Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home pageAstronomics discounts for Cloudy Nights members
· Get a Cloudy Nights T-Shirt · Submit a Review / Article

Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums

Privacy Policy | Please read our Terms of Service | Signup and Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu… uh, User

Astrophotography and Sketching >> Sketching

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | (show all)
Chopin
Canis Insanus
*****

Reged: 02/03/05

Loc: In the doghouse.
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Chopin]
      #5565474 - 12/11/12 07:26 AM

Oh, and if you are weak in the perceiving the warm hues, you might actually benefit from an 82A filter, if you don't already use one.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
stray1
sage


Reged: 09/03/12

Loc: SW Ohio
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5566972 - 12/12/12 04:39 AM Attachment (22 downloads)

Norme…no…no, man, I didn’t mean to imply that you were implying. I was simply musing about the validity of using photographs as practice models. I’m really wondering what other sketch artists think about this method.

Is it fair, or is it cheating?

I believe that it is helping me map out Jupiter’s more vague features (well, vague to me anyway). It may be purely coincidental but after making my initial “practice” sketches (dated 1 Dec 2012) I can no longer look into my EP without detecting a festoon, or two (and this morning, three!) even at low magnification (25mm x36.4). I think I “might” be onto something here.

Jason, yup, I store both of my rigs out in the “observatory” to keep cool down time to a minimum. The only items I bring inside are my EPs and diagonals.

The sky finally cleared up and I had some really good observing conditions this morning; however, I have discovered that observing after work is not the most optimal time for me. The problem is that by the time I get home from work, Jupiter has already crossed vertex and is settling slowly into a LP zone to my west. I initially have excellent views, but they gradually worsen within 30-45 minutes.

Still, my first 15 minutes with the Big J this session were outstanding!

From N to S:

NPR and NnTB were apparent. They extended down nearly to the NTB and had a chalky gray speckled look to them.

NTB was ghostly, fading out toward either limb; pale russet in color.

NEB appeared thinner than I’ve presented it in previous sketches, but I’m beginning to think that perhaps I was “seeing” it as thicker than it actually is…sort of psychologically modifying it to suit my expectations of how it “should” appear. It was a pale russet color. Dangling from its southern edge were three bluish gray festoons; however, the one nearest the P limb rotated out view early in the session (I included it in the sketch “just because”). At higher magnification, I detected the festoons as being triangular in shape with very vague “tails” trailing toward to P limb. I say “detected” here because this is one of those lucid moment things…sometimes they appeared as triangular with tails but, for the most part, they looked like smudges of darker color that “might” be triangular in form and “might” have tails.

NEZ was wider than I recall; almost white but with a yellowish tint to it. No details to report.

The SEB was quite thin this morning; pale russet in color.. I believe that I detected a couple of darker spots along its southern edge, but I am unsure of this. I’ve included them in my sketch as indicated by the red question marks. I’m fairly certain that something is going on here I just do not know what it is. I am detecting something; resolving nothing.

GRS was not visible during this session.

Now, usually the southern hemisphere of Jupiter is a big void for me with the exception of the SPR which is usually visible as a vague, darker crescent. This morning things were different. The SsTB was apparent. It extended north from the SPR terminating approximately at the halfway point in reference to the southern edge of the SEB. Ordinarily, I do not see the SsTB but this morning it was there.

Additionally, I could make out a definite change of hue between the SsTB and the SPR. Both were a vague, russet color; however, the SPR was slightly darker.

And blah, blah, blah…on with the sketch…for the love of it.



-stray-


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
stray1
sage


Reged: 09/03/12

Loc: SW Ohio
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Chopin]
      #5566976 - 12/12/12 04:49 AM

Quote:

Oh, and if you are weak in the perceiving the warm hues, you might actually benefit from an 82A filter, if you don't already use one.




Hi Jason,

Y'know, out of curiosity, I went back and retook that "test" focusing on the first bar specifically. Perfect score. There is noting wrong with my ability to discern subtle changes in hue. I think I'm just lazy.

I still may check into that filter. thanks!



-stray-


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Chopin
Canis Insanus
*****

Reged: 02/03/05

Loc: In the doghouse.
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5566980 - 12/12/12 04:55 AM

Hey, look at that! Nice detail work. I see you maxed out your exit pupil by taking advantage of the excellent seeing. Interesting dark regions in the SEB. I bet someone can comment on what they might be. FWIW, I often blow out the scale on certain features because my mind wreaks havoc with my pencil.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
stray1
sage


Reged: 09/03/12

Loc: SW Ohio
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Chopin]
      #5566991 - 12/12/12 05:20 AM

Quote:

FWIW, I often blow out the scale on certain features because my mind wreaks havoc with my pencil.




Jason,

I must exaggerate certain things on paper or else my scanner will not detect them. SPR/SsTB in the above sketch is a good example of this (as well as the festoons...they "probably" were not actually that dark or well defined".

Now, if I suddenly claim to start seeing white ovals everywhere, feel free to accuse me of having "fiery trousers" (unless I run them through the "doubt gauntlet"...look, see, doubt, pace, drink coffee, smoke, look again, see, doubt, pace, drink coffee, look again with a different EP/Barlow combination...see...doubt...pace...drink coffee, pace, drink coffee, look...see!).

Not exactly the scientific method, but close.



-stray-


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Asbytec
Guy in a furry hat
*****

Reged: 08/08/07

Loc: La Union, PI
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Chopin]
      #5567002 - 12/12/12 05:31 AM

Hey, is practicing a particular pool shot cheating? I think not. I do it all the time. Sketch on. Anything that gives you an advantage is helpful, not cheating IMO.

Now, Mark, you are getting more out of that refractor. That's so cool. I'd bet it has bit more to deliver, still, given the good moments in seeing and you being there.

I wonder about those features on the SEB, too. There are some down there, but they are very tiny. You may have caught some of the darker features /within/ the SEB itself, but had some difficulty placing them. That's not uncommon. Sometimes weaker features are fleeting and it's hard to pinpoint them. I have no doubt something was there giving you that dark visual impression. Question is, what was it or could it have been. Lemme poke around some recent images of that CM and see what stands out.

The southern hemisphere is the most difficult for me, too. But, you are getting a hold on it. Your sketches are getting better each time, because your observing is improving right before our very eyes. You already have the sketching talent, learning to see your subject is making all the difference. Well done.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Asbytec
Guy in a furry hat
*****

Reged: 08/08/07

Loc: La Union, PI
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5567026 - 12/12/12 06:02 AM

Okay, poked around a bit and found an image at CMI 63 that is 3 days old. If you rotate the planet back a bit, that will be CMI 40-ish. Well, guess what's there? Two festoons and two dark spots "IN" the SEB, one pretty prominent. There is also a dark bottom, but that may be not so easily seen.

See for yourself (second from the bottom by Christopher Pellier.)
http://alpo-j.asahikawa-med.ac.jp/kk12/j121209z.htm

Sometimes we gotta be careful because things change over the course of a few days, sometimes the get bigger and other times they fade. But if I had to guess, those dark spots might be it. Or at least a hint of it. Not conclusive, but inspiring possibility none-the-less. The only way to know for sure is to keep at it.

Edited by Asbytec (12/12/12 06:03 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
azure1961p
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/17/09

Loc: USA
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5568234 - 12/12/12 08:31 PM

It's outright wrong to practice with photos.

When I am at the scope I have my hands covered in charcoal dust. I study I observe then close my eyes walk to where I kno my paper is and I FEEL the festoon FLOWING through me. I twist and turn like so many opposing jets of gas. Then I do it all over again. You must Feeeeel the features and let the electricity flow.

I've never ever looked at a drawing I've done. By the end of the observation I am collapsed at the foot of the ladder lost in reverence to the King.

Try it.

Pete


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Asbytec
Guy in a furry hat
*****

Reged: 08/08/07

Loc: La Union, PI
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5568491 - 12/12/12 11:51 PM

Pete, you're describing being in the zone, being one with Jupiter. It's a cool and very real experience experience. She opens up during those moments.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
stray1
sage


Reged: 09/03/12

Loc: SW Ohio
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: azure1961p]
      #5568654 - 12/13/12 04:05 AM

Quote:

It's outright wrong to practice with photos.

When I am at the scope I have my hands covered in charcoal dust. I study I observe then close my eyes walk to where I kno my paper is and I FEEL the festoon FLOWING through me. I twist and turn like so many opposing jets of gas. Then I do it all over again. You must Feeeeel the features and let the electricity flow.

I've never ever looked at a drawing I've done. By the end of the observation I am collapsed at the foot of the ladder lost in reverence to the King.

Try it.

Pete




You might be onto something, Pete. It might be wrong for me to use photos, but not because they do not allow for the moments that you describe at the EP. I could very well be screwing up my ability to perceive here.

I was reviewing yesterday’s sketch this afternoon before leaving for work. Although I thought it looked pretty good initially, something wasn’t sitting right with it after a night’s sleep. Then I realized…the tails of the festoons are pointing TOWARD the P limb. This is incorrect. In photos and in other observers sketches the tails point away from the P limb. But, during that “lucid” moment that I described in my OP, this is how I “saw” them; pointing toward the P limb.

Now, go back and look at my first practice sketch (p.2 of this thread dated 12/01/12). This was drawn from a photograph. Note the festoon and the direction that it is pointing. Obviously, the P limb in the photo is to the right. Next, scroll up to my computer generated sketch dated 11/24/12. Take note of the NEB detail that I circled and noted as “not sure (maybe yes)” in red. Although, I did not realize it at the time, this is a festoon and it is slanted away from the P limb (the left side of the sketch).

Interesting. Before using photos to practice on, I was seeing the festoons oriented correctly. I’m now seeing the festoons on a regular basis and, at least this one time, they have appeared “flipped” in my mind’s eye. It is like I’ve trained my mind to see them as I drew them in the practice sketch; for right or wrong. What I’m wondering is if now that I realize what has happened, will my mind kick into “auto-correct” mode during those lucid moments? Even so, will I be able to trust those lucid moments now that I’ve corrupted my mind?

Incidentally, I detected several festoons this evening while observing the transit of Ganymede’s shadow across the southern hemisphere. They did not appear to be oriented in either direction. They were simply dark smears.

Maybe this is my mind’s way of telling me: “I’m not going to show you anything more until you get your act together, Buddy Roo.”

Oh yeah, Norm, I spotted some additional dark patches along the southern edge of the SEB this morning. Definitely (maybe) there, but I’m not going to attempt a sketch unless I observe them in following sessions. I've reached a point where I no longer trust myself.



-stray-

Edited by stray1 (12/13/12 04:40 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Asbytec
Guy in a furry hat
*****

Reged: 08/08/07

Loc: La Union, PI
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5568696 - 12/13/12 05:51 AM

Well, I have seen festoons that appeared to point the wrong way. I guess they are not, really, but sometimes the way they jet into the EZ can make them appear to. It's really just the interplay between hues that gives that effect. Often there really is no defined streak following the winds toward the following limb, just a tangle of darker albedo jetting south. So, it can appear to do almost anything.

Trust is a big component. Really, there are times I do not trust myself. So, images help confirm those things we think we saw. Soon, though, you will learn to trust our eyes a little more. Recently, I decided I saw something and wasn't gonna let an image tell me otherwise. It comes with experience and practice.

As for cheating, I cheat all the time. For example, I cheat by knowing there is a white oval south of the GRS. I am seeing it more frequently. So, even though I noted it, I still "practice" observing it to get a feel for how it comes and goes with seeing. The other ovals will behave the same way, so observing an easy one might help observe a more difficult one.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
stray1
sage


Reged: 09/03/12

Loc: SW Ohio
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5570292 - 12/14/12 03:36 AM Attachment (25 downloads)

Weird session this morning viewing-wise.

Transparency was really good; no clouds, no haze. Seeing was also good, but for some odd reason everything seemed washed out. Even the Pleiades (which usually “blaze”) looked blah through my 7x35s.

Even Jupiter looked paler than usual, almost black and white in appearance, and its features were vague. I detected little-to-no color in the central belts…maybe a faded terra cotta at best.

I detected 2 (possibly 3) festoons and it appears that the mental flip-flop that I experienced on the 12th has auto-corrected itself. The larger, leading festoon had a discernible “lean” away from the P limb. The middle one was just a vague smear of dark, and the third “possible” was sort of on again/off again. I believe that it was there, but am unsure. I indicated it with a dash near the F limb.

There appeared to be a couple of darker spots along the southern edge of the SEB so I am going to go out on a limb and say that I am definitely picking something up in this area.

The southern hemisphere had a faint, gray tint to it that terminated just south of the SEB, but for some reason the darker crescent of the SPR was all but invisible. This is out of the ordinary as I am usually only able to detect the SPR while everything north of it (as far as the southern edge of the SEB) looks vacant.

Additionally, there appeared to be a slightly darker “scratch” along the northern edge of this region. For sketching purposes I had to exaggerate it slightly or else my scanner will not pick it up. Honestly, I had to exaggerate all of the features as they were so vague this morning.

As I stated in the beginning…weird.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Asbytec
Guy in a furry hat
*****

Reged: 08/08/07

Loc: La Union, PI
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5570332 - 12/14/12 05:19 AM

Mike, still wondering what those darker SEB features are. I'd bet they are actually embedded in the SEB. There are some trailing the GRS which, I believe, is just over the preceding limb. The first clue of that is the "scratch" in the south.

Surely weather is playing a role washing out Jupiter and the Pleiades.

I am really eager to observe tonight. That color phenom has my complete attention. Very curious if I will be able to define the SEB a little better. But, man, the GRS will be transiting. That means working feverishly on a sketch, or maybe just concentrating on the SEB.

Well, girlfriend has to dress me. Gotta run. Nice to see you sketching your observations, Mike.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
stray1
sage


Reged: 09/03/12

Loc: SW Ohio
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5575102 - 12/17/12 01:54 AM Attachment (10 downloads)

Cloudy/overcast most of the weekend. Cleared up a bit this evening (16-17 Dec 2012) but there were still quite a few heavy areas to the ceiling. Intermittent views of Jupiter through “scudders” early on before a reasonably wide gap allowed for about 20 minutes of relatively unobstructed observation. Lessened transparency cut down on a great deal of the glare from the planet. Seeing was really fine; good focus.

Most all of previously observed features were apparent. “Scratch” reported on 14 December along the northern edge of STB was not present. Areas north of the NTB were smaller, fainter than usual. Festoons apparent at low magnification. The larger one definitely had a triangular shape to it at higher magnification. The smaller; more of a “hint”. Both appeared grayish blue in color.

Focused chiefly on the EZ/SEB region(s) on the lookout for previously observed darker “spots”. No such spots were apparent; however, lighter areas were detected within the SEB. These areas are represented by pale smudges in the sketch as their faintness did not allow for precise placement. Maybe detected “something” going on in the center of the EZ during a moment of lucid detection. Unsure of this. Will attempt verification if anyone posts AP on the ALPO site.



-stray-


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
stray1
sage


Reged: 09/03/12

Loc: SW Ohio
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5575108 - 12/17/12 02:09 AM

Quote:

Mike, still wondering what those darker SEB features are. I'd bet they are actually embedded in the SEB. There are some trailing the GRS which, I believe, is just over the preceding limb. The first clue of that is the "scratch" in the south.

Surely weather is playing a role washing out Jupiter and the Pleiades.

I am really eager to observe tonight. That color phenom has my complete attention. Very curious if I will be able to define the SEB a little better. But, man, the GRS will be transiting. That means working feverishly on a sketch, or maybe just concentrating on the SEB.

Well, girlfriend has to dress me. Gotta run. Nice to see you sketching your observations, Mike.




Mike? You trying to be a funny guy, Norme?

Yes, the weather probably did play a role in washing everything out. Transparency was excellent. Looking at Jupiter in the EP was like staring into a pen light at the doctor's office. Heck, I could have drawn a sketch just using that light to see by...



-stray-

Ps--danke for informing me of your "dressing routine". Next time warn me before hand so I can put on some 70s porno music; played backwards, with Satanic messages.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Asbytec
Guy in a furry hat
*****

Reged: 08/08/07

Loc: La Union, PI
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5575153 - 12/17/12 04:25 AM

MARK! Yike, how embarrassing. Sorry about that.

You're hitting a stride, Mark. Your write up sounds like an observation, describing what you saw and what you think. And it's apparent to me, you're milking your refractor nicely.

Yea, getting old and helpless. I am making strides, though, dressed myself today. Just so ya know. But, I have been so focused on Jupiter at the expense of everything, including clean shorts and letting the trash pile up. You'll see.

(Are these comments becoming part of a permanent record in your Sketchbook? )


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Chopin
Canis Insanus
*****

Reged: 02/03/05

Loc: In the doghouse.
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5575236 - 12/17/12 06:32 AM

Quote:

Ps--danke for informing me of your "dressing routine". Next time warn me before hand so I can put on some 70s porno music; played backwards, with Satanic messages.




Hey Mark, with 70's porn music you don't need to add that stuff. The music pretty much stands by itself.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Asbytec
Guy in a furry hat
*****

Reged: 08/08/07

Loc: La Union, PI
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: Chopin]
      #5575265 - 12/17/12 07:15 AM

I think I have an 8-track with some porn oldies on it. Sound track, I think. Ah, the memories, cruisin' with my girl...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
stray1
sage


Reged: 09/03/12

Loc: SW Ohio
Re: Stray's Sketchbook new [Re: stray1]
      #5578306 - 12/19/12 02:15 AM

http://alpo-j.asahikawa-med.ac.jp/kk12/j121217z.htm

The faint marking in the EZ is what I believe that I saw the other morning for a second or two. This is, of course, the EB; a feature that I have never given a second thought.

What I'm wondering is: if I think that I saw something that I wasn't even looking for, is it possible that I imagined it? Is it probable?

http://alpo-j.asahikawa-med.ac.jp/kk12/j121216z.htm

Second set by Mishina. These two photos represent Jupiter as I might see it in good viewing through the EP. The colors are accurate though more saturated all the way around.

Based on these I attribute the lighter shading along the north edge of the SEB against the darker shading of the belt itself as explaining the white "smudges" and the dark "spots" that I thought that I was seeing in earlier reports.

Of course, there is also the photo by Comolli (bottom pic) that clearly shows two dark spots along the southern edge of the SEB which closely match my sketch of the 14th.

Currently, I am uncertain of anything. Once I get another string of clear nights I will attempt to confirm through further observation.



-stray-


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Asbytec
Guy in a furry hat
*****

Reged: 08/08/07

Loc: La Union, PI
Re: Stray's Sketchbook [Re: stray1]
      #5578368 - 12/19/12 04:09 AM

It's an interesting topic, Mark, about what we think we see. Especially when we're not even looking for it. Actually, that happens all the time. Something will just show itself unexpectedly. If you happened to be looking in that area, you get lucky. Really, much of Jupiter is not "easy" to see. It just doesn't fall onto your retina. The main belts, the GRS, some festoons are all pretty easy. The rest can be quite challenging and require increasing amounts of time and opportunity. But, with time, you can fill a sketch with those more challenging sightings. And more often than not, be right.

In my experience, more often than not, something is there. It might not always be clear, it is often hard to place and describe accurately. And it's difficult to see, of course, if you wait for it to appear again. But, I suspect it comes down to confidence. Observing images helps build confidence, often they will show something was indeed there. So, over time, when those unexpected observations happen you can be reasonably confident the fleeting feature was seen because you are more confident in your abilities.

A perfect example happened last night. Along the northern edge of the SEB I briefly caught three protrusions sticking up into the EZ. I was stunned at first, but very sure I saw them. I saw them well enough to actually count them. So my level of confidence was high. Upon further examination (/after/ posting the sketch that included them), they were indeed there. (IMO, sketch first, check later. Using an image to gain confidence is one thing, using it to confirm before sketching is robbing you of the observation.)

Now, there are times when looking for something specific helps to see it. For example, white ovals in the southern hemisphere. Seeing these tiny features, it really helps to understand how they behave and, at first, exactly where they are. Once you realize how small they are and how they appear (or not) with seeing, it becomes easier to spot them anywhere. I often study a big one to understand how it looks and behaves and expect the others to follow suit. That behavior adds to confidence of your sightings despite them being difficult to see.

S0, yea, if you catch something unexpected, more often than not something caused it. It is entirely probably it was imagined. It's also entirely probable it was real. How do you know at the time? I guess that depends on how familiar you are with Jupiter and your own level of confidence. Sketch it, and ask forgiveness later. Don't be afraid to be wrong.

Edited by Asbytec (12/19/12 04:37 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | (show all)


Extra information
1 registered and 4 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  cildarith, JayinUT, WOBentley 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 5238

Jump to

CN Forums Home


Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics