asaint
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/25/03
Posts: 2019
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Live 3D
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Doug Culbertson
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/06/05
Posts: 963
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Excellent and informative article! I will be receiving a MallinCam Hyper Color Plus this week, and this is the kind of stuff I like to read about!
A couple of questions though: I was thinking about ordering the virtual visor 3-D HMD, however this article made me wonder if they would still provide a virtual 3-D view without the 2D/3D converter mentioned in the article? Also, how might the 3-D HMDs compare to the same priced 600x800 2-D HMDs ?
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Doug
Midway, FL
Life's too short to drink cheap beer
Edited by Doug Culbertson (03/10/08 01:55 PM)
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highfnum
super member
Reged: 09/06/06
Posts: 103
Loc: NY
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the VV 3d HMD needs the converter box -- why
mallincam puts out 2d image
3D is synthetic
however the 2D view is still good
2D HMD or video glasses are less expensive in general
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ArmandB
newbie
Reged: 03/10/08
Posts: 4
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The VV will work with any already encoded 3D material, like IMAX movies encoded in 3D. The Virtual FX provides the encoding needed to view regular 2D into 3D. The VV is also a high resolution, 800x600 unit and is not a simple lower resolution 320x240 2D unit.
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ArmandB
newbie
Reged: 03/10/08
Posts: 4
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post deleted by spaceydee
Edited by spaceydee (03/11/08 12:27 AM)
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Starman1
Vendor - Scope City
Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 10918
Loc: Los Angeles
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This should have been titled Live 3D IMAGING, not viewing.
This is a valid way to see the stars, but what it's not is "viewing", unless you stretch the definition of the word.
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Don Pensack
12.5" Truss Dob, 5" Maksutov
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member, TeleVue junkie
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Doug Culbertson
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/06/05
Posts: 963
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Quote:
This should have been titled Live 3D IMAGING, not viewing.
This is a valid way to see the stars, but what it's not is "viewing", unless you stretch the definition of the word.
Yeah, but that topic has already been beaten to death in other forums.
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Doug
Midway, FL
Life's too short to drink cheap beer
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Douglas
Vendor - Night Vision Astronomy
Reged: 05/21/07
Posts: 291
Loc: Pound Ridge, NY
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I have to say that I have had some very exciting MallinCam sessions and didn't think it could get much better but when we used the Virtual FX 3D Converter it really blew my mind. You really have to see it. I know what people's faces look like when they see M42 through the color MallinCam for the first time, now imagine if it were 3D and you were in space yourself!
Combining the 3D with the VV is a pretty powerful and flexible combination.
- Doug
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Night Vision Astronomy
BIPH - Binocular Photon Machine
IDA Member
Obsession 12.5" Argo Navis/ServoCat #1528
Tak FSQ-106 EDX2 & EM-200 Temma II
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PST SolarMax 40 Double Stack
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AstroTrac
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ccs_hello
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/03/04
Posts: 2781
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I have no experience on any synthesized 3D from a plain-2D image. But per the description of user experience, it looks like
- both eye experience is helpful
- artificially introduced perspective differences (L vs. R) causing stereoscopic view is nice 
My question is
does this technology apply uniform perspective/angular transform in all areas or
differential transform
such that the center region appears to be closer to you (floating center region)?
Clear Skies!
ccs_hello
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Douglas
Vendor - Night Vision Astronomy
Reged: 05/21/07
Posts: 291
Loc: Pound Ridge, NY
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John and I went back to his images of the lunar eclipse and used the Virtual FX 3D converter and did an interesting thing. I reached for the moon! Quite literally, I reached out in an attempt to hold the moon, the 3D looked that good, and we found that I would reach all the way to the monitor and never get to the target with my hand. It had the appearance of a depressed image as opposed to a pop out image.
You should try it, reach for the moon!
- Doug
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Night Vision Astronomy
BIPH - Binocular Photon Machine
IDA Member
Obsession 12.5" Argo Navis/ServoCat #1528
Tak FSQ-106 EDX2 & EM-200 Temma II
Canon 450 Xsi No Modification
QSI 532ws CCD with AstroDon Filters
Home Built Gen III Image Intensifier
Denk II Binos D14s & D21s
MallinCam Hyper Plus Color
Bunch of Naglers & 13mm Ethos
Stellarvue 80mm F/7 NHNG #36
PST SolarMax 40 Double Stack
Canon 15 x 50 IS Binoculars
AstroTrac
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Douglas
Vendor - Night Vision Astronomy
Reged: 05/21/07
Posts: 291
Loc: Pound Ridge, NY
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Quote:
My question is does this technology apply uniform perspective/angular transform in all areas or differential transform such that the center region appears to be closer to you (floating center region)?
It is a good question. While the left / right shutter effect creates the distinct images in each eye producing the synthetic stereoscopic effect, the degree of separation in depth, and how it is applied, is a good question.
Since I haven't mapped the distance locations to all of the stars in the field of view I couldn't tell if they were appropriately placed with respect to actual depth. There were stars all over the field that looked closer or further, with out respect to where they were placed in the field of view. There were stars that appeared closer than the centered target.
- Doug
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Night Vision Astronomy
BIPH - Binocular Photon Machine
IDA Member
Obsession 12.5" Argo Navis/ServoCat #1528
Tak FSQ-106 EDX2 & EM-200 Temma II
Canon 450 Xsi No Modification
QSI 532ws CCD with AstroDon Filters
Home Built Gen III Image Intensifier
Denk II Binos D14s & D21s
MallinCam Hyper Plus Color
Bunch of Naglers & 13mm Ethos
Stellarvue 80mm F/7 NHNG #36
PST SolarMax 40 Double Stack
Canon 15 x 50 IS Binoculars
AstroTrac
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MikeV
member
Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 23
Loc: Long Island, NY
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Doug / John,
Great article! I will be receiving my MallinCam in about a about a week or so and this only builds the new kit anticipation. I can't wait to host the next "electronically enhanced" viewing session with you guys at the GrayStar Observatory.
Cheers,
Mike V.
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12" Meade RCX400
SkyShed POD
NexStar 5
Orion ST80
Coronado SolarMax 40
Meade DSI-C/DSI ProII
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands."
Psalm 19:1
Graystar Observatory
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airydisc
newbie
Reged: 01/23/07
Posts: 3
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Doug/John,
I'll call myself an expert on 3D imagery for the purposes of this discussion, although I know many people are more expert.
The explanation of how the Virtual FX device synthesizes 3D from 2D is wholly lacking in substance, so I can only guess at what it does. I would imagine that it is intended for more conventional entertainment sources (TV and movies) and that the effects on a static image such as you would get through a telescope are very limited in addition to being (as you noted) synthetic.
Stereopsis, the effect of depth perception resulting from simultaneous viewing from two distinct perspectives, does not apply to binocular telescopes even when looking at the relatively close object, our Moon - it is just too far away to produce a difference detectable to human vision. The primary advantage to binocular telescopes is that defects such as floaters in the eye are different in each eye and therefore, greatly reduced in appearance. Secondarily, it is simply more comfortable to view with both eyes rather than keeping one eye clamped shut.
Simply viewing on a monitor with both eyes provides both of these benefits without the need for processing, so I'm really curious as to what advantages you found in using the synthetic 3D system, but not enough to go out and buy one!
Clear Skies,
Greg
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highfnum
super member
Reged: 09/06/06
Posts: 103
Loc: NY
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One Thing I noticed is that the "shutter left right" effect is similar to tapping a telescope in order to see faint objects
But in general this was done as a fun project -- to add (no pun intended) an extra dimension to the fun in observing with a video camera
John
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Douglas
Vendor - Night Vision Astronomy
Reged: 05/21/07
Posts: 291
Loc: Pound Ridge, NY
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Hey Greg:
I see this is your first post, welcome to Cloudy Nights!
The basic explanation of how shuttering works to produce the 3D effect was included in the article but for a far more detailed explanation of how stereoscopy you can read this: http://stereopov.ichthyostega.de/viewing.html
The monitor must be operated in interlaced mode and the two halfimages are to be presented line interleaved, while a special electronical device switches the LCD glasses in sync with the monitor's vertical image frequency.
I guess we would consider that experts explanation!
When you use two eyes to look at the television you see the television unit in 3D, but the image on the screen is 2D, and must be converted to a 3D image.
- Doug
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Night Vision Astronomy
BIPH - Binocular Photon Machine
IDA Member
Obsession 12.5" Argo Navis/ServoCat #1528
Tak FSQ-106 EDX2 & EM-200 Temma II
Canon 450 Xsi No Modification
QSI 532ws CCD with AstroDon Filters
Home Built Gen III Image Intensifier
Denk II Binos D14s & D21s
MallinCam Hyper Plus Color
Bunch of Naglers & 13mm Ethos
Stellarvue 80mm F/7 NHNG #36
PST SolarMax 40 Double Stack
Canon 15 x 50 IS Binoculars
AstroTrac
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Chris Schroeder
Postmaster
Reged: 12/11/04
Posts: 5078
Loc: N.E. WI Sky Glow
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Great article Doug, looks like my must get list will never end 
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Chris
Mallincam Color Hyper Plus
10" DSH with SC DSC, CPC 800 XLT
M102ED S.V., ZS 80FD 10th Anniv, ZS 66SD, PST
POD XL3 http://POD.SchroederCity.com
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ccs_hello
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/03/04
Posts: 2781
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If your PC's VGA card has a NTSC analog video out connector:
I would suggest go to this site:
http://www.lynxxx.nl/barco/downloads/index.html
Download this file:
http://www.lynxxx.nl/barco/downloads/crtat2.zip
then run the "crtat" program.
Choose "Static convergence" and pick "high" mode.
It is an evenly distributed dots aligned in X-Y grid.
Now using 3D synthetic video goggle, you might be able to tell how these dots look like. Does the center portion look closer to or farther from you? How these dots are floating?
Clear Skies!
ccs_hello
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Douglas
Vendor - Night Vision Astronomy
Reged: 05/21/07
Posts: 291
Loc: Pound Ridge, NY
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I checked the link and it looks like a great test. I haven't tried the Virtual FX on a computer LCD screen yet. My laptop has a video out for using a presentation projector. I will see if the laptop screen works with the Virtual FX 3D Converter and if I get positive results, I will download the program to my laptop and report back.
- Doug
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Night Vision Astronomy
BIPH - Binocular Photon Machine
IDA Member
Obsession 12.5" Argo Navis/ServoCat #1528
Tak FSQ-106 EDX2 & EM-200 Temma II
Canon 450 Xsi No Modification
QSI 532ws CCD with AstroDon Filters
Home Built Gen III Image Intensifier
Denk II Binos D14s & D21s
MallinCam Hyper Plus Color
Bunch of Naglers & 13mm Ethos
Stellarvue 80mm F/7 NHNG #36
PST SolarMax 40 Double Stack
Canon 15 x 50 IS Binoculars
AstroTrac
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Douglas
Vendor - Night Vision Astronomy
Reged: 05/21/07
Posts: 291
Loc: Pound Ridge, NY
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I should also be able to send the video from the laptop to my Sony Trinitron and then use the Sony for the test. The Sony Trinitron worked extremely well with the Virtual FX.
- Doug
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Night Vision Astronomy
BIPH - Binocular Photon Machine
IDA Member
Obsession 12.5" Argo Navis/ServoCat #1528
Tak FSQ-106 EDX2 & EM-200 Temma II
Canon 450 Xsi No Modification
QSI 532ws CCD with AstroDon Filters
Home Built Gen III Image Intensifier
Denk II Binos D14s & D21s
MallinCam Hyper Plus Color
Bunch of Naglers & 13mm Ethos
Stellarvue 80mm F/7 NHNG #36
PST SolarMax 40 Double Stack
Canon 15 x 50 IS Binoculars
AstroTrac
Edited by Douglas (03/11/08 10:42 PM)
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ccs_hello
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/03/04
Posts: 2781
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Welcome to Cloudy Nights Greg!
ccs_hello
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