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Equipment Discussions >> Observatories

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Wmacky
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 11/24/07

Loc: Florida
Getting bummed out. Another permit thread.
      #5632063 - 01/19/13 07:15 PM

Well as my year long project comes to a close, I find myself sinking into a depression. You see, there are no permits. The project started as a rehab of an existing OB that I transported to my new home from my previous residence. I couldn't get a straight answer as to how this should be permitted, but was told that being Florida, The roof would have to meet strict engineering standard for hurricane force winds. That wasn't going to happen, as this was an old structure I built when I was 20 many years ago.

I decided to forgo permitting. I wasn't that concerned as I would just burn the thing to the ground if needed. But, then I started to desire upgrades, then A warm room seemed like a good Idea. Well as one thing led to another, and I now have multiple thousands invested, and hundreds upon hundreds of hours of labor.

With just a few items left, I find I'm lacking the drive to finish the project......

I wish my county allowed non permitted structures below a certain size like most of you guys. They want a permit on every structure, even a dog house. This is why very few accessory buildings get permitted in this county.

I probably have nothing to be concerned about. All my neighbors have tons of buildings without permits. Tool sheds, Giant green houses, RV ports, Wood shops. None are permitted! If I go down, there will be a ton of people with me.

Still it bugs me......

Edited by Wmacky (01/19/13 07:20 PM)


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1965healy
The Snarkster
*****

Reged: 06/23/07

Loc: San Antonio, TX
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: Wmacky]
      #5632203 - 01/19/13 08:53 PM

Trying to dodge the permit bullet seems to be a common goal and practice. Those of us who can manage by staying under a certain square footage do it routinely. Those, like you, who don't have that option either spend the money on permits or just press forward and pray they're not found out by the code inspectors or turned in by a nasty neighbor. Most of the time I think folks "get away" with building w/o a permit. It would be irresponsible for me to suggest that avoiding the permitting process is a good idea.

A a "good citizen" I understand why the process is in place. It will hopefully prevent the building of unsafe structures, discourage folks from adapting sheds into unsafe housing and cut down on the inclination of some folks to build outlandish eyesores that impact neighborhoods in a negative way. They're meant to keep your noisy neighbor from putting his party palace/hot tub right on the property line outside your bedroom window or turning storage sheds into "affordable" housing that burns down when someone tries to heat it using 3 cheap extension cords daisy chained together attached to a 1500 watt space heater. There really is a good reason for building codes.

Having said that, we are a bit weird to some folks. An observatory in a backyard doesn't make sense to most municipalities. It's outside their realm of experience. The more "normal" you can make it seem to them the better. A set of plans gives your building "legitimacy", and wiring schematics etc a sense that things will be safe. It also keeps your insurance company happy and more inclined to cover you in case of a loss. Trying to explain to them why you had thousands of dollars with og gear in a "homemade shed" in your yard if the roof blows off, the building burns down or someone steals your stuff can be a hard sell.

Most of us like our privacy, hate the chance of increasing our property taxes and resent paying fees that seem excessive for a space to enjoy a hobby. The truth is "ya gotta pay to play" sometimes. If you can avoid fees and inspections by keeping a smaller footprint that may be the way to go. If you have to be permitted no matter what perhaps you can try to "stage" the build so that you add the warm room later after the inspector buys off the observatory. As for a hurricane rated roof I'd touch base with BYO, they may have drawings that meet that requirement.

In any case try not to let the obstacles overwhelm you.


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Christopher EricksonModerator
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/08/06

Loc: Waikoloa Village, Hawaii
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: 1965healy]
      #5632236 - 01/19/13 09:19 PM

It has been my experience that coming up with a set of plans with a structural engineer or architect's stamp on them almost always turns the entire permitting process into a breeze.

I have always had the best luck getting the structural engineering stamp by looking around for a young, open-minded, self-employed engineer to work with. Usually at the best rates too.

Municipal bureaucrats are much more likely to lock horns with homeowners than they are with professional engineers, who can often quote building codes from memory.

I hope this helps.


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Wmacky
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 11/24/07

Loc: Florida
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: Christopher Erickson]
      #5632331 - 01/19/13 10:18 PM

Karen, I'm afraid I was too vague. All those option are no longer open to me as the Observatory is now complete. Just crying over spilled milk here.....

What brought this on is the fact that the OB turned out nicer than planned ( and much, much more expensive.) The thought that I may have to tear it down one day is keeping me from really being happy with the completion. If I every did have to do that, it would wrap me up from continuing the hobby.

I guess I'll have to get over it.

Edited by Wmacky (01/19/13 10:26 PM)


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: Wmacky]
      #5632389 - 01/19/13 10:49 PM

Quote:

The thought that I may have to tear it down one day is keeping me from really being happy with the completion. If I every did have to do that, it would wrap me up from continuing the hobby.

I guess I'll have to get over it.





One cannot stop enjoying things because of what "might" happen down the road. Enjoy your observatory to the fullest now, while you are healthy and have the time. If something has to be done in the future, work with it, & don't give up.


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1965healy
The Snarkster
*****

Reged: 06/23/07

Loc: San Antonio, TX
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5632394 - 01/19/13 10:54 PM

Then by all means get out and enjoy it now. As Carol said don't let what might (or might not) happen keep you from enjoying the now.

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Christopher EricksonModerator
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/08/06

Loc: Waikoloa Village, Hawaii
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: Wmacky]
      #5632549 - 01/20/13 01:27 AM

Quote:

Karen, I'm afraid I was too vague. All those option are no longer open to me as the Observatory is now complete. Just crying over spilled milk here.....

What brought this on is the fact that the OB turned out nicer than planned ( and much, much more expensive.) The thought that I may have to tear it down one day is keeping me from really being happy with the completion. If I every did have to do that, it would wrap me up from continuing the hobby.

I guess I'll have to get over it.




It still isn't too late to get a set of plans made up with an engineering stamp.

That usually halts any attempt to make you dismantle your observatory.

I hope that helps.


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rimcrazy
sage


Reged: 03/03/12

Loc: Overgaard, AZ
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: Wmacky]
      #5632791 - 01/20/13 09:29 AM

In addition to using glass to look at the heavens, I am a fused glass artist. I built a studio addition on to my garage a few years back. My garage is detached and has power and even plumbing sporting a nice bathroom. At the time there was no sheetrock in the inside structure. The code, where it is located, dictated I must "Finish" the garage before they would let me add an addition. So I had to get the interior insulated and sheetrocked and painted before they would let me proceed to tear out a 10'x12' section of the wall to let me add my addition. Yea..... I had to finish it so I could destroy it. Bureaucracy at it's best.

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Midnight Dan
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/23/08

Loc: Hilton, NY, Yellow Zone (Bortl...
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: rimcrazy]
      #5632896 - 01/20/13 10:19 AM

Karen:

Quote:

A a "good citizen" I understand why the process is in place. It will hopefully prevent the building of unsafe structures ...




That's the way I felt about it until a recent run in with our building inspector. I've been living in my location for nearly 30 years and in all our building/remodeling projects have done everything by the book. But when we went in to get a permit to build a small storage shed/pavilion near our pond, everything went sideways.

For some reason, the inspector decided to look through all of our records. There was an inspection record missing from a barn we built 20 years ago and he decided we needed to get a new inspection - including digging up the property to inspect the foundation! I had to hire a lawyer and spend thousands to find out that he basically answers to no one and can do whatever he wants. After getting copies of our records from the town, I discovered that there was an inspection record from someone else's property in my files! Obviously the town was having trouble keeping track of their inspection records and I had to pay for it!

What about the shed we wanted to build? He told us we needed to dig a 4 foot deep foundation to be below the frost line - for an 8' x 12' storage shed! This would have cost a fortune. In the end, I spent hours of my own time pouring through the arcane, online codes for New York state to find out he was just plain wrong.

Quote:

Most of us like our privacy, hate the chance of increasing our property taxes and resent paying fees that seem excessive for a space to enjoy a hobby.




I didn't have problems with any of those issues. I resent having to spend thousands of dollars at the whim of some town official that is apparently out of control, answers to no one and can do whatever he pleases.

My take-away from all this is to do whatever I can to avoid the inspector in the future.

-Dan


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opticsguy
sage


Reged: 02/02/09

Loc: Washington State
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: rimcrazy]
      #5632901 - 01/20/13 10:22 AM

Building codes make a lot of sense to protect all of us from wreckless and irresponsibly designed strutures.

On the other side, each inspector has an attitude often in conflict with any common sense or courtesy.

A building permit to build a residence in my city is running around $45,000 not an exageration, and all this for mostly paperwork and beurocracy.


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: Midnight Dan]
      #5632906 - 01/20/13 10:27 AM

Quote:

I resent having to spend thousands of dollars at the whim of some town official that is apparently out of control, answers to no one and can do whatever he pleases.





Someone hired or appointed him, since you had to hire an attorney anyway; might it not be the time to take this up with the town officials, perhaps with a news reporter sitting in? Everyone has to answer to someone; it just may not be obvious, who that is.


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5632978 - 01/20/13 11:02 AM

Per the original thread, the reason for the hurricane wind protection isn't an unreasonable desire for every garden implement to be safe from hurricanes. The reason is examination of the results of major storms showed major structures able to withstand the winds were being badly damaged by debris from minor buildings and such coming apart and producing dangerous wind-driven debris. Upshot- if you don't permit and your building wrecks your neighbors' houses, don't be surprised to be on the receiving end of lawsuits.

Get an engineer and get a little "Hurricane preparedness improvement" project to get a permit for and get your tail end covered.

-Rich


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Midnight Dan
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/23/08

Loc: Hilton, NY, Yellow Zone (Bortl...
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5633082 - 01/20/13 12:14 PM

Quote:

Someone hired or appointed him, since you had to hire an attorney anyway; might it not be the time to take this up with the town officials, perhaps with a news reporter sitting in? Everyone has to answer to someone; it just may not be obvious, who that is.




The building inspector in our town has no specific "supervisor". He works for the town board. In a small town, all these guys know one another and back each other up. There's no accountability there.

Our lawyer basically told us that if we wanted to fight this, it would cost many tens of thousands in legal fees and we could lose anyway. If the stakes were high enough and someone is willing to spend the time, effort, and money, it could make sense to try to fight these things. But for the average person, the costs are too high for it to be worthwhile and the building inspector knows this. So when dealing with us average citizens, in effect the building inspector answers to no one.

-Dan


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Orion58
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 10/28/11

Loc: Southern Wisconsin
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5633326 - 01/20/13 02:23 PM

Quote:

One cannot stop enjoying things because of what "might" happen down the road. Enjoy your observatory to the fullest now, while you are healthy and have the time. If something has to be done in the future, work with it, & don't give up.




Carol is absolutely correct..I can't add anything more. Enjoy!


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bogg
super member


Reged: 11/17/09

Loc: Bruce County Ontario
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: Orion58]
      #5633370 - 01/20/13 02:51 PM

I agree, enjoy now, if a day comes and they are not happy with it, You can deal with it then. As for building inspectors, in our area an engineer trumps the building inspector all of the time as they are not engineers, go figure.

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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. *DELETED* new [Re: bogg]
      #5634812 - 01/21/13 12:04 PM

Post deleted by Starhawk

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mikey cee
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/18/07

Loc: bellevue ne.
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5634921 - 01/21/13 12:58 PM Attachment (24 downloads)

Oh I got permits alright. I always do. I just try not say any morer than I have to. I've had half a dozen inspectors at our house in the past. The last two inspectors were for the permit itself and the deck post footings before concrete. Their jaws dropped when they saw what I'd done. The footing inspector signed off the final before I was even close to finishing the deck. The inspector told me you obviously know what you are doing when I opened my motorized observatory roofs. His final parting words were I've seen enough have a giood day. Mike

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Scott Horstman
Vendor - Backyard Observatories
*****

Reged: 03/11/04

Loc: Here, There and Everywhere
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: Wmacky]
      #5635009 - 01/21/13 01:45 PM

If the building not being permitted becomes an issue with the building department shoot me an e-mail. I have an architect that I work with in Miami-Dade. I can send you a pdf as well of one that we did in Acadia that has somewhat of a detail on how we have to do the roof tie down system, which is key for us to get permits down there. The rest is just standard FL junk like the HTT5 wall straps etc.

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Wmacky
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 11/24/07

Loc: Florida
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5635539 - 01/21/13 06:56 PM

Quote:

Bad advice. Florida actually has hurricanes.

I do not live in a hurricane prWhen it's three days out from a storm, it's too late to get reinforced and permitted. I used to live on the Gulf coast- my home took ten feet of water in Katrina 4 months after I moved to Tucson. Don't blow this off as an arcane legal issue- it isn't.

-Rich




DELETE


Bad Idea to post when in a bad mood....

Thanks for that offer Scott.

Edited by Wmacky (01/21/13 07:23 PM)


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Scott Horstman
Vendor - Backyard Observatories
*****

Reged: 03/11/04

Loc: Here, There and Everywhere
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: Wmacky]
      #5635654 - 01/21/13 08:18 PM

Not a problem. And take the "expert" opinions in this forum with a grain of salt.

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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: Scott Horstman]
      #5640135 - 01/24/13 07:51 AM

How many backyard observatories have been through catagory 3 or greater hurricanes?

-Rich


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1965healy
The Snarkster
*****

Reged: 06/23/07

Loc: San Antonio, TX
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5640271 - 01/24/13 09:40 AM

Quote:

How many backyard observatories have been through catagory 3 or greater hurricanes?

-Rich



Perhaps the question might be more apt if it were possible to determine
1. The type of structure ROR vs Dome
2. Type of plans used; based on professional plans or dawings or the modification of some other structure..
3. The degree of damage if any based on local wind speed vs those factors.


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Scott Horstman
Vendor - Backyard Observatories
*****

Reged: 03/11/04

Loc: Here, There and Everywhere
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5640451 - 01/24/13 11:14 AM

Quote:

How many backyard observatories have been through catagory 3 or greater hurricanes?

-Rich




I've had no reports of structural failure.

Several of our builds were in the paths of Charley, Ike, Sandy. I believe we only had 1 near the path of Katrina at the time, in Galvaston, though the remnants hit several. No problems.

Also that nasty nor-easter that hit MA a few years ago with 90 MPH winds, no damage reported other than some missing siding.


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1965healy
The Snarkster
*****

Reged: 06/23/07

Loc: San Antonio, TX
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: Scott Horstman]
      #5640674 - 01/24/13 01:18 PM

Thanks Scott! I was curious. No problems with mine and it sits on top my garage in winds that have had gusts of 70mph. Barely had any dust blow in, or maybe it all blew out. Either way no problems.

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Mary B
Vendor - Echo Astronomy and Electronics
*****

Reged: 05/21/10

Loc: Minnesota
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: 1965healy]
      #5641115 - 01/24/13 05:32 PM

Mine has survived 95mph straight line winds with no issues. Didn't even get any water inside.

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roscoe
curmudgeon
*****

Reged: 02/04/09

Loc: NW Mass, inches from VT
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: Mary B]
      #5641978 - 01/25/13 06:21 AM

A concern I have is that some smaller observatories that are built on top of concrete blocks or pads, the whole building could blow away in a big enough wind. Probably the scope pier would keep one in place, but something to think about, particularly with small structures. Mine, being small, relatively light weight, and in an open field, has four smaller concrete footing piers in the corners that it is bolted to, so wind won't get under it and lift it.
Russ


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: roscoe]
      #5642125 - 01/25/13 08:51 AM

My main concern is the op started with an apparent realization his construction quality wasn't good enough to get a modern permit in an area where it isn't actually a legal issue. If BYO has a tested design, it may be a very different animal, where getting an honest permit means structural upgrades. The op should expect the observatory will eventually be tested by the real thing.

-Rich


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: roscoe]
      #5642289 - 01/25/13 10:30 AM

Quote:

A concern I have is that some smaller observatories that are built on top of concrete blocks or pads, the whole building could blow away in a big enough wind. Probably the scope pier would keep one in place, but something to think about, particularly with small structures. Mine, being small, relatively light weight, and in an open field, has four smaller concrete footing piers in the corners that it is bolted to, so wind won't get under it and lift it.
Russ




My 10'x10' is just sitting on concrete footings. It has been in 70mph & higher gusts with absolutely no problems.


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Mary B
Vendor - Echo Astronomy and Electronics
*****

Reged: 05/21/10

Loc: Minnesota
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5642983 - 01/25/13 05:04 PM

Mine is sitting on wood bunkers, not bolted down at all. Being low to the ground helps keep wind out from under it. You can always add a ground skirt too.

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Gargoyle
sage
*****

Reged: 03/13/08

Loc: Long Island, New York
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: Mary B]
      #5643451 - 01/25/13 10:04 PM

My 11' x 15' BYO (on concrete footings) shrugged Sandy off like it was nothing. I went into the building to get extension cords while Sandy was doing what she did (at 70 mph + at that point) and there was no roof rattle or any noise. Felt safer in the shed than I did in my house....

Jerry


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stmguy
sage


Reged: 10/11/12

Loc: Western NH
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: Gargoyle]
      #5643963 - 01/26/13 08:42 AM

During the hurricane of '38 my parents house got blown right over (no one was living in it at the time) . A neighbor helped to right it with block and tackles. Nice to have good neighbors. House was OK, just imagine , this was before permits and building codes and the like of course nowadays the house would have been anchored down
Norm


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Wmacky
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 11/24/07

Loc: Florida
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: stmguy]
      #5646599 - 01/27/13 06:17 PM

Update:

But first about hurricanes -

Although anything is always possible, I do not live in a area of Florida prone to these storms. As a matter of fact I've lived all 48 years of my life here, and have never seen, experienced, or had any damage due to a hurricanes! New York is more prone to hurricanes than my county.

NO, My real concern is being told by the permitting department that I must destroy the building with no option to comply. THis is my only concern.

I've talked to the county, and I now feel that it would be a mistake, and a huge risk to try to permit it after the fact. I'll just have to deal with the issue if it every comes up. Hopefully they will work with me to avoid tearing the structure down. I see no reason to take that risk until I have to if ever. I don't have much risk up upset neighbors. I see the guy behind me just had another greenhouse moved in. this make about 6 large unpermitted structures with 150' of mine.


Anyway, I said what the hell, bought the last of the materials I needed, and completed the observatory today. All is complete except carpeting. In a couple weeks I will be posting a pictorial tour of the completed restoration, and you will then see why I have been bummed about have it demolished. It truly is a dream setup for me....

Edited by Wmacky (01/27/13 06:24 PM)


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: Wmacky]
      #5646654 - 01/27/13 06:38 PM

Quote:

Anyway, I said what the hell, bought the last of the materials I needed, and completed the observatory today. All is complete except carpeting. In a couple weeks I will be posting a pictorial tour of the completed restoration, and you will then see why I have been bummed about have it demolished. It truly is a dream setup for me....





As I mentioned earlier; enjoy what you have, now; rather than worrying about what "might" happen in the future. You will have many enjoyable hours in your observatory, so start enjoying!


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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: Scott Horstman]
      #5652760 - 01/30/13 04:53 PM

The way I understand it, is, if the building is not "up to code", if you sell, the buyer has the option of 1) asking you to bring it up to code (your answer-next customer); 2) accepting it "as is" (most likely, if not, see #1); or 3) asking you to remove it. Outside of that, I don't see a problem, unless you've sunk thousands into it and THEN decide it time to sell...Guess you have two options then 1) Options 1-3 above, or 2) Move it to the new place (again).

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Glen A W
sage


Reged: 07/04/08

Loc: WEST VIRGINIA USA
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5654977 - 01/31/13 08:09 PM

I used to live in a town which was obsessed with building permits and code enforcement. Eventually they hired a police officer to handle it. I did not have much trouble with it but I observed that the permit process was highly political, as some people could get permits for the most ridiculous projects - such as combining two houses next door to each other into one sick looking monster - while others couldn't get papers on an 8x12 outbuilding.

I am glad I now live 10 miles from the nearest incorporated area. It is up to me to make sure things are as they should be, and I try to do the best I can.

I would be nervous if I lived in Florida too, but because of the risk of neighbors making trouble more than anything. In my old town, you only had worries about these sorts of things if your neighbors disliked you. If somebody moves in next door and proves to be a psycho, then I can tell you that complaints to the municipality are just about the number-1 technique of the modern neighborhood troublemaker.

GW


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: Glen A W]
      #5655938 - 02/01/13 09:43 AM

There is no part of Florida not prone to hurricanes; just a few spots they haven't laid waste to recently. The house I had destroyed in Katrina had been high, dry, and undamaged since 1937, was above sea level, and surrounded by trees, some of which had been there for a century and survived 85mph winds. They got blown over and the brick house got moved off its foundation. 10' of water finished the job.

70 mph winds aren't hurricane force, and are fairly commonly experienced just about everywhere.

But I see complacency, too, is a force of nature. It'll be a little late to get squared away when you're ordered to evacuate. But you had better believe you neighbors' insurance adjuster will ask them, "Do you know of a nearby building this piece we found in your living room came from?"

Good luck. You're leaning a whole lot more on it than I've been able to.

-Rich


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Wmacky
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Reged: 11/24/07

Loc: Florida
Re: Getting bummed out. Another permit thread. new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5659182 - 02/03/13 12:22 AM

Quote:

There is no part of Florida not prone to hurricanes; just a few spots they haven't laid waste to recently. The house I had destroyed in Katrina had been high, dry, and undamaged since 1937, was above sea level, and surrounded by trees, some of which had been there for a century and survived 85mph winds. They got blown over and the brick house got moved off its foundation. 10' of water finished the job.

70 mph winds aren't hurricane force, and are fairly commonly experienced just about everywhere.

But I see complacency, too, is a force of nature. It'll be a little late to get squared away when you're ordered to evacuate. But you had better believe you neighbors' insurance adjuster will ask them, "Do you know of a nearby building this piece we found in your living room came from?"

Good luck. You're leaning a whole lot more on it than I've been able to.

-Rich




Thanks again for your expert opinion......

Carol, Can you close this thread for me. I'd hate to see that dead horse get beat anymore.


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