Mike Loffland
Web Guru (Astronomics)
   
Reged: 09/03/04
Posts: 2080
Loc: Norman, Oklahoma
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A New Refractor Concept: "The Wall Hypochromatic Refractor"
By: John Wall
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sludlinger
journeyman
Reged: 05/29/08
Posts: 5
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This is an old idea that didn't work 150 years ago and will not work today. Foolishly, I actually tried to ray trace it - nothing. Try it on a star and you will be very disappointed.
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GJJim
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/09/06
Posts: 907
Loc: Western CO
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It does offer performance slightly better than Galileo's refractor.
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gatorengineer
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 02/28/05
Posts: 882
Loc: Hellertown, PA
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Work is a relative term I guess. It appears to be a variant of a Petzval with a radically longer focus front lens. If the color correction is reasonable, it could prove a very affordable alternative to an achromat...... I think it bears further looking into before bashing, especially if the second set of lenses could be commercially available.... I smell possibilities of an 8" achromat for under a $1000.....
-------------------- 20" F5 Dob
16" Dob in pieces
Comet Catcher
MN71
12" Doc Clay Sky Patrol MEADE SCT
12.5" F4 Newt under construction
Siebert 45mm Binoviewers
Lots of binos---
Optics Past - 8" Stf Mak, 4" B&W triplet, 6"Schmidt newt, 12"LX200, C8, Meade LX10-10", 10" MEADE ACF, SN8, TAL150K, Orion 150MC, Jason 60mm refractor, ATM 6" F8, WO 110FLT, 92mm Off Axis Newt, Televue Genesis, Nikon 20x120 bino's, 15x110 Boarderguards, Kuhne Flaks
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Crayfordjon
Inventor
Reged: 06/17/09
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
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Horses for courses, try making one! you might change your mind, I am fully aware of it's short comings, but it is definitely better than a Galileo, in fact it is as good as some achros now on the market, I have made comparisons, A large 100mm binocular showed about the same degree of colour at the edge of the field. The OSLO thing again, but reductionism does not tell you what it is like to look through it. Star images now, you are wrong, I have star tested it, and was completly surprised to see that star images were free of colour exhibiting very tiny pin pricks of white light, bright stars look like sparkling diamonds, and are also very tiny, I expected to see disappointing star images as you predicted, not so amigo. I am interested in a reference of the system you made mention of , that it was tried 150 years ago, could you oblige source refs please. The merit of the Hypo is that it will make a very cheap and useful refractor that ATM's can make to get a feel for refractor construction. Finally, I have one hypo that is a 'grab and go' for looking at trhe moon or some interesting object tha is worth looking, including terrestrial.
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Crayfordjon
Inventor
Reged: 06/17/09
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
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Gatorengineer, hi,someone with a positive attitude at last. Take care, the long focus OG must be at least F:40, I recommend that you do not go above 5 inches. I have made a 5 inch Hypo, and fitted the optics into a case about 30 inches long, the folding flats need not be high precision, also don't go above X40 mag, this scope in definatelyn in the low power wide field intermediate aperture range.
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Crayfordjon
Inventor
Reged: 06/17/09
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
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Sludlinger, the Hypo is not a Petzval dialyte as you suggest. it has not flint lens in the system, and works by suppressing colour not correcting it. The sysrem comprises a singlet OG and a bino OG doublet, the doublet does not correct for colour it suppresses it, the Hypo is a newv idea.
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Crayfordjon
Inventor
Reged: 06/17/09
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
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It seems that reviewers of the article are taking one glance at it and then jumping to the conclusion that I have dug up a design by Alexander Rogers circa 1828. The similarity is such that one can jump to that conclusion, so I stress, read the article carefully and take notice of what I am saying, take a careful look at the diagram that compares the magnitudes of longitudinal chromatic aberration for a simple OG, the Hypo, and a control lens having a similar EFL as the Hypo. Nowhere is there a correcting flint lens near the reduction lens, there isn't one! so it is not a dialye , a Petzval or an Alexander Rogers. The similarity is purely coincidental. Color correction as such, is achieved by reducing the distance between the red and blue focus by use of a reduction lens, the fact that the amount of reduction is smaller than common sense would have it is exceptional, and this "effect" is the mainstay of the design.
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GJJim
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/09/06
Posts: 907
Loc: Western CO
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What exactly is an 8" f/40 refractor suited for?
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arpruss
scholastic sledgehammer
   
Reged: 05/23/08
Posts: 858
Loc: Waco, TX
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Quote:
What exactly is an 8" f/40 refractor suited for?
It wouldn't be F/40. The objective lens would be F/40, but the EFL would be much lower.
-------------------- Coulter Odyssey 13.1" split-tube
Coulter Odyssey 8"
Home-made 7.8" F/4 dobsonian travel scope
Home-made 68mm F/5.3 achro (typically used as finder on 13.1")
Skymaster 15x70
BPTs4 8x30
32mm Plossl, 30mm Rini, 27mm Kellner, 13mm Hyperion, 6mm TMB/BO Planetary, Owl 2X Barlow
Palm TX with AstroInfo and RescoViewer
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davide
member
Reged: 06/17/08
Posts: 11
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In my opinion it was not fair to compare the new system with a single lens at F:3. I think it would be more interesting to see if the Wall Hypochromatic Refractor has a color correction better or similar to a standard achromatic doublet with the same diameter and focal length (127/380 in the article). If it is the case, the advantage of the Wall Hypochromatic Refractor would be the lower cost (hopefully) and the disadvantage the larger dimensions. Is it correct? Is the large lens at F:30 or F:40 available commercially?
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Jim Rosenstock
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 07/14/05
Posts: 3720
Loc: MD, south of the DC Nebula
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IMO, davide is asking the right questions.
Personally, my knowledge of optics and optical theory is rudimetary at best, and my ATMing skills don't go much beyond building a simple Dob, so I'm not the one to evaluate this design, or to execute a prototype. I hope one or two such folks are reading this thread, though. 
To me, the $64,000 question is "What will this do better and/or cheaper than anything that's currently available?"
Awwww Heck. It's pretty tough to observe anything through a *theory*. Who's gonna *build* one??

Jim
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Crayfordjon
Inventor
Reged: 06/17/09
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
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Jim Rosenstock, Hi. I have built three prototypes,all of them give surprisingly good results, otherwise I would not have published the idea in the first place. Star images are tiny pinpricks of white light, larger stars sparkle like Sirius on the horizon, but are still very small dots, that is how serious the color is in this scope. Now, let us get the point straight, the hypo is not a rival to the apo, or even well corrected achro, it is a scope that has a little color left in the image towards the edge of the field, it is a cheap and cheerful scope that gives good results, after all it is made up of one weak lens and a bino OG! it is a fun scope, like a low power dob, ATM's can make them and get a feel for refractor work. The hypo is a low power wide field scope and it fits into the intermediate aperture range, from 3inches up to six, no more at the present, how many of you have a six inch refractor costing about $50! As for the OG, it has such a shallow curve that that it can be made easily, and you can use float crown glass, you need two folding flats to reduce the length of the tube, these need not be 20th wave but several waves in fact I make the flats by grindind and polishind two peices of glass and leave it at that, I have found no degradation. After all ,you accept spectacles without complaint, have you seen the colour at the edge of the lenses, and an OSLO analysis...well!
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Crayfordjon
Inventor
Reged: 06/17/09
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
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I think it only fair that you guys see some evidence of the performance of the Hypo. So here are some pics, one is a shot of a window 55m away at a power of X25, the scope is a 5inch F:3 with an EFL of 381mm, also the scope is the instrument that I used,it is 36 inches long. The moon shot was taken with a 76.2mm aperture Hypo, F: 5.1 EFL 388MM at a power of around X50. The moon shot is blurred due to the camera being hand held with a prevailing wind, but the visual image is extremly good, note that there is only a slight colour fringe around the limb of the moon.
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Crayfordjon
Inventor
Reged: 06/17/09
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
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and
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Crayfordjon
Inventor
Reged: 06/17/09
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
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finally
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Crayfordjon
Inventor
Reged: 06/17/09
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
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A final note. I was for some years night assistant on the 28 inch refractor at Greenwich, and the moon image in this scope had more colour than the moon shot I have submitted.
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davide
member
Reged: 06/17/08
Posts: 11
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I did few analysis with OSLO: indeed a large lens few meters in front of an achromat increases the chromatic shift just a bit. If I have well understood, the purpose is to upgrade a 60 or 80 mm achromat using a low power 120 or 150 mm lens (and a couple of flat mirrors). What about placing only one mirror in front of the OG and keep the telescope fixed? Like here: http://home.isoc.net/%7Eejones/A%2010%20Inch%20Window%20Scope3.htm
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Crayfordjon
Inventor
Reged: 06/17/09
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
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I disagree with you about shifting the CA just a bit, a typical Hypo will decrease the CA at about a 60 times reduction, one scope I set up on the optical bench has an aperture of 100mm at F:40, and will have a RtoB shift of 63.7mm as calculated, the reduction lens placed at 50% focus has a focal length of 330 mm, this will produce a back focus of 288mm giving a focal ratio to the system of F: 5.78, and an EFL of 578mm, the red to blue shift at the back focus is 1.5mm, this is a reduction of 51 times.I am constantly getting results of OSLO analysis which is just not right!! I set up the optics on an an optical bench and measure the parameters of the system, for instance the Rto B shift of the OG agrees with calculation, and so does the Rto B shift at the back focus, furthermore, I will say again that the image quality is very good, but OSLO seems to say otherwise, who is right?, the numbers crunchers or the experimental evidence, I know what I would rather believe. Take another look at my pictures of objects photographed through the 100mm Hypo, and ask youself is this bad?
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GJJim
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/09/06
Posts: 907
Loc: Western CO
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Here is a design that will produce a useful, large aperture refractor without exotic/expensive glasses. Unlike the Wall design, it does not have a soda-straw FOV and it could be used for astrophotography. Any amateur can build one of these from scratch, or if they're lucky, by using the right combination of surplus optics. The only drawback is length, and that could be addressed by folding the optical path.
http://astro.umsystem.edu/atm/ARCHIVES/APR00/msg00167.html
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Crayfordjon
Inventor
Reged: 06/17/09
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
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I dispute the "soda straw" FOV bit, as I have actually looked through A Wall, and the field looks clean and flat, another OSLO edict I see.
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Crayfordjon
Inventor
Reged: 06/17/09
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
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Sorry GJJIM, the Hypo does not have a soda straw FOV, when I look through my built and working prototype Hypo's I see a wide flat well corrected field of about 5 degrees, and all in sharp focus. May I suggest that you guys out there to try and build one and see for yourselves. It aso works well as a photographic scope as well. look at the pics of the window. There seems to be a wide discrepancy between what OSLO tells you and what really happens.
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Lensman
member
Reged: 12/31/05
Posts: 17
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I'm going to make this brief, sorry, it won't be soft but it will be straightforward.
The idea that some really really low lying fruit has been missed for the last 250 years is just amazing. I recommend taking a course in aberration theory and working through Kingslake or (Warren) Smith before thinking of making public pronouncements about discovering new classes of optical systems.
The achromat is a self compensated optical component or module. It only has power, the only thing it can really do behind a long focal length singlet objective is adjust the overall focal length. It has no primary color aberration with which it can compensate the singlet. The color wavefront aberration at the focal plane will be essentially unchanged with the addition of the achromat. Don't believe me? Then raytrace for optical path difference.
Oslo wrong? Oslo, Zemax, CodeV, SODA, all of these programs have been used by thousands of professional optical designers for decades now and you are saying Oslo is giving wrong results? I've used these programs, including Oslo, EVERY DAY YEAR AFTER YEAR FOR OVER 20 YEARS to produce highly complicated designs that have been built, and have worked as designed. You need to reconsider why you are reaching inconsistent conclusions.
This isn't a "design" that warrants a designation. It's a folded telecompressed singlet telescope, that's all. If one wants to make something of it, all I can come up with is it has a bizarre chronological juxtaposition. That is, to render the obsolete singlet technology somewhat more practical it uses the very technology developed to replace the singlet, the achromat.
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dougspeterson
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 1041
Loc: Murrieta, CA
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The reduced longitudinal distance between colors with and without the compressor is really just a measure of the compression ratio, not the color correction, because the airy disk is dramatically different in size.
Color at 25x is not good. Any good achromat looks fine at low powers, better than shown here in fact. The real test is at high powers, where the color blur is about 3 airy disk diameters for reasonable achromatism.
Thinking outside the box is great, but I would want my name off this design in a hurry.
Shouldn't it be "hyper--"?
Edited by dougspeterson (09/07/09 10:07 AM)
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Crayfordjon
Inventor
Reged: 06/17/09
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
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I aquired a cheap 70X 25 binocular, £25, original price £50, They were not very good, but I am stripping them for the 70mm OGs. I took a pic of a target window at 55m dist with the binos and with a 70mm Hypo, and compared them, I think that you will find that the hypo gives the better image, not bad for a scope with a soda straw focal plane dont you think.
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Crayfordjon
Inventor
Reged: 06/17/09
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
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Two pics for comparison, one taken through one barrel of a 25 X70 binocular, and another through a 70mm Hypo X25. The Hypo gives a better image don't you think, not bad for a scope with a soda straw FOV.In real terms the hypo would cost about a tenth of the bino. First pic the bino image of a target window 55m away.
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Crayfordjon
Inventor
Reged: 06/17/09
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
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And the hypo image
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Crayfordjon
Inventor
Reged: 06/17/09
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
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Ahhh a blast from the pros at last, Ive stepped on some toes....sorry, now I make no claim that I have discovered an entirely new type of optical system as I have constantly been at pains to explain, I have found no reference to the system in the literature so it is as far as I am concerned unique. Now I will say it once more, quote: the system lends itself to very cheap construction by the "ordinary Amateur", and is not aimed at the pros. The image quality is very good for what it is, and in my opinion it is good enough to use on the sky, I have tested it for that. It will work very well at powers of around X20, in other words as a monocular, and it has a wide field of around 5 degrees. In spite of OLSO to the contrary which so far shows up the system to be rubbish... not so, experimental proof says otherwise. The correct scientific principle is of formulating an hypothesis then testing it with experiment, if they do not tally within certain limits then the hypothesis is changed an so on until hypothesis matches experiment. I am sorry in spite of all the huff and puff the experimental results tell the true story. I am very happy to have to have my name on the telescope, after all I have not a professional reputation to place at jeapardy, however delicate, and I am not afraid to stick my neck out and defend that which I found to be right.
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dougspeterson
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 1041
Loc: Murrieta, CA
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I don't think you've stepped on any pros toes. A computer model would show that at very low powers of 20x on 5" the image might be usable. So would almost any design, such as a spherical mirror reflector.
But with trying to find such an odd objective, a couple of fold mirrors and the dealing with the folded structure it seems to me a 120mm F5 or 150mm OTA from Orion or Celestron might be money better spent.
On your chart you show reduction numbers, but you are showing only the color separation in mm. What you want to know is the percentage of focal length, for instance 1/2000F for a typical achro. The figure of merit you use shows a 5"F3 lens having better color correction than the F40! What is the % of effective focal length for these designs?
-------------------- 18" Dob
12" SCT
8" TMB F6 + Chromacor
6" F6 APM/LZOS Fluorite triplet, 32", 32lbs
2ea. 6mm singlets, one blind
"--Granted, that's a worse case scenario. The destruction might in fact be ... limited to our own galaxy."
Edited by dougspeterson (09/07/09 06:48 PM)
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dougspeterson
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 1041
Loc: Murrieta, CA
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Actually the 5" F40 is 5080/94mm is 54, which is the dispersion of the glass.
The 5"F3 is 381/6mm = 64, another typical glass.
Your compound system is 381 EFL / 0.6mm = 635, or about 4x an achromat at F/2000. Of course we are talking about primary vs secondary spectrum.
Something doesn't compute.
You say at one point you used a 2" objective halfway to focus of a 6" lens, this would of course stop-down the system.
-------------------- 18" Dob
12" SCT
8" TMB F6 + Chromacor
6" F6 APM/LZOS Fluorite triplet, 32", 32lbs
2ea. 6mm singlets, one blind
"--Granted, that's a worse case scenario. The destruction might in fact be ... limited to our own galaxy."
Edited by dougspeterson (09/07/09 08:23 PM)
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Crayfordjon
Inventor
Reged: 06/17/09
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
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Hi Doug, the chart shows the parameters for a system that exists as actual hardware on an optical bench, all of the colour separations have been measured and agree with calculations with a very small deviation. The second lens can be shifted towards the prime focus enough to eliminate stop down of the OG without much alteration. The scope does work at very low power, I have always emphasised this, and works well at around X25, higher than that nd the colour becomes serious: it is a low power scope, nothing more.Look at my pics that I have posted, and ask yourself, are they bad?
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Crayfordjon
Inventor
Reged: 06/17/09
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
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Doug, I computed the colour dispersion for the weak lens, between red and blue by calculating the radius of curvature which is f(Nd-1) for helium light. I then divided the R/C by the refractive indices for for red and blue using BK7, I then got the dispersion along the optical axis or the amount of chromatic aberration, The achro reducing lens is placed at a little more than half the focal length of the OG, the separation distance of the reduction lens from the OG I designate L. I then calculated the dipersion that would occur at the back focus BF by subtracting L from the f/L's for red and blue to get to get P red and P blue, these being the distance from the prime focus to the reduction lens. The calculation to get the dispersion at BF is: 1/ focal length of the reduction lens + 1/ p for red and blue. I do this for all of the systems that I have set up and get a RtoB sep at BF of anything from 1.0mm to 0.4mm depending on the arrangement being tested. the measurements of BF red and BF blue tally very closely to the calculated positions. The OG has a very shallow curve and is very easily made, there is no need to test plate it. The reduction lens is an old bino OG. when the system is set up and you take a peek through it using a 20mm Plossl, you are emmediatly struck by how clean and brilliant the images are, and the focus is very sharp, there is a slight amount of colour in the images which is no worse than that which you get with an ordinary refractor, and certainly with a bino of he middle price range, it does not compare with an Apo naturally. The scope is a novelty, and I hope that there are practical ATM's out there who will have a go at making one instead of shooting it down in flames, IT WORKS, look at my pics again, carefully without dismissing it as rubbish.
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Lensman
member
Reged: 12/31/05
Posts: 17
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Most articles on CN are fairly harmless regarding content and accuracy, some are pretty good, some are awful (but still mostly harmless). Your article does get my hair up. Puttering about in the lab by the garden window doing "research", that's nice, right up to the point you start trying to claim some "new optical principle". It's clear to me you don't know much optical theory because if you did you'd know there aren't any hidden rooms holding optical treasures, waiting to be discovered by positioning a couple of lenses. It's all in the theory, it's all been done, or not, if there is clearly no merit to the idea.
You keep claiming it works, I believe you. I believe it works just like an ancient singlet telescope - why would the ancients have taken the trouble to devise them in the first place if it didn't work? However, the attempt to stake your place in optical history, I suppose that's human nature. It is also human nature that it's the point you will be called out - I'm calling you out now to prove your claim.
You say you have a hypothesis but I would say you've skipped over it to some observations and right on to a conclusion upon which you get a "new principle" named after you by the BAA, whoever they are. Aside from the hypothesis where is your theory and derivations that describe and prove your claims? Your "experimental proof" would be laughed at in any scientific review.
I made the statement yesterday that this system is nothing more than a folded and telecompressed singlet telescope. I absolutely stand by this statement. The system you describe has absolutely the same transverse color aberration relative to the Airy disc, and therefore the same wavefront color aberration as the singlet alone. There is no "suppression of color". There is no practical improvement over the singlet used alone, unless you consider folding and a faster f-number improvements. But folding and telecompressing aren't new.
The basis of your claim is the large decrease in longitudinal CA but you have interpreted this decrease in the longitudinal CA incorrectly. In this design the longitudinal CA does varies to the square of the reduction ratio, just as you have seen in your experiments. But that's just geometry, work it through and you will see. The important thing is the transverse aberration varies in direct proportion with the reduction ratio, as does the Airy disc diameter. What that means is the color wavefront error is exactly the same no matter what the reduction ratio is.
Just to get a reality check I ran a design on Zemax to get some numbers.
Singlet BK7, 125mm aperture, 5000mm efl, F40
"reduction" lens - paraxial lens f=200
I ran two designs. one with just the singlet, and one with the singlet and the reduction lens spaced (about 3800mm) to produce a efl of 760mm (F/6.08). This is a reduction ratio of about 6.5
The different of the C-F focus is 77.4mm for the singlet alone (5000mm/v-number) = 77.4mm
The difference of the C-F focus is 1.82mm for the reduced system. This is a reduction of 42.5. The square root of 42.5 is 6.5
The OPD (wavefront) plot for each system is identical, about 10 waves of D (~6um).
The transverse aberration does scale with the reduction ratio but so does the Airy disc.
F40 singlet
Airy radius 28.7um
Blue radius 685um 24X
Red radius 295um 10X
F6.08
Airy radius 4.4um
Blue radius 105um 24X
Red radius 44um 10X
Yesterday I stated the fact that an achromat only possesses optical power in this system. Just to forestall the question about the paraxial lens I replaced the paraxial lens with a nominal binocular achromat objective - BK7/F4 50mm diameter and 200mm efl. The results are essentially identical to the paraxial version.
Rehashing your observations and stating you see what you see and therefore you are right regardless of what your critics say is worthless. Let us see some theory and math. If you have such confidence submit your "design" paper to a refereed journal such as The Journal of Applied Optics, they would be incredibly interested in a "new optical principle" I'm sure.
Incidently, I have no reputation on CN I know of that I need to protect. I've published in refereed journals - not an easy or pleasant endeavor - and I'm regularly grilled in design reviews by people who have little sympathy for my feelings. That's the life of this "delicate Pro".
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Crayfordjon
Inventor
Reged: 06/17/09
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
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It is a folded and telecompressed singlet, as I have been saying all along, it is nothing more than a very simple refractor as I have been saying all along, it has colour and it must be used at very low power, as I have been saying all along, I have not discovered a new optical principle, only an interesting effect, no more, it does not merit exhaustive OSLO analysis because it it is not worth it, but A colleague did one months ago, so I know precisely what it can and cannot do. Investigating a new and interesting idea is research! and I do it with an optical bench pointing out of a window, so what! The article for the BAA was not a formal paper, but a note in the long letters column. As for rigorous and exhaustive investigation up to paper level in any of the optical journals, I have in collaboration with a friend and colleague developed a retro focally corrected dialyte that has a Strehl ratio of 0.998, it is apocromatic and will stand powers up to X600 without showing any colour. and has the correct diffraction pattern for star images. This telescope is ready to be launched onto the market in the near future, so dont tell me I know nothing about optical theory. I have had enough of this hostility from the "It can't be done" brigade and I withdraw from all further discussion.
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spaceydee
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/16/04
Posts: 16125
Loc: Where the Kittens Are
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Folks, a reminder from the Cloudy Nights Terms of Service :
Simply put, the following behavior is expected from users:
* Play Nice * Share * Be Polite * Be Honest * Respect other members & the administrators and moderators who are working
Please keep all discussions polite and respectful.
-------------------- Dee
space-scientist
student violinist
Nexstar8i,SV80S,80/9D,FC100,94 Brandon,TMB92SS,GM8
8" f/7 Discovery,12.5" Portaball, PST
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Lensman
member
Reged: 12/31/05
Posts: 17
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"The system stands alone as an entirely new concept in a class of it’s own."
"Firstly one can say that an uncorrected OG is being corrected by the suppression effect of a short focus achromat acting as a reduction lens; this has already been stated"
"Provenance for this discovery by the author..."
While I think many of the new statements you made about the system in your latest post are accurate or far more appropriate there are several statements in your article that are now inconsistent with them - I list these article statements above. As long as the article stands as it is I wonder just what you want people to believe.
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dougspeterson
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 1041
Loc: Murrieta, CA
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Wow, someone id'd as John S. just hit Lensman above with a one star rating for pointing out the problems with the concept. Is that legal? He used an apparently bogus ad number.
-------------------- 18" Dob
12" SCT
8" TMB F6 + Chromacor
6" F6 APM/LZOS Fluorite triplet, 32", 32lbs
2ea. 6mm singlets, one blind
"--Granted, that's a worse case scenario. The destruction might in fact be ... limited to our own galaxy."
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desertstars
Please stand by...
   
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 34586
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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No, it is not "legal." I have removed the rating.
-------------------- Tom W.
Collinder's Catalog
Jewels in Dark Settings
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dougspeterson
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 1041
Loc: Murrieta, CA
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The Zerochromat appears to be the other design Wall refers to. It would be interesting to see what goes on inside that corrector tube.
http://www.zerochromat.com/
-------------------- 18" Dob
12" SCT
8" TMB F6 + Chromacor
6" F6 APM/LZOS Fluorite triplet, 32", 32lbs
2ea. 6mm singlets, one blind
"--Granted, that's a worse case scenario. The destruction might in fact be ... limited to our own galaxy."
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sludlinger
journeyman
Reged: 05/29/08
Posts: 5
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[snip] content removed by forum moderator
Edited by spaceydee (09/14/09 12:23 PM)
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dougspeterson
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 1041
Loc: Murrieta, CA
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On the ATM forum, John is referring to being "nit-picked", but the critique is very fundamantal and educational, and a lesson in optical engineering for those following this thread. All of us would like to come up with something revolutionary, but you have to do your homework. (I point specifically to the error that introducing a compresssor lens somehow supresses color, when in fact all it does shorten the focal length and the color spread by exactly the same amount. By now he, and interested observers, must understand this.)
I think this analysis by several experts with OSLO and Zemax software is healthy criticism in the spirit of scientific and engineering peer review.
-------------------- 18" Dob
12" SCT
8" TMB F6 + Chromacor
6" F6 APM/LZOS Fluorite triplet, 32", 32lbs
2ea. 6mm singlets, one blind
"--Granted, that's a worse case scenario. The destruction might in fact be ... limited to our own galaxy."
Edited by dougspeterson (09/14/09 09:51 AM)
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sludlinger
journeyman
Reged: 05/29/08
Posts: 5
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Before I made my first post I modeled an f/5 binocular objective in Zemax and then put a single lens in front of it. Keeping all the perameters for the objective locked I then moved the single lens around and optimized it as best I could. In a word, it stunk. Essentially you take an objective that will in and of itself generate large amounts of secondary spectrum and then have it attempt to reduce even more secondary spectrum without having any real compensating ability. There is nothing here.
After I made that Zemax anaysis I felt foolish but I do not like to make posts without being thorough.
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Crayfordjon
Inventor
Reged: 06/17/09
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
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It is an ugly child, I know more than you that it is not a viably serious telescope, and nothing more than an interesting idea, but I was at pains to explain all this in the article, but you all ignored that because you scanned through the article and overreacted in a most ridiculous fashion, I had the temerity to milk a sacred cow, tough!, you dont like it, Tough! next time take something like this less seriousy for what it is. I have tested these scopes on stars at a power of X24 and the stars look white, and are tiny pin pricks, first mag stars are coloured but are still pinpricks, and look like diamonds scintillating. Jupiter is a white disk, the satellites are very tiny points of white light. The proof is in the pudding folks, here we have the theory boys pontificating like Greeks theorising about the nature of the world without trying the experiments. I love the ugly child! its mine, warts and all, and I ask, how many of you have come up with a really original break away idea, I suspect none. As for the Zerochromat, it has been vetted by a top optical scientist in the UK,it has been thoroughly analysed and brought to a very high apochromatic correction by my colleage who is a professional telescope maker and vendor, it will in due course be going on the market.
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dougspeterson
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 1041
Loc: Murrieta, CA
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Indeed Peter Wise's computer-optimised Zerochromat, subaperture-corrector newtonians, and the Evolution scope are all thinking outside of the box and attempts to address fundamental limitations that most engineers had given up on--ingenuity similar to Valery/Aries Chromacor.
-------------------- 18" Dob
12" SCT
8" TMB F6 + Chromacor
6" F6 APM/LZOS Fluorite triplet, 32", 32lbs
2ea. 6mm singlets, one blind
"--Granted, that's a worse case scenario. The destruction might in fact be ... limited to our own galaxy."
Edited by dougspeterson (09/23/09 04:59 AM)
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