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Equipment Discussions >> Electronically Assisted Astronomy

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gary-sue69
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Which one will work best?
      #6335152 - 01/25/14 03:52 PM

Which one will work best, with a mallincam X2EX with Class 0 CCD sensor, In light polluted skies?
AT130 130mm f/6 FPL-53 ED triplet apochromatic refractor
Meade ACF 14" f/8 Advanced Coma-Free
Thanks.


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A. Viegas
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: gary-sue69]
      #6335160 - 01/25/14 04:00 PM

Gary-

Both of those telescopes are great options. The 14" will grab more photons but will give you a much smaller field of view. The 5" APO will give you wider field and allow you to go after larger DSOs. Both will require focal reduction, with the 14" requiring more than the faster refractor.

If you have mounts for both or can mount them together, then I would recommend you get a second camera like one of the newer lower cost ones and run the setups together.

That way you can get the best of both telescopes with minimal effort.

Al


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gary-sue69
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: A. Viegas]
      #6335310 - 01/25/14 05:21 PM

yea, I wish I could have both the meade 14" would be a lx600, but I went to the forums and it looks like they are putting mirror locks on them now. I don't know if this is for shipping or for mirror flop, I am waiting to find out. if I go with an at130 I will use the meade lx850. but I was wondering which would be better to use with light pollution with the mallincam.

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David PavlichAdministrator
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: gary-sue69]
      #6335352 - 01/25/14 05:36 PM

For video astronomy, aperture is king. And since you'll be reducing it anyway, the long focal length of the big Meade will just overpower the refractor. For the conventional, everyday objects, either would be fine, but when you start to poke around more distant, diffuse objects, the brute power of the Meade will be the ticket!

David


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gary-sue69
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6335376 - 01/25/14 05:51 PM

hi David. yes, I agree. but I was just curious if the Meade, being so big, would collect more light pollution and interfere with the objects I am looking at. I definitely like nebulas, galaxies, planets, but not so much double stars or star clusters.

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David PavlichAdministrator
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: gary-sue69]
      #6335462 - 01/25/14 06:50 PM

One of my favorite Mallincam stories happened at an outreach event. We were at a school with typical lights around it, the Moon was about 1/4 and we were about 500 yards from a lit up plaza parking lot. Jack had his venerable orange tube C8 focused on the Horsehead and it was as just as clear as can be! Plenty of light pollution, but it didn't seem to have any major effect on the video viewing.

I know if I ever get into video stuff, it'll be with a C14 or something similar.

David


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gary-sue69
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6335479 - 01/25/14 07:04 PM

thanks for the info. I do like mallincam, but i am still having trouble deciding on the scope type. i hope to hear something about the mirror lock and flop on the meade so i can choose. i am going to make a remote observatory, so i can control everything from in the house, and i do not want to have to go outside to manually adjust it.

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jrcrillyAdministrator
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: gary-sue69]
      #6335529 - 01/25/14 07:40 PM

Quote:

i hope to hear something about the mirror lock and flop on the meade so i can choose. i am going to make a remote observatory, so i can control everything from in the house, and i do not want to have to go outside to manually adjust it.




Mirror lock won't prevent remote operation, as you will require remote focusing for anything you use remotely. Focus WILL change as the temperature drops during the night in Michigan.

They appear to have implemented mirror locks on the later 14" and maybe the 12" tubes. If you remote the internal focuser you won't be able to use the mirror locks. If you add an external focuser you can use the mirror locks. Mirror locks are generally desirable for high resolution imaging with an SCT. In your case, the extremely low resolution of video observing wouldn't be affected (especially since the different focuser design of the F/8 Meade OTA reduces flop considerably). If you get one with locks you can leave the lock disengaged and remote the internal focuser if you want to. I'm currently using a 12" without locks for high res imaging with no issues; a buddy uses a 14" similarly.

The answer to your original question is: whichever one delivers the FOV you want. It's not as though you could capture the same image with either one but one would work better. They will capture DIFFERENT images so you select the one that delivers the image you would rather get.


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A. Viegas
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: gary-sue69]
      #6335567 - 01/25/14 08:06 PM

Sorry Gary, I read your question as if you already had both scopes!

I have a CPC1100 which i control remotely from inside the weekend house. I have a smaller C80ED or ETX70 mounted piggyback which in turn allows me to have a wider field of view when I am using two cameras (that way I can switch from one to the other seamlessly). The APO or the Meade are expensive scopes. At that price point there are many options to get you a very good combination of FOV, photon gathering power and flexibility. My advice would be to work backwards a little. How much money do you want to spend? What is your absolute IDEAL situation in terms of equipment and flexibility? This way you can determine the best combination of equipment to maximize your budget.

Al


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gary-sue69
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: jrcrilly]
      #6335577 - 01/25/14 08:11 PM

thanks john, more great info. so I take that the mirror lock was put on the meade for mirror flop. I am a little disappointed that they changed the design. I thought about the meade electronic micro-focuser that plugs into the base, if I decide to go that route. I am still concerned with light pollution with such a large scope, I heard the bigger the scope, the more light pollution it lets in while using a mallincam. so I am hoping anyone with any experience can let me know what issues or successes they have had.

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jrcrillyAdministrator
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: gary-sue69]
      #6335601 - 01/25/14 08:26 PM

Quote:

thanks john, more great info. so I take that the mirror lock was put on the meade for mirror flop. I am a little disappointed that they changed the design. I thought about the meade electronic micro-focuser that plugs into the base, if I decide to go that route.




The lock-equipped models are shipped with the Meade external focuser. Most imagers select a higher precision stepper-driven unit instead, though (I use a Moonlight). The Meade unit would probably be OK for video. I can't think of any conditions under aperture would be a disadvantage. In my red zone location aperture improves visual use and has no apparent negative effect for imaging (I shoot through apertures of 65mm through 14").


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: jrcrilly]
      #6335639 - 01/25/14 09:06 PM

For fainter stars, raw aperture.

For smaller objects, longer focal length.

For lower surface brightness, faster f/ratio.

No one scope is best at everything. You really must decide based on the target's characteristics. The most important being size, as this sets focal length, and to a certain degree aperture.


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gary-sue69
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #6335698 - 01/25/14 10:03 PM

thanks john, but if I buy a focuser that costs that much more after the setup, my wife might put a stake through my heart...:) I think i'll have to use the meade...thanks for the info. what's your thoughts of lx600 or the lx850?

thanks glen for the info. I understand all that. but with the mallincam I heard at one point the bigger the aperture the more the light pollution affects the camera. at this point I have sold my equipment, including multiple scopes, many times. you would think I would have this down by now...:) I just want to get it right this time...before my wife kills me this time...:)


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dragonslayer1
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: gary-sue69]
      #6335719 - 01/25/14 10:24 PM

why not look at the r/c tubes to go along with your camera, Kasey

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jrcrillyAdministrator
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: gary-sue69]
      #6335822 - 01/25/14 11:54 PM

Quote:

what's your thoughts of lx600 or the lx850?




I haven't used the LX600 but I've seen them and they appear to be a significant upgrade to the LX200 models I have used. I remember fondly the days when I could shoot horizon to horizon without scripting procedures to handle meridian flips! I do have a compelling preference for OTA flexibility, though, so the LX850 is the only one that will do what I want. Mine has been here nearly a year and has done a nice job so far.


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gary-sue69
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: jrcrilly]
      #6335862 - 01/26/14 12:35 AM

Thanks john. I am leaning to the Meade LX850 with WO132FLT F7 Triplet APO, MallinCam XTREME X2, all though this is tough choice.

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Dragon Man
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6335883 - 01/26/14 01:08 AM

Quote:

For video astronomy, aperture is king. And since you'll be reducing it anyway, the long focal length of the big Meade will just overpower the refractor. For the conventional, everyday objects, either would be fine, but when you start to poke around more distant, diffuse objects, the brute power of the Meade will be the ticket!

David




Sorry but no David.
That is a common misconception coming from years of peoples Imaging habits.
With Imaging, Aperture often is King.

With Video, Aperture is NOT.
It can actually work 'against' you.

With Video, 'Focal Length' is the most important factor to keep track of.
If you want to video observe small objects, use a slow scope with a medium to long focal length (often meaning a larger aperture).
If you want a wider FOV use a Focal Reducer.
If you want to video observe very large objects like the Sun, Moon, large Nebula, large Galaxy Clusters and open star clusters, use a short focal length, not a fast focal ratio.
For example, a 12" f5 is fast but is too long (1200mm) in focal length to assist in wide FOV video observing.

Whereas, a 600mm focal length scope will give a much better result, especially when focal reduced to 300-400mm.
The most common scopes to fill this spot is the ED80 refractor and 120mm f5 Achromat Refractors, and SCT's with Hyperstar (but not because of its aperture, but because of its short focal length).
There are also optimised RC scopes that work well because they have been set up for Video work.
They are called 'VRC telescopes'.

The trick is to get the focal length down, not necessarily the aperture up. Video Astronomy cameras are sensitive enough to not be handicapped by less aperture.


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Relativist
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: Dragon Man]
      #6335923 - 01/26/14 01:45 AM

It's not the only one out there, but take the Mallincam for example, it's roughly equivalent to using an 8mm 50 degree FOV eyepiece from what I understand. So you can see why focal length of the scope you chose is so important. From what I've seen 8"-11" SCTs are a sweet spot.

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Chris A
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: Relativist]
      #6336814 - 01/26/14 02:30 PM

I 2nd that Curtis. An 8 to 11" scope at an F4 or faster seems to be a very sweet spot for the 1/2" CCD sensor for a decent image scale, resolution and FOV.

Chris A


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gary-sue69
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: Chris A]
      #6337374 - 01/26/14 06:52 PM

well, I just order my mount. The Meade LX-850. I got $1000. off because it was an open box from Astronomics. I am leaning toward a William Optics FLT-132 APO Triplet Refractor with 3.5" WO Focuser. But NOT for sure.

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A. Viegas
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: gary-sue69]
      #6337545 - 01/26/14 08:42 PM

Gary - The LX850 is a great mount, congrats!!

The FLT-132 is an excellent APO. If you are planning on doing some serious AP in the future its a great scope. If you are just going to do video-astronomy then its probably overkill from what you can achieve using a similar sized Achro or even a larger SCT and focal reducer.

For the price of the FLT-132 I would instead get a SCT OTA 8-12" and a smaller 80-100mm refractor to piggyback on top. Giving you the best of both worlds...

just my 2c

Al


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RichardHC
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: Dragon Man]
      #6337733 - 01/26/14 10:17 PM

"With Video, 'Focal Length' is the most important factor to keep track of......."

Good dissertation Ken. I'm very new to this but already I can see that having a range of FLs available on the basic instrument is going to be the way to go.

I had looked at RC scopes and there's no doubt they produce a wide aberration-free field but with a 1/2 or 1/3 inch CCD (or CMOS) you aren't using a wide field so my decision has been to uses a fast Newtonian (8" F4 GSO Imaging Newtonian) which has the other major advantage of being cheap.


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Relativist
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: RichardHC]
      #6337947 - 01/27/14 12:29 AM

That's exactly why I chose the AT8IN. You will be happy to know that my MCX2 comes to focus without issue.

In fact, I was considering for a while seeing if I could get a 10" f/3 made. The main reason I didn't get that is time & money. They are not readily available and custom jobs.


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David PavlichAdministrator
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: Relativist]
      #6338254 - 01/27/14 08:23 AM

Quote:

That's exactly why I chose the AT8IN. You will be happy to know that my MCX2 comes to focus without issue.

In fact, I was considering for a while seeing if I could get a 10" f/3 made. The main reason I didn't get that is time & money. They are not readily available and custom jobs.




While it's quite spendy, the 10" PowerNewt is f2.84. And if you remove the flattener/corrector, it's a standard f4. It's made for 65mm back focus with the flattener in place.

David


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gary-sue69
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: Dragon Man]
      #6338442 - 01/27/14 10:25 AM

Quote:

Quote:

For video astronomy, aperture is king. And since you'll be reducing it anyway, the long focal length of the big Meade will just overpower the refractor. For the conventional, everyday objects, either would be fine, but when you start to poke around more distant, diffuse objects, the brute power of the Meade will be the ticket!

David




Sorry but no David.
That is a common misconception coming from years of peoples Imaging habits.
With Imaging, Aperture often is King.

With Video, Aperture is NOT.
It can actually work 'against' you.

With Video, 'Focal Length' is the most important factor to keep track of.
If you want to video observe small objects, use a slow scope with a medium to long focal length (often meaning a larger aperture).
If you want a wider FOV use a Focal Reducer.
If you want to video observe very large objects like the Sun, Moon, large Nebula, large Galaxy Clusters and open star clusters, use a short focal length, not a fast focal ratio.
For example, a 12" f5 is fast but is too long (1200mm) in focal length to assist in wide FOV video observing.

Whereas, a 600mm focal length scope will give a much better result, especially when focal reduced to 300-400mm.
The most common scopes to fill this spot is the ED80 refractor and 120mm f5 Achromat Refractors, and SCT's with Hyperstar (but not because of its aperture, but because of its short focal length).
There are also optimised RC scopes that work well because they have been set up for Video work.
They are called 'VRC telescopes'.

The trick is to get the focal length down, not necessarily the aperture up. Video Astronomy cameras are sensitive enough to not be handicapped by less aperture.





Hi Guys. I am a little confused, From rocks web site. They do look sweet, but even though they are built for rocks video camera. They have long focal length. VRC12T 2432 mm focal length F/8 Here is the info from his site.

Pictured Above is the New VRC12T Now in Stock!
After a long wait, MallinCam has received its first batch of VRC12T (Video Ritchey-Chretien) 12" optical truss tube. At 52.8 pounds including the supplied dual speed focuser, this work of art is truly within the reach of the most discriminating Live Video CCD observer and Videographer. It also works for any large sensor DSLR, Cooled CCD cameras. At F/8, It will provide excellent imaging platform.

* Center spotted secondary mirror made of Quartz with 99% reflectivity non-tarnishing multi-layer dielectric mirror coatings.

* 3 built-in cooling fans in rear cell.

* Two inch dual-speed Crayford focuser with 1.25" adapter.

* Carbon fiber with Serrurier truss tube design with CNC-machined stainless steel and aluminum components.

* Low thermal expansion quartz primary mirror with 99% reflectivity non-tarnishing multi-layer dielectric mirror coatings.

* Two Large D type "Losmandy" Dove tail on top and bottom.

* Comes with 3 sets of spacer rings to achieve perfect focus with any imaging cameras.



* 2432 mm focal length F/8



Intro Price:

Retail price 4995.99. MallinCam Intro price on the first batch 3999.99 US funds plus shipping


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mclewis1
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: gary-sue69]
      #6338506 - 01/27/14 10:54 AM

Gary,

There's nothing really special about the VRCs ... they are the popular GSO RC scopes with the primary mirror moved slightly. There is nothing unique about them with respect to Rock's cameras. Rock's cameras use the industry standard C or C/S mount sensor spacing just like virtually every other video camera on the market.

The VRCs and regular GSO RCs will work with any video cameras and any appropriate focal reducers. The slightly different placement of the primary mirror means slightly different use of the spacer rings. For example with a particular setup you may need two rings on the regular GSO model and maybe only one on the VRC.

The VRCs may get a once over from Rock before shipping ... but that also means a scope will have traveled around a bit more than a US sourced GSO RC scope for a US customer.

The $4K price is certainly a very good price, but I would first make very certain that you can get one at that price since there is some friction between Rock and GSO over that number.


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gary-sue69
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: mclewis1]
      #6338576 - 01/27/14 11:42 AM

Thanks Mark. good info

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David PavlichAdministrator
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: Dragon Man]
      #6338666 - 01/27/14 12:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

For video astronomy, aperture is king. And since you'll be reducing it anyway, the long focal length of the big Meade will just overpower the refractor. For the conventional, everyday objects, either would be fine, but when you start to poke around more distant, diffuse objects, the brute power of the Meade will be the ticket!

David




Sorry but no David.
That is a common misconception coming from years of peoples Imaging habits.
With Imaging, Aperture often is King.

With Video, Aperture is NOT.
It can actually work 'against' you.

With Video, 'Focal Length' is the most important factor to keep track of.
If you want to video observe small objects, use a slow scope with a medium to long focal length (often meaning a larger aperture).
If you want a wider FOV use a Focal Reducer.
If you want to video observe very large objects like the Sun, Moon, large Nebula, large Galaxy Clusters and open star clusters, use a short focal length, not a fast focal ratio.
For example, a 12" f5 is fast but is too long (1200mm) in focal length to assist in wide FOV video observing.

Whereas, a 600mm focal length scope will give a much better result, especially when focal reduced to 300-400mm.
The most common scopes to fill this spot is the ED80 refractor and 120mm f5 Achromat Refractors, and SCT's with Hyperstar (but not because of its aperture, but because of its short focal length).
There are also optimised RC scopes that work well because they have been set up for Video work.
They are called 'VRC telescopes'.

The trick is to get the focal length down, not necessarily the aperture up. Video Astronomy cameras are sensitive enough to not be handicapped by less aperture.





I guess those images I saw from someone's really big reflector were anomalies then. So what you're saying is that a C8 because it has great focal length is going to give better results than 20" f3.3 Newt?

Sorry, but if I were to do video astronomy and because I'd have but one telescope, it would be the biggest scope that I could stuff into my 8X8 rolloff.

David


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jrcrillyAdministrator
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: gary-sue69]
      #6338859 - 01/27/14 02:06 PM

Quote:

With Imaging, Aperture often is King.

With Video, Aperture is NOT.
It can actually work 'against' you.




Imaging is imaging. The chip doesn't know what kind of camera it is in. Aperture can never work against you. Focal length determines what image you will capture. Aperture then determines the S/N ratio attainable for a given exposure time because for a given focal length aperture determines F ratio. For a given focal length, smaller aperture = slower optics and vice versa.


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mclewis1
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6338863 - 01/27/14 02:07 PM

David,

I agree, I'd also want the biggest aperture I could handle in a permanent or semi permanent setup (with accurate tracking, fast f ratio, and good accessibility). It would simply give me the most targets to view but if I wanted more flexibility for things like also showing others many of the show pieces in the sky I would prefer the C8 running at f3-4. That shorter focal length would nicely frame the bigger popular objects like M42, M8, M7, etc.

To me a C8 with a variety of focal reducers and Barlows and something like a Mallincam video camera is the goldilocks of video setups (not too big, not too small ... just right). Under reasonable skies it'll go deep enough to show challenging Hickson and some of the Arp type objects while still offering a great fov for those larger showpiece objects. With a 2-3x Barlow it's planetary images are very crowd pleasing as well.

It's aperture and focal length are enough to observe a wide variety of objects, and because the C8 is also light weight and compact it can be comfortably mounted on entry level goto EQ or Alt Az mounts. With that portability I'd be more inclined to quickly get it setup even on those marginal nights (so more observing) plus I'd be comfortable taking the setup to local outreach opportunities or good dark sites.

Sure a 20" would let me get finer details out of small galaxies and planetary nebula and show more stars in the globular clusters but if I also want a scope to use outside of my backyard something like that c8 is probably going to be my first choice.


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Dragon Man
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Re: Which one will work best? *DELETED* new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6340319 - 01/28/14 07:36 AM

David, I do NOT say small Aperture is the best for Video.

I am saying Large Aperture isn't King. My words were "With Video, 'Focal Length' is the most important factor to keep track of."
'To keep track of'. If you want the video view to be clearer brighter and with more contrast, get the focal length down, and that is usually achieved by reducing the aperture. Larger apertures give longer focal lengths.

How many people own 20" f3.3 Newts? That is a whopping 1676mm focal length! Great for looking at tiny Planetary nebulas and inside Lunar Craters.

And your statement of "Sorry, but if I were to do video astronomy and because I'd have but one telescope, it would be the biggest scope that I could stuff into my 8X8 rolloff" tells me you have no real idea of the problems you will face, until you actually try using a mega scope with a very small sensitive 1/2" video camera sensor.
Unless you enjoy a FOV of only 10 Arcminutes or less, and low contrast.
Even in Imaging, an Imager captures a Large FOV because of the size of the Sensor. With the lack of a large format sensor we (Video Astronomers) compensate by creating a larger FOV on a small sensor by reducing the focal length.

I am not saying don't use large aperture scopes.

And to John Crilly,
You say:
"Imaging is imaging. The chip doesn't know what kind of camera it is in. Aperture can never work against you. Focal length determines what image you will capture. Aperture then determines the S/N ratio attainable for a given exposure time because for a given focal length aperture determines F ratio. For a given focal length, smaller aperture = slower optics and vice versa."

To start with, you say "Imaging is Imaging". But we aren't 'Imaging'. We are observing. S/N ratio is an Imaging term we aren't highly concerned with like Imagers are. With the cameras used in Video, Aperture CAN be your worst enemy if you go too large. Unless you want a close-up of very small objects.

Small aperture = fast optics because of the shorter focal length. We aren't talking about focal ratio.
As an example, 2 scopes with the same focal ratio, f5, give totally different FOV results because of their Focal lengths. One is 600mm focal length, the other is 1200mm focal length.
Yes, the one with 1200mm focal length is going to collect more light, but also give a very narrow FOV.

Because of the high sensitivity of the sensors used in Video Astronomy Cameras you don't need the HUGE apertures that are preferred with Traditional CCD Imaging.
What is preferred (and often necessary) is a wider FOV to allow the sensor to give a brighter image, with smaller sharper stars and more contrast. Quickly.

And your other statement "The chip doesn't know what kind of camera it is in."
You are assuming that all sensors are equal.
Video sensors are wayyy more sensitive, needing less integration time. Which means even small aperture scopes will collect the light faster than an Imaging camera.

Even the Mallincam VRC Scopes have a medium to large aperture but they have also been optimised to work well with Focal Reducers to give a nice FOV. Rock Mallin has spent a lot of time on research to make sure they work well and give a good FOV.
And obviously Large aperture SCT's work very well when used with Hyperstar or heavy focal reduction.
They work to bring the Focal Length down.

This is not a competition between Imaging and Video. It is about the difference between Imaging and Video.
The Video sensors, being more sensitive, need far less light collecting time. They can turn an 8" scope into the equivalent of a much larger scope.
So the user doesn't need to go bigger, the camera will do it for him.

I hope this post isn't deleted as readers may learn from it, about the fact that Aperture isn't the King with Video, just a nice thing to have if you want a tighter FOV.
Video works well at almost any aperture, but aperture IS NOT King.


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David PavlichAdministrator
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: Dragon Man]
      #6340514 - 01/28/14 09:49 AM

My exception to your answer is the "large aperture can work against you". Why is it that I see terrific images on NSN from guys using C11s and C14s? All I can judge by is what I see on the screen. Optical theory is great, but when I see terrific images on the screen and they're coming from big scopes, I have to assume that the combination works well. That's the basis for my reply, nothing more, nothing less.

David


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Dragon Man
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6340612 - 01/28/14 10:38 AM

Quote:

My exception to your answer is the "large aperture can work against you".
David




Yes, just like I said. 'Can', not 'Does'.
My exception is your unfounded statement: "For video astronomy, aperture is king" when it isn't.
Yes, I too see 14" SCT's giving fantastic results with Focal Reducers or Hyperstar. Tom is a great example.
But try using the same camera in a huge Reflector. The bigger you go the harder it gets to get a decent result. So how can that be 'King'?

You will also find that larger Reflectors have trouble reaching 'In' focus with these cameras especially with a Focal reducer.
I am not just making this stuff up. I have tried all this, and read results of other peoples attempts too.
If you get the chance to use a Video Astronomy camera, try it in all sorts of aperture sizes, different focal lengths, and styles of scopes (SCT, Reflector, Maksutov, etc), and then see if you still agree with your own statement "aperture is king".

I hope you do get to try Video Astronomy as it is very rewarding in an Instant Gratifying way.


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scopenitout
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: Dragon Man]
      #6340764 - 01/28/14 11:33 AM

Using my C-11 and Mallincam Xtreme with a Hyperstar lens, I'd say that combination hits the "sweet spot" for aperture/focal reduction.

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gary-sue69
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: Dragon Man]
      #6340782 - 01/28/14 11:40 AM

Thanks to all. I have learned a lot, like always on CN. more info I get the better decision I can make. keep it up an thanks.

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Chris A
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Re: Which one will work best? *DELETED* new [Re: Dragon Man]
      #6340835 - 01/28/14 12:12 PM

Just thought I would jump in here and add my thoughts about this. David you must remember that video cameras use much smaller CCD sensors than actual CCD imaging cameras. By having a 1/2" sensor or even smaller makes the FOV very limited for most DSO's. Unless you plan on only observing planetary nebulas or certain NGC's or PGC's type galaxies, you really need to have two very different scopes. Yes using a C14 in Hyperstar mode for an f/1.9 or 675 mm focal length will provide more resolution than a C8 in Hyperstar mode for an f/2 or 406 mm focal length, but the photons will be collected onto the CCD sensor at almost the same rate, however, the C8 will have slightly less then 2 x the FOV. Many of the very common DSO's require when using a 1/2" CCD sensor 200 to 500 mm focal length in order to fit the object of interest into the FOV and even one of the largest **fastest** scopes like the C14 Hyperstar cannot fit the bill. This is why the 70 to 100 mm aperture refractor tend to be so popular amount us video observers and yes we have larger aperture scopes for the smaller objects.

Aperture is only king when it comes down to viewing into your eyepiece using your eye(s). When it comes down to video observing aperture benefits mainly globular clusters and the extra needed resolution only when the object can fit the FOV.

Chris A
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gary-sue69
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Re: Which one will work best? *DELETED* new [Re: Chris A]
      #6341027 - 01/28/14 01:32 PM

so a Meade LX850 12"OTA F/8 and an 80MM Series 6000 ED Triplet APO F/6 would be the way to go?

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Re: Which one will work best? *DELETED* new [Re: Chris A]
      #6341159 - 01/28/14 02:28 PM

Quote:

Just thought I would jump in here and add my thoughts about this. David you must remember that video cameras use much smaller CCD sensors than actual CCD imaging cameras. By having a 1/2" sensor or even smaller makes the FOV very limited for most DSO's. Unless you plan on only observing planetary nebulas or certain NGC's or PGC's type galaxies, you really need to have two very different scopes. Yes using a C14 in Hyperstar mode for an f/1.9 or 675 mm focal length will provide more resolution than a C8 in Hyperstar mode for an f/2 or 406 mm focal length, but the photons will be collected onto the CCD sensor at almost the same rate, however, the C8 will have slightly less then 2 x the FOV. Many of the very common DSO's require when using a 1/2" CCD sensor 200 to 500 mm focal length in order to fit the object of interest into the FOV and even one of the largest **fastest** scopes like the C14 Hyperstar cannot fit the bill. This is why the 70 to 100 mm aperture refractor tend to be so popular amount us video observers and yes we have larger aperture scopes for the smaller objects.

Aperture is only king when it comes down to viewing into your eyepiece using your eye(s). When it comes down to video observing aperture benefits mainly globular clusters and the extra needed resolution only when the object can fit the FOV.

Chris A
Astrogate




You used to use a C9.25, no? And now you're using a 10" RC, no? The 9.25 was non-Hyperstar and the RC is used at its native focal length with reducers. Am I correct so far?

Then why is it that when Jack brings images taken from screen captures only (no processing) do I see such great images from some of the guys that have their video cameras, mostly Mallincams, in their big reflectors? Like I said, IF I ever do the video thing, I'd use a big scope.

I can see how something like M45 or M31 wouldn't fit in the FOV, but that's pretty common with long focal length visual stuff as well. My sense is that you increase photon capture with aperture. If that doesn't help, then why bother with anything more than a 4 or 5" refractor? There must be a reason that you chose a 10" aperture scope over a 5" aperture scope.

And when it comes to Hyperstar, you still have that aperture to suck in the photons. What I'm gleaning from this is that why fool with Hyperstar when you can get a 5" refractor with the same focal length. But...you have 5" of aperture, with, say, the C11 Hyperstar, you have the shorter focal length, BUT, you have 11" of aperture. How can that not be better than the 5" of aperture?

David


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dragonslayer1
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Re: Which one will work best? *DELETED* new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6341219 - 01/28/14 02:55 PM

Hey David, I can only comment on the 9.25 as thats what I have... It can be a real struggle to get the f/r fast enough to get good pictures because the more you try you start running into vigineting etc. There are some that get awesome pics, lets say M51 with small scopes and it seems mine takes twice as long exposure to get half the image.. Mine is not edge or faststar, Kasey

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A. Viegas
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Re: Which one will work best? *DELETED* new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6341244 - 01/28/14 03:05 PM

David

Let me try and explain from a real life example. If I use my 80mm refractor on an object like M27 let's say. I can expose for 30 seconds and with no focal reduction (F7 scope) I am shooting at 600mm and my FOV is 39' x 26' Then I crank up my C11 and with reducers (F3) I can get down to just over 800mm. And my FOV is 28' by 20'.

Ok. So what gives? Ignoring the vignetting from the high reduction the C11 can produce that same image in terms of colors and brightness in much less time like 10 seconds. So yes you gain with aperture in terms of speed yet there is a give back. In my extreme light pollution the background in the 80mm is darker and there is more haze from the sharp reduction in the C11. Moreover as I mentioned there is
Likely to be vignetting with such extreme reduction.

I use my C11 more than my 80mm. But now that I have two video cameras I am planning to use them both at the same time on both scopes to get the best of both worlds

Hence the solution is easy. Have at least two telescopes, a larger aperture and a smaller one and have at least two video cameras.

Easy


Al


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chasing photons
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Re: Which one will work best? *DELETED* new [Re: Chris A]
      #6341285 - 01/28/14 03:30 PM

Quote...

"Just thought I would jump in here and add my thoughts about this. David you must remember that video cameras use much smaller CCD sensors than actual CCD imaging cameras. By having a 1/2" sensor or even smaller makes the FOV very limited for most DSO's. Unless you plan on only observing planetary nebulas or certain NGC's or PGC's type galaxies, you really need to have two very different scopes. Yes using a C14 in Hyperstar mode for an f/1.9 or 675 mm focal length will provide more resolution than a C8 in Hyperstar mode for an f/2 or 406 mm focal length, but the photons will be collected onto the CCD sensor at almost the same rate, however, the C8 will have slightly less then 2 x the FOV. Many of the very common DSO's require when using a 1/2" CCD sensor 200 to 500 mm focal length in order to fit the object of interest into the FOV and even one of the largest **fastest** scopes like the C14 Hyperstar cannot fit the bill. This is why the 70 to 100 mm aperture refractor tend to be so popular amount us video observers and yes we have larger aperture scopes for the smaller objects.

Aperture is only king when it comes down to viewing into your eyepiece using your eye(s). When it comes down to video observing aperture benefits mainly globular clusters and the extra needed resolution only when the object can fit the FOV.

Chris A
Astrogate "

+1 to Chris

for the most accurate, clear and complete explanation so far.

I try to remember the important points for imaging like this:

Think small focal ratio for faster integration.
Think small focal length for larger field of view.
Think larger aperture for higher resolving power (more detail).

Remember that larger apertures will have longer focal lengths, even at very fast (hyperstar) focal ratios.


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David PavlichAdministrator
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Re: Which one will work best? *DELETED* new [Re: A. Viegas]
      #6341349 - 01/28/14 04:03 PM

Quote:

David

Let me try and explain from a real life example. If I use my 80mm refractor on an object like M27 let's say. I can expose for 30 seconds and with no focal reduction (F7 scope) I am shooting at 600mm and my FOV is 39' x 26' Then I crank up my C11 and with reducers (F3) I can get down to just over 800mm. And my FOV is 28' by 20'.

Ok. So what gives? Ignoring the vignetting from the high reduction the C11 can produce that same image in terms of colors and brightness in much less time like 10 seconds. So yes you gain with aperture in terms of speed yet there is a give back. In my extreme light pollution the background in the 80mm is darker and there is more haze from the sharp reduction in the C11. Moreover as I mentioned there is
Likely to be vignetting with such extreme reduction.

I use my C11 more than my 80mm. But now that I have two video cameras I am planning to use them both at the same time on both scopes to get the best of both worlds

Hence the solution is easy. Have at least two telescopes, a larger aperture and a smaller one and have at least two video cameras.

Easy


Al




And this is the solution I've been waiting to hear! Multiple scopes which is no different than imaging with a CCD or viewing through an eyepiece. You can have the brute force of a 16" Meade SC and never view M45 in all its glory, but in the same breath, you can have an 80mm LZOS triplet apochromat and never see NGC 891 from my backyard. M45 will look good in the 80 and NGC891 will leap out of the eyepiece with the 16" Meade.

My interest, and I should have stated this earlier, is the small stuff that looks like a smudge in a typical backyard 10 or 12" scope, ie, my favorite hard to see object from my backyard due to light pollution NGC891.

Suffice it to say, when it's all boiled down, there's not a heckuva' lot of difference when comparing FOV and image scale between visual, imaging and video.

David


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Chris A
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Re: Which one will work best? *DELETED* new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6341364 - 01/28/14 04:08 PM

David to be honest I really do not think that an 11 to 14" scope is a large aperture scope. I would say it is decent size aperture but not large. Now when were talking about a 16 + inch scope now that is large, but my feelings have not change from what I previously wrote.

My reason from moving up from the C9.25" to the VRC10" scope was not for the extra little aperture. ** It was for the corrected flat field that was required for my MC Universe and for the high quality optics. I also use an 80 mm f/6.2 TMB triplet refractor for the wide field objects and also high quality Canon lenses for the extreme wide field objects.

Where are the broadcasters on NSN using the "big reflectors"?? There are a lot more objects that are a fair size then just M45 & M31. When it comes to *video or imaging* how do you increase photon capture with aperture, please explain this? An equal focal ratio of both scopes will collect the same amount of light within the same time frame. The reason why globular clusters look nicer in a larger aperture scope when it comes down to video or imaging is because of the resolving power and that is it.

Chris A
Astrogate


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Chris A
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Re: Which one will work best? new [Re: scopenitout]
      #6341377 - 01/28/14 04:14 PM

For me this would be the only exception if I had only one chance to own one scope. The C11 with Hyperstar when used with a Mallincam or any other video camera that offers a 1/2" CCD sensor would fit the majority of objects from fairly large nebulas or open clusters to really small planetary nebulas/galaxies.

Chris A
Astrogate


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Dwight J
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Re: Which one will work best? *DELETED* new [Re: Chris A]
      #6341379 - 01/28/14 04:16 PM

A case in point: I use several scopes for astrovideo to achieve different results. I use a C6 @F2.8 for wider fields like open clusters or M31or M42 that will not fit the field of either my C11 or C14 regardless of how much I can reduce them. Being able to vary the focal ratio and, thus focal length of a scope gives it versatility that Newtonians have a hard time doing because of limited inward focus travel. You can move the primary mirror or modify the truss tubes but this isn't the easiest task. Then it becomes less than optimal for visual use. The VRC's @F8 are modified to work well with focal reducers to get down to the astrovideo sweet spot of F5 or less.
I have seen amazing images done on large Newts but M27 filled the field of view. And that was at F3. Nice for small objects but it would take a week to look at the Veil Nebula.


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Chris A
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Re: Which one will work best? *DELETED* new [Re: gary-sue69]
      #6341381 - 01/28/14 04:16 PM

Gary that would be an awesome combination and adding a focal reducer for both scopes into the equation would be even better.

Chris A
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Chris A
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Re: Which one will work best? *DELETED* new [Re: chasing photons]
      #6341403 - 01/28/14 04:27 PM

Thank you Todd. There are just so many different size objects in the universe that one scope does all even with reducers just cannot cut it. David and others who think along the same terms must also keep in mind that these larger scopes will require a big expensive mount and if you do not have a permanent observatory good luck to you setting up & tearing down at each and every session. Even the big Dobs have their limitations when it comes down to tracking (unless you buy the Servocat system or equivalent) and where they can function in certain altitudes (limited towards Zenith where this is usually the best area of ones sky).

Clear skies,

Chris A


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Chris A
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Re: Which one will work best? *DELETED* new [Re: Dwight J]
      #6341406 - 01/28/14 04:29 PM

Great explanation Dwight and great to see you here again!

Cheers,

Chris A


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Chris A
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Re: Which one will work best? *DELETED* new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6341418 - 01/28/14 04:35 PM

No David the key point that you mentioned was this "My interest, and I should have stated this earlier, is the small stuff that looks like a smudge in a typical backyard 10 or 12" scope" and therefore you will require a larger aperture scope in order to allow you to get the *fastest* focal ratio possible while maintaining a decent *image scale*.

Chris A


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David PavlichAdministrator
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Re: Which one will work best? *DELETED* new [Re: Chris A]
      #6341432 - 01/28/14 04:43 PM

Quote:

David to be honest I really do not think that an 11 to 14" scope is a large aperture scope. I would say it is decent size aperture but not large. Now when were talking about a 16 + inch scope now that is large, but my feelings have not change from what I previously wrote.

My reason from moving up from the C9.25" to the VRC10" scope was not for the extra little aperture. ** It was for the corrected flat field that was required for my MC Universe and for the high quality optics. I also use an 80 mm f/6.2 TMB triplet refractor for the wide field objects and also high quality Canon lenses for the extreme wide field objects.

Where are the broadcasters on NSN using the "big reflectors"?? There are a lot more objects that are a fair size then just M45 & M31. When it comes to *video or imaging* how do you increase photon capture with aperture, please explain this? An equal focal ratio of both scopes will collect the same amount of light within the same time frame. The reason why globular clusters look nicer in a larger aperture scope when it comes down to video or imaging is because of the resolving power and that is it.

Chris A
Astrogate




The big aperture screen captures that I mentioned that Jack shows us at our meetings were from star parties where guys with big dobs have Mallincams. I'll have to talk to Jack to get particulars, but there is no denying that there were some impressive images.

You sort of made my argument by saying that larger apertures work good for resolving globular clusters. Why wouldn't they resolve other objects as well? And there's a reason why research telescopes are getting bigger, not smaller. They resolve better than small scopes.

Like I said in a previous post, one scope will not do everything whether it's video, visual or CCD/DSLR imaging. I know that without ever owning a video camera. And that is what has been stated here. You wouldn't use an FSQ106ED if your goal was to image nothing but planetary nebula. And you wouldn't use a C14 non-hyperstar if your goal is to image big objects like M45.

Still, if you want better resolution, you need aperture. There's a reason that Hubble has a 2.4 meter mirror and not a TOA150.

David


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Chris A
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Re: Which one will work best? *DELETED* new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #6341470 - 01/28/14 05:08 PM

David I have tried my best to explain to you in simple terms what I have learnt over the past 20 years starting out as a visual observer, CCD imager and finally ending up the pass 6 years observing with a video camera. I really see no point going forward with this discussion since your mind is set and it is just a waste of time. I really cannot see how you can state these facts regarding "video/aperture" since you have not even used an astro video camera.

BTW - those images that Jack is showing you are captured at Chiefland which is Florida's dark sky location. Dark skies are another equation but we won't get into that right now

Chris


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csa/montana
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Re: Which one will work best? *DELETED* new [Re: Chris A]
      #6341522 - 01/28/14 05:42 PM

Let's get back to assisting the OP with his questions.

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gary-sue69
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Re: Which one will work best? *DELETED* new [Re: Chris A]
      #6341540 - 01/28/14 05:51 PM

I will have a roll-off permanent observatory. It will be remote controlled

How well will a AT65EDQ 65mm f/6.5 ED quadruplet work compare to the Meade Series 6000 80mm f/6 ED triplet apo? or is the AT65EDQ to small? there was a lot of picture I saw on the web that was great. But they used a DSLR.

Edited by gary-sue69 (01/28/14 06:03 PM)


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A. Viegas
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Re: Which one will work best? *DELETED* *DELETED* new [Re: gary-sue69]
      #6341573 - 01/28/14 06:09 PM

Post deleted by csa/montana

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gary-sue69
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Re: Which one will work best? *DELETED* new [Re: A. Viegas]
      #6341595 - 01/28/14 06:23 PM

read my first post. that will explain, this is for a mallincam. which is a video camera.

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Chris A
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Re: Which one will work best? *DELETED* new [Re: gary-sue69]
      #6341680 - 01/28/14 07:12 PM

Gary the AT65EDQ 65mm f/6.5 ED quadruplet will have a focal length of 423 mm and the Meade Series 6000 80mm f/6 ED triplet apo will have a focal length of 480 mm. Either both scopes will be great for wide field observing with a Mallincam. The AT65EDQ 65mm will have a very slight edge in FOV but the Meade Series 8000 80 mm will be a bit faster. I would go if I had to choose between the two for me it would come down to cost but if they cost almost the same then the Meade Series 6000 80mm f/6 ED would be my choice.

Chris


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gary-sue69
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Re: Which one will work best? *DELETED* new [Re: Chris A]
      #6341727 - 01/28/14 07:35 PM

Thanks for all the help. I think at less with the great info I know which way to go

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Chris A
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Re: Which one will work best? *DELETED* new [Re: gary-sue69]
      #6341989 - 01/28/14 10:11 PM

your very welcome Gary all the best.

Chris


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BJS
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Re: Which one will work best? *DELETED* new [Re: Chris A]
      #6348934 - 02/01/14 11:36 AM

Gary

I am close to you in Toledo. Send me a PM. I have used a MC with similar scopes as you originally asked about.

Brian


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