffiths
Postmaster
Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 6590
Loc: Frederick Maryland
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Carol:
I would just pour concrete around that rock... if you want to get fancy and drill a hole in the rock to insert a re bar go ahead...BUT to be honest I would not even bother ...
Bob G.
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CPC1100
Nexstar 8i + GPS & Rays Brackets
Denk S1 power switch
Orion 100 mm Refractor
Meade LXD 55 ...AR-5 127 mm Refractor
Exploradome Observatory S.I.E. (Smiling Irish Eyes)
Gerbring Heated Motorcycle clothing in the winter
39*21'03" N
77*28'12" W
The sky over my head....
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Pedestal
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/11/06
Posts: 3859
Loc: Smoggy Bottom, Baytown,Texas
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I'd leave the rock alone, and dig out the hole a bit "extra" to get the mass of concrete you're planning on having underground. The underground part of the concrete does not have to be straight up and down.
Hubert
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Hubert
---------------------------------
www.smoggybottom.org
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