Mike Loffland
Web Guru (Astronomics)
Reged: 09/03/04
Posts: 1121
Loc: Norman, Oklahoma
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The Trouble with the Magazines
By: Rod Mollise
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phanfave
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/21/06
Posts: 1232
Loc: Pioneer Valley
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This is a fantastic article on the state of our beloved magazines. I don't necessarily agree with everything in here (I kind of like what's in the sky this month) but I think it's a well balanced article. I fear the day when either magazine closes shop because they can't sell enough magazines. I'd love to see more articles on observing and equipment. I'd even like to see some older articles from Houston and other earlier writers. I appreciate the technical articles and I'm sure they sell a lot of magazines themselves, but I want a magazine on observing. Astronomy and S&T both used to be that. Not too much anymore.
Oh and for the record I'm subscribed to both including AT, AA, and Sky News. If there were more I'd get them. Might even get the one in the UK, course that is a pricey one.
Sean
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SV70ED (soon), SV102ABV (November!!!!!!), C8, 10" Astro Sky
Vixen Sphinx, Vixen SP, SV M1, SV MG (December)
Denkmeier II binoviewers
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IDA Member
Astro League At-Large Member
Planetary Society Member
Amherst Area Astronomer Association
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o1d_dude
o1der than dirt
Reged: 10/03/07
Posts: 1282
Loc: The Big Tomato, California
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Amen to the Sue French/James O'Meara comment.
I'd personally like to see much more in that vein than something that has already been discussed to death on the 'net.
In short, more timeless items and less news-like content.
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Kit
"There's only two things that excite a man, expensive toys and real expensive toys." - Red Green
* A bunch of old ATM stuff that cost me next to nothing
* A bunch of new commercial stuff that cost me an arm and a leg
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Larry Geary
sage
Reged: 09/24/06
Posts: 435
Loc: NJ, USA
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That was a good article. Now I feel like I should write my comment with an accent. But then, maybe I am. 
I've been a subscriber to S&T since 1969, but when my subscription was up last year I hesitated before renewing. The way things are going, I may not get another chance to renew. Magazines are dying. The spike in energy prices may finally kill off many of them. Information is moving to the Internet, where it is plentiful and largely free. I'm on Cloudy Nights and Astromart every day, but my S&T often sits unread the entire month.
The suggestions for saving the magazines are pretty good, but probably insufficient. When you subtract all the things the magazines used to provide exclusively but are now available on the net - ads (more than half the page count of any magazine), reviews, pictures, news - there isn't enough left to keep a magazine alive.
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When small men cast long shadows, the sun is going down.
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gordon
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 07/15/03
Posts: 872
Loc: England
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The problem with magazines in the field of astronomy is that they are financed via adverts.
Flick through the pages and the astro big two will always be there. The mag then does a review on the latest scope or new item made by the big two. (Not including the EP makers)
Bad review= less money, good review= more money.
Perhaps, thanks to the interent people are making their own judgement on equipment.
Imagine an astro mag giving a poor review on an Ethos. How many bucks would they lose as a result?
That is why CN is so good, the reviews are impartial and sites like this could well be the new S and T.
PS Mike loffland, I have just seen the film, until now I thought that was you at the keyboard 
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I paid Al Naglers Mortgage.
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waterskies
member
Reged: 08/18/07
Posts: 85
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Well-written, Rod. My dime is for the Internet although I do enjoy S&T every now and then at the public library or at B&N.
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Pedestal
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/11/06
Posts: 2939
Loc: Smoggy Bottom, Baytown,Texas
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Really struck home this month, as I had noted not only how thin both mags were this month, but how little interesting (at least to me) content.
Hubert
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www.smoggybottom.org
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Jay_Bird
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/04/06
Posts: 669
Loc: Nevada 36N 115W
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It don't seem entirely fair to throw chondrites at them poor little Bay State & Badger State astro-zines from here in cyber-space.
What strikes me is that magazines still offer variety - in S&T I find a wide range of topics about all aspects of astronomy with forays into planetary geology and atmospheric science, related aspects of history, etc.
There's also a range of styles and tone.
Over about 4 months I read each issue cover to cover.
I don't read every post on CN, there are too many and while I'm a regular reader here, the ambience is different. The magazines are moderated AND edited, and I don't need to sit in front of a monitor - I can snatch 5 minutes of short columns over coffee or plow through the monthly in-depth features on a flight or over lunch.
On CN we can click to drill in to our favorite topics - and if we are not careful - we stay narrowly focussed on those topics.
While I skip thru a magazine on a first reading, I eventually read the whole thing, and that is an antidote to the narrowing and filtering of interest and attention in all things that Susan Jacoby has described about our society.
The magazines will never have everything just for 'you' (no matter whether 'you' are an expert observer impatient with basics, a super imager, a gearhead, an eager beginner, or an armchair cosmic philosopher), because they try hard to have something for everybody. I don't mind that, and the surprises about things I didn't know or wasn't sure I'd like are nice.
While S&T or mags in general ain't what they used to be, this bird and Uncle Rod can probably say that about a lot of things compared to 2 or 3 decades ago. They still get the job done, and ain't all THAT bad either!
EDIT: I've got to add that it's really nice to see Uncle Rod and his astro blog here on CN!
In this particular case, I disagree with some points, maybe because:
1) having grown up on paper (mags and books) I see electrons as a supplement and not a replacement (oddly I usually find sharing paper - a mag, a book or chart, a TESM printout - more interactive than sharing electrons, then again that could mean I 'just don't get it'), and
2) I read a lot of the on-line critiques of paper magazines as wishing for more and more specialization - and that makes me afraid we'll be unlucky enough to get what we wish for.
Edited by Jay_Bird (06/30/08 10:20 PM)
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chexmix
sage
Reged: 12/01/04
Posts: 342
Loc: Arlington, MA, USA
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For my money (what money??) an excellent, very well considered and thought out article. Thanks, Rod, for articulating what has been vibrating through a lot of folks' heads ... well, mine, anyway ...
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8" Discovery DHQ
Celestron C102-HD
9x63 Orion mini-giants
(2) Frontally-placed visual organs, incl. lens, vitreous/aqueous humors, assorted rods, cones.
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RRaubach
AstroCowboy
Reged: 01/26/05
Posts: 2173
Loc: Douglas (Converse County),WY
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The mags no longer are "amateur astronomy", but are selling telescopes, accessories, etc. Teh articlesa re what I call "speculative sensationalism", discussions that the vast majority of dedicated readers couldn't care less about! I'm sure that the writers of "end of the universe" stuff think that it should sell magazines, but I want concrete information on "what's up" tonight, and how best to observe it. I believe that they have become "Discover" wannabes. I haven't bought many of the mags in the past year. There are continual recycles of the same questions, i.e. : "Is NASA Looking in the Right Places", etc., etc. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
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Rodger
Meade SN-10 (UHTC) on Tak EM-200 mount/Antares rotating rings. Moonlite focuser.
Parallax 14.5" Newtonian on HD 200 mount (arriving soon!) w/ conical Royce mirror.
TMB 203 f/7 APO refractor on Tak NJP-160 mount.
Discovery 12.5" PDHQ
Schneider 18x80 "Flakfernrohr" binoculars/tripod mounted. Canon 15x50 IS binoculars
Unihedron Sky Quality Meter
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Bob K
member
Reged: 05/13/06
Posts: 17
Loc: NE Pennsylvania
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I'm old enough to still enjoy sitting and reading a magazine at my leisure. To be honest, sitting in front of a computer screen is largely boring and, with my chronic back problem, a pain.
My biggest complaint, when I subscribed to these so called "niche" publications was that, more often than not, I found them on the news stands before they reached my mailbox. Now I submit that this is both a bad business practice and bad manners on the publishers part. Subscribers should get preference over shoppers. Why should I continue to advance subscription monies to the publishers to help them keep their heads above water when I can walk into a Barnes & Noble like any other non-subscriber, peruse the magazine, and chose to buy it or not based on the articles inside? That is what I am doing now with a number of Astronomy, Birding and Fly Fishing Magazines.
I agree with Hubert. Too often these magazines serve up thin gruel. I'm saving money too.
Bob
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"We live in an analog universe."
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naglertized
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/10/07
Posts: 1515
Loc: Jacksonville Florida
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Time to go digital/paperless. We have just implemented a EMR system at our newest office and it makes organizing and maintaining records so much more easier. Not to mention when you want to retrieve a patients chart, no fumbling through cabinets/drawers to find what you need. PDF publications are just fine with me. The local astro. club does not print its newsletter, it's a PDF. Printed copies can be requested. If you just gotta have it in your hot lil hands, that's what the print button is for.
10 cents
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Clinton
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xrayvizhen
member
Reged: 05/19/07
Posts: 54
Loc: Randolph, NJ
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I agree, for the most part, with the thrust of this article.
I thought S&T was back on the right track with their recent content changes, especially the "Telescope Workshop" which seemed to be a throwback to their old "Gleanings for ATM's" which was what first attracted me to the magazine in the early 1970's. Unfortunately, “Telescope Workshop” is more like an advertisement for someone else’s web-site the than an in-depth article.
For example, in the recent August issue, the cover proclaims “A Portable 6-inch Scope You Can Build Yourself”. However the column only features a brief description (less than 2 pages) of a 6” Travelscope, some cursory photos, but nothing that would help anyone construct anything remotely similar. If we want more information, we’re asked to go to the subject’s own web-site. That’s a far cry from the old “Gleanings.”
And therein lies the problem with magazines in general, and especially the niche or hobby periodicals like S&T. In depth coverage of just about any subject under the sun is available for free on the web. Why pay $5.99 (the single-issue price of S&T) for a glorified index? Well, I for one am still subscribing and still reading the magazine from cover to cover because just like reading a book, there’s something comforting and permanent about sitting on your favorite chair and holding something in your hands to read as opposed to doing it on a back-lit electric appliance.
It’s just unfortunate that there is less and less to read in the magazine and more and more to read on the back-lit appliance.
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Celestron NexStar 8SE
Meade LPI & Philips SPC900NC
Homemade 6" Newtonian
10x50 Binoculars
Barksa 20x80 Binoculars
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stevecoe
"The Astronomical Tourist"
Reged: 04/24/04
Posts: 2097
Loc: Arizona, USA
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Rod, et al;
I am perfectly clear about the problems with the magazines and it all comes down to money. They are owned by big corporations who have investors who insist upon profits. Rod has written for S&T and I have written for Astronomy for some years and it has been great to see my name in print and hear from folks who enjoy what I have written about. Yes, my ego is that big. I understand that for some people the Internet takes care of all their needs in this area.
I like having a magazine and settling into a comfy chair and browsing through the latest issue. It provides me information on a variety of subjects and it is convenient. I can move around the house or take it out with me to read at another location. I am not willing to deal with a battery powered device to do that.
There is also a sense of trust. If these folks work at a news agency in some form, then I generally trust what they have to say. The problem with the Internet is that if you ask a question you get bombarded with answers. Go to the eyepiece forum and post a "Is ___ eyepiece a good one?". Stand back and watch what happens. Every answer from "it is the most fabulous eyepiece ever" to "don't waste your money on this stinker" will appear. What is a novice to do with that type of feedback?
I get it that a magazine is generally a one way communication and you usually don't get an answer if you post a reply to Sky and Tell. But you can use their expertise about a particular item to see if it suits your needs. And, yes, they don't do enough equipment reviews and they are not detailed enough.
Right now, I am going to continue my subscriptions and read when and where I want, without having an electronic device in the loop. Maybe that will change.
Clear skies and no eye strain;
Steve Coe
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150mm 6" f/8 Celestron Refractor on Sirius Mount
80mmED 3" f/7.5 Orion Refractor
Author "Deep Sky Observing" Springer-Verlag
Author "Nebulae and How to Observe Them" Springer
New Canon Xt astrocamera with Hutech modification
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Marco Frissen
journeyman
Reged: 07/14/07
Posts: 9
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I agree partly with Rod, but Steve has a very good point as well.
Additionally, there's no mention of the corresponding websites of S&T and Astronomy. I think they are already using the internet more to their advantage. Especially Astronomy, as they have a well-thought out site with lots of information and easily navigatable. The S&T site is not as good, however (I guess the editor doesn't know that a serif font is not very good for onlilne reading...)
A good website is much better than an accompanying CD, like the sky at night has. Their website is almost empty with only basic stuff and a very quiet forum.
Personally I hope those ebook readers will become popular soon. I don't mind reading electronic books, but the current computers and their layout just doesn't offer a good way to read. eBook readers are just electronic books. If that would get mainstream, S&T and Astronomy and others may just as well distribute electronically.
In the meantime, I just renewed my subscription to Astronomy for another 3 years.. here's to the future 
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Argonavis
Vendor
Reged: 12/01/05
Posts: 85
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I am wondering which of these magazines will go totally digital, like Mercury has done. The cost of paper, printing and postage got too much.
It would be a brave move, and would only be taken as a last resort before closure.
But it may work - subscribes get a login, and can read the articles on line. Costs go down dramatically. However, I don't think the advertisers would like it, which would make it fail as revenue would shrink possibly more than costs.
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NorthCoast
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/05/04
Posts: 2193
Loc: Westerville, Ohio, U.S.A.
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Thanks, Rod, Spot on!
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Mark
Hold the "Alt Key" and type 248 on the number pad for °
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Cygnus_x1
Sketcher Extraordinaire
Reged: 11/17/04
Posts: 2108
Loc: Isle of Wight, England
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Quote:
I like having a magazine and settling into a comfy chair and browsing through the latest issue. It provides me information on a variety of subjects and it is convenient. I can move around the house or take it out with me to read at another location. I am not willing to deal with a battery powered device to do that.
I agree, because I also like a printed mag to take with me, for reading at lunchtime at work, or on train journeys, etc. I don't particularly want a pdf file subscription because I end up paying for the mag and then paying for the ink to make a printed copy as well.
I'd noticed how Astronomy (especially) and Sky and Telescope had thinned down in the past couple of years. At this rate they'll be nothing but a load of ads and a couple of pages on space news, coupled with the spread on what's visible in the sky on that given month.
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Visual Deep Sky Observing
Visual Astronomy blog
Fotopic astronomy gallery My photos from astronomy events, etc
8x42 binoculars 'light thimble'
4" refractor and 4" Meade SCT 'light cups'
12" Dobsonian 'light bucket'
Various TeleVue eyepieces
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EJN
super member
Reged: 11/01/05
Posts: 138
Loc: Pluto
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Quote:
The mags no longer are "amateur astronomy", but are selling telescopes, accessories, etc. Teh articlesa re what I call "speculative sensationalism", discussions that the vast majority of dedicated readers couldn't care less about!
What I miss more than anything are do-it-yourself project
articles and the near death of content relating to amateur telescope making.
The "science" articles used to be about mainstream research, but now are mostly about stuff on the speculative fringes of science.
I've been reading S & T since 1969, and in my opinion it
is a very weak shadow of its former self.
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Alan K
sage
Reged: 09/21/05
Posts: 235
Loc: Atlanta, USA
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I dropped S&T a couple of years ago. It seems the magazine is more about astonomy related topics than about the hobby of amature astronomy. Nothing really vital there.
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Meade LX90 (8" f/10 SCT), Orion StarBlast (4.5" f/4 Reflector)
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mcoren
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/11/06
Posts: 1138
Loc: Northern Virginia, USA
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I agree with many of Rod's points, although I don't agree that "The reality of the current economy is no doubt numero uno..." As Rod points out, these troubles have been brewing at the magazines for some time, long before the current economic downturn. I think he hit the nail on the head with the internet and the more connected amateur community of today versus twenty or more years ago.
One factor I didn't see mentioned is the growth of light pollution. People don't walk out of their homes and see the stars anymore, so they don't tend to wonder about them and actively go out to learn about them. As a result, the magazines are not gaining a lot of new subscribers.
As for my gripe with the magazines, S&T seems to have developed an annoying habbit of self promotion. A recent article on the discovery of Sirius B featured a photo of the aperture mask that former S&T editor Dennis DiCicco used to photograph it in 1970-something, which really added no value to the article IMHO. In another recent example, a reader question in the "Hobby Q&A" section asking why there are no green stars was answered with what amounted to "we answered that question in an article in our such-and-such month 1992 issue".
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Mike
Orion SkyQuest XT10
Suburban Washington DC
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brianclose
newbie
Reged: 07/10/07
Posts: 1
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I collect S&T, and have them back to 1960. Looking over it over time is quite interesting.
The biggest shift was in the 1980s with the SCT revolution. The magazine became a slave to two manufacturers. Articles were dumbed down (remember the firing of Bob the ATM editor?). The trend continued into the 90s when I finally had enough.
S&T also missed opportunities to lead the hobby. Remember CCD Magazine? They started and then canned it. On the one hand, I thought CCD content should have been expanded in the main magazine which I already was paying for, on the other hand CCD Magazine showed a glimmer that S&T finally got that they should help lead the hobby. Instead, after canceling CCD magazine I saw no significant increase in CCD coverage, especially "how to", which was left to books and the web.
So S&T has consistently ignored new and important trends or reported them late, or waited until Meade put out its own product for review (remember the PlanCam roll out?).
I really think that the domination of the magazine by two advertisers limited innovation and editorial content even before the web.
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Jeff Morgan
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/28/03
Posts: 1452
Loc: Prescott, AZ
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Quote:
I agree with many of Rod's points, although I don't agree that "The reality of the current economy is no doubt numero uno..." As Rod points out, these troubles have been brewing at the magazines for some time, long before the current economic downturn. I think he hit the nail on the head with the internet and the more connected amateur community of today versus twenty or more years ago.
Well put, a slow economy primarily kills off the "weak". Those reading the environment correctly and doing the "right thing" weather it out just fine.
Overall I think Rod covered it pretty well, although I am still wondering why a "conglomerate" would be interested in a low-volume niche mag like S&T. I'll put it my vote for more stuff in the back of the magazine and less in the front. The only amateur stuff that gets covered well is imaging (although those interested in imaging may disagree). Why not for example, have two or three articles per month on deep sky observing? There are lots of constellations up each month to be covered.
Definitely more equipment reviews. And when the product is flawed, please say so and stop trying so hard to find nice things to say about it. If you guys want to find something nice to say about a manufacturer, then why not do an in-depth personal interview or tour of their plant?
And of course, telescope making. Not just finished scopes built by master machinists that I could never do (although I must admit, I like those articles too), but some fundamental articles on things like optical fabrication or structural basics. Even reprinting the old articles from 30 years ago on these topics would be helpful.
Right now Sky & Tel is like a narcotic for me. I so much crave the day of its arrival in the mail and am ecstatic when I get my hands on each new issue. Then after about 20 minutes of fast skimming the high is over and I come crashing to earth again when the reality of the content sets in. I suspect that this will be a habit I kick at the end of the this subscription.
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Jeff Morgan
Prescott, AZ
Wile E. Coyote School of Telescope Making
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highfnum
super member
Reged: 09/06/06
Posts: 100
Loc: NY
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great article
i've been getting S&T since Aug '70
In some ways they are better -- product reviews are useful,
so is astrophoto technique
In some ways worse -- not enough ATM stuff
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ckwastro
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/23/05
Posts: 654
Loc: Out there like Pluto
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Nice article Rod. You nailed it, although I will say I'm one of those who do believe these magazines will not bite the hand that feeds them. I have yet to see a truly objective review of any equipment by the Big 2 in either publication. Perhaps I'm jaded when it comes to mass-produced instruments, but several times I was left scratching my head after reading the reviews on particular instruments I had either owned or used.
Having said that, it is a tragedy what's happening to these rags. I've found in both mags much repetitive info, too many glossy ads, and a on-going reduction in truly good content. Certainly not enough objective reviews. As a result, last year I let my subscriptions to BOTH magazines lapse. I was skimming most of the content looking for new info I could put to use. Some of the science-related articles were good, but I found much of their content to be repetition as well, with maybe 10% - 15% of the article's total volume pertaining to new information on the target subject.
Sad, as I usually prefer to sit down with a book, or magazine over reading on-line. I sit in front of a computer all day, and although I love CN and AMart, often I'll print out threads and /or reviews so I can sit down with them away from the computer. Hopefully they will survive, but they certainly need to re-think the direction they are headed.
Thanks for putting this out there Unk! Great job.
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Kerry
92mm AP Stowaway (f/7) / Giro 3 Twin View
10" dob w/Spooner primary / Tom O. Platform
10x42 Audubon Equinox
Bogen 3221 w / 3047 3-Way Head
Denk Std BV
Lots 'o EPs
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RRaubach
AstroCowboy
Reged: 01/26/05
Posts: 2173
Loc: Douglas (Converse County),WY
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I generally enjoy any articles written by serious amateurs; i.e. Sue Frrench, Alan Whitman, and their ilk. I like challenging observing projects: globulars in other galaxies, distant or extremely difficult planetaries, etc. The trend, however, is away from observing projects. It's always how great the newest iteration of a 40 year old telescope design! The "big two" always are featured in the testing of equipment. I'm truly sickened.
I began my subscription to Sky and Telescope in 1953 (with several significant lapses).
I don't really want to say R.I.P. to either of the rags, but they need to fulfill the needs and wishes of the BUYERS!
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Rodger
Meade SN-10 (UHTC) on Tak EM-200 mount/Antares rotating rings. Moonlite focuser.
Parallax 14.5" Newtonian on HD 200 mount (arriving soon!) w/ conical Royce mirror.
TMB 203 f/7 APO refractor on Tak NJP-160 mount.
Discovery 12.5" PDHQ
Schneider 18x80 "Flakfernrohr" binoculars/tripod mounted. Canon 15x50 IS binoculars
Unihedron Sky Quality Meter
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Jay_Bird
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/04/06
Posts: 669
Loc: Nevada 36N 115W
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In short, a lot of us don't want "a" magazine, we each want "MY" magazine - the one with a lot more of whatever we like and less of all that other stuff.
There is more being said here, but that is a good part of the comments.
I still like to peruse the edited, portable products of S&T enough to subscribe, and of Astronomy enough to buy occasionally. I enjoy the regular observing columnists and features and the surprise articles that are outside my bailiwick. With a 8-inch biggest scope and 50mm binoculars I feel plenty challenged by Sue French and other regulars.
I think the magazines generally feel less "buy new gear" consumption-driven than the web, since I can just flip past the ads when I know I don't have the money.
Web sites are also driven by advertising because someone has to pay for all this ( I will give my thanks to Astronomics here, both for CN, and for good values! ). Maybe the link to vendors seems more subtle here to some, because it's a click away, not a printed page advertisement, but it's still here.
CN often links readers back to older posts to answer questions - exactly like one complaint about S&T.
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'these things stand like stone - kindness in another's troubles, courage in your own' Gordon
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Nick Lloyd
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/24/06
Posts: 1565
Loc: cincinnati
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I like the format of ink and paper, and I'm willing to pay more for it. However, the content MUST be there.
Three questions:
1)What is the perfect astronomy magazine?
2)What is the highest price you would pay for it?
3)Does it need to come out every month, or could there be just 6-8 issues a year?
(my response)
1)Observing techniques and non-Messier targets
2)$8
3)I'd accept 6-8 issues a year, no problem.
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"The best scope is the one you use." -rcg
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