jasonharris
super member
Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
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Hi all, I thought I would start a thread now I am getting in to the project a little.
I have to say that it's tough work finding a lot of cassegrain information on the web. I know there are people making them but not a lot of documentation floating about, nor pretty pictures 
Anyway, a brief history about my project.. I came across Star instruments and found I could buy a 12.5" set of RC optics for much less then I imagined. I had only seen the commercial prices for the finished product - too much for me I am afraid.
This set of optics is the 12.5" astrograph, it's cheaper then their professional series and a bit of a gamble as I have yet to see pictures out of a completed set. I think his reputation and that he provides optics to RCOS was enough for me to go on.
Well I got an email saying they are on their way, only a week to go before I can look at them - a long way from using them though.
Time to get off my chair and start making bits! I had already decided that I would do a carbon truss design. As this is my first cass I am copying what I can see in other designs.
My only two problems that I will need to sort out is how big a spider and vanes do I need to support the 6" secondary - without over engineering it too much.
The other is I need to find out more information about supporting the primary. I have done a 16" dob with a 18 point cell. I know I cant use this type of support (the sling). I plan on doing a 9 point flotation system - I just need to figure out how you stop it rolling around without asserting too much pressure on the sides.
I have found it really tough finding good pictures of primary mirror supports for a cass.
Anyway, by the end of this I will have found it out and documented for others..
Please, if you are doing a project like this yourself jump in and tell me how its going, I wont consider it hijacking! 
Not a lot of progress to date but I will put some pictures on as things happen. I am going to build this out of aluminium which is quite costly, its a shame when you think most of it turns in to shavings... I don't want to get something wrong on a $100 piece of plate so I am mocking the frame up in wood first, once assembled I will machine the wooden bits in alloy.
I will do the floatation, connectors, spider etc all in alloy, no need to waste time mocking those up, the wooden frame is so I can get happy with the layout and design. Its only used about 2 hrs to do the wooden pieces so its worth it to me.
pictures so far...
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jasonharris
super member
Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
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Couldn't help it, had to put it on the mount to get an idea of the size 
Its a bit influenced by the rcos as well as this one Other guys cass
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jasonharris
super member
Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
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Hmm, this bugs me how I can never get some pictures to go in the correct orientation!
I found a local company in New Zealand that makes carbon tubes and got these done 1" od 32" long ~ $20 each
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jasonharris
super member
Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
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I have tried a few different connectors for the tubes. I made up some ball and socket joints like moonlight make for dobs. I use them on my 16" and they are great. I decided against it in the end because I didn' want plugs going in to the carbon tubes.
I felt safer following other designs that have truss adators which go voer the outside of the truss. Given that the carbon can be brittle I thought this would stress it less, being captive around the outside rather then a plug on the inside.
In fact this is what I am doing now, machining 16 of them.. I am sure at some point in your life you wish your lathe was CNC
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Josh
member
Reged: 09/01/05
Posts: 18
Loc: Hilo, HI
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Quote:
I have tried a few different connectors for the tubes. I made up some ball and socket joints like moonlight make for dobs. I use them on my 16" and they are great. I decided against it in the end because I didn' want plugs going in to the carbon tubes.
I felt safer following other designs that have truss adators which go voer the outside of the truss. Given that the carbon can be brittle I thought this would stress it less, being captive around the outside rather then a plug on the inside.
Hi Jason,
I've been considering several truss connection schemes without making any sort of decision. I'm curious as to why inserts are worse than an outside sleeve? If they engage the same length of CF tube, I'd think there wouldn't be much difference, but then I'm not an engineer. I guess the sleeve helps prevent splitting of the sides of the CF tube perhaps? What are the failure modes of CF tubes?
I envy your lathe, CNC or not. I may be able to get some machine shop time in at work if I play my cards right, but for now, I'm assuming that I have to do this all at home so simple fabrication of parts is one of my key design constraints. I still haven't decided on my material yet. Carbon fiber, aluminum tubing, and wood are all in the running still.
cheers, Josh
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jasonharris
super member
Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
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Hi Josh, yes I was more concerned with the sides splitting, not a concern I would have had with aluminium trusses.
Having said that, I don't know if it is valid or not. There were a couple of other factors. One was that the commercial guys I looked at had sleeves for thier carbon connectros. The other was that Sleeves are less time consuming to do
I found that the outside diameter of my trusses were 25mm. I bought a 25mm drill bit (1 inch) and it drills a suitably oversized hole for a nice fit. I might be too lazy to do the machining for 16 plugs that fit as nicely
I did do these before I gave up on the idea of balls.
Edited by jasonharris (12/26/07 07:42 PM)
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LateViewer
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 585
Loc: Westchester NY
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Good luck! I look forward to your progress.
Al
-------------------- 12.5" Discovery String Truss Dob
DSV-1 Alt-Az Mount
WO 66mm Petzval
Orion 127mm Mak with WO 2" Dielectric Diagonal
Celestron CG-5 GoTo
8.8, 14, 18, and 24mm Meade UWA Series 5000 EP
32, 40mm Orion Optiluxe EP
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mconnelley
super member
Reged: 03/14/06
Posts: 137
Loc: Fremont, CA
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Hello: I'm quite interested in your progress since I'm making a 12.5" cassegrain in a carbon fiber truss tube as well. In my case, it's a classical cassegrain (around f/15 or so), and the scope is currently in a solid aluminum tube that I made a few years ago. The plan for the new tube is to have three aluminum rings connected by two trusses of 6 poles each. Since I don't have the capability to make nice machined rings like you see on RCOS scopes, I'm bending 3/4" square aluminum tubing into the rings. Here's how you do it: just have someone get you really mad until you turn green and roughly double in size. At this point, bending the aluminum tube is very easy. If this doesn't work for you, follow the instuctions here: http://home.wanadoo.nl/jhm.vangastel/Astronomy/50cmscope/bending.htm
Regarding mounting the primary mirror, the mirror should be thick enough that a 3 point cell will work fine. My experience with PLOP shows that as the central obstruction gets larger, the radius of the mirror support points gets smaller. In the case of Josh's 10" RC set, the 3 points should be on the edge of the central hole. Silicone glueing your mirror with three blobs to a chunk of aluminum might work. You could also use a mirror cell like that used by Novak, Parks, or University Optics. Since the scope will be for astrophotography, warping the mirror a bit isn't too terrible. But you really want the collimation to be stable and your don't want the mirror flopping around. I found that my cassegrain is VERY sensitive to collimation, and a laser collimator won't help you a whole lot.
While you're thinking about the primary mirror cell, also think about the primary mirror baffle. Ideally, it shouldn't touch the primary mirror, and it should be able to be aligned independently of the primary mirror. Since you have a lathe, you may be able to machine things accurately enough that you don't need to build in a way to align the baffle. Typically, the primary mirror cell also supports the baffle, but this isn't necessary. In my case, the hole in the primary mirror is too small to allow the baffle to pass through. My solution was to suspend the baffle tube in the main tube using fine wires. Thus, the alignment of the baffle can be adjusted, although it's a royal pain to do it, and the baffle doesn't touch the mirror.
Soda can aluminum is an excellent source of baffle material. Just chop the ends off of a few cans and put them end to end. They even come with built in ring baffles inside.
Here's a web site you should see, if you haven't found it already: http://www.trivalleystargazers.org/gert/rc10_technik/rc_10.html
One interesting thing about a scope like this is that, although it's a truss, you never need to take it apart. This allows the truss connectors to be simpler and more robust. My plan was to cut a 1/8 wide slot into a wood dowel to accept a 1/8" x 3/4"x2" piece of aluminum strip. The wood dowel would then be glued into the carbon fiber poles like a plug, and the piece of aluminum that sticks out can be bolted to the end rings of the "tube". One reason I've come to this design is that I don't have a lathe to make nice sockets! I haven't seen carbon fiber tubes split from the use of a plug, but I have seen it delaminate when something is glued to one side and the glue bond is shocked.
Regarding the spider, Josh is right in that it's a large cantilevered mass, and using a spider where the vanes don't meet in the middle will reduce torsional vibration. The guys who have really big dobs have secondaries as heavy as yours, i.e. this is a previously solved problem. I imagine that a heavy duty spider will work just fine.
Cheers Mike Connelley Original owner of Josh's 10" mirror set
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jasonharris
super member
Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
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Mike, thanks for the big reply, there are some useful points for me.
I have seen the 10 RC link some time ago, there are always questions which pop up though. E.g. he is using the novak cell which is nine point. Paul at Star Instruments said 9 is better then 3 for the 12" but the link you provided seems to have the only support for the mirror moving sideway being the baffle.
In other places I have read that this will distort the mirror as well. Always two or more opinions 
I agree that it will never be pulled apart, the ball/sockets were for alignment convenience, turns out its not needed how I am doing it - as rcos do it - just have the secondary ring the same size as the mirror box.
I know I'm not the first to do a 6" secondary I figure the large dob guys go with heavyweight vanes and it probably makes no difference on a 40". I just want warm fuzzies that if I go for thick vanes it won't hurt the performance on my small 12" 
Anyway, busy on the lathe and the mill today. Got 16 of these out faster then I thought although some of the carbon tubes had an ever so slightly larger OD so I had to bore and extra 1 - 3 thousands out of the last 6 to get the fit right.
Jason
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JohnG
sage
Reged: 12/16/06
Posts: 356
Loc: Wake Village, Texas - East Tex...
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Jason,
You're right, there's not a lot of Cass info on the web. But, there is some that I've found helpful. Also, I have found Ken Novak's "Cassegrain Notes" to be enlightening. I bought his booklet a long time ago, along with Newtonian Notes.
It looks like you are making good progress with your design for an RC telescope. At least, you have determined that you want a truss design similar to RCOS and you have the tools to make what you need.
My plan as it stands today is different because I'm not able to make my own parts. I'm thinking about putting the optics in a Parks fiberglass tube and using a custom made cell from here:
http://mysite.verizon.net/res6jv9o/astronomy-trains/id10.html
I should have purchased the Cass primary and secondary mounts from Ken Novak while he was still in business. I deeply regret that I didn’t. With those parts it would have been an assembly job instead of a real construction project, I think.
As to the spider and secondary mount, well, that’s another question for me. I know you can do it with your machine tools. I could buy one but the only place I’ve seen Cass holders and spiders are rather expensive to me. I think they can be purchased from Van Slyke and Protostar. If worse comes to worse I may have to go this route.
Baffles will be a problem for me, though. I found some good information here: http://www.atmsite.org/contrib/Sapp/Baffle/ that gives me pause about how baffles ought to be made, and as well, I have seen the web site for the 10 inch RC already referred to. Both have some good ideas.
I think my version of an RC won’t be in same league as yours, but I hope it works out as a sort of “poor man’s” Ritchey-Chretien. More so than getting the telescope built is what I’ll use for a mount. Since I’m retired I’ll have to take the most economical route I can find if I ever hope to be viewing the heavens with an RC telescope. Since I won’t be able to provide a permanent housing for the scope mine will have to be portable, so I’m hoping I can put the tube on, say, a Losmandy G-11. If that turns out to be out of reach I’ll think about making my own pillow block mount. That would be less portable, but I think I might be able to leave a mount like that on a pier in my back yard.
Anyway, since I have it in mind to put a 12.5 inch RC together, too, I'm very interested in what you're doing. Please keep us up to date on your progress.
JohnG
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jasonharris
super member
Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
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Hi John, good luck with your project as well. I was also going to put this on a g11, this was before I got the paramount. The paramount has changed how I will build the scope as I won't be modeling every component and trying to save weight.
A friend ATM has built a tube or two from carbon fobre. He even suggested that I just take my mock up and cover it in carbon fibre. It would probably be strong and stiff enough but maybe too easy I like a bit of building as well 
I also looked at Van Slyke as I wasn't sure how much time I would have for the project and the spider was the part I had questions about. In the end because of price it is worth my while machining this component as well. I looked at protostar but I didn't think that they could accommodate a 6" secondary.
I went out this morning and there was a box outside. It could only be one thing!
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jasonharris
super member
Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
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I started and finished the connectors that attach to the ring today. They took a bit longer then I expected.
Part of it was some stock I had needed to come down to size a bit more then I would have liked, a lot of waste..
I need a quick change for the mill sometime, it would make the drilling then tapping a lot faster. It seems to take a lot of time putting in the right collet for the drill then take it out and put the right one on for the tap then back and forwards..
Anyway, pretty happy with them. I had to put it together with my wooden mock up pieces.. it looks a bit distorted because of the camera angle. The upper ring ID is about 1/2" bigger then the ID of the circle in the lower section.
Tomorrow I will start the 8 connectors fo rthe bottom half.. Also it wont be as long, the trusses will have a good bit chopped off to get it to the proper length.
Jason
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Marco Paolilli
member
Reged: 10/31/05
Posts: 13
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Jason,
looks like it will be a very nice instrument !
You might find interesting taking a look at this : http://www.tamanti.it/astronomy%20RC300.htm
Regards,
Marco
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jasonharris
super member
Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
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Hello Marco, I have seen that site, its one of the few that is readily found when searching for making your own RC's.
I spent a bit more time on the workshop finishing off bits. I attached the front end properly and put it on the mount for another quick look - I can't help myself 
The trusses are not cut to length so it will be shorter then this by about 1/5th
I have run out of stock so nothing much will happen until ~ 7th when the metal suppliers open up again.
Thanks, Jason
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JohnG
sage
Reged: 12/16/06
Posts: 356
Loc: Wake Village, Texas - East Tex...
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Jason,
Your RC is coming along, then! So far, the only home-built RC's I've seen are those referred to on this thread. They are all very nice, very professional.
I really admire your pier, telescope-to-be, and the observatory it's going in. I'll be following this thread closely...for the joy of seeing it come to life and for ideas I can use.
JohnG
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jasonharris
super member
Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
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Hi all, just an update. Things haven't progressed very far since last post. We had a baby 6 weeks early on the 7th of this month. It was a bit of a surprise to say the least!
I set up to do the spider on the weekend before, picture below, and it is still sitting there untouched
Everyone is fine and the baby should come home from hospital tomorrow. Perhaps this weekend I will get back to it. I was really trying to get the scope finished before its due date of mid feb but it looks like it will take a bit longer now...
For the observant, I dont plan to mill with a drill bit, I can't even remember why that was in there now 
Jason
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Carl M
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 02/21/07
Posts: 658
Loc: Vermont, USA
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Quote:
Hi all, just an update. Things haven't progressed very far since last post. We had a baby 6 weeks early on the 7th of this month. It was a bit of a surprise to say the least!
Congratulations!
-------------------- Carl
JStar 13" Truss Dob w/Swayze Mirror
StellarVue SV50 "Little Rascal"
SV102ED
SV80(NHNG )
GM-8
WO SWANs and TV Plossls
Lake Runnemede Observatory
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JanM
professor emeritus
Reged: 03/07/05
Posts: 602
Loc: Sheffield UK
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Congrats jason, lots of sleepless nights ahead i fear. 
What make is the lathe you are using in your last pic ?
I have always wanted to make my own 10" RC truss design but limited information on the web has thus far prevented me from doing so.
Looking forward to seeing your project progress.
Jan
--------------------
- AP 130 EDF
- Trifid-2 SA-6303E-C2, SXV-M7
- AP 900 GTO3
- Observatory Progress - Just the roof left
Website - http://www.pbase.com/janmclare/
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GuyFleming
member
Reged: 01/21/08
Posts: 23
Loc: Newcastle, Australia
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Hi Jason I came across your thread on building an RC with 12"f6.6 Star Instruments 'budget' optics. I am in a similar situation waiting on 2 sets of 12" optics to be coated and delivered. I am building 2 OTAs for myself and a friend with a mixture of off-the-shelf parts and home built parts. They will have a carbon truss OTA with VSI spider and Robofocus 'hubcam'(which I now have). This massive secondary focuser assembly sits in a CNC milled 5/8" thick 16" dia Al-ring. I will use A-P 2.7" threaded fittings at the rear. All this will ride on my Paramount ME which sits in my observatory. I am interested in where you sourced the carbon tube. A sole local supplier here is very expensive. Cheers, Guy
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jasonharris
super member
Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
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Hi Jan, the last pic is a dividing head sitting on the table of the mill. I will use it to index for some milling and slitting for the vanes an 90% apart.
Further up (this may be what you were referring to) I am using the lathe to do the truss connectors. Its a Global 1640 which is a 7.5hp 3phase 16" geared head. Its going to get a bit more use during this project
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jasonharris
super member
Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
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Hello Guy, good luck with your project!
I sourced my tubes from www.carbon-tube.com I couldn't believe that they were a 30 minute drive from me in Auckland. They make them to order and I paid ~30 NZD for each 800mm length. The Aussie dollar is similar to ours but it will be a little cheaper for you. I paid a little more for the nicer finish.
Thanks, Jason
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JanM
professor emeritus
Reged: 03/07/05
Posts: 602
Loc: Sheffield UK
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Thanks for the infomation jason, that lathe looked pretty powerful. All i have is a mini desktop so when i go ahead with my project i'll have to get a lot of the parts made by a freind who has a larger machine.
Again looknig forward to seeing your project progress. It all looks to be going well so far.
Jan
Jan
--------------------
- AP 130 EDF
- Trifid-2 SA-6303E-C2, SXV-M7
- AP 900 GTO3
- Observatory Progress - Just the roof left
Website - http://www.pbase.com/janmclare/
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jasonharris
super member
Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
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Hi Jan, I understand. I had lathe lust as well as telescope lust.
My 16" lathe was an upgrade from an emco compact 5 so I also know about the table top ones. Lucky for me I can now do the bigger components.
Thanks, Jason
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GuyFleming
member
Reged: 01/21/08
Posts: 23
Loc: Newcastle, Australia
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G'day Jason - thanks for the CF info. A supplier in Sydney wanted over double that for similar tube. I am also about to buy a small hobby mill (probably a Sieg X3). For a long time I survived on access to a friends mill and lathes in Sydney. Now I live in Newcastle. FYI - I used the ATM site links to source cheap Al-discs from S&S Machine (USA) - they have a variety of Mic6 Al-cast plate disc offcuts for sale. I used their 5/8" discs for milling of the secondary 16" rings. I am using other disc stock for the primary cell assembly. My current design uses a reinforced marine ply box at the rear end to carry the Al primary cell/rear plate assembly and the truss assembly. I think I will be milling similar truss tube connectors to yours. I note that RCOS appear to use honeycomb-CNC milled Aluminium for the rear mirror assembly behind their truss assemblies - do you know if RCOS does use aluminum for these parts, out of interest?? thanks, Guy
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jasonharris
super member
Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
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Hello Guy, I hope the carbon tubes work out for you.
I believe that the part of the RCOS you are talking about is aluminium. I have seen close ups and it looks from pictures to be anodised machined aluminium.
I think they state that its all carbon/aluminium/stainless with an educated guess that this piece is not stainless.
Thanks, Jason
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GuyFleming
member
Reged: 01/21/08
Posts: 23
Loc: Newcastle, Australia
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Aluminium... good. Also just wondering if you are going to have the primary baffle 'mated' to the cell or to the rear plate? My friend tells me Star Instruments have completed the optics and have sent it for coating. Have you used your PME yet? I am running an old 12" Meade SCT on it for now until the RC is finished. A joy to use the pme. cheers, guy
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ezpcb
Vendor (Nova Instrument)
Reged: 06/07/06
Posts: 294
Loc: China
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Nice job!I'm going to make my 10" RC. The constructure is almost similar to yours
Mike
-------------------- Maxvision 10" Newtonian with DIY DOB
Megrez 102 Semi-APO
EOS 5D, EF180L Macro
NVI-1300 Planetary CMOS Camera
Takahashi NJP Equational Mount
10" Star Instruments RC is on the way
Nexstar C6SE
Selling some astronomy gears at www.novainstrument.com, just for fun.
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PrestonE
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 04/29/05
Posts: 634
Loc: Houston,Texas
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Hi Jason,
I'd seen this thread around Christmas and then I became quite busy.
And yes, the RC optics back plate and center plate are CNC mill lightened aluminum.
We are building a 20" RC with Star's Standard taper backed Zurdur blank. All of the tube ends and mounting bits and pieces are finished. The balls are Invar and the inserts into the Carbon tubes are 6061 aluminum.
When you cut your carbon tubes, be careful to coat the exposed carbon fiber with a thin layer of epoxy...as carbon fiber/aluminum and moisture makes a great battery...and you loose aluminum!!! When cutting the carbon tube us a non toothed blade.
Our secondary structure will be all carbon made via VARTM or vacuum assisted resin transfer molding. That's where all of the conponents are layed up dry, the vacuum bag placed over everything, tested, fixed if leaking, and then vacuum pulled and resin infeed lines opened...much less nerve racking than wet layups, and considerablly lighter.
One thing to ask Paul at Star Instruments, as this is a differant optical design spec in the tolerance for mirror spacing...RC's have VERY Tight spacing and alingment specs and should not be focussed with the secondary...IMHO
I know it's done, but it's not the correct way to go...just ask Mike Jones. Why build a premimum scope only to mess up the quality by not adhearing to the tolerances...
I'll not hijack you thread by posting any pictures, but later on will start another for our build.
Our secondary is 7 inches in diameter and I plan on mounting it to a carbon triangle structure that is then mounted to a carbon fiber tube 4 inches diameter by 9 inches long. The mirror will then mount to the carbon triangle with silicone blobes. Then Carbon/Arimid spider vains will attach off axis of the 4 inch tube.. It's important to counter balance the secondary to lessen any vibrations.
Anyway, enough for now...Nice job so far.
Best Regards,
Preston
ps...The devils in the details...9 months of making CAD drawings and hundreds of revisions...
-------------------- A few I enjoy,
and a few more in the works ;<)
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jasonharris
super member
Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
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Hello Guy, I am using my paramount at the moment. I have two WO scopes on it. A 110flt for imaging and a 90mm for a guidescope.
I sold my only cass, a 9.25 celestron. I wish I hadn't as the focal length would be really nice until the RC is finished. Catch 22 though as it helped pay for the RC optics 
The only problem I am having is with autoguiding, it seems to be hit and miss if it works or not, I am not sure where the problem is but I will play around with it.
Not sure if I will mount the baffle to the cell or to the rear plate. I understand that it should at least be independently adjustable from the optical axis.
Heres quick pic of the WO's on the paramount. Theres enough mount for them
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jasonharris
super member
Reged: 09/16/06
Posts: 137
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Hi Preston, thanks for your advice. I know that I would and I am sure others would like to see something about your project.
Yes, the carbon will react with the aluminium. I will probably anodise the connectors. I have 5 gallons of 99% sulphuric sitting in a corner and have been meaning to use a little bit of it!
I am going to do my focus at the back not with the secondary. As I am not manufacturing I don't have to worry about making it easy for many customers. I will set up the secondary with the correct spacing and use a focuser at the back with an extension if required.
Thanks, Jason
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