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asaintAdministrator
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From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronomers
      #1087156 - 08/10/06 09:00 AM

A Tale of Two Astronomers

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jrcrillyAdministrator
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronome new [Re: asaint]
      #1087198 - 08/10/06 09:32 AM

Nice one, Allister.

To me, the good news is that folks fitting either profile seem to end up learning a lot and having a good time.

--------------------
John C
Urban Observatory
Tele Vue Pronto
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 152ED F/9 "APO"
152mm F/10 achromat
Tak CN-212 8" F/12 classical Cass/ F/4 Newt
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
LXD750, EM-200
ST-10XME


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Clive Gibbons
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronomers new [Re: asaint]
      #1087300 - 08/10/06 10:39 AM

Good one, Allister.

Seems like the major difference between Alfred and Steve is that Alfred stuck to books and charts to enjoy his scope, while Steve wandered over to the dreaded Internet (and possibly Cloudy Nights) to get better informed and ultimately distracted by what he learned there.

Moral of the story (?)--
Once you buy a scope, stay away from your computer!

--------------------


A few telescopes of dubious value.
Understanding wife and three curious cats.

"Semper ubi sub ubi"


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asaintAdministrator
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronomers new [Re: Clive Gibbons]
      #1087305 - 08/10/06 10:42 AM

Clive,

Maybe. Question - do people read online reviews to become "better informed"?

Allister


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asaintAdministrator
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronomers new [Re: asaint]
      #1087319 - 08/10/06 10:53 AM

John,

Yes, at one level you could conclude the story is about 2 "type" of amateur astronomers. However, there is more to it then that.

Your comment that the hobby has folks fitting both profiles and "have a good time" does not sync with the story. Consider this line in Steve's story;

"Test sessions with each telescope take on the atmosphere of a tax audit."

Allister


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lynntx
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronomers new [Re: asaint]
      #1087332 - 08/10/06 11:01 AM

One of the more intelligent post I have seen on cloudy nights. Although I have been in this hobby (off and on for over 2 years) I have not progressed much beyond a beginners skills in many ways. I do more reading than observing, and I suspect a lot of other people are the same way. One of the most discouraging aspects for me living in a large Urban area, the light pollution has pretty much ruined a typical viewing night for me. I am forced to look at a very short list of objects which often leaves for an unsatisfying session. I have just never seemed to get too excited about Lunar viewing, which is often the only easy choice with the skies over my city. Like most people, it's is not so easy to drive an hour to get to even marginally better skies.
Lynn

--------------------
Texas, USA
*******************
Orion ST80
127mm F8 Burgess Refractor
8" F6 Dob
8X21, 8X30, 8X42, 7X50, 15X70 Binoculars
(Psalm 19:1)


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Clive Gibbons
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronomers new [Re: asaint]
      #1087338 - 08/10/06 11:03 AM

Quote:

Clive,

Maybe. Question - do people read online reviews to become "better informed"?

Allister




Thanks, Allister.

They probably read on-line reviews for many reasons.
Some, out of sheer curiosity.
Some, to get better informed before making a purchase.
Some, to affirm that they made the right purchase and sometimes reading stuff that might contradict that opinion.
Some, just to waste time while surfing the web at work.

Probably lots of other reasons, too.

--------------------


A few telescopes of dubious value.
Understanding wife and three curious cats.

"Semper ubi sub ubi"


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timmbottoni
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronomers new [Re: asaint]
      #1087341 - 08/10/06 11:03 AM

Great article!

I am still amazed at what I have learned from "using" my Nexstar 114GT I bought from Costco for $160 three years ago, after reading that this was a horrible optical design, a faulty cheap GoTo mount that can't find anything, or track for more than a few seconds, and is too unstable to use at anything but really low power.

I now have an 80mm refractor that I can mount on it and find nearly anything within my limitations, or on a manual alt-az mount. I have learned a great deal about the sky, have a fast portable setup that I can be observing with in 5 minutes, and enjoy seeing the moon, stars, planets, open clusters, asterisms, double stars, and even some DSOs like the Ring Nebula from the back of my deck, in horribly light polluted skies were "it's not worth observing from"!

You share my sentiments exactly - whatever you have - GET OUT AND USE IT!!! Nearly everything we learn in life we learn by trial and error. Reading is great when its cloudy out at night, or when you are trying to stay awake on the train ride commute home, and I take advantage of that time every chance I get, and the Internet is a wonderful tool for learning too, but you can't learn to swim by reading a book about it, you have to try, try, try.

Clear Skies!!!!

Timm

--------------------
WO Megrez 80FD, Celestron C8
WO SWAN 33mm, UWANs 4mm, 7mm, 16mm, WO SPLs 3mm, 6mm, 12.5mm, WO Zoom II 7.5-22.5
WO EZTouch & Celestron Nexstar GT modified mounts
SV F50B2 Finder in WO Quick Release 50mm bracket


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jrcrillyAdministrator
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronome new [Re: asaint]
      #1087347 - 08/10/06 11:05 AM

Quote:

Clive,

Maybe. Question - do people read online reviews to become "better informed"?

Allister




Great question!

Folks who read reviews seeking affirmation of a telescope choice they have already made do expose themselves to the danger of discovering weaknesses that may have never come to their attention otherwise. They may then focus on those aspects, and become dissatisfied, as in the tale referred to in this thread.

I do hope that lots of folks read reviews to become better informed; that's certainly my goal when writing one.

--------------------
John C
Urban Observatory
Tele Vue Pronto
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 152ED F/9 "APO"
152mm F/10 achromat
Tak CN-212 8" F/12 classical Cass/ F/4 Newt
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
LXD750, EM-200
ST-10XME


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sjs42
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronome new [Re: jrcrilly]
      #1087365 - 08/10/06 11:15 AM

Different strokes...
As long as it's fun who cares if it's naked eye, binoculars, small achro, big Dob or mostly reading.
There is no right or wrong.


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Starman1
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronomers new [Re: asaint]
      #1087369 - 08/10/06 11:17 AM

I like the Alfreds, when I find them, but, unfortunately, I know a lot of Steves.

Steve has a brother, Ed, who owns a big dob (20") and only observes the 10 brightest objects in the sky because they're the only 10 objects he's ever learned. He spends hours gazing at M13 and M57 because that's all he knows. Of course, Ed can't stay up late, either, so he's always in bed by midnight. After the Milky Way sets, there's nothing to look at anyway, right? But you should see the image of Jupiter in his Zambuto mirror!

All I can say is I'm glad I was stuck with that 4-1/4" reflector for the first 9 years I owned a telescope. Even with its cheapo eyepieces, it never let me down. And it forced me to learn how to see.

--------------------
Don Pensack
12.5" Truss Dob, 5" Maksutov
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member, TeleVue junkie


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midway199
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronomers new [Re: asaint]
      #1087391 - 08/10/06 11:28 AM

I didn't think I'd like this article as I started reading it because I thought it was going to be about go-to versus non-goto. It was much deeper and compelling, and I couldn't help laughing as I read Steve's story. I think we all know both of these guys or someone very similar.

I've known guys that absolutely beat the sky with their 6" f/8's logging the most fascinating things they've discovered in their log books, and I've known guys that build amazing monster Dobsonian masterpieces who can't tell one constellation from another. They have ALL enriched MY observing experience and I wouln't change any of those nights I spent with them under the stars. We all help, inspire, and guide each other in one way or another. I like to keep in mind that Astronomy is many things to many people, and I love the diversity I've encountered. I just wish I had more opportunities to help show everyone the right way to do things <wink-wink>. Just kidding!

MS

--------------------
Matthew Sherman

StellaCam 3
Celestron NexStar 11 @ f/3.3
Starmaster 12.5"
Starmaster 18"
Tom Osypowski Equatorial Platform
Butterfield East Video Observatory


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loo27
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronomers new [Re: Starman1]
      #1087396 - 08/10/06 11:30 AM

Great post! There is the hybrid astronomer, the one who has to keep buying bigger scopes to learn the sky because they live in mag 2 skies (ie me)!

I think the biggest factor in retarded sky knowledge is bad skies. I'm only now learning the constellations from 30 degrees up to horizon because I've been making more dark sky trips. Also, my knowlege of the winter and fall sky is about 10x that of the summer and spring sky, because the conditions are so awful.

--------------------
Cliff

C10-N/CG-5GT
Tomlin Industries 6" f/6 Newtonian
C4-R
50mm binos


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Covey32
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronomers new [Re: loo27]
      #1087424 - 08/10/06 11:46 AM

Great article...thought provoking.
I can see both ends of the spectrum, though...for example, there are lots of folks that collect stamps...even old dead butterflies...and get a lot of enjoyment out of it.
Right ?

--------------------
Hank

12.5" Mag1 Portaball
Orion 120mm F5 Refractor
Skywatcher 120ED F7.5 Refractor
1982 Celestron C8 Orange tube





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asaintAdministrator
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronomers new [Re: Covey32]
      #1087428 - 08/10/06 11:50 AM

Covey,

"Stamp Collector", "Telescope Collector"?

Allister


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Covey32
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronomers new [Re: asaint]
      #1087430 - 08/10/06 11:52 AM

Stamps are generally a tiny bit cheaper and take up less space.

--------------------
Hank

12.5" Mag1 Portaball
Orion 120mm F5 Refractor
Skywatcher 120ED F7.5 Refractor
1982 Celestron C8 Orange tube





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asaintAdministrator
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronomers new [Re: Covey32]
      #1087437 - 08/10/06 11:55 AM

Also harder to enclose a telescope in that clear silicon to "protect your investment".

Allister


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Clive Gibbons
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronomers new [Re: asaint]
      #1087447 - 08/10/06 12:01 PM

Quote:

Consider this line in Steve's story;

"Test sessions with each telescope take on the atmosphere of a tax audit."

Allister




Yup, there's "Steves" in just about every hobby.
They make the experience "serious business" and lose sight of the fact that hobbies are supposed to be fun.
Every purchasing decision is analysed to the n-th degree and second-guessed after the fact.
Such folks probably live much of their lives that way, too.
I'm not sure they can be helped...

--------------------


A few telescopes of dubious value.
Understanding wife and three curious cats.

"Semper ubi sub ubi"


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Covey32
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronomers new [Re: Clive Gibbons]
      #1087454 - 08/10/06 12:07 PM

We probably can't be helped...but I think dodging and jumping over all the equipment I have on my porch helps keep me in shape...so, it's not all bad.

--------------------
Hank

12.5" Mag1 Portaball
Orion 120mm F5 Refractor
Skywatcher 120ED F7.5 Refractor
1982 Celestron C8 Orange tube





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Clive Gibbons
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronomers new [Re: Covey32]
      #1087459 - 08/10/06 12:13 PM

I know I can't be helped!

But, at least I'm not hurting anyone else, in the process...

--------------------


A few telescopes of dubious value.
Understanding wife and three curious cats.

"Semper ubi sub ubi"


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jrcrillyAdministrator
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronome new [Re: Covey32]
      #1087475 - 08/10/06 12:20 PM

Quote:

Stamps are generally a tiny bit cheaper and take up less space.




Telescopes aren't too bad. When I was a jukebox collector I had to rent a 5000 ft sq warehouse!

--------------------
John C
Urban Observatory
Tele Vue Pronto
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 152ED F/9 "APO"
152mm F/10 achromat
Tak CN-212 8" F/12 classical Cass/ F/4 Newt
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
LXD750, EM-200
ST-10XME


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Clive Gibbons
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronome new [Re: jrcrilly]
      #1087494 - 08/10/06 12:30 PM

Glad I'm not a Zeppelin collector...



(OK, back to the topic at hand...)

--------------------


A few telescopes of dubious value.
Understanding wife and three curious cats.

"Semper ubi sub ubi"


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spaceydeeModerator
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronomers new [Re: Clive Gibbons]
      #1087547 - 08/10/06 01:04 PM

I definitely feel sorry for Steve here and happy for Alfred. Myself, I am quite happy being somewhere between the two. Realistically speaking, unless I move out to a country area, I will never get as many nights out under the stars as I can - although I enjoy the observing I do in the city, I miss the fainter of the faint fuzzies, and miss seeing the detail that one can see under darker skies. In the meantime, I push either the dob or a small refractor out onto the balcony, figure out what is in my field of view to observe, and go after what I can. I also enjoy playing around with the equipment, comparing and contrasting the strengths and weaknesses of each design because it is interesting to me. . As a physicist, I have enjoyed seeing false color. Why? because it is supposed to be there, and while in theory it should be there it is nice to know in reality what it is!

--------------------
Dee
space-scientist
student violinist
Nexstar8i,SV80S,80/9D,FC100,94 Brandon,TMB92SS,GM8
8" f/7 Discovery,12.5" Portaball, PST



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apfevervictim
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronomers new [Re: spaceydee]
      #1087578 - 08/10/06 01:25 PM

Allister,
What a great article/tale! Thank you. It puts my astronomical experience into perspective. I started out as an Alfred, but was drawn to the dark side (maybe by poor sky conditions), and became more of a Steve. But, I still have hope, as I find that I still "ooh" and "ahh" at finding objects for the first time, or when seeing a familiar object from a dark sky site. The point being that it's easy to get drawn away from what you enjoy about the hobby by the overwhelming amount of info available to you, that's often seasoned with opinions that really fall under the "personal taste" category, but are presented as "fact".

Dee,
Quote:

Why? because it is supposed to be there,...






--------------------
Wade
XT10 newt, TMB130SS , 5"f5 refractor, 5"mak,
TV102 w/Feathertouch(soon to be on Astromart), 20x80LW & 15x70 Ultra Obies', PST, I need help!


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timmbottoni
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronomers new [Re: Clive Gibbons]
      #1087579 - 08/10/06 01:25 PM

[quote}
They make the experience "serious business" and lose sight of the fact that hobbies are supposed to be fun.





Took the words right out of my mouth!

Timm

--------------------
WO Megrez 80FD, Celestron C8
WO SWAN 33mm, UWANs 4mm, 7mm, 16mm, WO SPLs 3mm, 6mm, 12.5mm, WO Zoom II 7.5-22.5
WO EZTouch & Celestron Nexstar GT modified mounts
SV F50B2 Finder in WO Quick Release 50mm bracket


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Jay_Bird
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronomers new [Re: asaint]
      #1087580 - 08/10/06 01:27 PM

I wondered as I clicked who the two would be – Tombaugh and Hubble? Galileo and Newton? Ptolemy and Tycho? Levy and Seki? Alfred and Steve were unexpected, but made a fine parable. Here are three related thoughts:

I heard a good perspective on hobbies in a radio interview: one way people find happiness is to approach their avocations like their careers, committing TIME and PRACTICE to learn, to add and hone skills, to become passionate about and expert in some small area of the hobby, then another area, etc. Alfred throwing himself into double stars while learning constellations was a good example of this approach.

(Or judging by our daytime posts here, maybe more of use should approach our careers with the same energy as we do CN!)

A second thought is that we should make sure beginners base their buyer’s remorse or happiness ON THEIR OWN EXPERIENCE and are not prejudiced, or pushed to the cycle of impatient buying rather than learning, by other’s opinions. It requires restraint by mentors and an effort to communicate more know-how and less “buy more” advice, and encouraging newcomers to read the observation threads as much as the equipment forums.

Knowledge gained with a little patience and practice won’t disappear with each trade-up by a new astronomer, and that can be accomplished using any equipment that meets a fairly basic, workable minimum standard.

Finally, the present cornucopia of hobby gear doesn’t mean everyone has to have every latest thing. To manufacturer’s credit I don’t see that philosophy in telescope ads as much as in hobby forums. Do people ask if they’ve gotten all they can from scope or eyepiece A before they chase B, C, and D? People loved fishing before depth-finders and GPS, found wonder in amateur astronomy before go-to, and learned the art of photography before stabilized auto-focus zooms, etc. All the new technology offers many useful and specialized tools, some undreamed of in the past, but if the tools become an end in themselves then we are spending our time and our resources to be more collectors than astronomers.

I don’t mean that everyone learning the hobby should wear a hair shirt for a year of observing with a 3-inch Dob and an uncoated Ramsden eyepiece, but if that's all they have they can learn the sky and see a lot more than without a scope.

Advice so often offered to beginners as ‘buy more’ might better be ‘more books and charts, a chair, etc.’ than ‘more aperture and more eyepieces, stretch your budget, etc.’...

--------------------
'these things stand like stone - kindness in another's troubles, courage in your own' Gordon


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desertstarsAdministrator
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Re: From the Editors Desk: A tale of two astronomers new [Re: asaint]
      #1087610 - 08/10/06 01:52 PM

Quote:

Also harder to enclose a telescope in that clear silicon to "protect your investment".

Allister




Though it does conjure an amusing image...

--------------------
Tom W.

SVP8 'She turned me into a 3-legged Newt' EQ
Ralph, the All-Purpose 102mm Refractor
Under the Desert Stars


"If we don't change direction soon, we'll end up where we're going." Professor Irwin Corey



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Beri
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RE: new [Re: asaint]
      #1087785 - 08/10/06 03:24 PM

Like an old professor said a long time ago :
There are two kinds of observers. The first kind observes the stars, and the other kind observes the diffraction rings arround them.

--------------------
15x70 Binoculars
no scope right now

http://www.scopemaking.net


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microbes
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Re: RE: new [Re: Beri]
      #1087849 - 08/10/06 04:00 PM

Quote:

There are two kinds of observers. The first kind observes the stars, and the other kind observes the diffraction rings arround them.




Only time I want to look at diffraction rings is for about 90 seconds while I tweak my mirror. And I can sit a ball bearing way out on my back fence and do that before it gets dark.

I think I'm mostly like Alfred. Except that I do know that my stuff isn't the best. But I don't let that bother me.

--------------------

Dirt Cheap Astronomy
Voyager 114X900 Newt EQ2 * Sky Chief 60X700 EQ1 * Cometron 62X300 EQ1
Sears Ultra Wide 7X50 Binos * Vintage 16X50 Binos EQ1
Books, Barlows, Eyepieces, Camera Adaptors & Other Esoteric Junk.


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