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GShaffer
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 02/28/09

Loc: Bogart, Ga USA
8" f/15 refractor project
      #3615311 - 02/09/10 05:38 PM

Gathering up materials and parts still....have the lens/cell already. Focuser, 9" rings and 9" tube in route.

Have been considering the dovetail for the rings. Checked and having a custom 1 1/8"x4"x36" made would run me $200.00+shipping

However I can buy a 4 foot piece of 1x4" 6061-T6 bar stock for less than $70.00. I have a 23" standard D type dovetail already. What I am thinking is why not bolt the 23" dovetail I have in the middle of a 48" 1x4" which would still give me room to slide back and forth enough for minor balancing purposes and my saddle is a tip in type so I really dont need the dovetail to run the entire length.

Anyone see any reason this wouldnt work for me? My saddle is 18" long....any major balancing adjustments can always be done by moving the OTA in the rings.

If my thinking is right. I save about $130 bucks and end up with my rings 4 foot apart as opposed to 36" on a 11 or so foot OTA.....should be a fairly substantial system.

Thoughts?


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Jim Curry
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 10/29/07

Loc: STL
Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: GShaffer]
      #3615442 - 02/09/10 06:38 PM

Sounds pretty substantial. What lens are you using?

Jim


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GShaffer
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 02/28/09

Loc: Bogart, Ga USA
Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Jim Curry]
      #3615596 - 02/09/10 07:58 PM Attachment (157 downloads)

Muffoletto Optical..... It was listed briefly on Astromart a while back. Per an evaluation by D&G they said...

"the objective you sent in was good to 1/10 wave accuracy, with a perfect edge zone. Clear aperture is 7.75", BFL 123 3/8"."

Sounds good anyway

BTW Jim, how do you like that NA140? I have one and it is one of my favorites.


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Jim Curry
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: GShaffer]
      #3616374 - 02/10/10 08:53 AM

Herb:
It's one of my favorites, too. (seeing as it's my only :>))

It's my first refractor after a lifetime of Newts. Perfect for wide fields and performs as well as the seeing allows when I want to push the mag.

Jim


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Mike I. Jones
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Reged: 07/02/06

Loc: Fort Worth TX
Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: GShaffer]
      #3616503 - 02/10/10 10:23 AM

I'm not surprised. Muffoletto was a SUPERB optical shop. They made the 24" aperture, 200" EFL collimator primary and 25" aperture BK7 beamsplitter for our camera test station. I tested it once in double pass and the DP wavefront error was on the order of 1/8 wave P-V at HeNe. That was after reflecting off the beamsplitter and primary, transmitting through the beamsplitter to the 24" return flat (1/18 wave RMS, figured by Zygo), back through the beamsplitter, off the primary, reflect off the beamsplitter again and back to focus. Absolutely marvelous optical workmanship.

You have a great objective there with a world-class pedigree.
Mike


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Ziggy943
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Reged: 08/11/06

Loc: Utah
Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Mike I. Jones]
      #3616602 - 02/10/10 11:23 AM

I would consider fixing the tube in the rings, not make it slideable to achieve balance. I put external sliding weights on the 9" tube assembly. They go off and on with one brass screw. You can get a nicely proportioned OTA that way.

You may want to blacken the cell.

Jim mentioned "perfect for wide field." At a 123" FL I don't know about that wide field stuff.

Great project and sounds like from Mike you should have a great lens.


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Mike I. Jones
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Ziggy943]
      #3616700 - 02/10/10 12:21 PM

Thought you might be interested in this further bit of history.

The demise of Muffoletto Optical was a major blow to the optical manufacturing industry. According to public records of Muffoletto vs. Melick, October 9, 1987, when C. Verne Muffoletto died on April 29, 1986, he owned 81% of the stock of Muffoletto Optical Co., Inc., having previously given 19% to certain key employees. His will offered "...first right of refusal to purchase the remaining stock of THE MUFFOLETTO OPTICAL COMPANY, INC. to any number or all of the employees of said company. The purchase price shall be the fair market value of the company at the date of my death. If less than all of the shares of said company are purchased under this option and the remaining unpurchased shares constitute a minority interest this option shall lapse and be null and void. The said employees of the company shall have six (6) months from the date of my death to exercise this option to purchase."

The whole thing got very messy, wrapped inextricably around the axle in litigation, and resulted in one of the finest optical shops in history disappearing forever. I don't know where all the optical technicians and equipment dispersed to, but it was a tragedy to lose that company and its capabilities. You should take great pride in owning a Muffoletto objective lens.
Mike


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Jim Curry
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Reged: 10/29/07

Loc: STL
Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Ziggy943]
      #3616740 - 02/10/10 12:43 PM

Oops, we were talking about his last question, how did I like the Vixen 140.

Jim


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suburbanskies
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Reged: 12/18/04

Loc: New Jersey, USA
Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Mike I. Jones]
      #3616773 - 02/10/10 01:01 PM

It's interesting how this optical shop (and most organizations) revolve around a key person or persons. Once they're gone, the whole shebang just falls apart...

Mark


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GShaffer
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 02/28/09

Loc: Bogart, Ga USA
Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Mike I. Jones]
      #3617094 - 02/10/10 03:53 PM

Shhhhh.....I really dont need to get any more excited about it It does sound like I may have a real winner though.

Quote:

I'm not surprised. Muffoletto was a SUPERB optical shop. They made the 24" aperture, 200" EFL collimator primary and 25" aperture BK7 beamsplitter for our camera test station. I tested it once in double pass and the DP wavefront error was on the order of 1/8 wave P-V at HeNe. That was after reflecting off the beamsplitter and primary, transmitting through the beamsplitter to the 24" return flat (1/18 wave RMS, figured by Zygo), back through the beamsplitter, off the primary, reflect off the beamsplitter again and back to focus. Absolutely marvelous optical workmanship.

You have a great objective there with a world-class pedigree.
Mike




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GShaffer
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 02/28/09

Loc: Bogart, Ga USA
Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Jim Curry]
      #3617099 - 02/10/10 03:56 PM

Upon reflection out of what I have scope wise if I had to sell down to one....it would be a hard decision between the FL102 and the NA140....Solely basing it on what I enjoy the most visually I suspect it would be the NA140 that got kept.

Quote:

Herb:
It's one of my favorites, too. (seeing as it's my only :>))

It's my first refractor after a lifetime of Newts. Perfect for wide fields and performs as well as the seeing allows when I want to push the mag.

Jim




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GShaffer
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 02/28/09

Loc: Bogart, Ga USA
Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Ziggy943]
      #3617111 - 02/10/10 04:02 PM

Jim was refering to the NA140 we were discussing regarding widefield viewing....

I have considered it.....and will likely use something like that for EP/Binoviewer balancing.....but will also be mounting a 2nd OTA at times so will need some major movement for that and prefer moving in the rings over adding that much weight on and off......

Quote:

I would consider fixing the tube in the rings, not make it slideable to achieve balance. I put external sliding weights on the 9" tube assembly. They go off and on with one brass screw. You can get a nicely proportioned OTA that way.

You may want to blacken the cell.

Jim mentioned "perfect for wide field." At a 123" FL I don't know about that wide field stuff.

Great project and sounds like from Mike you should have a great lens.




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GShaffer
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 02/28/09

Loc: Bogart, Ga USA
Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Mike I. Jones]
      #3617115 - 02/10/10 04:04 PM

I read up on some of that in my web searching for info.....it is a shame. From everything I have read and heard they definately turned out some quality stuff in their day. I sure hope it (this one) lives up to the reputation.

Quote:

Thought you might be interested in this further bit of history.

The demise of Muffoletto Optical was a major blow to the optical manufacturing industry. According to public records of Muffoletto vs. Melick, October 9, 1987, when C. Verne Muffoletto died on April 29, 1986, he owned 81% of the stock of Muffoletto Optical Co., Inc., having previously given 19% to certain key employees. His will offered "...first right of refusal to purchase the remaining stock of THE MUFFOLETTO OPTICAL COMPANY, INC. to any number or all of the employees of said company. The purchase price shall be the fair market value of the company at the date of my death. If less than all of the shares of said company are purchased under this option and the remaining unpurchased shares constitute a minority interest this option shall lapse and be null and void. The said employees of the company shall have six (6) months from the date of my death to exercise this option to purchase."

The whole thing got very messy, wrapped inextricably around the axle in litigation, and resulted in one of the finest optical shops in history disappearing forever. I don't know where all the optical technicians and equipment dispersed to, but it was a tragedy to lose that company and its capabilities. You should take great pride in owning a Muffoletto objective lens.
Mike




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rwiederrich
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Reged: 11/17/05

Loc: Always Dark skies of Belfair W...
Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: GShaffer]
      #3617270 - 02/10/10 05:37 PM

Sounds like it's going to be an awesome scope. Long focus is my favorite.

Keep us posted....Let me know if I can help in any way.

Rob


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GShaffer
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Reged: 02/28/09

Loc: Bogart, Ga USA
Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Mike I. Jones]
      #3617362 - 02/10/10 06:27 PM

Quote:


You have a great objective there with a world-class pedigree.
Mike




It seems you have quite the pedigree yourself Mike. I made the mistake of looking at your profile....your occupation and depth of astro hobby along with your posts lend quite a bit of weight to your comments regarding Muffoletto Optical and the possibilities of this lens......I thank you for your input! Sadly you also got me more excited than I already was, doubly so now that I reviewed your history


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GShaffer
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Reged: 02/28/09

Loc: Bogart, Ga USA
Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: rwiederrich]
      #3617380 - 02/10/10 06:46 PM

Ahhh the builder of the Nautilus .....The green OTA.....Made me think of the Nautilus when I 1st saw the pics a while back for some reason. Very nice setup. I watched the video on your site. Intresting mount too.

Thanks....I am sure there will be questions aplenty before this thing is done

Quote:

Sounds like it's going to be an awesome scope. Long focus is my favorite.

Keep us posted....Let me know if I can help in any way.

Rob




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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
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Reged: 11/17/05

Loc: Always Dark skies of Belfair W...
Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: GShaffer]
      #3617740 - 02/10/10 10:26 PM

Quote:

Ahhh the builder of the Nautilus .....The green OTA.....Made me think of the Nautilus when I 1st saw the pics a while back for some reason. Very nice setup. I watched the video on your site. Intresting mount too.

Thanks....I am sure there will be questions aplenty before this thing is done

Quote:

Sounds like it's going to be an awesome scope. Long focus is my favorite.

Keep us posted....Let me know if I can help in any way.

Rob







Thanks.....getting the mount retrofitted for my newly finished 10"f/15 will be fun as well.

Again....great project..and don't forget to post lots of pics....

Rob


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GShaffer
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Loc: Bogart, Ga USA
Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: rwiederrich]
      #3618246 - 02/11/10 08:54 AM

Considing the baffle system for this project.

Given this is my 1st time at this I am looking for advice on this. A few questions based on what I have read up on so far regarding baffling.

To baffle or not to baffle? I believe this one is simply YES

How many baffles?....more is better within reason? At least 4 in a OTA of this type? Would 6 be better? or ?

I assume from looking at my other OTA's and from what I have read the apature of the baffles needs to follow the size of the tapering light cone from front to rear?

Should they be evenly spaced along the tube or is there a specfic pattern that works best?

Thanks
Greg


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Mike I. Jones
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Reged: 07/02/06

Loc: Fort Worth TX
Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: GShaffer]
      #3618349 - 02/11/10 09:56 AM Attachment (96 downloads)

This is a diagram I created years ago that gives the formula for the baffle diameter at any point down the tube. You need to know the back aperture DL (slightly less than the 7.75" front aperture) and back focal length BFL (123.375"), and decide on an unvignetted field width "d" (0.75" to 1" is probably about right). The formula gives the baffle ID "DB" at any point down the tube.

4-5 equally spaced baffles are probably adequate. For your 8" f/15 the first baffle would start about 5-6" back from the objective, and the last baffle would be about 12" forward of your focuser base.

Mike


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Mike I. Jones
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Reged: 07/02/06

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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Mike I. Jones]
      #3618377 - 02/11/10 10:16 AM Attachment (106 downloads)

This is an easy way to optically inspect how well your baffle design is working. It gives a direct, real image of your telescope exit pupil. Aim your refractor at the daylight sky, hold the second eyepiece over the first as shown, and you should only see the refractor back aperture exit pupil, floating in pure blackness. Any stray light coming down the tube will easily be visible outside the exit pupil. You can turn the refractor to within about 10-20 degrees of the sun for the most stringent testing, but be careful!
Mike


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GShaffer
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Mike I. Jones]
      #3618388 - 02/11/10 10:23 AM

Thats great info Mike.....Thanks!

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rwiederrich
Goldfinger
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Reged: 11/17/05

Loc: Always Dark skies of Belfair W...
Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Mike I. Jones]
      #3619076 - 02/11/10 04:00 PM

Quote:

This is a diagram I created years ago that gives the formula for the baffle diameter at any point down the tube. You need to know the back aperture DL (slightly less than the 7.75" front aperture) and back focal length BFL (123.375"), and decide on an unvignetted field width "d" (0.75" to 1" is probably about right). The formula gives the baffle ID "DB" at any point down the tube.

4-5 equally spaced baffles are probably adequate. For your 8" f/15 the first baffle would start about 5-6" back from the objective, and the last baffle would be about 12" forward of your focuser base.

Mike




Mike...you posted this formula and diagram on my website AFTER I designed and built my baffle system for my 10"f/15.

I used 1" field width when I designed my system on the floor of my shop......

I also used 5 baffles along with the baffles within my focuser body. No baffles within the draw tube(over kill I think).

PLus...my thinking is that because the tube is 2" larger then the objective(1 full inch completely around)...I would be able to control stray light better...along with the thermal venting built into each baffle.

Your drawings are extremely helpful.....

Rob


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GShaffer
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: rwiederrich]
      #3621324 - 02/12/10 05:34 PM

1st set of parallax rings arrived yesterday....AP single speed new style focuser arrived today. Bar stock for the 42" dovetail is in route.

Still searching for some 9 to 9.5" parallax rotating rings.....just missed a set too dang it.....


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Mirzam
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: GShaffer]
      #3621379 - 02/12/10 05:58 PM

Why do you want rotating rings? Are these for a large finder or guide scope?

Jim


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rwiederrich
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: GShaffer]
      #3621383 - 02/12/10 05:59 PM

Quote:

1st set of parallax rings arrived yesterday....AP single speed new style focuser arrived today. Bar stock for the 42" dovetail is in route.

Still searching for some 9 to 9.5" parallax rotating rings.....just missed a set too dang it.....





Oooo the toys are comin in....

You know...the rain and cloud gods just don't get it when folks like to build their own scopes...so I predict a super first light....

Rob


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Studio11
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Reged: 10/20/07

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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: GShaffer]
      #3621724 - 02/12/10 09:31 PM

Quote:

Should they be evenly spaced along the tube or is there a specfic pattern that works best?




Greg,
If you want to efficiently baffle a refractor without installing additional and unecessary baffles, the baffles will not be evenly spaced. I have built several refractors including 8", 10" and 11" and have used the following method:
http://www.berfield.com/baffles.html
Of course it doesn't hurt to add more baffles if you want to, but it won't increase the control of stray light.

Regards, Stan


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GShaffer
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Mirzam]
      #3621774 - 02/12/10 10:06 PM

Besides the 80mm finder there will be one to two other scopes mounted on it 4" to 6" at times and being able to rotate the whole assembly while not absolutely required will be convienent.

Quote:

Why do you want rotating rings? Are these for a large finder or guide scope?

Jim




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GShaffer
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Reged: 02/28/09

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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Studio11]
      #3621791 - 02/12/10 10:14 PM

Wow....thats the simplest and most logical method I have run up on yet.....Thanks!

Quote:

Quote:

Should they be evenly spaced along the tube or is there a specfic pattern that works best?




Greg,
If you want to efficiently baffle a refractor without installing additional and unecessary baffles, the baffles will not be evenly spaced. I have built several refractors including 8", 10" and 11" and have used the following method:
http://www.berfield.com/baffles.html
Of course it doesn't hurt to add more baffles if you want to, but it won't increase the control of stray light.

Regards, Stan




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GShaffer
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: GShaffer]
      #3622478 - 02/13/10 11:11 AM Attachment (60 downloads)

Located a new AP focuser via Amart for $300. Every penny counts 1st one of these I have had the pleasure of laying hands on....Now I understand. Beefy is a good word for it.

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GShaffer
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 02/28/09

Loc: Bogart, Ga USA
Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: GShaffer]
      #3652286 - 02/28/10 08:44 AM

Still plugging along on this.... Looking for a source for the sliding counterweights that I see most long focus refractor setups use for EP vs Binoviewer balancing.

Anyone care to point me somewhere?

Thanks
Greg


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Mirzam
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: GShaffer]
      #3652801 - 02/28/10 02:34 PM

Try Parallax Instruments.

JimC


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GShaffer
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Loc: Bogart, Ga USA
Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Mirzam]
      #3652899 - 02/28/10 03:28 PM

That should be easy since Joe is already making a couple things for me on this scope. However I just reviewed the website and didnt see any reference to them.....Will ask Joe about them....

Quote:

Try Parallax Instruments.

JimC




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Mirzam
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: GShaffer]
      #3653027 - 02/28/10 04:52 PM

He uses a sliding counterweight system on his Cassegrain OTAs that is functionally similar to what you want. It may not have quite the right look for a refractor though.

http://www.parallaxinstruments.com/cass.htm

JimC


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GShaffer
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Mirzam]
      #3653405 - 02/28/10 08:38 PM

I see what you mean.....those look like they slide on a rail that is mounted to the ota.....I was going to mount a rod on some rings so I suppose I could mount a rail just as well if I cant find the ones I am looking for.....

Thanks!


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GShaffer
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: GShaffer]
      #3667423 - 03/08/10 11:33 AM

Contacted Joe @ parallax and my sliding counter balance weights search is over.

Been reading up on the paperwork that came with the lens.....

Norman Remer design scaled to 8" using Schott glass, BK7 and F-2. Figured by Muffoletto Optical sometime prior to Verne Muffoletto's death in 1986.

Included were

Axial Ray Trace in 3 colors
Axial plots with 3 colors
Spot Diagrams in 3 colors (4 angles 0.0, 0.1, 0.2, 0.3 degree)
The program data for both axial plots
Data showing ray height on each surface.

Lots of data to study if I knew what I was looking at lol


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rwiederrich
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: GShaffer]
      #3667474 - 03/08/10 12:03 PM

Quote:

Contacted Joe @ parallax and my sliding counter balance weights search is over.

Been reading up on the paperwork that came with the lens.....

Norman Remer design scaled to 8" using Schott glass, BK7 and F-2. Figured by Muffoletto Optical sometime prior to Verne Muffoletto's death in 1986.

Included were

Axial Ray Trace in 3 colors
Axial plots with 3 colors
Spot Diagrams in 3 colors (4 angles 0.0, 0.1, 0.2, 0.3 degree)
The program for both axial plots
Data showing ray height on each surface.

Lots of data to study if I knew what I was looking at lol




It's good to know the data on your objective.

What *kind* of sliding counter balance are you getting from Parallax? (Any pix?). I built both of mine using lead weights cut to fit against the tube. I have yet to mount the forward one in hopes the weight of the objective and its adapter tube cell will be adequate.

I'll add it if need be.

Rob


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GShaffer
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: rwiederrich]
      #3667503 - 03/08/10 12:22 PM

Was looking at the ones Jeff Blazey has on his 11" in the pics at your yahoo site and contacted him. He pointed me to Joe and the rest is history. Pics are:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HomemadeRefractorTelescopes/photos/album/1594999745/pic/list

He used copper water pipe and I am using stainless rod for the slide but the weights will be the same.

My 1"x4"x42" bar stock for the dovetail arrived and it surprised me how heavy it is.....Realized am I now pretty sure I wont be manhandling this thing into the saddle all in one piece

More likely installing the dovetail with the rings open and then sitting the OTA in it as I have seen others doing with these long scopes.....


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rwiederrich
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: GShaffer]
      #3667590 - 03/08/10 12:59 PM

Quote:

Was looking at the ones Jeff Blazey has on his 11" in the pics at your yahoo site and contacted him. He pointed me to Joe and the rest is history. Pics are:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HomemadeRefractorTelescopes/photos/album/1594999745/pic/list

He used copper water pipe and I am using stainless rod for the slide but the weights will be the same.

My 1"x4"x42" bar stock for the dovetail arrived and it surprised me how heavy it is.....Realized am I now pretty sure I wont be manhandling this thing into the saddle all in one piece

More likely installing the dovetail with the rings open and then sitting the OTA in it as I have seen others doing with these long scopes.....




Oh..I see..you used the tube ring design..like Jeff's.

Yes and then you attach the extension for the slide bar.

Stainless bar will be quite heavy compared to either copper pipe..or like what I used steal pipe.

I made my counterweights to be extremely low profile to be in line with the over all design of my scope.

Does Parallax make the weights along with the rings..or are they a seporate item you need to buy from someone else?


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GShaffer
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: rwiederrich]
      #3668041 - 03/08/10 04:46 PM


As far as I know Joe makes the weights.....I was planning to use the copper pipe method too but Joe said he had some smaller diameter stainless rod that wouldnt weigh too much....I do want them to stand off a bit from the scope to help offset the rotational torque induced by having a couple more scopes mounted on the main OTA since it will be in rotating rings.

Quote:

Quote:

Was looking at the ones Jeff Blazey has on his 11" in the pics at your yahoo site and contacted him. He pointed me to Joe and the rest is history. Pics are:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HomemadeRefractorTelescopes/photos/album/1594999745/pic/list

He used copper water pipe and I am using stainless rod for the slide but the weights will be the same.

My 1"x4"x42" bar stock for the dovetail arrived and it surprised me how heavy it is.....Realized am I now pretty sure I wont be manhandling this thing into the saddle all in one piece

More likely installing the dovetail with the rings open and then sitting the OTA in it as I have seen others doing with these long scopes.....




Oh..I see..you used the tube ring design..like Jeff's.

Yes and then you attach the extension for the slide bar.

Stainless bar will be quite heavy compared to either copper pipe..or like what I used steal pipe.

I made my counterweights to be extremely low profile to be in line with the over all design of my scope.

Does Parallax make the weights along with the rings..or are they a seporate item you need to buy from someone else?




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rwiederrich
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: GShaffer]
      #3668093 - 03/08/10 05:08 PM

Quote:


As far as I know Joe makes the weights.....I was planning to use the copper pipe method too but Joe said he had some smaller diameter stainless rod that wouldnt weigh too much....I do want them to stand off a bit from the scope to help offset the rotational torque induced by having a couple more scopes mounted on the main OTA since it will be in rotating rings.

Quote:

Quote:

Was looking at the ones Jeff Blazey has on his 11" in the pics at your yahoo site and contacted him. He pointed me to Joe and the rest is history. Pics are:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HomemadeRefractorTelescopes/photos/album/1594999745/pic/list

He used copper water pipe and I am using stainless rod for the slide but the weights will be the same.

My 1"x4"x42" bar stock for the dovetail arrived and it surprised me how heavy it is.....Realized am I now pretty sure I wont be manhandling this thing into the saddle all in one piece

More likely installing the dovetail with the rings open and then sitting the OTA in it as I have seen others doing with these long scopes.....




Oh..I see..you used the tube ring design..like Jeff's.

Yes and then you attach the extension for the slide bar.

Stainless bar will be quite heavy compared to either copper pipe..or like what I used steal pipe.

I made my counterweights to be extremely low profile to be in line with the over all design of my scope.

Does Parallax make the weights along with the rings..or are they a seporate item you need to buy from someone else?







Got ya. Rotational torque can be a problem with rotating rings. I assume they are secured by way of nylon bolts.

I've successfully used my many spotters on my 6"f/15 and they never caused an issue to have to use rotating rings.

I'm assuming your tube will be 9"~10" OD. Will you go typical white with black rings...or try something *NOVEL* and paint it something different? Have you mentioned recently what you will be using for your mount?

I can't wait for the images to start coming in so we can see your fine project coming to furitian.

Good luck.

Rob


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GShaffer
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: rwiederrich]
      #3668569 - 03/08/10 09:11 PM

Probably dont need the rotation but I like the idea, sort of a gatling gun effect

9" tube....Real telescopes are white....real rings are black unless they have diamonds attached

I did order a set of 4" MOONEYES stickers for each side of the dew shield if that helps your sense of novelty lol....


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mikey cee
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: GShaffer]
      #3668742 - 03/08/10 10:56 PM Attachment (70 downloads)

What the hell is a mooneye? Real custom telescopes are green. If it comes white you have to abide by that fact.:pMike

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rwiederrich
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: GShaffer]
      #3669284 - 03/09/10 08:58 AM

Quote:

Probably dont need the rotation but I like the idea, sort of a gatling gun effect

9" tube....Real telescopes are white....real rings are black unless they have diamonds attached

I did order a set of 4" MOONEYES stickers for each side of the dew shield if that helps your sense of novelty lol....




I'll be interested in seeing how you handle the induced rotation issues with several spotters.

I'll let the *white* comment slide by...simply because you and I both know that isn't so......

Keep up the good work......

Rob


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rwiederrich
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: mikey cee]
      #3669317 - 03/09/10 09:13 AM

Quote:

What the hell is a mooneye? Real custom telescopes are green. If it comes white you have to abide by that fact.:pMike




You made a very good point....*If it COMES white*.
Real homemade refractors are always green.....

Because the maker...makess it so...
The 12" at Griffith park is green.....Palomar is green(well its a reflector). Your Brandt beauty.....

Any way...it looks like we are still in the minority.

Rob(green is the new white)


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Jeff B
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: rwiederrich]
      #3669381 - 03/09/10 09:47 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Probably dont need the rotation but I like the idea, sort of a gatling gun effect

9" tube....Real telescopes are white....real rings are black unless they have diamonds attached

I did order a set of 4" MOONEYES stickers for each side of the dew shield if that helps your sense of novelty lol....




I'll be interested in seeing how you handle the induced rotation issues with several spotters.

I'll let the *white* comment slide by...simply because you and I both know that isn't so......

Keep up the good work......

Rob




With regards to the torque induced by the finders & other accessories, in my case a 4" F10 achromat. That's what the counterpoise weight system does, it balances the off axis torque induced by those accessories. With big diameter tubes, that torque is considerable and applies added stress to the RA and DEC gear trains if not compensated for. Also, the rotating rings for the main scope would be useless without the counterpoise weights as the accessories would always want to rotate themselves down to the bottom. You'll notice on my design, I space them out from the tube a ways to give them more counter-torque. Then I put the weights on a sliding bar so that I can balance the scope when swapping out various eyepieces and especially the bino viewer. I left a stub shaft sticking out a couple of inches from the aft most support bracket. I attach a weight there that just happens to be the same weight as the binoviewer. So when I attach the binoviewer I simply remove that extra weight.

With regards to the rotating rings themselves, well...I LOVE THEM!! Getting easy access to any of the finders or the 4" scope for wide field views no matter what I'm looking at or where I am in the observatory is simply a matter of grabbing the handles on the back plate and rotating the tube around. They also allow me to rotate the accessories out of the way when I go to close the roof. They were a bit pricy but well worth the extra bucks IMO. BTW the rings are held to the main tube with ten, 3/8" nylon bolts.

With regards to the color white, well in my case I wanted powder coating and the only vendor who could do a tube of that length offered only black, red, yellow, blue, green and...white. Hey for only $150, which included the dew shield, I took good old white. I was thinking of a nice pearl metalic but my auto body buddly wanted over $800 to do a proper job of it. Besides powder coating is tough as nails so when I went to slide the rings over the tube, there were NO scratches and NO ring rashes from the accessory clamps.



Jeff


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rwiederrich
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Jeff B]
      #3669473 - 03/09/10 10:38 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Probably dont need the rotation but I like the idea, sort of a gatling gun effect

9" tube....Real telescopes are white....real rings are black unless they have diamonds attached

I did order a set of 4" MOONEYES stickers for each side of the dew shield if that helps your sense of novelty lol....




I'll be interested in seeing how you handle the induced rotation issues with several spotters.

I'll let the *white* comment slide by...simply because you and I both know that isn't so......

Keep up the good work......

Rob




With regards to the torque induced by the finders & other accessories, in my case a 4" F10 achromat. That's what the counterpoise weight system does, it balances the off axis torque induced by those accessories. With big diameter tubes, that torque is considerable and applies added stress to the RA and DEC gear trains if not compensated for. Also, the rotating rings for the main scope would be useless without the counterpoise weights as the accessories would always want to rotate themselves down to the bottom. You'll notice on my design, I space them out from the tube a ways to give them more counter-torque. Then I put the weights on a sliding bar so that I can balance the scope when swapping out various eyepieces and especially the bino viewer. I left a stub shaft sticking out a couple of inches from the aft most support bracket. I attach a weight there that just happens to be the same weight as the binoviewer. So when I attach the binoviewer I simply remove that extra weight.

With regards to the rotating rings themselves, well...I LOVE THEM!! Getting easy access to any of the finders or the 4" scope for wide field views no matter what I'm looking at or where I am in the observatory is simply a matter of grabbing the handles on the back plate and rotating the tube around. They also allow me to rotate the accessories out of the way when I go to close the roof. They were a bit pricy but well worth the extra bucks IMO. BTW the rings are held to the main tube with ten, 3/8" nylon bolts.

With regards to the color white, well in my case I wanted powder coating and the only vendor who could do a tube of that length offered only black, red, yellow, blue, green and...white. Hey for only $150, which included the dew shield, I took good old white. I was thinking of a nice pearl metalic but my auto body buddly wanted over $800 to do a proper job of it. Besides powder coating is tough as nails so when I went to slide the rings over the tube, there were NO scratches and NO ring rashes from the accessory clamps.



Jeff





Jeff I'm so glad you piped in.....

Yes..counter weighting the spotters is a necessity with rotating rings...as you clearly pointed out.

However...I've taken the approach that I located my spotters at 90deg to each other...kinda countering themselves. You've done so well in your example..and it can be used as a guidepost. Since tube rotation isn't an issue for me....counter balancing is done via the simplest way..I could think.

As far as color.....any large refractor is beautiful..in any color. I don't clamp... I bolt. the only ring marks if any will be by the main tube rings. And they won't be seen cuz the scope *Lives* there clamped in them.

Your scope is as awesome as they can come.....

Rob


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GShaffer
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: mikey cee]
      #3670051 - 03/09/10 02:35 PM Attachment (66 downloads)

Allow me to elucidate The largest ones are 4" tall. Mooneyes is now a automobile performance parts company but I believe they got start making the old popular "mooneyes" wheel covers that were real popular 40 yrs or so ago.




Quote:

What the hell is a mooneye? Real custom telescopes are green. If it comes white you have to abide by that fact.:pMike




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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: rwiederrich]
      #3670101 - 03/09/10 02:52 PM

Two sets of counterweights....one set ahead of the rings that can be slid from just behind the dewshield to just infront of the front rotating ring. Doubles as rotational counter balance and can be moved back and forth for front to rear balancing also. If I need additional weight to offset a change in the rotation balance but need to keep the front to rear the same I will add one weight to each end.....Should make for a very versitile setup.

Jeff Blazey gets the credit as I stole the concept from his setup Thanks Jeff.....

Another set at the rear which also can be slid back and forth from just behind the rear rotating ring to just in front of the focuser. Also accomplishing two purposes like the set in the front.

Quote:

Quote:

Probably dont need the rotation but I like the idea, sort of a gatling gun effect

9" tube....Real telescopes are white....real rings are black unless they have diamonds attached

I did order a set of 4" MOONEYES stickers for each side of the dew shield if that helps your sense of novelty lol....




I'll be interested in seeing how you handle the induced rotation issues with several spotters.

I'll let the *white* comment slide by...simply because you and I both know that isn't so......

Keep up the good work......

Rob




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GShaffer
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: GShaffer]
      #4309922 - 01/12/11 05:17 PM

Have resumed work on the project and been thinking on the baffel system and how to construct it.....Obviously being a f/15 8" its going to be a rather long scope.

Finally had a brainstorm after thinking for a while on a pic of John Pons baffle system for his 11" that Daniel Mounsey sent me a pic of.....

Carbon Fiber arrow shafts used as spacers between the baffles, baffels made out of thin aluminum plate with a triangle configuration of the arrow shafts as spacers. Can easily cut them to length, glue in the inserts you would normally screw the broadhead into and use a piece of threaded rod to connnect them with the baffles sandwiched between the ends.....

Super light, strong, already nice and dull black ....will have 5 baffles and once assembled can just be slid into the tube and anchored at the ends.....

Cant think of a reason this wouldnt work well.....thoughts?....Anyone done it?


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Dick Parker
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: GShaffer]
      #4310014 - 01/12/11 05:46 PM Attachment (57 downloads)

It is not necessary to get that elaborate. I have made baffles in a similar fashion for my 6 inch f/15. I used plywood disks though and wood stringers. Small screws held the disks to the stringers. Very simple, very light. See attached photo. I did paint the assembly flat black before I inserted it into the tube, but I thought showing the baffle system before paint might be more useful. You could improve upon this slightly by trimming the ID of each disk into a thin edge.

If your main question about "..anybody done this.." is more directed toward the concept of making baffle disks on stringers that you slip into a tube, Yes, it has been done and I highly recommend it.

Dick Parker


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rwiederrich
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Dick Parker]
      #4310067 - 01/12/11 06:04 PM

My 5 baffle ring/stringer was 13ft long and slit nicely into the tube of my 12" OTA. It doesn't need to be secured because it rests up against the back plate...and since it is firmly placed and the scope aims high...it isn't going anywhere. However...I cn easily grab it and slide it out if need be..after I remove the cell adapter from the tube.

Rob


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Sean Cunneen
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: rwiederrich]
      #4310247 - 01/12/11 07:14 PM

Stringers are the way. You can't see them from the tube and you have precise control making them square. Baffles that you press fit or screw in to attach can look slightly off unless your lucky...




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Jeff B
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Sean Cunneen]
      #4311209 - 01/13/11 08:20 AM

With a larger instrument, tube currents are an issue. The warm air can pile up and spill over the baffle and into the light path. so I've adopted a best practice of "ventilating" my baffles. This is basically leaving a small gap between the tube and baffle OD, which allows the warmer air to cling to the tube wall and not pond or pool behind the baffles. There are many ways to do this. One of the simplest with the stinger arrangeement is to simply allow the stinger to stick out from the baffle OD a bit, thus creating the desired gap between the tube ID and baffle OD. Also, this makes assembly into the tube very easy as the baffles tend to self-center and you're only sliding them in along stingers instead of the baffle ODs. With a long & large baffle array, sliding them in on the baffle ODs can be a challenge as each baffle adds its own friction against the tube wall. This couple with the fact that the tube will not be perfectly round at some points along its length can make baffle installation with that design a very fustrating and tense experience.

And don't forget the PICTURES (!!)

Jeff


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GShaffer
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Jeff B]
      #4311286 - 01/13/11 09:03 AM

Thanks guys.....I had considered using wood but want the scope to remain as light as possible....the carbon graphite shafts and thin aluminum sheet for the baffles seemed the best solution.....

Jeff B....I had not considered this regarding the tube currents so I will put some thought into that....thanks!


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Mirzam
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: GShaffer]
      #4311438 - 01/13/11 10:19 AM

I think you would want a pretty close fit of the baffle rings to the tube, but not so tight as to make it difficult to insert the baffle assembly. The reason for this is to avoid leakage of low angle reflected light around the outer edges of the baffles. If you build an assembly that is too loose you will see what I mean (been there already).

JimC


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Darkenergy426
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Mike I. Jones]
      #4311750 - 01/13/11 01:02 PM

The optic world lost out, but I'll bet that the lawyers didn't.

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rwiederrich
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Jeff B]
      #4311793 - 01/13/11 01:19 PM

And as one can recall..that is the very design I utalized for my 12" tube. It is(IMV) a must to allow heat access..and as you accurately described, it permits 3 points of contact instead of the entire OD of the individual rings.

It worked for me that's for sure.

Rob


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rwiederrich
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: GShaffer]
      #4311800 - 01/13/11 01:22 PM

Visit my yahoo site..*Homemade refrator telescopes* and check out the images of what I did for my 10"f/15.
Jeff B has some images there as well of what he did.

Rob


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Jeff B
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: rwiederrich]
      #4311876 - 01/13/11 02:01 PM

Thanks Rob!

And even more helpful hints:

I usually use a fully illuminated field spot at focus of ~35-40MM and I don't recommend using the IDs of the focuser drawtube or the diagonal nose to set the spot size. Those restrictions can create a bit of scatter as they typically are not "knife edge" and they are behind the baffling, who's mission is to absorb stray light.

Rather, I use one of the stops about 30-50% back from the lens to set the spot and , even though the other stop ID's have been calculated for a certain axial position, I actually position them a couple of inches behind where they should be. But why he asks? Well even knife edge baffles have scatter and if you position them exactly where the calculations say they should go, that means their IDs are touching the light cone and the small scatter from their IDs can intrude. Backing them up a couple of inches from their "ideal' location removes them and their scatter from the light path.

TAH DAH.

Jeff


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rwiederrich
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Jeff B]
      #4312182 - 01/13/11 03:50 PM

Quote:

Thanks Rob!

And even more helpful hints:

I usually use a fully illuminated field spot at focus of ~35-40MM and I don't recommend using the IDs of the focuser drawtube or the diagonal nose to set the spot size. Those restrictions can create a bit of scatter as they typically are not "knife edge" and they are behind the baffling, who's mission is to absorb stray light.

Rather, I use one of the stops about 30-50% back from the lens to set the spot and , even though the other stop ID's have been calculated for a certain axial position, I actually position them a couple of inches behind where they should be. But why he asks? Well even knife edge baffles have scatter and if you position them exactly where the calculations say they should go, that means their IDs are touching the light cone and the small scatter from their IDs can intrude. Backing them up a couple of inches from their "ideal' location removes them and their scatter from the light path.

TAH DAH.

Jeff




You're so smart.

Rob(Did I teach you that?)


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GShaffer
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: rwiederrich]
      #4313591 - 01/14/11 08:18 AM

Very nice to have the input of those who came before me Thanks guys!!

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Robert Bupp
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Mike I. Jones]
      #4512899 - 04/12/11 08:46 AM

Mike,
I can continue the Muffoletto Optical Company story a bit. Your description so far is quite accurate, and leaves the lingering question about what happened to its people and equipment. Subsequent to the falling apart as you described, a group of (N)ine (U)nemployed (Tek)nicians regrouped formally as Nu-Tek Precision Optical Corporation, first in a basement, then in a warehouse facility, and finally in a manufacturing facility in Aberdeen MD where it (we) have been operating since 1998. Nu-Tek was born in a hostile environment, with a daunting (baseless, and ultimately dismissed) lawsuit hanging over it in its early years. There was no cooperation with at all with equipment, so the opticians were starting from scratch, with only their abilities. Not exactly a seamless transition.

The group of nine worked for several years as Nu-Tek, and over half are still working here now. With about 16 employees in manufacturing, the talent, techniques, and experiences are being passed down already through two generations from the original group.

As for the equipment, we understand that it was unceremoniously set out in the parking lot in the end, and the Nu-Tek group had no knowledge and no opportunity to purchase or acquire any of it.

We regularly work with university and government labs, as our emphasis continues to be very high quality, prototyping and low rates on optical components and subassemblies, including diamond turning and massive (up to 1.5m) optics.

If someone is looking to connect with one of the old Muffoletto guys that they used to know, there is enough information above to find Nu-Tek on the web, and somebody here would be happy to fill in what we know.
Kind Regards,
Robert Bupp


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Mirzam
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Robert Bupp]
      #4512961 - 04/12/11 09:31 AM

Hello Robert,

Welcome to Cloudy Nights!

I was wondering if your company does small diamond generation projects, such a generating a rough curve on 16" pyrex mirror blank? (Which I happen to have sitting in my basement not too far away from Aberdeen).

JimC


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Jim Curry
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: GShaffer]
      #4514941 - 04/13/11 08:01 AM

So Herb, where's the pics?

Jim


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mikey cee
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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Jim Curry]
      #4515172 - 04/13/11 10:28 AM

Come to think of it I haven't seen any pics yet either!!

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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Jim Curry]
      #4515178 - 04/13/11 10:30 AM

Sadly due to some health issues the project has been on hold for a while now. Things are getting better though and I am back to about 90%.....Will likely start back to work on it in a month or two....

Quote:

So Herb, where's the pics?

Jim




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Jim Curry
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Reged: 10/29/07

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Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: GShaffer]
      #4515774 - 04/13/11 02:59 PM

I'm sorry to have harassed you.
Get well soon!!

Regards,
Jim


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JohnBuilt
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Reged: 01/10/13

Re: 8" f/15 refractor project new [Re: Robert Bupp]
      #5615255 - 01/10/13 11:02 AM

I too wonder about the old Muffoletto Optical shop. I worked there from 1978 - about 1982 I believe, on Everall Ave. There were a great group of guys, lets see if I can recall ~ Big Mike & Little Mike, Chuck the engineer, Bob, Frank the crazy grinder operator, Bill the mad machinist, Pat, Emil, John, Pete, Ron Athey, And the Coating Room Guy. I personally trained in grinding and polishing, and was working with Verne, and Chuck, training in the coating operation. I was sent to Denton for a class, after that it seemed a bit strained between Carl Jr = Vern's son, and myself, I think he wanted the coating room position, but never pursued it until I got involved. So I moved on. But yes, a tremendous group of talent, concentrated in such a small area.

Edited by JohnBuilt (01/10/13 11:07 AM)


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