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don clement
Vendor (Clement Focuser)


Reged: 02/02/11

Loc: Running Springs, California
Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new [Re: Dick Jacobson]
      #5639956 - 01/24/13 02:23 AM

Quote:

Don, I have a very similar 7x12 bandsaw (Wilton brand) but haven't used it very much because it breaks the blade almost every time I use it. The blade always breaks at the weld. I don't know whether it's just a bad weld, too little tension, too much tension, or what. I don't use any fluid. Any insight?




The Chicom 7x12 bandsaw brands are all very similar. Wiltron brand used to be USA made but like most everything else nowadays... What material are you cutting? What type of blade and tpi? Variable tpi or fixed? What blade speed/feed were you using? The 7x12 doesn't have the largest diameter tires so any blade is going to have a limited lifespan, however I get decent lifespan from the Lenox 4-6tpi bi-metal blade when cutting aluminum. I do cut dry in the vertical mode with a table in place using the Vortec cold air gun with no real problems so I don't believe cutting dry is the issue. Aluminum needs a very coarse blade to properly eject the swarf/chips. Too fine a blade (high tpi) with aluminum could cause blade breakage. Blade tension is also a factor. Blade guide alignment and tire alignment can also be factors.

Don

BTW that is a Cenco lab jack in the vise behind the round. The lab jack allows me to hold really short rounds in the bandsaw vise and get the most from my stock.


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jasonharris
sage


Reged: 09/16/06

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new [Re: whirlpoolm51]
      #5639964 - 01/24/13 02:31 AM

You're knowledge of a lathe doesnt seem to be that great. If you had any amount of time on one I think you would have a better appreciation of what is involved, or you should if you have had to make precise parts.

Others have given you fairly good advise. If you really want one I would suggest you take your grandad up on his suggestion to get you one, pay him back even.

I would talk to him and be sure that what he is suggesting is something that would do what you want. I dont believe it is, building a lathe is something no one would undertake unless it was for the project itself. To build a lathe to use for work doesnt make sense if you can afford one.


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skinnyonce
super member
*****

Reged: 03/23/11

Loc: ohio
Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new [Re: jasonharris]
      #5639981 - 01/24/13 03:09 AM

lets not forget ole Mr safety

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Mirzam
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 04/01/08

Loc: Lovettsville, VA
Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new [Re: skinnyonce]
      #5640176 - 01/24/13 08:24 AM

Actually, to build a proper lathe, you need....a lathe. (And a milling machine).

Okay you could buy a lot of already made lathe parts and not need the lathe to make them. But then you might as well buy a used lathe.

JimC


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Pinbout
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 02/22/10

Loc: nj
Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new [Re: whirlpoolm51]
      #5640242 - 01/24/13 09:20 AM

Quote:

I am 100 percent confident that he knows what he's doind hahaha if he can make his own mini cnc machines I'm pretty sure he can make me a mini bench lathe!!!




your absolutely right. I don't know why your getting all this push back on a dream you have. its great you can participate with someone that you totally look up to.

I got to try to make some things with my grandfather but that was when I was 12 [a long time ago]


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Dick Jacobson
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/22/06

Loc: Plymouth, Minnesota, USA
Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new [Re: don clement]
      #5640243 - 01/24/13 09:20 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Don, I have a very similar 7x12 bandsaw (Wilton brand) but haven't used it very much because it breaks the blade almost every time I use it. The blade always breaks at the weld. I don't know whether it's just a bad weld, too little tension, too much tension, or what. I don't use any fluid. Any insight?




The Chicom 7x12 bandsaw brands are all very similar. Wiltron brand used to be USA made but like most everything else nowadays... What material are you cutting? What type of blade and tpi? Variable tpi or fixed? What blade speed/feed were you using? The 7x12 doesn't have the largest diameter tires so any blade is going to have a limited lifespan, however I get decent lifespan from the Lenox 4-6tpi bi-metal blade when cutting aluminum. I do cut dry in the vertical mode with a table in place using the Vortec cold air gun with no real problems so I don't believe cutting dry is the issue. Aluminum needs a very coarse blade to properly eject the swarf/chips. Too fine a blade (high tpi) with aluminum could cause blade breakage. Blade tension is also a factor. Blade guide alignment and tire alignment can also be factors.

Don

BTW that is a Cenco lab jack in the vise behind the round. The lab jack allows me to hold really short rounds in the bandsaw vise and get the most from my stock.



There is a noticeable "thump" every time the weld passes through the guide rollers, even with a new blade. Gradually the thump gets more intense until the blade breaks. I cut both aluminum and mild steel, occasionally stainless. So far I've used only carbon steel blades, maybe I'll try a bi-metal. I've had my broken blades welded at a local shop and the welds don't look real neat so that could be part of the problem, but I've also broken a few brand-new blades from Grainger. I've played around with blade tension and that doesn't seem to help, use a slow feed rate (1 or 2 on the dial) and tightened the spring to lower the vertical force.

I also have one of the little $200 4x6 bandsaws and do almost all of my cutting with it. At least it never breaks blades, although they come loose sometimes!


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whirlpoolm51
professor emeritus
****

Reged: 01/05/12

Loc: pittsburgh,pa
Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new [Re: Dick Jacobson]
      #5640371 - 01/24/13 10:36 AM

found a used sherline lathe and milling machine package at a local used tool shop for 950!!!!!!! I aw this package on ebay going for 1500 with both lathe and miller and tools !!! I am going to get it!!! - I really do thank you all for your help all of your ideas got the ball rolling!! ecspecially the bandsaw ideas !!! the bandsaw is really an all around good tool

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Geo.
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new [Re: jasonharris]
      #5640452 - 01/24/13 11:15 AM

How expensive is it, really? I have a Smithy Chinese made three way (MIDAS 1220 XL). These are not the greatest mills in the world, but you can do a lot with them. I found it in the Want Ad Digest and had to travel 20 miles to pick it up. I paid $700. The mill sells new for about $2050 with the freight. The seller tossed in about $1000 (retail) value) in accessories. I was able to get it out of the seller's basement and into my compact SUV. It's been a lot of fun learning to use it and I've been able to make a little money with it. One benefit of dealing with Smithy is that do provide parts support.

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tim53
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA
Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new [Re: Geo.]
      #5640596 - 01/24/13 12:43 PM

Old used machine tools are like old classic telescopes and antique cars - people want the new stuff so its not hard to find the old stuff in good condition for great prices. People collect classic scopes (or cars) because they like them, but they're still quite functional in the modern era, and since there are so many old ones in great condition still available, it doesn't make sense for someone to build their own or buy new unless that's specifically what they want (at much higher cost)

Tim


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Happy-Idiot
Stuck with it
*****

Reged: 04/06/06

Loc: 3rd Rock
Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new [Re: m. allan noah]
      #5641218 - 01/24/13 06:36 PM

I only wish i could do some of the quality work in this video for example

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ZeroID
sage


Reged: 04/21/10

Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new [Re: Dick Jacobson]
      #5641500 - 01/24/13 09:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Don, I have a very similar 7x12 bandsaw (Wilton brand) but haven't used it very much because it breaks the blade almost every time I use it. The blade always breaks at the weld. I don't know whether it's just a bad weld, too little tension, too much tension, or what. I don't use any fluid. Any insight?




The Chicom 7x12 bandsaw brands are all very similar. Wiltron brand used to be USA made but like most everything else nowadays... What material are you cutting? What type of blade and tpi? Variable tpi or fixed? What blade speed/feed were you using? The 7x12 doesn't have the largest diameter tires so any blade is going to have a limited lifespan, however I get decent lifespan from the Lenox 4-6tpi bi-metal blade when cutting aluminum. I do cut dry in the vertical mode with a table in place using the Vortec cold air gun with no real problems so I don't believe cutting dry is the issue. Aluminum needs a very coarse blade to properly eject the swarf/chips. Too fine a blade (high tpi) with aluminum could cause blade breakage. Blade tension is also a factor. Blade guide alignment and tire alignment can also be factors.

Don

BTW that is a Cenco lab jack in the vise behind the round. The lab jack allows me to hold really short rounds in the bandsaw vise and get the most from my stock.



There is a noticeable "thump" every time the weld passes through the guide rollers, even with a new blade. Gradually the thump gets more intense until the blade breaks. I cut both aluminum and mild steel, occasionally stainless. So far I've used only carbon steel blades, maybe I'll try a bi-metal. I've had my broken blades welded at a local shop and the welds don't look real neat so that could be part of the problem, but I've also broken a few brand-new blades from Grainger. I've played around with blade tension and that doesn't seem to help, use a slow feed rate (1 or 2 on the dial) and tightened the spring to lower the vertical force.

I also have one of the little $200 4x6 bandsaws and do almost all of my cutting with it. At least it never breaks blades, although they come loose sometimes!




There should be wee grinder on the blade welder and you should grind the weld flat BEFORE using it. Just needs a touch up either side of the blade to smooth it out so it doesn't jam and break going through the guides.


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John Carruthers
Skiprat
*****

Reged: 02/02/07

Loc: Kent, UK
Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new [Re: whirlpoolm51]
      #5641937 - 01/25/13 04:50 AM

Quote:

found a used sherline lathe and milling machine package at a local used tool shop for 950!!!!!!! I aw this package on ebay going for 1500 with both lathe and miller and tools !!! I am going to get it!!! - I really do thank you all for your help all of your ideas got the ball rolling!! ecspecially the bandsaw ideas !!! the bandsaw is really an all around good tool




There is nothing you cannot then make. I would advise a short course in using machine tools and good workshop practice if only for the sake of safety.
These machines take no prisoners, especially the bandsaw (as used by butchers for slicing up animals).

Tubal Cain's books and Youtube articles are a good guide to safe work holding, and care of your tools.

Rule #1, NEVER LEAVE A CHUCK KEY IN THE CHUCK.

Rule #2, always turn the wokpiece over by hand to check it clears the machine BEFORE you switch on.

Rule #3, NEVER LEAVE A CHUCK KEY IN THE CHUCK.

Rule #4, Never brush swarf away with your hand, use a brush etc.

Rule #5, USE A FENCE AND A PUSH STICK WHEN POSSIBLE ON THE BANDSAW, KEEP HANDS CLEAR OF THE CUT SIDE OF THE BLADE (OR LOOSE FINGERS).

Please feel free to add your tips.......


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Mirzam
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 04/01/08

Loc: Lovettsville, VA
Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new [Re: John Carruthers]
      #5642044 - 01/25/13 07:50 AM

Always wear safety glasses. It's hard to look through a telescope with metal shards in your eyes.

JimC


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Dick Jacobson
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/22/06

Loc: Plymouth, Minnesota, USA
Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new [Re: Mirzam]
      #5642103 - 01/25/13 08:41 AM

In seventh grade, my woodworking teacher said "Never wear a necktie when using a lathe".

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JohnH
Carpal Tunnel
****

Reged: 10/04/05

Loc: Squamish BC Moved!!!!!
Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new [Re: whirlpoolm51]
      #5642374 - 01/25/13 11:25 AM

This guy (no pun intended) was a friend of Robin and between the two of them, they could come up with ways to shape metal using common tools most people would just slap their head and say "Why didn't I think of that?"

http://www.lautard.com/


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Ratchet
super member
*****

Reged: 08/07/11

Loc: Tallahassee, FL
Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new [Re: JohnH]
      #5642407 - 01/25/13 11:46 AM

Don't forget about table saws. A triple chip carbide blade can cut non ferrous metals pretty precise assuming you have a good saw and fence. They make blades to cut steel, but I have never used them, so cannot comment on those.

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Geo.
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new [Re: Ratchet]
      #5642516 - 01/25/13 12:45 PM

I have a circ saw that is designed to cut steel. $29 on the bargain table at Tractor Supply! It's pretty effective, but goes thru the $15 Harbor Freight specialty blades pretty quickly. The blades are carbide tipped with a special tooth grind. After about half of them are chipped I cut them back with an angle grinder and get some more use from the blade. Freud blades are about $50.

A surgeon told me he sees more bandsaw than any other power tool injuries. It seems the shields go down when the blade is hidden in the work. So just stay scared.

No neckties, loose clothing or gloves, jewelry or long hair.
A friend who doesn't wear his wedding ring anymore after it got caught and tore off his finger. A club member lost a hand after the cuff of a glove got snatched in a chopsaw blade. They put it back on but it's not much use anymore. Classmate of a gal at the observatory's daughter was killed at Yale when her hair was caught in a mill.

I've had a few close calls myself - a Dior necktie sucked into a 911's cooling fan was the most freightening. Still wonder how I got out of that alive. So don't be as my dad liked to say: "too soon old, too late smart."


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Pinbout
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 02/22/10

Loc: nj
Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new [Re: Geo.]
      #5642547 - 01/25/13 01:04 PM

how come every thread about tools gets side tracked about the horror stories? I'd rather see a different thread.

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don clement
Vendor (Clement Focuser)


Reged: 02/02/11

Loc: Running Springs, California
Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new [Re: whirlpoolm51]
      #5642653 - 01/25/13 01:58 PM

Quote:

found a used sherline lathe and milling machine package at a local used tool shop for 950!!!!!!! I aw this package on ebay going for 1500 with both lathe and miller and tools !!! I am going to get it!!! - I really do thank you all for your help all of your ideas got the ball rolling!! ecspecially the bandsaw ideas !!! the bandsaw is really an all around good tool




I found the book "Tabletop Machining" by Joe Martin very useful not just for table top sized machine tools.

http://www.amazon.com/Tabletop-Machining-Joe-Martin/dp/0966543300

After the drill press, a bandsaw was the next machine tool I purchased. BTW bandsaw doesn’t have to be a metal cutting bandsaw to cut aluminum. I used a 14” wood cutting bandsaw for many years to cut aluminum with excellent results. The trick to cutting aluminum was to use the proper blade such as the 4-6tpi Lenox blade and the right blade speed. (My 14” wood cutting bandsaw had 4 pulley speed change)

Don Clement


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obin robinson
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 10/25/12

Loc: League City, TX
Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new [Re: tim53]
      #5642665 - 01/25/13 02:07 PM

Quote:

Old used machine tools are like old classic telescopes and antique cars - people want the new stuff so its not hard to find the old stuff in good condition for great prices. People collect classic scopes (or cars) because they like them, but they're still quite functional in the modern era, and since there are so many old ones in great condition still available, it doesn't make sense for someone to build their own or buy new unless that's specifically what they want (at much higher cost)

Tim




I couldn't have said it better myself. Between Craigslist, eBay, local classified ads, estate sales, and garage sales there is no reason to buy a new lathe especially if you are a beginner. In many cases old Sears, Bridgeport, or Rockwell lathes from the 1960s or 1970s can accomplish everything you would need to do.

In many cases these things go up for sale under the condition of "local pick-up only" because of their size and weight. You might be able to score a $5,000 lathe for $500 if you have three strong friends and a pickup truck. Those deals are there and you just have to look for them.

To give you an idea of how good those old machines were I read an article a while back about some custom work done during WWII for the OSS (the agency before the CIA). One of the devices being inspected was apparently machined so perfectly that the inspector said it looked like a modern CNC machine did the cuts with laser precision. This work was done by hand, by eyeball, and with nothing more complex than a slide rule or pencil and paper to do all the calculations. Magnificent work can be done with old lathes. It just takes a careful skilled person to do the work.

obin


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