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Vic Menard
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 07/21/04

Loc: Bradenton, FL
Re: The South Cave Collimator System new [Re: peter clark]
      #3552681 - 01/10/10 07:41 PM

Quote:

Hello again Vic. Why ‘attachments?’ Far cheaper than typing on line through my phone exchange old line and dial up. Great skies though, mag.5.8 often.



I think it's easier for the other readers of this thread if I respond to your attachment directly--so I copied and pasted it here.

Quote:

My ‘slewing sideways’ is the effect of turning sec. adj. bolts 2 or 3 singly or in opposite directions.



That's the tilt motion I refer to as "skew" (as it skews the diagonal aim away from the plane defined by the focal point, the intercept point on the secondary mirror, and the point defining the center of the primary mirror).

Quote:

Jeez, the reams we’ve all added since Norton’s 1950 2/3rd’s page for all of collimating.



That's a fact! Gone are the days of 6-inch f/8 reflectors that were collimated by eye, making all of the reflections look "concentric".

Quote:

...PJV’s 3rd para. Begin reading at TURNED DOWN EDGE for list of symptoms when you realise even the SCC system has got you only to the end of the beginning of sorting a Newtonian.



You'll have to excuse me but I'm still confused, I assume this is the PJV article you're referring to: Testing Optics You had noted in the earlier attachment to me, "For when perfect collimation is alas clearly only the end of the beginning, I can do no better than to recommend the 3rd paragraph of Testing Optics, by P.J. Violin, on this web site." I fail to see what a turned edge has to do with "perfect collimation". I can't decide if you're implying that a turned edge limits the alignment read, or if in the presence of a turned edge, precision alignment is less important?

Quote:

...You’re final para. Thanks Vic. I may be 50 years into being qualified in sextant optics, correction and use, but only 5 as a telescope amateur and have a history of good inventions which others make money from. A woman has just paraded my 15-year-old stand up urinal for women on Dragon’s Den! Complete list by request.



Which final paragraph are you alluding to?

Quote:

Anyway, I will submit to editors of respected publications the following correction, …’until the day of the Cheshire when the type of primary centre mark I used at f/6 and fl 1200 was reflected at f/4.4 as a large unclear black blob. It seems that no one centre mark preference will do for all. It must be special/calibrated(your word) for each and merciless to duds.’



Actually, I believe Nils Olof was the first to comment on "calibrated" Cheshire eyepiece/center spots. One size works for any focal ratio (although two sizes are available from CatsEye Collimation to accommodate 1.25- and 2-inch Cheshires made by that company). And again, I miss the meaning of your closing remark, "...merciless to duds." Most Cheshire collimation tools I've used will work with any primary mirror center spot (a calibrated center spot clarifies the read and improves the resolution to about 0.005-inch). Before the Barlowed laser was invented by Nils Olof, the Cheshire eyepiece was the only tool available capable of reading just the primary mirror error as well as magnifying the error 2X. It was Tectron Telescopes most popular alignment tool, almost certainly because it was so easy to use.

Quote:

...Still confused? You ain’t seen nothing yet. Try downloading V367.



I think I'm less confused than I was after reading your review posted in this thread. And I'm no masochist, but if you'll direct me to the url to download V367, I'll try downloading it.


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peter clark
member


Reged: 09/25/07

Re: The South Cave Collimator System new [Re: Jason D]
      #3554665 - 01/11/10 05:41 PM

To Jason,
Thanks.I'd just realised your thoughts on axial alignment ommission and already put in the article for its development that axial's given by the intersection of the cross hairs on the collimating front cover. Acurate from the first collimating touch to align everything else to and hardly thought about in practice; a bonus. With a Cheshire I'd say. axial has to be worked at after the first round of full sec. and primary collimation. This is short enough not to do as an attachment!


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Jason D
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 10/21/06

Loc: California
Re: The South Cave Collimator System new [Re: peter clark]
      #3555038 - 01/11/10 09:03 PM

Peter, it is not clear to me if you agree with my last post or not? If you agree with my last post, then you are agreeing that your collimation solution is deficient. If you disagree with my last post, then let me know which part of my post you disagree with and why.
Jason


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peter clark
member


Reged: 09/25/07

Re: The South Cave Collimator System new [Re: Jason D]
      #3556449 - 01/12/10 03:30 PM

Jim (2) the CFC is on one end of the axis, the eye is at the other, things in between aid alignment. You get these gunsights on the optical axis or axes if you think there are two whilst skewed. Great scientific drawings, Jim, I'll download them. My telescope designer, Peter Wise, says collimating is all optical experiment, with anything scientific best kept in the design stage or last, like when having your eyes tested.

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peter clark
member


Reged: 09/25/07

Re: The South Cave Collimator System new [Re: Jason D]
      #3556487 - 01/12/10 03:49 PM

Correction. For Jim read Jason.Sorry Jason. Yes Jim, stage [1] in minutes. Results so wonderful I've been happy to spend 6 months getting to this tossing around stage. great to have your funnies. I must develop more verses of mine to m and c's office.

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Jason D
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 10/21/06

Loc: California
Re: The South Cave Collimator System new [Re: peter clark]
      #3556488 - 01/12/10 03:49 PM

Hello Peter,
I was hoping for a simpler and more direct reply from you.
Our perspectives about telescope collimation are different. The terms you use and the concepts you are referencing are very different from what I am accustomed to. I thought I understood your invention at one point but now I doubt I ever did; therefore, I am unable to continue with this discussion. I assure you I do not mean any disrespect.
Good luck!!!
Jason


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peter clark
member


Reged: 09/25/07

Re: The South Cave Collimator System new [Re: Jason D]
      #3565677 - 01/17/10 05:57 AM

Because, Jason, I can type faster than I c an spell!
I align the focuser axis with hardsly a thought initially by aligning the curser with the vertical x hair using the two eyepiece aligning and tightening grub screws or split clamping collar, adjuster and single grub screw. Then the cursor of the peephole can be thereafter at haphazard attitude as shown in Fig.2 and 3, and I confess waqs drawn thus to create the interest you have shown.
Yours and everyone's description of the function of the star test was just what I did until my stumble on 17/18 May 2009, in the best traditions of discovery, scientific or otherwise.
Your stage B is at '2ndry collimated without magnification'; good enough up to 200x and more if not interested in faint stars or sharp images, and if there's a tad of sph.abrn. to cloud things unconciously and conceil all.
My stage 2 to 4 is the secondary beeing fine tuned on a star at 200 to 450x, endding with your primary axis alignment we can call stage 5.

Actual Cheshire instead of a combi tool. Thats how my peephole works. I could have had one instead of the film canister for use with the CFC, but advice 4 years ago routed me via the laser colllimator. i.e. If I'd had a Cheshire I'd still have invented the CFC.
Tomorrow night at the astro society we are going to pretend the Cheshire came after the special peephole cap.


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Jason D
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 10/21/06

Loc: California
Re: The South Cave Collimator System new [Re: peter clark]
      #3566105 - 01/17/10 12:19 PM

Peter, I am not judging your invention at this time because I do not adequately understand it.

I wish other members would join in and express their opinions about your invention. Getting feedback from a larger number of members would be more helpful. So far, only few of us commented on your invention.

Jason


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peter clark
member


Reged: 09/25/07

Re: The South Cave Collimator System new [Re: Jason D]
      #3569041 - 01/18/10 06:27 PM

To all helpful contributors. 3 hours ago with a Cheshire combi in the f4.4 Bresser, everything was clearly defined in the different lighting. So if you get a perception problem with mine or the Cheshire, change the lighting, try with the CFC off; was best with the CFC on with the Cheshire.
All your comments will go towards producing a better article. Meantime, why not make one and try it?


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peter clark
member


Reged: 09/25/07

Re: The South Cave Collimator System new [Re: peter clark]
      #3569051 - 01/18/10 06:34 PM

Finals now I think! DelEte TURNED DOWN EDGE. Insert BEGIN HERE.
Just go into Google with, V367 Cygni. To me all was revealed thereby.


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peter clark
member


Reged: 09/25/07

Re: The South Cave Collimator System new [Re: Jim Rosenstock]
      #3585819 - 01/26/10 07:46 PM

Great stuff, Jim. Looks like the shortest way tospot on colimation is to do the primary after or before each stage of 2ndry, hoping for previous efforts to eliminate any more 2ndry. I've just sent an instructions only version to friends, sayin,If they wouldn't send it to august publication, I'll be round. There must be No can of worms for beginners. Hope these overcast skies have some advantages. Jeex=ze, the efffort to be grammar correct acr0ss the pond. pETER c.

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peter clark
member


Reged: 09/25/07

Re: The South Cave Collimator System new [Re: Vic Menard]
      #3968872 - 08/07/10 07:08 AM

Dear Vic,
You are welcome to use my recent up-date, 'Collimating a Newtonian with the South Cave Collimator' on this site, in any further edition of 'New Perspectives on Newtonian Collimation.' It has been accepted for publication in the next newletter of the Federation of Astronomical Societes
and should be on their website too.


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peter clark
member


Reged: 09/25/07

Re: The South Cave Collimator System new [Re: nirvanix]
      #4156863 - 11/01/10 05:55 PM

How have you got on with giving the South Cave Collimator a try? It's on a small production trial right now.
Best regards,
Peter Clark


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Sarkikos
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 12/18/07

Loc: Scotophobe Maryland, USA
Re: The South Cave Collimator System new [Re: peter clark]
      #4160639 - 11/03/10 11:56 AM

I collimate my scopes using a dowsing rod and a crystal ball. Instead of seeing into the past, now I see into the future. The downside is that you must be a 33rd Degree Wizard to operate the dowsing rod and crystal ball ... either that or be a Post Laureate here on Cloudy Nights. Same thing, actually.

Mike


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johnnyha
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 11/12/06

Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
Re: The South Cave Collimator System new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #4160904 - 11/03/10 02:00 PM

Peter my spider is centered, why not collimate to that instead of a see-thru cap?

You have an interesting writing style by the way Peter, it is almost like you write in another language and then use google translator.


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peter clark
member


Reged: 09/25/07

Re: The South Cave Collimator System new [Re: johnnyha]
      #4165237 - 11/05/10 11:20 AM

Hello Johnny,
You'll see that what you ask is covered in my second article,'Collimating the Newtonian with the South Cave Collimator' at end of para. begining, 'Preparation for the..' Not all newtonians hve spiders, not all spiders are in line with the focus tube. Sorry, but I can't collimate without seeing through something, which might as well be a peephole cap.
Here's a precis of my articles, on the lines of a letter which Astronomy Now has just publsihed: MM in October's Tech Talk rightly refers to the sight tube's importance in collimating. But everyone imagines, and makes it, as a short tube when it has been easier to make the telescope tube itself the sight tube. The cross hairs needed can be inscribed on a fibreglass front cover or translucent inset disc for handier and easier accuracy of secondary mirror alignment than other methods up to about 180 x, beyond which all methods defer to the star test. This is achieved by almost the full focal length being utilised. It works in the same manner as a Cheshire eyepiece/sight tube combination, with the same easier secondary adjustments advantage over the laser collimator.


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peter clark
member


Reged: 09/25/07

Re: The South Cave Collimator System new [Re: peter clark]
      #4165274 - 11/05/10 11:39 AM

and so with your spider centred and squared to the focus tube, the benefits to you of the collimating front cover of the SCC system would seem to be quality of the light within the tube and dust kept out whilst you are bench collimating.

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peter clark
member


Reged: 09/25/07

Re: The South Cave Collimator System new [Re: peter clark]
      #4166250 - 11/05/10 07:21 PM

Yes, Johnny,
Your description of my style process could be spot on. I guess every collimator writer brings their past expressions in and alters some. There's just no formal telescope driving school that I know of. Best of skies, Peter.


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peter clark
member


Reged: 09/25/07

Re: The South Cave Collimator System new [Re: mloffland]
      #4169346 - 11/07/10 11:38 AM

Time will tell. It seems to have taken 65 years for the Cheshire Eyepiece to become available.

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peter clark
member


Reged: 09/25/07

Re: The South Cave Collimator System new [Re: peter clark]
      #4174859 - 11/09/10 05:58 PM

And I'm a quarter Welsh, so my drafts begin upside down and left to right. Proper English may then ensue and reduce the readability!

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