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Astrophotography and Sketching >> Sketching

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stray1
sage


Reged: 09/03/12

Loc: SW Ohio
Stray's Sketchbook
      #5527316 - 11/19/12 04:10 AM Attachment (96 downloads)

Hello!

Rather than clutter up the forum with numerous threads, I think I am going to start a dedicated “sketchbook”. The first installment is yet another attempt at capturing Jupiter. I have received a great deal of encouragement (and inspiration) from Asbytech and others so I figured I’d take another extended viewing of the “Big One” this evening. After consulting Stellarium I determined that the GRS should be in view, so that was really my primary objective. Unfortunately, my observing skills are not yet honed enough to see anything other than a slight widening along the southern equatorial band (this would be around the 5 O’clock position in my 17mm enlarged view). At least I “think” this is the GRS. It appeared more as a “faint gray blur” to my untrained eye. Additionally, I am beginning to discern a bit of shading in the southern hemisphere, but thus far this is coming in simply as a “hint” of grayness. Finally, Europa was in transit during my observation and I’m pretty sure (but not positive) that I was able to see its shadow (a black dot in the lower view indicates its approximate position).



-stray-

Ps—After reading Jef De Wit’s critique of one of my previous sketches, I decided that he is correct—the “art deco” cadre is indeed a distraction. With this in mind, I generated a new cadre specifically for Jupiter. Hopefully, it is less of an eyesore; however, I am not sure whether to call it “Jupiter Cadre” or “Panzer Camouflage Cadre”. You decide.
Critique is welcome here.

Danke for looking!


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Asbytec
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5527326 - 11/19/12 04:35 AM

I do like the cadre, Stray. Maybe the hues you chose better compliment your subject? Eyesore is probably the wrong word, but the attractive color and designs did draw the eye away. They were attractive. This one seems to compliment without pulling attention from the subject.

The GRS is a big grey spot these days. You can check it's transit times here. I think Stellarium is accurate, too.

http://www.skyandtelescope.com/observing/objects/planets/3304091.html?page=1&...

And the moons...and it shows the shadows, too.
http://www.skyandtelescope.com/observing/objects/javascript/jupiter

And later, Saturn...
http://www.skyandtelescope.com/observing/objects/javascript/saturn_moons

Your sketches are already showing more, Stray. You enlarged the image. That's probably a good idea, our sketches should be accurate as possible while not making features as difficult for the observer, IMO.

Your refractor has a bit more to offer, conservatively about 100x on Jupiter and maybe 150x on Saturn and Mars. Your 17 is probably showing you everything there is to see, but the image scale might add difficulty.


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stray1
sage


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5527347 - 11/19/12 05:15 AM

Hi Norme,

After reviewing the Moon positions in the S&T link that you posted, I am unsure as to what was causing the dark "spot" that I detected on the planet's face. I initially thought it was something on the EP (17mm) that I was using, but I also saw it when I dropped the 10mm in. Plus, it appeared to move over time.



-stray-


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stray1
sage


Reged: 09/03/12

Loc: SW Ohio
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5527349 - 11/19/12 05:20 AM Attachment (42 downloads)

Hello!

Delta Orionis, Mintaka; “the belt” is an uncomplicated find. Simply slew to the upper-right star in Orion’s belt and there you have it. It is also a very easy binary to split (and, thus, right up my noob alley). After struggling for several weeks to resolve nearby 33 Orionis for the Haas Project, Mintaka is a breath of unsullied air!

A Class B giant star, this dazzling gem glows bright, surrounded by a lambent airy disk of deep zaffre blue. It almost looks as if the Cosmic Patrol pulled this one over for a “talking to”. It is, most definitely, a blue, cerulean star. While diminutive, Mintaka’s companion is just as striking to behold. It appears as a frosty, tiffany blue speck; perched immediately over Delta’s right shoulder (depending on your POV). Combined, this pair is a magnificent spectacle and well worth the time!

Did I mention that it is an easy split?

Thanks for looking.



-stray-


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Asbytec
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5527350 - 11/19/12 05:21 AM

Jupiter rotates pretty quickly, you can actually notice it in a few minutes time. Sometimes you really need to be conscious of it when sketching. The moons and their shadows, as well. It does not take long to cross the disc. Good catch!

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Chopin
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5527623 - 11/19/12 10:20 AM

Stray, great idea to make a single thread for your sketch work.

As for that black dot, I'm not sure if you've figured it out yet (so my apologies for any insult) but that was probably Europa's lunar shadow. Norme gives great advice for those programs. I have been using "Jupiter2" for years and find that to work too (just do a Google search). Don't forget to adjust your time against UTC when cross referencing. With Jupiter2 you can save your time so that you have the correct reference every time you open the program.


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niteskystargazer
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5528658 - 11/19/12 07:42 PM

Stray,

I like your Sketchbook .

CS,KLU,

,

Tom


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stray1
sage


Reged: 09/03/12

Loc: SW Ohio
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: niteskystargazer]
      #5529338 - 11/20/12 03:23 AM Attachment (34 downloads)

Beta Cygni redux.

"At first glance, the primary appears as a blazing daffodil; a yellow orb encompassed by a diffracted corona of similar, saturated hue. It burns in charcoal ether like a freshly plucked dandelion up there in the sky. Located a solid split away, its smaller companion glows pale diamond blue; a cool and pleasing complement to the warmer primary."


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Asbytec
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5529581 - 11/20/12 08:28 AM

More beautiful work, Stray.

Whoa! Delta Ori just made my list for tonight. I missed your post earlier.

Your sketch book has the feel of a monster thread.

Edited by Asbytec (11/20/12 08:31 AM)


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frank5817
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5529797 - 11/20/12 10:45 AM

Stray,

A beautiful collection of sketches here.

Frank


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stray1
sage


Reged: 09/03/12

Loc: SW Ohio
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: frank5817]
      #5530759 - 11/20/12 06:21 PM Attachment (35 downloads)

Thank you all for comments/critique.

This is a "painting" that I based on an image that I found online. It is a study of the Great Nebula in Orion. While I did make an attempt at correct star placement within the nebula itself, most are simply random dots and splotches to achieve a "star field" effect. Additionally, there is some subtle coloring that might not show up on all monitors.

Thanks for looking and, please, do not hesitate to offer constructive critism.



-stray-


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Asbytec
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5530904 - 11/20/12 07:41 PM

I dunno Stray, the stunning sensation I get when your sketches first pop up. Just gotta say, "Whoa..."

If that color (including the green below right) does not show up on your monitor, it's set to gray scale. Change it.

Man, how I wish to see that kind of color. Maybe in the next life.


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stray1
sage


Reged: 09/03/12

Loc: SW Ohio
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5531032 - 11/20/12 08:58 PM

Quote:

I dunno Stray, the stunning sensation I get when your sketches first pop up. Just gotta say, "Whoa..."

If that color (including the green below right) does not show up on your monitor, it's set to gray scale. Change it.

Man, how I wish to see that kind of color. Maybe in the next life.




Hi Norme,

Thank you kindly for your comments, but "stunning"? "Cool" perhaps, but not stunning. Yes, the colors sort of jump out at you but I credit Paint.net and Gaussian blur for this effect. It did all of the hard work. Yes, it looks enough like the Orion nebula that it is easily recognized, but at the same time there are so many subtle nuances to this beautiful object that I just could not capture them all. The general shape is there. That's about it.

And then there's that awful, arbitrary "star field"

And yes, I too wish I could see those colors through my EP. I'd never leave Orion.



-stray-


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Asbytec
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5531052 - 11/20/12 09:11 PM

Observing the Trap a few nights ago, I thought to try a sketch of the nebulocity in the area. Are you kidding? Just way too many wisps and dark lanes. Beautiful, but I wouldn't wanna sketch it.

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frank5817
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5531086 - 11/20/12 09:32 PM

Stray,

I think you spent some time in Art school. You are not new to sketching you have be doing this for a while.

Frank


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stray1
sage


Reged: 09/03/12

Loc: SW Ohio
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: frank5817]
      #5531318 - 11/20/12 11:30 PM

Quote:

Stray,

I think you spent some time in Art school. You are not new to sketching you have be doing this for a while.

Frank




Hi Frank,

No, no art school for me--high school art class and a couple of charcoal drawing classes in college is all my formal training. My use of color is based on watching Bob Ross on PBS; however, I have never painted along with him. My previous use of Paint.net has primarily been limited to retouching photographs, etc. Heck, I don't even know how to use 3/4 of the software's features.

While true that I have some artistic background, amateur astronomy and star sketching is new ground for me.

Thanks for the complement!



-stray-


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stray1
sage


Reged: 09/03/12

Loc: SW Ohio
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5534783 - 11/23/12 02:38 AM

Though not a sketch per se, I believe the following observations are appropriate for my sketchbook. Please consider them as my "notes", scribbled in the margin, for future reference.

This evening I decided to take the pressure and distraction that comes with sketching an object off and spend a relaxed hour or so with Jupiter, simply observing. Transparency was not all that good as we had some clouds move through earlier, plus the moon gave the sky a washed-out glow, but seeing was not so bad…somewhat better than usual in that I was able to focus more tightly on the Galilean moons and bring them into sharp (or at least sharper) points of light (does this make sense?).

My objective tonight was to just look at Jupiter and see if I could make out any of the finer details that others have sketched and that I seem to be missing through my 90mm.

I began my survey using a 25mm EP (x36). The N and S EQ belts were apparent, but not much else (usually I can see a hint of the N Polar region (NPR) at this magnification, but not tonight). The addition of a yellow filter offered little improvement; it did, however, cut down on some minor glare and allow for an even tighter focus. As such, I decided to use the filter in all EPs for the remainder of my viewing session.

In an earlier discussion, someone suggested that I use a 10mm EP (x91) to bring out more detail so I gave it a second try (ordinarily, my cut-off for planetary observing is 17mm due to resolution issues, but I'm still a rookie). At x91 magnification, the NPR became apparent; though I think what I am probably seeing is a blending of the NPR and the N n Temperate belt.

Additionally, the N Temperate belt showed up as a thin scratch of shading between the N Temperate zone and the N Tropical zone.

In my observation of 19 November 2012 I mentioned that I was able to catch a “hint” of the South Polar Region (SPR), but this feature was not visible tonight for some reason; however, by using averted vision, I believe that I was able to catch a glimpse of the South Temperate Belt (STB). This is an element that I hadn't noticed before.

From here, I experimented with even higher magnifications (8mm (x113) and 6mm (x151) w/ yellow filter) and though I lost further resolution, I am convinced that I am beginning to discern subtle variations of shading in the EQ belts. At this early stage these are nothing that I could accurately represent in a sketch (other than as arbitrarily placed “smudges” of darker or lighter gray within the belts). Since the EQ belts show up regardless of magnification, perhaps this is where I should focus most of my attention?

Although the southern portion of Jupiter appeared to me to be without detail for the duration of this session, I did have a couple of lucid moments where everything north of STB seemed to gel and form an image of what I know the planet looks like as a whole (sans the GRS, which was out of sight). My hope is that as my eye becomes better trained, these lucid moments become the norm.

One thing that was particularly “neat” about this extended view was that I was able to observe one of the moons, Io, approach the northern limb of the planet…and then just “disappear”.

Never seen it happen before tonight.

Now, THAT was cool!

Thanks for viewing...er, reading. Comments, criticism, and advice are always welcome.



-stray-


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stray1
sage


Reged: 09/03/12

Loc: SW Ohio
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5534786 - 11/23/12 02:43 AM

Quote:

Observing the Trap a few nights ago, I thought to try a sketch of the nebulocity in the area. Are you kidding? Just way too many wisps and dark lanes. Beautiful, but I wouldn't wanna sketch it.




That is why I cheated and used a photograph. Overwhelming in my EPs.



-stray-


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Asbytec
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5534875 - 11/23/12 04:50 AM

Quote:

...and spend a relaxed hour or so with Jupiter, simply observing.




Me, too. But I do have a back log of sketches to finish on the PC.

Quote:

Additionally, the N Temperate belt showed up as a thin scratch of shading between the N Temperate zone and the N Tropical zone.

I believe that I was able to catch a glimpse of the South Temperate Belt (STB). This is an element that I hadn't noticed before.

I am convinced that I am beginning to discern subtle variations of shading in the EQ belts.




Okay, I remember you mentioned maybe seeing them before. And now you are seeing it? Thought so.

The Southern region has not a great amount of contrast, kind of a soft grey hue to my eye. That can be hard to differentiate from the more white region just north of it. Keep at it, you will spot the change in contrast. Wait on those very steady moments, that's when Jupiter speaks to you.

At times Jupiter will "burn" into your retina, for lack of a better description. At those moments when it "burns in", relax and focus down on it. Jupiter just pops, it becomes so crystal clear and colorful. Then it'll pass. Pull back, relax, sketch what you saw, and wait for the next session you and Jupiter are tuned and become as one. You get into a zone not unlike in sports. Make sense? Observing can really be that mystical.

On shading in the EQ belts, "Trust the force, Luke." You seem to be learning what to look for, that comes only with practice. Relax, let it come. Trust it when it does. Soon, some of those now difficult features will become second nature then you can plunge deeper and softer...probably right to the limit of what your scope and eye can deliver.

Rule of thumb is about 30x per inch, or 1.2x per mm (I think) of aperture. Here you get a good balance for contrast and image scale. Higher power, and Jupiter gradually becomes dimmer (more so with a filter) and softer.

No criticisms, Stray. It sounds like you are training yourself to observe. It just takes time and effort, nothing just comes to you without it. Spend an hour or so each session, just looking and looking again. Then, look some more. Take a break, if you feel the need. Stretch. No hurry (unless you're sketching, hang with it until done.) It's much like curling a barbell. The more you exercise your skill, the stronger you get. Passion helps immensely, but tempered with honesty. (I feel like I should add, "Grasshopper" here. )

Soon enough, you'll need new undergarments and more aperture. Last night I was weight training my eyeballs at 40x per inch, a bit too much for Jupiter. But it was the challenge, the training I was after. Still enjoying the view, of course.

(Man, I got all mystical on ya, huh?)

Rock on.

Edited by Asbytec (11/23/12 06:04 AM)


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Ed D
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5534964 - 11/23/12 07:39 AM

Stray, your latest sketch of Jupiter shows quite a bit of detail. Good observation!

Ed D


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Chopin
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5535139 - 11/23/12 09:52 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Observing the Trap a few nights ago, I thought to try a sketch of the nebulocity in the area. Are you kidding? Just way too many wisps and dark lanes. Beautiful, but I wouldn't wanna sketch it.




That is why I cheated and used a photograph. Overwhelming in my EPs.



-stray-




Those darned deep sky objects are daunting to say the least. I'm actually considering the purchase of 30-40º eyepieces so that I have to sketch less of the field.


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Asbytec
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Chopin]
      #5535404 - 11/23/12 12:34 PM



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stray1
sage


Reged: 09/03/12

Loc: SW Ohio
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5536647 - 11/24/12 04:50 AM Attachment (20 downloads)

Norme,

You don't need to refer to me as "Grasshopper"..."Weedhopper" works just as well. Heh.

At any rate, I ripped off your sketch template (do you mind?) to generate an approximation of what I might see of Jupiter on any given night. The features that I am unsure of are noted in red.

As for being passionate or honest, I tend toward the latter. As Cap'n Kirk might say: "Must...see...must see what I...see...Spock? Spock?"



-stray-


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Asbytec
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5537417 - 11/24/12 03:43 PM

Sorry for getting all mystical on ya...just was on a passionate roll. Might have been a little "weed hopper," myself. (kidding, only.)

As for your sketch, everything looks right. All the right stuff is there. The feature below the GRS certainly looks to be correct, you're capturing something in the (can't read the cheat chart from here) STB. To know if the GRS was visible, you can check the date and time of your observation against it's transit times. Here's a good one, of the many avail...

http://www.skyandtelescope.com/observing/objects/planets/3304091.html?page=1&...

I don't mind at all, but you'll have to subscribe for updates.


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stray1
sage


Reged: 09/03/12

Loc: SW Ohio
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5543264 - 11/28/12 03:30 AM Attachment (22 downloads)

Not a good sketch, though not really meant to be. Generated from memory following a very brief, spur of the moment, observation this morning. We’ve had clouds since the weekend, but they were thin and/or broken this morning, really hazy up there, but I decided to take what I could get while the getting was good. Clouds in the forecast for the rest of the week. The full moon, Jupiter, and a few of the brighter stars (e.g., Rigel, Sirius, etc.) were showing through the ceiling. Coldest session thus far: 25-deg F. High humidity, clammy, frost coating my viewing chair and table.

I spent a couple of hours on Sunday (cloudy) blackening the inside of the barrels of my Orion 25mm and 10mm EPs with flat black paint, so my real reason for “braving” the cold was to see if this made any improvement to my viewing clarity. I believe that there is a slight improvement as far as that goes. I have never seen the SPR as clearly as I did this morning (though this might also be attributed to the filtering effect of the clouds?)

NPR: check

NTB: check

NEB: check (also noted additional detail in this belt; see sketch)

SEB: check

STB: missing (possibly merged with the SPR?)

SPR: BIG check

Had my best view through the 10mm using a x2 Barlow; blurry, but detailed if that makes sense. Though the GRS was apparently visible I did not notice it as I spent most of my (brief) EP time focused on the NEQ to determine if I could discern any festoons (didn’t see them).

Anyway, here’s the sketch. The only real area of interest is noted (and, even then, this is a simple approximation of “something” going on in the NEB; not sure what it was).

Template is copyrighted to Asbytech, 2012, I think.



-weedhopper-


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Asbytec
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5543271 - 11/28/12 04:17 AM

LOL

It's okay if I can copy your moon presentation at lower right. Get the other one, the mask and apply it...cover up those belt/zone guides.

Weedhopper, I have tried blacking and so forth. About the only thing I think made any difference, if any, was flocking the inside of the primary baffle. If nothing else, it feels good that it looks black inside.


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stray1
sage


Reged: 09/03/12

Loc: SW Ohio
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5544910 - 11/29/12 01:18 AM

Quote:

LOL

It's okay if I can copy your moon presentation at lower right. Get the other one, the mask and apply it...cover up those belt/zone guides.

Weedhopper, I have tried blacking and so forth. About the only thing I think made any difference, if any, was flocking the inside of the primary baffle. If nothing else, it feels good that it looks black inside.




Copy away. Can't wait to see your version of the moons!



-stray-


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Asbytec
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5544959 - 11/29/12 03:46 AM

With the way Pete has been driving me deeper into difficult observations of the Jovian moons, the sketches might surprise.

Anyway, was thinking about your sketch recently. You're showing more detail. Congrats. I still think your scope can show more. In theory and in good conditions, it should have the contrast of a slightly larger CAT.


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Chopin
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5545183 - 11/29/12 09:45 AM

Stray, terrific Jovian sketch. Pretty soon, with repeated observations, you'll be catching sharper representations of those belt details. I enjoy following your progress.

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stray1
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Chopin]
      #5546658 - 11/30/12 04:44 AM Attachment (17 downloads)

Hi all,

Thanks for commenting. Chop, yes I believe that I am beginning to detect more detail; still have a long, long way to go. Norme, still working on that “theory”. My current limitations are more a lack of skill rather than lack of equipment…lol.

Anyway, for most of the evening of 29 Nov, transparency was rather poor. I could make out Luna, Jupiter, and Aldebaran but little else. By the time I arrived home from work (approx. 01:45 EST; 06:45 UT) things had cleared somewhat transparency-wise; however, Luna was washing out prime observing zones (Orion, Jupiter). Still, there were things to look at so I brewed a cup of java, set up the Astroview, and started slewing around. Really not the best viewing conditions per se.--frustrating, actually with a near-full moon.

M42/43: a pale shadow of its usual glorious self (however, I’m beginning to detect a hint of green in the nebula…a transparent bitter lime, perhaps ).

33 Orionis: “Fuggit about it”, as Tony Soprano might say.

Delta Orionis (Mintaka): Blah. The Cosmic Cops must be on a donut break tonight.

Jupiter: Well, now, the 2nd brightest object in the night (early AM sky actually) was true. Even at low magnification (25mm) the EQ belts were visible as well as the NTB and the N & S Polar Regions. The SPR was not as apparent as it was a couple of nights ago, so I’ll attribute this to the filtering effect of the thicker haze I experienced on 28 Nov and NOT any major improvement due to my blackening the interior surface of the EP. Increased magnification and/or filters did not reveal additional detail so no “enlarged” sketches this morning.

Lest the session wind up as a complete bust, I went ahead and noted the positions of the moons and cranked out a rather boring sketch. I believe I got everything correct, but by the end I was so frustrated that I was ready to throw my coffee cup at anything that moved (I didn’t, BTW).

On nights like this I now understand why some beginners might slam their rig into a corner of the garage or basement and “fuggit about it”. Permanently.

*sigh*



-stray-


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Asbytec
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5546671 - 11/30/12 05:00 AM

Sure, there will be frustrating nights. Fuggit about it. It's those good nights we live for.

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Chopin
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5546762 - 11/30/12 08:05 AM

Norme said it. Fuggit about it. Keep on keepin on, you know. Learning how to get the most out of poor nights will also help with your observing abilities. I find that sketching in A-IV seeing forces me to stay glued to the EP, and quickly jot the details that reveal themselves in calm moments that last less than a Zsa Zsa Gabor marriage.

BTW, I'm glad to hear you didn't kill any squirrels with a caffeinated projectile.



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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Chopin]
      #5549466 - 12/01/12 10:14 PM Attachment (12 downloads)

Thanks for comments and encouragement! No way I’m ready to quit over a night or two of frustration. Did the Natives quit at the Little Big Horn just because Custer’s pony soldiers started shooting back?

It’s was cloudy most of the day so I wasn’t really expecting to do any observing, but around 6:45 (11:45 UT) the sky opened briefly. Knowing that it would probably close just as quick, I scrambled to the garage and grabbed my rapid deploy rig—the Meade StarFinder that perpetually awaits such fleeting opportunisms (I was feeling too lazy to set up the Orion).

Big J was still pretty low in the sky and partially obscured in the branches of a black walnut tree. I tracked it for a couple of minutes and found that there was an opening in the branches just large enough to allow me to see the disk and three of the moons once they rose above their current position. While waiting for them to come into view I made a quick sketch of the branches and when Jupiter and companions were “framed” they were added to the sketch. According to Stellarium the moons are Europa, Callisto, and Ganymede.
While not exactly what was viewed in the EP, this finished “product” at the least captures the spirit of the moment. (Chop, you can make a copy of this and have it put on a coffee mug if you wish…lol).

Plus I have a question concerning UT (which I have only recently been adding to my sketches). My time zone (EST) is -5 UT, so if it is 7PM (19:00) my time, it is 00:00 UT. Is this correct?



-stray-


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stray1
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5549479 - 12/01/12 10:26 PM Attachment (16 downloads)

Here are a couple of practice thumbnails I drew from photos on Google. It has been years since I've tried to draw anything with pencil, so I am trying to "recondition" my clumsy fingers to accommodate this new hobby of mine. I limited myself to 10 minutes per sketch to simulate those "speed drills" my art instructor taught me back in college.

Geez...



-stray-


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5549493 - 12/01/12 10:36 PM

Quote:


Plus I have a question concerning UT (which I have only recently been adding to my sketches). My time zone (EST) is -5 UT, so if it is 7PM (19:00) my time, it is 00:00 UT. Is this correct?



-stray-




You got it, we here on the east coast need to add 5 hours for UT. Be careful when we switch the clocks though, there is a brief period where they don't change their clocks, or they do and we don't, can't remember, but right now you're fine.


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: AdirondackAstro]
      #5549751 - 12/02/12 02:26 AM

Thanks Mike! I thought I had the UT correct

Like your blog, BTW. Great AP!



-stray-


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5549759 - 12/02/12 02:36 AM

Thanks a lot, Stray. I do a bit of sketching now and then. I really need to get into it more. Would be a nice comparison of through the eyepiece to go along with my images.

BTW, I forgot to mention you've got some really good sketches here!


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: AdirondackAstro]
      #5549794 - 12/02/12 04:24 AM

Goodness, Stray, I thought you either developed robo eyeballs or ungraded to a 6" refractor. Sketching practice, okay got it. Whew! Thought there was a new sheriff in town.

And you captured the tree limbs... Well, that's actually kind of cool, not like we've never peeked between the limbs before. Okay, I can dig it. It would make a nice coffee cup logo.

Edited by Asbytec (12/02/12 04:30 AM)


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stray1
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5549804 - 12/02/12 04:39 AM

Quote:

And you captured the tree limbs... Well, that's actually kind of cool, not like we've never peeked between the limbs before.




Not exactly optimal viewing, but sometimes we gotta dance with the one who brung us.



-stray-


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5555074 - 12/05/12 04:07 AM Attachment (13 downloads)

Success! (I think)

After nearly two weeks of pretty lousy viewing conditions, including rain most of today, the sky overhead "finally" opened up for me! Transparency was really good, but seeing left a lot to be desired...everything was rolling or jittery (heck, Mizar A/B looked like they were dancing a sailor's jig ). Didn't matter, it was wonderful for me this morning (cold, clammy, 100% humidity, dew dripping from my rig within minutes...woooondeeerfuuul!).

Primary target was the Big J. N & S polar regions were apparent as were the NTB and both big belts at 25mm. Settled into my chair and dropped in the 10mm...something was "different"...along the lower edge of the NEB there appeared to be two dark "smudges" that I had never noticed before. Floaters? I cleared my eye. Still there. Dust on my EP? Dropped in the 8mm. Still there. The 6mm. There they were. Tried a bunch of different EPs, filters, and the x2 Barlow just to be sure. Walked away from the rig and drank some coffee. Looked again. Still there.

I had no intention of making a sketch this evening, it was supposed to be a pure viewing session; however, after seeing what I saw I realized that I had to put something down on "paper". For the sake of argument, please ignore the sloppiness of this presentation; color, blur, and band/moon placement were secondary as I whipped this up from memory. The dark splotches are the subject of this piece. I KNOW that I observed them.

I'm thinking that they are probably festoons, but I cannot be sure of this unless someone else made a similar observation around the same time. All I know is that they were there and I have never noticed them before this morning.



-stray-


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5555090 - 12/05/12 04:22 AM

Oh! Festoons! Yea, probably for sure, Stray. First off, you are making great strides and repeating the same nervous behavior I engage in, sipping coffee...walking around...then going back to look. Not a bad habbit, really. Relax a little.

Okay, at 0730UT on 5 Dec, you were at System I meridian (EZ and EQ belts, basically) of ~34 degrees.

You can find that here. http://www.arksky.org/newcmcalc.htm

Now, double check from here (or the CN imaging forum, but they almost never list what longitude they imaged.)
http://alpo-j.asahikawa-med.ac.jp/Latest/Jupiter.htm

Initial look shows some images at Sys I ~50 degrees. Close enough for an initial peek. Guess what? Two faint festoons! Well done!

http://alpo-j.asahikawa-med.ac.jp/kk12/j121204z.htm



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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5556404 - 12/05/12 08:54 PM

-stray- The sketching collection keeps growing here - very fine work.

Frank


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: frank5817]
      #5556872 - 12/06/12 04:12 AM Attachment (13 downloads)

Thanks everyone for your pervious comments. They are greatly appreciated!

I tried something different this morning during my Jupiter observation. Rather than sketch it and then attempt to transfer over to paint.net, I simply scanned the sketch that I made at my rig and cleaned it up a little. I think this results in an image somewhat closer to what I am actually seeing thru my EP.

I believe that I captured another festoon along the lower edge of the NEB as well as a couple of areas where the EZ seemed to “cut” into the NEB and SEB. The SEB seemed thinner than usual, but I think this because the GRS had just passed through and churned things up a bit (did not see the GRS). The NPR and NTB were apparent (NPR smaller than usual) as well as the SPR (usually small for me with few exceptions) but, nothing south of the SEB was detectable (basically a void). Additionally, I am beginning to detect that both big belts take on a “speckled” appearance, like they were hit with a thin stream of white from an airbrush; however, I cannot say that I am actually seeing white spots, etc. These details are vague for me.

According to the notes that I jotted down before going outside (sometimes I get distracted and forget my purpose…heck, sometimes I forget to jot notes) my objectives this session were: a) split the NEB, b) detect festoons, and c) detect the GRS (according to Stellarium it should have just been visible along the preceding limb).

a) Split the NEB: No.

b) Detect festoons: Yes (at least a dark spot/blob in the proper location…lol).

c) Detect GRS: No.

Before packing up for the morning I swung over and had a peek at M42/43. Outstanding! I also swung over to take a gander at ETA Cas but, alas, Cas had settled into the LP dome to my north. Plus, a thin layer of clouds was beginning to move in. Rain in the forecast over the next couple of days. T-storms on Saturday


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5556873 - 12/06/12 04:15 AM

Oh, yeah, Norme, thank you very kindly for the links. These will be invaluable to me in the future. Now, if I can just figure out what System(s) I-III mean...



-stray-


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5556892 - 12/06/12 04:51 AM

Me, too Stray.

Best I can derive, system I is the faster rotating system of belts that include the EZ and most of the NEB and SEB. North and south of that region are the north and south tropical, temperate, and polar regions. That is system II, the slower rotating cloud belts. System II I believe is radio frequencies and we can safely ignore it.

Your sketching is great and your observing seems to have improved. You're getting much closer to what your scope can deliver. It may have a little more to offer.

The dents on the underside of the NEB are probably caused by festoon "roots" bulging into the EZ. This gives it that undulating appearance, and some parts are darker as you've shown.

Not sure what caused that dent in the north of the SEB, but it looks interesting. It could be part of the wake. It might also be some of the broader, white features in the southern EZ (SEZ.) Need to check that out.


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5557151 - 12/06/12 09:39 AM

I like your computer generated images, but I think I like this pencil sketch even better, Stray! You are really starting to pick up those details well.

I agree that your undulation is undoubtedly caused by festoons, or "festoon roots" as Norme so brilliantly named them. Keep going. You are starting to see that 90mm is capable of digging into the Jovian surface once you recognize the landscape.


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5560494 - 12/08/12 08:00 AM

Stray,

Just got a chance to look at your virtual sketchbook--you have a nice collection of drawings here. Your perserverance in studying and sketching Jupiter is showing results.

Quote:

Best I can derive, system I is the faster rotating system of belts that include the EZ and most of the NEB and SEB. North and south of that region are the north and south tropical, temperate, and polar regions. That is system II, the slower rotating cloud belts. System II I believe is radio frequencies and we can safely ignore it.






Just a slight correction to what Norme says here--System I is the region about 10° north and south of the Jovian equator. System I is basically the Equatorial Zone (EZ).

System II is the rest of Jupiter from 10° N/S to the poles.

I think there is a typo about the radio signal system--it should say System III, not System II.

Good luck with your Jupiter observations!


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Special Ed]
      #5560495 - 12/08/12 08:06 AM

Thanks, Michael. I never could find a source that said it explicitly. So, I stretched it to the jets in the northern NEB and southern SEB thinking that would be about right.

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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5560529 - 12/08/12 08:45 AM

No problemo. And since System I is about 10° N/S, I believe it includes the jets on the northern SEB and the southern NEB.

Here is one source of info about Jupiter.

http://www.britastro.org/jupiter/guide.htm

John Rogers is the head of the Jupiter section of BAA and Damian Peach is one of the best imagers in the world.


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Special Ed]
      #5560585 - 12/08/12 09:47 AM

Thank you, read that a while back. Still trying to decipher Systems. And, yes, I think system III should be corrected above. It was a typo. I think I got that from you in an earlier post.

But, this is confusing, from the link above.

"DL2: Peak speed in System II (degrees per 30 days), as calculated from the first two columns.
(Note: DL1 = DL2 – 229; DL3 = DL2 – 8.)
Eastward (prograding) jets have positive u3 and negative DL2.
Westward (retrograding) jets have negative u3 and positive DL2."

Okay, first they mention only System II, that's already confusing. But, the positive DL2 retrograde winds are at latitudes ~17N and ~20S. This seems to mean everything between across the EZ, including the NEBs and SEBn, probably blows eastward at varying speeds. Their chart shows that. This is what I thought was system I. Gaa!

If we (meaning me) ever figure this out, it can be referenced in Stray's sketchbook.


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5560712 - 12/08/12 11:19 AM

I think I understand what you are confused about. One source I read says the the EZ extends to about 7° north and south of the Jovian equator.

The jets along the south edge of the NEB (+8-5 degrees latitude)and the north edge of the SEB (-7 degrees latitude) both flow eastward (prograde) and gradually diminish in speed towards the middle of both belts (this drop off in wind speed causes rifts in the NEB according to Peach).

By the time we reach the north edge of the NEB or the south edge of the SEB, the jets have reversed and are flowing westward (retrograde).

One way to remember this is that eastward jets are on the equator side of the belts and westward jets are the polar side of the belts.

You're probably waiting for me to get to the point so here it is. The two Systems have to do with the differential rotation speed of Jupiter, not the wind speed or direction. As you know, System I rotation time is about 5 minutes faster than System II for a full rotation. So maybe the BAA is counting those east flowing jets bordering the EZ and the two main belts as System II because they have been observed to rotate slower than the EZ.

Because we're talking about something with no hard surface there probably isn't a distinct border. When I read this material on the BAA website, I see the words about and approximately from time to time.

Maybe someone like Paul Abel (or Carlos Hernandez) could provide more insight.

One result of this discussion--I usually only include the System II longitude in my drawings. I think I'll start including System I as well.


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Special Ed]
      #5560751 - 12/08/12 11:40 AM Attachment (14 downloads)

Sure, the EZ and the equatorial belt boundaries do have the faster rotation. And maybe that is the key distinction. I included, as you surmised, a bit more latitude because of the wind direction being the same. In fact, referencing their chart below.

I was not sure if the slower speeds north and south of the EZ were that distinctive in rotational time. Surely winds blowing the opposite direction would, so I made that leap of faith. It's interesting both NEBs and SEBn bordering the EZ rotate at over 220 degrees/month (apparently along with the EZ) while NEBn and SEBs slow considerably and change direction. To change that much in a month would require a pretty large change each day. So, yea, not having read it anywhere, that's how I came about it.

Surely the boundaries are not defined exactly. Makes sense, though. Thanks, interesting and a bit confusing, as is why prograde EZ winds blow in the opposite direction of it's rotation. (Actually, the DL2 figures are, of course, proportional to the wind speed and direction over Jupiter's longitude.)


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stray1
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5563422 - 12/10/12 12:51 AM Attachment (14 downloads)

Chop: Thanks for your comment. Yes, I believe that my eye is beginning to catch on to what the 90mm is showing me.

Ed & Norme: Great discussion on the systems! Now we at least have a working knowledge of what is meant by Systems I and II in terms of belts and zones. System III designates the rotation of the planet’s core (I think) and would probably be of little value to us (well, to me at any rate).

Anyway, this weekend has been a bust observing-wise; been overcast and raining/drizzling for the past three days. The sketch below was drawn from a photograph and is another practice drill. I focused specifically on the belts and zones south of the SEB simply because when viewed through my scope this area is a big blank spot. I generated the sketch starting from the SPR and working my way north.

Hopefully this will help me to draw a mental map of the region so that the next time I have it in my EP something will jump out at me similar to the way that the festoons became apparent once I knew what I was looking for. If not, there are always barges and chevrons to seek out.

Sketch was done on printer paper using HB/ 2H pencils and a kneaded art gum eraser. Put no time limit on it. Took about half an hour.



-stray-


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5563444 - 12/10/12 01:12 AM

I think I might transfer this over to MP3 format, download it to my Sansa, and listen to it the next time I'm out observing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImuLz1Oo9c8

Maybe this one, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phhUy1VsnG0



-stray-


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stray1
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5563505 - 12/10/12 02:59 AM

Quote:

I think I might transfer this over to MP3 format, download it to my Sansa, and listen to it the next time I'm out observing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImuLz1Oo9c8

Maybe this one, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phhUy1VsnG0



-stray-




On second thought, no I won't. It appears that YouTube has gotten a bit "dystopian" as of late concerning MP3 conversions. Something about copyright infringement. Who holds the copyright on the sounds of Jupiter and Io? NASA?

Oh, well...I can still listen to Astronomy Cast.

http://www.astronomycast.com/



-stray-


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5563535 - 12/10/12 04:01 AM

Man, if you could hear the planets, well, that would be real observing. Maybe elephants can hear them?

I am wondering if sketching images can suffice as observing practice? Maybe. If nothing else, you are gaining familiarity and learning to get those details down quickly. Can't hurt, have at it. And you have a nice style, surely your real time sketching reflects it.


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5563604 - 12/10/12 06:33 AM

Yeah, Stray, that pencil work has a beautiful look to it. If you can start seeing that much detail in your 90mm, you've got it made!

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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Chopin]
      #5565437 - 12/11/12 06:17 AM

Norme: I really hope that my practice sketches using photos are not considered cheating or inappropriate for this forum.

My intent with these is to create a mental map; a neural pathway between my eyeball, by brain, and my fingers so that the next time I'm at the EP if something that I've drawn before "jumps" out at me in real time I can capture it.

Ultimately, does it really matter if my first view was through the EP or from a photo? As I mentioned in a previous post, at the EP I sketch only what I actually see so it's not like I'm going to add some detail just because I think it "should" be there. I try to err to the side of "I doubt it" or "Maybe" .

Jason: Thanks for your comments on the pencil sketch. My fingers really are making the effort to loosen up a bit.

As for the 90mm, I assure you that it is showing me a lot more than I'm currently seeing. I took that color/hue test that was posted on one of your threads. Discerning subtle differences between the yellow/brown end of the scale is on of my weaknesses.

Figures...



-stray-


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Chopin
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5565471 - 12/11/12 07:23 AM

Mark, you couldn't have been cursed with a more challenging color weakness. Often times, individuals with less sensitive color perception are blessed with higher sensitivity to contrasts. Just draw what you see. The more you draw, the more you'll see.

As for the 90mm, I agree that you will definitely be able to see much more as you get better nights of seeing, and train your brain to pick up those minute details. AFAIC the 90mm refractor is darned near the perfect all around "living room" scope. Keep it setup near the couch with a couple of key eyepieces and grab it when you want. Very little cool down time, less transport weight, yet still enough aperture for most nights. I'd love to trade up from my AT 72-ED to a TMB 92-L. I can't imagine a better grab and go scope on the market. But I digress.

Keep up what you're doing with the practice sketches. It's an exercise that is helping you enjoy the hobby. And like Michael (Special Ed) pointed out in one of my recent threads, amateur literally means: for the love of it.


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5565473 - 12/11/12 07:26 AM

Mark, I hope I did not imply such. I know you're practicing. I was just commenting off the cuff about how it might help and wondering myself. I couldn't tell ya, I hope it does.

Edited by Asbytec (12/11/12 07:30 AM)


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Chopin
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Chopin]
      #5565474 - 12/11/12 07:26 AM

Oh, and if you are weak in the perceiving the warm hues, you might actually benefit from an 82A filter, if you don't already use one.

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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5566972 - 12/12/12 04:39 AM Attachment (20 downloads)

Norme…no…no, man, I didn’t mean to imply that you were implying. I was simply musing about the validity of using photographs as practice models. I’m really wondering what other sketch artists think about this method.

Is it fair, or is it cheating?

I believe that it is helping me map out Jupiter’s more vague features (well, vague to me anyway). It may be purely coincidental but after making my initial “practice” sketches (dated 1 Dec 2012) I can no longer look into my EP without detecting a festoon, or two (and this morning, three!) even at low magnification (25mm x36.4). I think I “might” be onto something here.

Jason, yup, I store both of my rigs out in the “observatory” to keep cool down time to a minimum. The only items I bring inside are my EPs and diagonals.

The sky finally cleared up and I had some really good observing conditions this morning; however, I have discovered that observing after work is not the most optimal time for me. The problem is that by the time I get home from work, Jupiter has already crossed vertex and is settling slowly into a LP zone to my west. I initially have excellent views, but they gradually worsen within 30-45 minutes.

Still, my first 15 minutes with the Big J this session were outstanding!

From N to S:

NPR and NnTB were apparent. They extended down nearly to the NTB and had a chalky gray speckled look to them.

NTB was ghostly, fading out toward either limb; pale russet in color.

NEB appeared thinner than I’ve presented it in previous sketches, but I’m beginning to think that perhaps I was “seeing” it as thicker than it actually is…sort of psychologically modifying it to suit my expectations of how it “should” appear. It was a pale russet color. Dangling from its southern edge were three bluish gray festoons; however, the one nearest the P limb rotated out view early in the session (I included it in the sketch “just because”). At higher magnification, I detected the festoons as being triangular in shape with very vague “tails” trailing toward to P limb. I say “detected” here because this is one of those lucid moment things…sometimes they appeared as triangular with tails but, for the most part, they looked like smudges of darker color that “might” be triangular in form and “might” have tails.

NEZ was wider than I recall; almost white but with a yellowish tint to it. No details to report.

The SEB was quite thin this morning; pale russet in color.. I believe that I detected a couple of darker spots along its southern edge, but I am unsure of this. I’ve included them in my sketch as indicated by the red question marks. I’m fairly certain that something is going on here I just do not know what it is. I am detecting something; resolving nothing.

GRS was not visible during this session.

Now, usually the southern hemisphere of Jupiter is a big void for me with the exception of the SPR which is usually visible as a vague, darker crescent. This morning things were different. The SsTB was apparent. It extended north from the SPR terminating approximately at the halfway point in reference to the southern edge of the SEB. Ordinarily, I do not see the SsTB but this morning it was there.

Additionally, I could make out a definite change of hue between the SsTB and the SPR. Both were a vague, russet color; however, the SPR was slightly darker.

And blah, blah, blah…on with the sketch…for the love of it.



-stray-


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Chopin]
      #5566976 - 12/12/12 04:49 AM

Quote:

Oh, and if you are weak in the perceiving the warm hues, you might actually benefit from an 82A filter, if you don't already use one.




Hi Jason,

Y'know, out of curiosity, I went back and retook that "test" focusing on the first bar specifically. Perfect score. There is noting wrong with my ability to discern subtle changes in hue. I think I'm just lazy.

I still may check into that filter. thanks!



-stray-


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5566980 - 12/12/12 04:55 AM

Hey, look at that! Nice detail work. I see you maxed out your exit pupil by taking advantage of the excellent seeing. Interesting dark regions in the SEB. I bet someone can comment on what they might be. FWIW, I often blow out the scale on certain features because my mind wreaks havoc with my pencil.

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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Chopin]
      #5566991 - 12/12/12 05:20 AM

Quote:

FWIW, I often blow out the scale on certain features because my mind wreaks havoc with my pencil.




Jason,

I must exaggerate certain things on paper or else my scanner will not detect them. SPR/SsTB in the above sketch is a good example of this (as well as the festoons...they "probably" were not actually that dark or well defined".

Now, if I suddenly claim to start seeing white ovals everywhere, feel free to accuse me of having "fiery trousers" (unless I run them through the "doubt gauntlet"...look, see, doubt, pace, drink coffee, smoke, look again, see, doubt, pace, drink coffee, look again with a different EP/Barlow combination...see...doubt...pace...drink coffee, pace, drink coffee, look...see!).

Not exactly the scientific method, but close.



-stray-


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Chopin]
      #5567002 - 12/12/12 05:31 AM

Hey, is practicing a particular pool shot cheating? I think not. I do it all the time. Sketch on. Anything that gives you an advantage is helpful, not cheating IMO.

Now, Mark, you are getting more out of that refractor. That's so cool. I'd bet it has bit more to deliver, still, given the good moments in seeing and you being there.

I wonder about those features on the SEB, too. There are some down there, but they are very tiny. You may have caught some of the darker features /within/ the SEB itself, but had some difficulty placing them. That's not uncommon. Sometimes weaker features are fleeting and it's hard to pinpoint them. I have no doubt something was there giving you that dark visual impression. Question is, what was it or could it have been. Lemme poke around some recent images of that CM and see what stands out.

The southern hemisphere is the most difficult for me, too. But, you are getting a hold on it. Your sketches are getting better each time, because your observing is improving right before our very eyes. You already have the sketching talent, learning to see your subject is making all the difference. Well done.


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5567026 - 12/12/12 06:02 AM

Okay, poked around a bit and found an image at CMI 63 that is 3 days old. If you rotate the planet back a bit, that will be CMI 40-ish. Well, guess what's there? Two festoons and two dark spots "IN" the SEB, one pretty prominent. There is also a dark bottom, but that may be not so easily seen.

See for yourself (second from the bottom by Christopher Pellier.)
http://alpo-j.asahikawa-med.ac.jp/kk12/j121209z.htm

Sometimes we gotta be careful because things change over the course of a few days, sometimes the get bigger and other times they fade. But if I had to guess, those dark spots might be it. Or at least a hint of it. Not conclusive, but inspiring possibility none-the-less. The only way to know for sure is to keep at it.

Edited by Asbytec (12/12/12 06:03 AM)


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5568234 - 12/12/12 08:31 PM

It's outright wrong to practice with photos.

When I am at the scope I have my hands covered in charcoal dust. I study I observe then close my eyes walk to where I kno my paper is and I FEEL the festoon FLOWING through me. I twist and turn like so many opposing jets of gas. Then I do it all over again. You must Feeeeel the features and let the electricity flow.

I've never ever looked at a drawing I've done. By the end of the observation I am collapsed at the foot of the ladder lost in reverence to the King.

Try it.

Pete


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5568491 - 12/12/12 11:51 PM

Pete, you're describing being in the zone, being one with Jupiter. It's a cool and very real experience experience. She opens up during those moments.

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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5568654 - 12/13/12 04:05 AM

Quote:

It's outright wrong to practice with photos.

When I am at the scope I have my hands covered in charcoal dust. I study I observe then close my eyes walk to where I kno my paper is and I FEEL the festoon FLOWING through me. I twist and turn like so many opposing jets of gas. Then I do it all over again. You must Feeeeel the features and let the electricity flow.

I've never ever looked at a drawing I've done. By the end of the observation I am collapsed at the foot of the ladder lost in reverence to the King.

Try it.

Pete




You might be onto something, Pete. It might be wrong for me to use photos, but not because they do not allow for the moments that you describe at the EP. I could very well be screwing up my ability to perceive here.

I was reviewing yesterday’s sketch this afternoon before leaving for work. Although I thought it looked pretty good initially, something wasn’t sitting right with it after a night’s sleep. Then I realized…the tails of the festoons are pointing TOWARD the P limb. This is incorrect. In photos and in other observers sketches the tails point away from the P limb. But, during that “lucid” moment that I described in my OP, this is how I “saw” them; pointing toward the P limb.

Now, go back and look at my first practice sketch (p.2 of this thread dated 12/01/12). This was drawn from a photograph. Note the festoon and the direction that it is pointing. Obviously, the P limb in the photo is to the right. Next, scroll up to my computer generated sketch dated 11/24/12. Take note of the NEB detail that I circled and noted as “not sure (maybe yes)” in red. Although, I did not realize it at the time, this is a festoon and it is slanted away from the P limb (the left side of the sketch).

Interesting. Before using photos to practice on, I was seeing the festoons oriented correctly. I’m now seeing the festoons on a regular basis and, at least this one time, they have appeared “flipped” in my mind’s eye. It is like I’ve trained my mind to see them as I drew them in the practice sketch; for right or wrong. What I’m wondering is if now that I realize what has happened, will my mind kick into “auto-correct” mode during those lucid moments? Even so, will I be able to trust those lucid moments now that I’ve corrupted my mind?

Incidentally, I detected several festoons this evening while observing the transit of Ganymede’s shadow across the southern hemisphere. They did not appear to be oriented in either direction. They were simply dark smears.

Maybe this is my mind’s way of telling me: “I’m not going to show you anything more until you get your act together, Buddy Roo.”

Oh yeah, Norm, I spotted some additional dark patches along the southern edge of the SEB this morning. Definitely (maybe) there, but I’m not going to attempt a sketch unless I observe them in following sessions. I've reached a point where I no longer trust myself.



-stray-

Edited by stray1 (12/13/12 04:40 AM)


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5568696 - 12/13/12 05:51 AM

Well, I have seen festoons that appeared to point the wrong way. I guess they are not, really, but sometimes the way they jet into the EZ can make them appear to. It's really just the interplay between hues that gives that effect. Often there really is no defined streak following the winds toward the following limb, just a tangle of darker albedo jetting south. So, it can appear to do almost anything.

Trust is a big component. Really, there are times I do not trust myself. So, images help confirm those things we think we saw. Soon, though, you will learn to trust our eyes a little more. Recently, I decided I saw something and wasn't gonna let an image tell me otherwise. It comes with experience and practice.

As for cheating, I cheat all the time. For example, I cheat by knowing there is a white oval south of the GRS. I am seeing it more frequently. So, even though I noted it, I still "practice" observing it to get a feel for how it comes and goes with seeing. The other ovals will behave the same way, so observing an easy one might help observe a more difficult one.


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5570292 - 12/14/12 03:36 AM Attachment (20 downloads)

Weird session this morning viewing-wise.

Transparency was really good; no clouds, no haze. Seeing was also good, but for some odd reason everything seemed washed out. Even the Pleiades (which usually “blaze”) looked blah through my 7x35s.

Even Jupiter looked paler than usual, almost black and white in appearance, and its features were vague. I detected little-to-no color in the central belts…maybe a faded terra cotta at best.

I detected 2 (possibly 3) festoons and it appears that the mental flip-flop that I experienced on the 12th has auto-corrected itself. The larger, leading festoon had a discernible “lean” away from the P limb. The middle one was just a vague smear of dark, and the third “possible” was sort of on again/off again. I believe that it was there, but am unsure. I indicated it with a dash near the F limb.

There appeared to be a couple of darker spots along the southern edge of the SEB so I am going to go out on a limb and say that I am definitely picking something up in this area.

The southern hemisphere had a faint, gray tint to it that terminated just south of the SEB, but for some reason the darker crescent of the SPR was all but invisible. This is out of the ordinary as I am usually only able to detect the SPR while everything north of it (as far as the southern edge of the SEB) looks vacant.

Additionally, there appeared to be a slightly darker “scratch” along the northern edge of this region. For sketching purposes I had to exaggerate it slightly or else my scanner will not pick it up. Honestly, I had to exaggerate all of the features as they were so vague this morning.

As I stated in the beginning…weird.


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5570332 - 12/14/12 05:19 AM

Mike, still wondering what those darker SEB features are. I'd bet they are actually embedded in the SEB. There are some trailing the GRS which, I believe, is just over the preceding limb. The first clue of that is the "scratch" in the south.

Surely weather is playing a role washing out Jupiter and the Pleiades.

I am really eager to observe tonight. That color phenom has my complete attention. Very curious if I will be able to define the SEB a little better. But, man, the GRS will be transiting. That means working feverishly on a sketch, or maybe just concentrating on the SEB.

Well, girlfriend has to dress me. Gotta run. Nice to see you sketching your observations, Mike.


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5575102 - 12/17/12 01:54 AM Attachment (9 downloads)

Cloudy/overcast most of the weekend. Cleared up a bit this evening (16-17 Dec 2012) but there were still quite a few heavy areas to the ceiling. Intermittent views of Jupiter through “scudders” early on before a reasonably wide gap allowed for about 20 minutes of relatively unobstructed observation. Lessened transparency cut down on a great deal of the glare from the planet. Seeing was really fine; good focus.

Most all of previously observed features were apparent. “Scratch” reported on 14 December along the northern edge of STB was not present. Areas north of the NTB were smaller, fainter than usual. Festoons apparent at low magnification. The larger one definitely had a triangular shape to it at higher magnification. The smaller; more of a “hint”. Both appeared grayish blue in color.

Focused chiefly on the EZ/SEB region(s) on the lookout for previously observed darker “spots”. No such spots were apparent; however, lighter areas were detected within the SEB. These areas are represented by pale smudges in the sketch as their faintness did not allow for precise placement. Maybe detected “something” going on in the center of the EZ during a moment of lucid detection. Unsure of this. Will attempt verification if anyone posts AP on the ALPO site.



-stray-


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5575108 - 12/17/12 02:09 AM

Quote:

Mike, still wondering what those darker SEB features are. I'd bet they are actually embedded in the SEB. There are some trailing the GRS which, I believe, is just over the preceding limb. The first clue of that is the "scratch" in the south.

Surely weather is playing a role washing out Jupiter and the Pleiades.

I am really eager to observe tonight. That color phenom has my complete attention. Very curious if I will be able to define the SEB a little better. But, man, the GRS will be transiting. That means working feverishly on a sketch, or maybe just concentrating on the SEB.

Well, girlfriend has to dress me. Gotta run. Nice to see you sketching your observations, Mike.




Mike? You trying to be a funny guy, Norme?

Yes, the weather probably did play a role in washing everything out. Transparency was excellent. Looking at Jupiter in the EP was like staring into a pen light at the doctor's office. Heck, I could have drawn a sketch just using that light to see by...



-stray-

Ps--danke for informing me of your "dressing routine". Next time warn me before hand so I can put on some 70s porno music; played backwards, with Satanic messages.


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5575153 - 12/17/12 04:25 AM

MARK! Yike, how embarrassing. Sorry about that.

You're hitting a stride, Mark. Your write up sounds like an observation, describing what you saw and what you think. And it's apparent to me, you're milking your refractor nicely.

Yea, getting old and helpless. I am making strides, though, dressed myself today. Just so ya know. But, I have been so focused on Jupiter at the expense of everything, including clean shorts and letting the trash pile up. You'll see.

(Are these comments becoming part of a permanent record in your Sketchbook? )


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5575236 - 12/17/12 06:32 AM

Quote:

Ps--danke for informing me of your "dressing routine". Next time warn me before hand so I can put on some 70s porno music; played backwards, with Satanic messages.




Hey Mark, with 70's porn music you don't need to add that stuff. The music pretty much stands by itself.


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Chopin]
      #5575265 - 12/17/12 07:15 AM

I think I have an 8-track with some porn oldies on it. Sound track, I think. Ah, the memories, cruisin' with my girl...

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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5578306 - 12/19/12 02:15 AM

http://alpo-j.asahikawa-med.ac.jp/kk12/j121217z.htm

The faint marking in the EZ is what I believe that I saw the other morning for a second or two. This is, of course, the EB; a feature that I have never given a second thought.

What I'm wondering is: if I think that I saw something that I wasn't even looking for, is it possible that I imagined it? Is it probable?

http://alpo-j.asahikawa-med.ac.jp/kk12/j121216z.htm

Second set by Mishina. These two photos represent Jupiter as I might see it in good viewing through the EP. The colors are accurate though more saturated all the way around.

Based on these I attribute the lighter shading along the north edge of the SEB against the darker shading of the belt itself as explaining the white "smudges" and the dark "spots" that I thought that I was seeing in earlier reports.

Of course, there is also the photo by Comolli (bottom pic) that clearly shows two dark spots along the southern edge of the SEB which closely match my sketch of the 14th.

Currently, I am uncertain of anything. Once I get another string of clear nights I will attempt to confirm through further observation.



-stray-


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5578368 - 12/19/12 04:09 AM

It's an interesting topic, Mark, about what we think we see. Especially when we're not even looking for it. Actually, that happens all the time. Something will just show itself unexpectedly. If you happened to be looking in that area, you get lucky. Really, much of Jupiter is not "easy" to see. It just doesn't fall onto your retina. The main belts, the GRS, some festoons are all pretty easy. The rest can be quite challenging and require increasing amounts of time and opportunity. But, with time, you can fill a sketch with those more challenging sightings. And more often than not, be right.

In my experience, more often than not, something is there. It might not always be clear, it is often hard to place and describe accurately. And it's difficult to see, of course, if you wait for it to appear again. But, I suspect it comes down to confidence. Observing images helps build confidence, often they will show something was indeed there. So, over time, when those unexpected observations happen you can be reasonably confident the fleeting feature was seen because you are more confident in your abilities.

A perfect example happened last night. Along the northern edge of the SEB I briefly caught three protrusions sticking up into the EZ. I was stunned at first, but very sure I saw them. I saw them well enough to actually count them. So my level of confidence was high. Upon further examination (/after/ posting the sketch that included them), they were indeed there. (IMO, sketch first, check later. Using an image to gain confidence is one thing, using it to confirm before sketching is robbing you of the observation.)

Now, there are times when looking for something specific helps to see it. For example, white ovals in the southern hemisphere. Seeing these tiny features, it really helps to understand how they behave and, at first, exactly where they are. Once you realize how small they are and how they appear (or not) with seeing, it becomes easier to spot them anywhere. I often study a big one to understand how it looks and behaves and expect the others to follow suit. That behavior adds to confidence of your sightings despite them being difficult to see.

S0, yea, if you catch something unexpected, more often than not something caused it. It is entirely probably it was imagined. It's also entirely probable it was real. How do you know at the time? I guess that depends on how familiar you are with Jupiter and your own level of confidence. Sketch it, and ask forgiveness later. Don't be afraid to be wrong.

Edited by Asbytec (12/19/12 04:37 AM)


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5578392 - 12/19/12 04:36 AM

What I'm also wondering is if I occasionally use my non-dominant eye (left) to observe, if this might also ferret out more details? I've tried this for a few minutes each of my last couple observing sessions.

As of my most recent session, I've also tried viewing with both eyes open while concentrating on the image in my dominant eye (right). The problem with this is that I fear I may be projecting something from the non-"viewing" eye onto the image that my brain is "seeing"...the border between my driveway and lawn, for example.

I'm considering purchasing one of those eye patches ("Aaarrrh, matey") from the drug store which will effectively "blind" the non-viewing eye even though it is open.



-stray-


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5578403 - 12/19/12 04:50 AM

That's a good question. Whatever eye works best for you. I am left eye dominate but observe mainly with my right eye. Dunno why, really, just habit.

Yes, both eyes open is more comfortable. Squinting all the time tends to blur the vision in my other eye making it useless for a while. An eye patch is okay, but wearing glasses makes sketching difficult. Gotta pull it off every time to put my glasses on. A cupped hand over the other eye works just as well, let it stare into the darkness in the palm of your hand to prevent overlapping images. Those overlapping images are too distracting, IMO.

Some folks say to have some ambient lighting. That's probably a good idea - to prevent dark adaption. Trick is, not to allow it to become distracting. Personally, I have ambient light - for once, the neighbors security light is welcome. But, also, I use an eyepiece cup to prevent peripheral distractions. With the other eye relaxed and staring into darkness, Jupiter is the only thing that makes it's way to the brain. Surely that helps.

But, you can try your dominate eye and see if it actually does better. It might. Use both, switch up once in a while. You might even find out one eye is a little better at detail and the other might excel at something else, like color.

If you get a patch, though, you're gonna need bird seed. For the parrot, of course. Just a hassle.


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5583521 - 12/22/12 02:09 AM

Quote:

If you get a patch, though, you're gonna need bird seed. For the parrot, of course. Just a hassle.




A parrot?

Oh, no, Norme, that just would not work. Consider this scenario:

Me on a starry night all leaned over in my chair and glaring at Jupiter through the EP (I have my eye patch on). My pet parrot, Polly, sits nearby on a perch munching bird seed (she’s not allowed to perch on the rig because she makes it quiver; nor on my shoulder because she inevitably poops on my shirt).

Me (thinking aloud): Hmmm, there’s a festoon…maybe two…is that a third on the F limb?

Polly: AWWWK! You don’t see that!

Me (tinkering with the focus knob): Be quiet, Polly. I’m onto something here. Looks like something might be going on in the EZ…is that the EB?

Polly: You don’t see that! AWWWK!

Me (adjusting the RA axis, slightly): Polly, please, you’re distracting me…whoa! Check it out! I think I can actually see the GRS this time!

Polly (flapping her wings): AWWWK! You don’t see that! AWWWK! You don’t see that! AWWWK!

Naw, eye patch or not, a parrot will not work. Incidentally, I do not actually own a parrot named Polly. My cat, Panzer, would shred something like that.



-stray-

Edited by stray1 (12/22/12 03:42 AM)


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5583583 - 12/22/12 04:18 AM

Well, show Polly a cracker and ask her if she want's one. No matter the reply, just tell her she doesn't see it, either.

Take that from me, the Parrot whisperer.

Or, try this. Sometimes girlfriend gawked at my sketches. So, when she implied I didn't see that, I showed her. Her face lit up when she realized there were clouds inside that "blue" belt.


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5584943 - 12/23/12 12:23 AM Attachment (27 downloads)

Finally a clear night. Checked in with Stellarium and saw that the GRS would make an appearance. Spent a few minutes glassing the moon and Eta Cas while waiting for Jupiter to clear the trees.

Then spent about two-and-a-half hours observing, using every combination of EP and Barlow (and without Barlow). Wasn't the greatest of viewing conditions; wasn't the worst. Bright moonlight probably played a role in this.

Did not detect the GRS There was a time or two that I thought “maybe” I could see a darker smear; nothing definite.

What I did observe was a darker band along the south edge of the SEB that marked GRS wake. Did not detect any turbulence in the belt itself. (NOTE: I’ve indicated on the sketch approximate position of GRS per Stellarium at the time that I generated the sketch, but this should not be taken to mean that I actually saw it). What is strange is that in the past I have definitely detected activity in the SEB (it usually appears thinner) caused by GRS; tonight, nothing other than the darker band I mentioned. The SEB appeared solid from limb to limb.

Could maybe see something going on in the NEB. Not sure what it was (if anything). Festoons were very dim. No evidence of the EB. NTB seemed broken up this evening.

Three cups of coffee, a runny nose, and not much else.

Good thing I do not have a parrot. She would have frozen solid.



-stray-


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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5585003 - 12/23/12 01:34 AM

The GRS is at system II 190, so good chance the GRS was off the preceding limb. Trailing the GRS at some point, there are features in the NEB. In any case, not sure how prominent the GRS is in more modest apertures. You have seen it?

You're learning to see finer details on Jupiter. And it's best for parrots to be kept indoors this time of year.


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stray1
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Reged: 09/03/12

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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5585051 - 12/23/12 02:41 AM

Quote:

The GRS is at system II 190, so good chance the GRS was off the preceding limb. Trailing the GRS at some point, there are features in the NEB. In any case, not sure how prominent the GRS is in more modest apertures. You have seen it?




Norme,

I've probably messed up my times and dates on this sketch converting from EST to UT (this was one of those times when the UT date changed while EST date remained the same). According to Stellarium the GRS should have been visible from about 20:30-00:30 EST. I went out at 20:30 EST and spent about two and a half hours observing, specifically looking for GRS. When I came inside (due to the cold...brrrr) at approx. 23:45 the GRS had not yet reached the P limb (again, according to Stellarium). It was there, I just did not see it.

I have seen what I believe to be the GRS (and its effects) through the 90mm in better viewing conditions. The moon, though not full, was really lighting up my backyard tonight. Heck, I didn't even need a red flashlight to find my way around. Add to this a really, really light covering of snow on the grass, ambient light off of white siding, lights on in my house and around the 'hood (I usually observer much later) and it does not exactly make for the most famous of conditions.

Meanwhile, an experiment of mine has proved successful. I replaced that awful, thick, sticky, gooey focuser "lube" that came with the scope with my own concoction--petroleum jelly (i.e., Vaseline) mixed with a liberal spritz of Remington gun lube (with Teflon). Minimal backlash and buttery smooth even in sub-freezing temperatures. Was able to get diffraction rings around the Jovian moons (rare for me) with ease. Heck, its almost too smooth. It'll probably have to be replaced with something once the weather warms up again in the spring but, for now, I no longer need a pipe wrench to adjust my focus on these cold winter nights.

I'm not giving up on a positive detection of GRS, but it'll have to wait for better conditions. Meanwhile, Luna seems intent on demanding my attention. Unfortunately, this clear night was an anomaly...rain, clouds, snow coming my way...



-stray-

Edited by stray1 (12/23/12 03:29 AM)


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stray1
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5585056 - 12/23/12 03:07 AM

Major malfunction on my part. The sketch is dated 21-22 Dec 2012...this should actually read 22-23 Dec 2012 (per UT). All messed up...too much caffeine?



-stray-

Edited by stray1 (12/23/12 03:14 AM)


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Asbytec
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5585107 - 12/23/12 05:04 AM

Mark, System II at 42 fits better. There are some bright NEB features there. Nicely done.

Pipe wrench...

If Luna calls, that's kind of like mother nature callin. Check it out.


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stray1
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Reged: 09/03/12

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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5586381 - 12/23/12 10:26 PM

Check out the NEB action in these APs by Go and Walker. That is probably what I detected yesterday.

http://alpo-j.asahikawa-med.ac.jp/kk12/j121223z.htm



-stray-


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Asbytec
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5586403 - 12/23/12 10:38 PM

Yep, especially Walker's image at bottom. That's a good catch. I caught them, too, a little ahead of that CM.

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5577121/page...

Here's some maps, fairly current. They show some NEB activity from about 360 to 40 degrees, system II (second Map.)

http://alpo-j.asahikawa-med.ac.jp/kk12/j121220r.htm

Merry Christmas, Mark.


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stray1
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5611367 - 01/08/13 04:31 AM Attachment (14 downloads)

Finally, after nearly three weeks of overcast skies I got some EP time. Unfortunately, by the time I arrived home from work, Jupiter had already set behind the house. After checking with Stellarium I realized that Saturn should be high enough in the E/SE to be worth the time to set up the rig and take a peek. Glad that I did.

This is the first time...ever...in fifty years of trudging the Earth that I have actually seen this object through a telescope. I did not have a lot of time to look this morning and had to wade through ankle-deep crusted snow to find an adequate spot in the backyard to set-up. The 60mm offered a tempting view, but I was unable to get a clear focus with it as I was forced to slew nearly horizontal (meaning that I had to stand on my toes to get a look).

The view through the 90mm was breathtaking! I achieved a clear, clean split between planet and rings, but the view was unsteady as I was forced to stand next to the scope (rather than sit as I usually do while observing). Still, this was an outstanding, memorable experience. Will definitely watching the early morning skies from here on out.



-stray-


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Asbytec
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5611430 - 01/08/13 07:10 AM

I remember seeing Saturn for the first time nearly 40 years ago through a Sears refractor. It was stunning. I ran up the street to grab a friend, only to return in time to see Dickie running down the street with my scope - tripod and all. He wanted to spy on his girlfriend and was yelling at us to follow. To this day, I can still see and hear those slow motion cables bouncing and clanging.

Anyway, it is a stunning thing to see. Saturn will take as much power as you can throw at it. When the seeing is steady, Cassini's division should show up, too. The ring tilt looks good enough to show it. The banding on Saturn is not as distinct as Jupiter, but should be visible. Good luck, been waiting for it to rise a bit earlier.


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Chopin
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5611579 - 01/08/13 09:29 AM

Nice, Mark. That is a terrific representation of what Saturn looks like through my 72ED with the 7mm ortho. One of my favorite ways to view is using my 15x85 bino. It's awesome to split the rings from the body at 15x in stable atmosphere. I can't wait to watch you discover the planet as magnifications and perceptions increase this season.

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stray1
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Chopin]
      #5613158 - 01/09/13 05:33 AM

Hi Norme, Jason,

Yep, I'm definitely gonna make some time for this one (Saturn). I cannot wait for a good night/morning when I can sit down and take an extended (hour or so) look!

Thanks for commenting! (even though this first sketch stinks)



-stray-

Ps-- isn't Mars supposed to be available for study this year? I'm thinking that I really need to invest in some planetary EPs.


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Asbytec
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5613431 - 01/09/13 10:05 AM

Not sure when Mars is due, usually every other year, I believe.

I am totally wrapped up in doubles at the moment, and hope to keep up with your Saturn observations. I will be traveling in the US and will miss Saturn this season.


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Chopin
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5613458 - 01/09/13 10:31 AM

Quote:

Hi Norme, Jason,

Yep, I'm definitely gonna make some time for this one (Saturn). I cannot wait for a good night/morning when I can sit down and take an extended (hour or so) look!

Thanks for commenting! (even though this first sketch stinks)



-stray-

Ps-- isn't Mars supposed to be available for study this year? I'm thinking that I really need to invest in some planetary EPs.




Nah, it doesn't stink! Quite a good sketch, actually.


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Chopin
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5613483 - 01/09/13 10:48 AM

Quote:

Not sure when Mars is due, usually every other year, I believe.

I am totally wrapped up in doubles at the moment, and hope to keep up with your Saturn observations. I will be traveling in the US and will miss Saturn this season.




I was just playing with Stellarium and it seems Mars starts becoming observable in the pre-dawn hour this summer. If Stellarium is accurate, 7/22/2013 looks like a sub 1º conjunction between Mars and Jupiter. If you have access to a horizon (Eastern, of course) low enough you might catch it. Could make an awesome sketching target.

No Saturn, Norme?!? No travel scope?


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Asbytec
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Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Chopin]
      #5613544 - 01/09/13 11:35 AM

Well, naaa...not gonna drag mine along, mount and all. I had to explain to airport officials what my CG5 mount was. It had wires and push buttons, they were suspicious. I showed them the owner's manual.

Saturn, maybe...time permitting.


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