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Mike LofflandAdministrator
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Posts: 1121
Loc: Norman, Oklahoma
Uncle Rod, I Want to Take Pictures
      #2548207 - 07/29/08 12:06 PM

Uncle Rod, I Want to Take Pictures

By: Rod Mollise


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Simon Chung
member


Reged: 03/22/02
Posts: 64
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Re: Uncle Rod, I Want to Take Pictures new [Re: Mike Loffland]
      #2548517 - 07/29/08 02:59 PM

A nice article, Uncle Rod. Astrophotography is a great hobby but one that is difficult to master. The equipment has gotten more powerful (and sometimes easier to use) but still seems to me that it's more complex than it needs to be.

I'm still a film shooter but likely switching over to a DSLR soon.

Thanks for a great article.

Simon

--------------------
Borg 76ED
Orion Apex 90
10" f4.8 Dob w/ Paracorr
TV 5,9,16 Naglers, 24 Pan, 32 Plossl
Pentax 40XL


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Paul Romero
sage
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Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 477
Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Uncle Rod, I Want to Take Pictures new [Re: Simon Chung]
      #2548664 - 07/29/08 04:02 PM

Hi,

I'm at the point of getting out my old DSLR (Pentax *ist), instead of setting my sights lower than an SBIG ST2000. Hopefully in a couple of months, we'll see some more high end cameras come up in the used market. Anyways great article...I printed it out and read it for my afternoon nap/read LOL.

Clear Skies,

Paul

--------------------
Nexstar 11 GPS
8'x10' backyard 'skyshed'
and presenting...."Sweet Pudding", my AM 110mm FLT on 'Max', a MI-250 mount.
"Pablito Clavo un Clavito en la Calva de un Calvito"--by Jose A.


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stevecoe
"The Astronomical Tourist"
*****

Reged: 04/24/04
Posts: 2097
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: Uncle Rod, I Want to Take Pictures new [Re: Paul Romero]
      #2549003 - 07/29/08 07:00 PM

Rod;

I decided on the DSLR path and have enjoyed some piggybacking with a Hutech mod Canon Xt, plenty of camera for me. Arizona is covered in folks with much better astrophotography skills than me. Also, I find myself under beautiful clear skies just looking at a guide star and thinking "why aren't I observing?". So, I go out three or four times a year and take some shots and enjoy them, that is enough for me. I have the astro camera and a set of lenses from 28mm to 300mm and they allow to take some fun shots and "get it out of my system" so I can return to putting my eye to the eyepiece.

If another fabulous comet comes by--Maybe Comet Coe-Mollise?--I will get out and take lots more pictures. Until that time my "once a quarter" astrophotography trip is good enough.

The fabulous news about digital astrophotography is that the teenager at the developing machine does not get a shot at ruining your entire weekend of photos. "Hey dude, I scraped off them little dots for you".

It's all good;
Steve Coe

--------------------
150mm 6" f/8 Celestron Refractor on Sirius Mount
80mmED 3" f/7.5 Orion Refractor
Author "Deep Sky Observing" Springer-Verlag
Author "Nebulae and How to Observe Them" Springer
New Canon Xt astrocamera with Hutech modification


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rmollise
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Reged: 07/06/07
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Re: Uncle Rod, I Want to Take Pictures new [Re: stevecoe]
      #2549094 - 07/29/08 08:02 PM

Quote:



If another fabulous comet comes by--Maybe Comet Coe-Mollise?--I will get out and take lots more pictures. Until that time my "once a quarter" astrophotography trip is good enough.





HI Steve:

I gotta admit...the next time (SOON) a Hale-Bopp/Hyakutake or (better) West comes by, I' draggin' out the medium format film gear for one last hurrah.



--------------------
Uncle Rod

Watch for Rod's New Book:
Choosing and Using the New CATs--coming soon!


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Ptarmigan
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 09/23/04
Posts: 1834
Loc: Arctic
Re: Uncle Rod, I Want to Take Pictures new [Re: Mike Loffland]
      #2549241 - 07/29/08 09:28 PM

It is difficult, but it will garner you a lot of respect.

--------------------
Ptarmigans=Cute and Cuddly


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LateViewer
professor emeritus
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Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 593
Loc: Westchester NY
Re: Uncle Rod, I Want to Take Pictures new [Re: Ptarmigan]
      #2549645 - 07/30/08 01:28 AM

That was a mouth full.

Maybe sketching is the way to go.

Good article.

--------------------
12.5" Discovery String Truss Dob
DSV-1 Alt-Az Mount
WO 66mm Petzval
Orion 127mm Mak with WO 2" Dielectric Diagonal
Celestron CG-5 GoTo
8.8, 14, 18, and 24mm Meade UWA Series 5000 EP
32, 40mm Orion Optiluxe EP


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rmollise
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 07/06/07
Posts: 1358
Re: Uncle Rod, I Want to Take Pictures new [Re: LateViewer]
      #2549826 - 07/30/08 07:50 AM

Quote:

That was a mouth full.

Maybe sketching is the way to go.

Good article.




No matter how many pictures I take, good or bad, I always do come back to pencil and paper.

--------------------
Uncle Rod

Watch for Rod's New Book:
Choosing and Using the New CATs--coming soon!


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Patrick
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/16/03
Posts: 6685
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
Re: Uncle Rod, I Want to Take Pictures new [Re: Mike Loffland]
      #2550066 - 07/30/08 10:28 AM

As always, well said! Nice bit of history there to help keep things in perspective. Thanks!

Patrick

--------------------


Discovery 10" f/6 Split Tube Dob
Celestron C6S-GT SCT
Denk Binoviewers
AT66ED Refractor
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Binocular
475B Geared Tripod & 501HDV Head
Oberwerk 9x60 Binocular
Celestron Regal 8x42 Binocular
Canon 30D DSLR


My Astronomy Pages


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jgraham
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Reged: 12/02/04
Posts: 5153
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Re: Uncle Rod, I Want to Take Pictures new [Re: Patrick]
      #2550237 - 07/30/08 11:51 AM

It's one thing to look, it's another to see, and I've always found sketching helps me to see what I'm looking at. The only down-side is I'm no artist, and Photoshop doesn't seem to help as much with drawings as it does with images.

A very enjoyable article!

--------------------
-John
================================================
Homebuilt scopes from 4.25-16.5"
Meade LXD75-N6/SN6/SC8, DSX-90, ETX-60BB, ETX-125PE, DS-2130
Orion StarBlast, BinoViewers, Coronado PST
Rebel XT/XTi, DSI Pro, DSI, LPI, Electronic Eyepiece, Phillips SPC900NC
Tasco 60mm Refractors


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danm
sage
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Reged: 04/27/08
Posts: 228
Loc: Northern California
Re: Uncle Rod, I Want to Take Pictures new [Re: jgraham]
      #2550309 - 07/30/08 12:34 PM

Good article. I'm surprised you didn't mention the ultra low end cheap web cam starter options though - like the NexImage. For less than $100 somebody can see if they like taking pictures at all, it's almost a no-brainer.

--------------------
TV Ethos 13mm
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70
Celestron C6 f/10 & AT Voyager Alt/Az mount
8" f/6.3 Newtonian (Dad's ATM) & AT66 red tube
12.5" f/4.1 Telekit (Dad's ATM Mirror)


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rmollise
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Reged: 07/06/07
Posts: 1358
Re: Uncle Rod, I Want to Take Pictures new [Re: danm]
      #2550863 - 07/30/08 05:09 PM

Quote:

Good article. I'm surprised you didn't mention the ultra low end cheap web cam starter options though - like the NexImage. For less than $100 somebody can see if they like taking pictures at all, it's almost a no-brainer.




I've done my share of playin' with these things, and I did mention the SAC 7, which is a modified web cam. The thing is, though they can be modified for long exposure work, they are not really easy to use (at all) for that, and the focus here was on the deep sky. One 'o these days I'll do a rundown on webcams.

--------------------
Uncle Rod

Watch for Rod's New Book:
Choosing and Using the New CATs--coming soon!


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MtnGoat
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 02/18/07
Posts: 825
Loc: Columbia Gorge, WA
Re: Uncle Rod, I Want to Take Pictures new [Re: rmollise]
      #2551049 - 07/30/08 06:41 PM

Great article, Unca Rod.

I went the DSI-C route, and for the closeout price of $99, I couldn't be happier. What you said at the end about your first underexposed M51 is dead on. It's not like the pros, but I took it. .

--------------------
"Ignorant people think it's the noise which fighting cats make that is so aggravating, but it ain't so; it's the sickening grammar they use." Mark Twain



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danm
sage
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Reged: 04/27/08
Posts: 228
Loc: Northern California
Re: Uncle Rod, I Want to Take Pictures new [Re: MtnGoat]
      #2551557 - 07/30/08 10:53 PM

Check - I thought it was a getting started guide.

--------------------
TV Ethos 13mm
Oberwerk Ultra 15x70
Celestron C6 f/10 & AT Voyager Alt/Az mount
8" f/6.3 Newtonian (Dad's ATM) & AT66 red tube
12.5" f/4.1 Telekit (Dad's ATM Mirror)


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Mark Talon
member


Reged: 07/19/08
Posts: 39
Re: Uncle Rod, I Want to Take Pictures new [Re: danm]
      #2551913 - 07/31/08 06:52 AM

Hello all;
As always, that is a very well researched and written article. There are, however, a couple of minor points that I'd like to address.

The advantages of using a CCD sensor as oppsed to using a CMOS one for digital image capturing are lessening significantly with every new dSLR generation. This is due in no small part to the ever incresing ISO (formerly known as ASA)levels.

Simply put, ISO determines the sensors' (or films') sensitivity to light. With the current crop of entry level dSLR cameras routinely advertising ISO 1600 and higher levels, dSLR cameras are quickly becoming THE way to capture celestial images.

All newer generation dSLR cameras have a filter over the image capturing sensor which is called the Bayer array. Again, simply put, the Bayer array divides the sensors' level of sensitivity into the separate RGB spectrum. In other words, one photosite with use a red filter, the site next to it will have a green filter and then a red filter, etc. alternating between red and green. The next row of photosites will star off with a blue filter, followed by a blue filter, then green, alternating back and forth between blue and green.

Now, based on this alternating pattern, there will be twice as many green photosites as there are red or blues sites. This is because the human eye distinguishes green twice as easily as it does either red or blue. This translates into green becoming the predominate color in any given photo, with a camera settings being set to factory levels and no postprocessing being done.

This SEEMS like a severe disadvantage to using a dSLR camera in relation to using a dedicated astrophotography CCD camera, however, in reality it can become a HUGE advantage.

How? By adjusting the dSLR cameras' level of sensitivity to any one of the three primary colors, red, green or blue, we can now take photos which are predominately red satuarated, or green or blue on any combination of the three primary colors. The beautiful thing about this advantage is that it can done in-camera before the photograph has been captured or it can be accomplished just as easily and accurately in postprocessing, ie on a computer.

One of the reasons why dSLR cameras were not widely used in the past for astrophotography is because of the lack of live view. All dSLR cameras behave in the same manner as their 35mm film grandfathers, that is, the operator sees the image directly through the cameras' lens and in reality the operator is seeing the image exactly as the cameras' capturing device will record it.

It was very difficult to piggyback a camera because the user had no easy method of being able to view the image before capturing, therefore afocal photography became the method of choice, which subjected the camera to longer exposure times and far less accurate focusing.

Again, with more and more entry level dSLR cameras having live view incorporated into their designs, piggybacking is becoming more popular as the camera user is able to see the image on the cameras LCD screen before the image is captured in exactly the same manner as a digital point and shoot. Personally, for general usage I don't like live view, however it does have some very nice applications as in astrophotography and microphotography.

In fact, astrophotographyusing a dSLR camera is one of the reasons why I became a member of this forum. I've been an amateur astronomer since my early teens (more of a dedicated stargazer, actually) with photography being my main diversional pursuit, and it's only because my son has an increasing interest in astronomy that I have now ordered my first telescope, a Celestron Nexstar 8".

If a person takes between 20,000 and 40,000 photographs per year, such as I do, then a dSLR coupled to a telescope is a very natural evolution.

Awesomely good article, Uncle Rod! keep up the great writing.
Mark


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rmollise
Pooh-Bah
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Re: Uncle Rod, I Want to Take Pictures new [Re: Mark Talon]
      #2552252 - 07/31/08 10:51 AM

Quote:

Hello all;
As always, that is a very well researched and written article. There are, however, a couple of minor points that I'd like to address.





Great and informative post. I am squarely in the DSLR camp these days, I guess. Frankly I haven't pulled out a CCD since I got my Canon.


--------------------
Uncle Rod

Watch for Rod's New Book:
Choosing and Using the New CATs--coming soon!

Edited by rmollise (07/31/08 10:52 AM)


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danielsa42
journeyman


Reged: 03/31/06
Posts: 7
Re: Uncle Rod, I Want to Take Pictures new [Re: Mike Loffland]
      #2552558 - 07/31/08 01:17 PM

Great article Uncle Rod - thank you, thank you. Would love to see an article on "Processing AstroImages for Gallactic Dummies," Of course it would include definitions of the most basic terms, (e.g. "stacking") along with "and now you click on this tab. . ." for SBIG and other processing software.

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cnstarz
professor emeritus


Reged: 12/22/07
Posts: 526
Loc: Kentucky, USA
Re: Uncle Rod, I Want to Take Pictures new [Re: danielsa42]
      #2552723 - 07/31/08 02:45 PM

Once again you've managed to illuminate and elucidate on a topic that is near to my heart... Bravo!

I've been experimenting with an imaging system that consists of the following: ETX-60, DSI-C, #506 control, NASCAR PC
I've got well under 1k invested in the whole kit. As "trailer park" as this kit is there's more than enough challenge to keep my interest for a long while which is a testament to how far the technology has come. I'm looking forward to the future online resources like the LSST to take up where the DSI ends.
Keep up the good works!

--------------------
Matt

Apogee 50mm BB scope
ETX-60 BB
Meade 70-az
5" DIY Newt (wip)
C6-N on CG-4 GEM
Gallery


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Paul Romero
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Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 477
Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Uncle Rod, I Want to Take Pictures new [Re: Mark Talon]
      #2558705 - 08/04/08 01:05 AM

Quote:



By adjusting the dSLR cameras' level of sensitivity to any one of the three primary colors, red, green or blue, we can now take photos which are predominately red satuarated, or green or blue on any combination of the three primary colors. The beautiful thing about this advantage is that it can done in-camera before the photograph has been captured or it can be accomplished just as easily and accurately in postprocessing, ie on a computer.

Mark




Hi Mark, ..one word to the above paragraph ...How?. I have a Canon Xsi (a whole 2 days in my possesion), and I would love to increase sensitivity to Red.

Thanks,
Paul

--------------------
Nexstar 11 GPS
8'x10' backyard 'skyshed'
and presenting...."Sweet Pudding", my AM 110mm FLT on 'Max', a MI-250 mount.
"Pablito Clavo un Clavito en la Calva de un Calvito"--by Jose A.


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Mark Talon
member


Reged: 07/19/08
Posts: 39
Re: Uncle Rod, I Want to Take Pictures new [Re: Paul Romero]
      #2558826 - 08/04/08 03:35 AM

Hello Paul Romero;
First, in order to fully manipulate a digital image, you must first need to capture the image in something other than JPEG format. Personally, I never use the JPEG camera setting to capture images, as images can only be mildly adjusted in the post-processing stage.

I have a Sony dSLR camera and I use the included RAW processing program to manipulate my images on the computer. Canon has a similiar program although I can not recall it's name.

Images are easily manipulated when captured in RAW by using the post-processing programs' histograms. A histogram is capable of placing in graph format the 3 primary colors, RGB, along with a brightness histogram, often called the Y channel.

To increase or decrease red contrast, you simply raise or lower the red level anywhere in the histogram chart that you wish to have more or less red.

Also, to the best of my knowledge, all dLSR cameras have the same capability to increase or decrease sensitivity to the RGB spectrum and brightness, although I am unsure how a person would go about adjusting the setthings for a Canon product.

Personally, I'd leave the cameras' RGB setting at their default values and do all of the tweaking during post-processing. The resulting photo will look exactly the same no matter if it's been adjusted in-camera or on a computer afterwards.

I prefer doing all of my tweaking on a computer for the obvious reason that the computer monitor is many times larger and brighter than the cameras' LCD screen.
Mark


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Grouptele
super member


Reged: 08/11/07
Posts: 142
Loc: Qcy, IL
Re: Uncle Rod, I Want to Take Pictures new [Re: Mike Loffland]
      #2563385 - 08/06/08 07:15 AM

Uncle Rod,

Good article. I have been considering the move from small chip CCD to something larger, and your comments on DSLR's indeed offered a less expensive option to the "full body" CCD's.

But I did not see any comments on DSLR noise due to lack of active cooling. Have you encountered this with your DSLR? Do multiple, short (5min or less) captures cause enough heat noise to show in the images?

Victor.

--------------------
C8-XLT, G5, AT66
EQ-G
Starshoot color CCD
SPC900NC webcam



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