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whirlpoolm51
professor emeritus

Reged: 01/05/12

Loc: pittsburgh,pa

Shaping metal without milling or using lathe???
#5636115 - 01/22/13 01:46 AM

I would absolutley love to own a metal lathe or a milling machine , or even a cnc machine!!! but i sre as heck dont have the money for either of those at the moment so i am wondering if any of you have had this problem and came up with a nice solution to cutting and shaping certain metals like aluminum and plain steel???

I can cut and kind of carve now but i would like to be able to shape thicker aluminum and be more precise!!

Basically i want to do what a lathe.milling machine and cnc do but without either of them hahahaha and little gadgets you guys came up with to help you out??

Post Extras:

jasonharris
sage

Reged: 09/16/06

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: whirlpoolm51]
#5636177 - 01/22/13 03:13 AM

You may be a little out of luck I think.

Can you explain the kinds of things you want to do? It may be achievable depending what you need to make but getting the equivalent of a CNC or lathe/mill without them will generally either not be possible or be very hard.

Mild steel will be hard to work with, if you are really out of tools then you will be limited to sawing, i.e. hacksaw and filing.

Many guys who did their apprenticeship a good number of years ago would be very proficient with basic hand tools but it does take time.

Aluminium could have possbilities, you can use some woodworking tools and drill/tap it easy enough. Some people have success with a hand router but I would suggest good clamping and reasonable jigs to help.

So if you can tell us what you want to do there may be a way to do it with basic tools.

Post Extras:

Al8236
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 08/18/10

Loc: 48.9173N 122.1390W

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: whirlpoolm51]
#5636179 - 01/22/13 03:15 AM

Well I don't know what you have now but if you have a drill press you can do quite a bit with an cross feed vice.
It will take a little longer as you can't take as big of cut as a mill but can be very serviceable. I used this type of arraignment for many years before I got a mill!

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John Carruthers
Skiprat

Reged: 02/02/07

Loc: Kent, UK

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: whirlpoolm51]
#5636203 - 01/22/13 04:00 AM

Some people have used a wood router successfully on ally. A jigsaw with a suitable blade can help a lot too. You can make anything with a file and enough time. A vertical drill stand has its uses but a drill press is better obviously.
Some schools round here hold evening classes and rent tool time in their workshops.

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MKV
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 01/20/11

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Al8236]
#5636243 - 01/22/13 05:11 AM

Quote:

I used this type of arraignment for many years before I got a mill!

Okay, I am confused. I thought you didn't have a mill (or a lathe), which is why you started this thread.

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jasonharris
sage

Reged: 09/16/06

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: MKV]
#5636245 - 01/22/13 05:16 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I used this type of arraignment for many years before I got a mill!

Okay, I am confused. I thought you didn't have a mill (or a lathe), which is why you started this thread.

He didn't start the thread, that may end the confusion

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RossSackett
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 08/17/07

Loc: Memphis, TN

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: jasonharris]
#5636313 - 01/22/13 07:09 AM

As mentioned, a drill press with some end mills and cross-feed table will take you far. Add a hacksaw, jeweler's saw (with lots of blades for both), tap and die set, some fresh double-cut and single-cut files and you will be able to accomplish a lot. You can fabricate many useful ATM parts by re-purposing various extrusions of aluminum, especially from thicker (1/4" +) sections. I would caution you not to jump in and use woodworking tools like routers and tablesaws until you have considerable experience--while a number of contributors to this forum have used them successfully to machine aluminum, others with just as much shop experience and skill have had some horrific incidents. Whatever you decide, keep in mind that metal must be clamped down whenever you machine it, even on a relatively safe machine like a drillpress--don't attempt to free-hand it as you might a long piece of wood.

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Mirzam
Post Laureate

Reged: 04/01/08

Loc: Lovettsville, VA

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: jasonharris]
#5636315 - 01/22/13 07:10 AM

I cut aluminum up to 1/4" thick on my bandsaw. Generally this is limited to cuts that are fairly short--on the order of several inches. This is plenty for making custom brackets and connectors. I do replace the blade about once a year. When I buy metal at a local welding shop I have them cut larger pieces of sheet aluminum to size for me. I've also had them make large aluminum rings by water jet cutting. It's not exactly cheap but well worth the cost to get some nice scope components.

A drill press is indispensable for working with metal. I bought my 1960's Rockwell-Delta floor standing model used, but you can purchase smaller tabletop drill presses (light duty) for very low prices. Like others have said, there also may be places in your area where you can go to use such equipment.

JimC

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Startraffic
sage

Reged: 02/12/06

Loc: Lat. 39.143345, Long. -77.1748...

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: whirlpoolm51]
#5636317 - 01/22/13 07:13 AM

whirlpoolm51,
You can indeed do a lot with a drill press with a cross slide vise. A bandsaw and even a bench mounted belt sander will get you going. They aren't the best tools bit if they're what ya got, use 'em.

Clear Dark Skies
Startraffic
39.138274 -77.168898

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m. allan noah
professor emeritus

Reged: 08/14/09

Loc: Virginia, USA

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Startraffic]
#5636375 - 01/22/13 08:21 AM

I've done a bit with a drillpress, I don't recommend it. The chuck is not intended to hold the hard shanks of endmills, and most small drill presses don't use a drawbar, so the chuck can come off fairly easily.

For low cost, it is hard to beat a good set of files.

But, you live in the rust belt. Your craigslist is full of milling machines and lathes. Save your nickels and buy an old used lathe and/or mill.

allan

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Dick Jacobson
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 12/22/06

Loc: Plymouth, Minnesota, USA

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: whirlpoolm51]
#5636405 - 01/22/13 08:47 AM

If you need to bend metal, Harbor Freight has a tool for making sharp bends (see Compact Bender) and also a tool for making larger radius bends (see Tubing Roller). I own both of these tools and they are outstanding.

You can easily cut aluminum plates on a table saw using a special blade for cutting non-ferrous metals (I found one at Home Depot).

I also own a "Smithy" combination mill/lathe/drill press and it works quite well but maybe out of your price range.

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tim53
Postmaster

Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Dick Jacobson]
#5636554 - 01/22/13 10:12 AM

I second the used machine suggestion. With shops going to Cnc these days, you can often find good lathes in the 9" range for under a K

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tim53
Postmaster

Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: tim53]
#5636562 - 01/22/13 10:14 AM

I bought a 9" south bend and a Sebastian 9" treadle lathe for $500 for the pair. My. Main lathe is a 9" champion blower and forge lathe I got for $250 several years back.

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ed_turco
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 08/29/09

Loc: Lincoln, RI

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: tim53]
#5636629 - 01/22/13 10:50 AM

Believe or don't. Both my telescopes at Stellafane were made of scrap and salvaged brass and mahogany; all the brasswork was done by hand with a file, sandpaper and a micrometer.

All by hand; it took a very stubborn attitude to do this and a few finger cuts.

I can hardly recommend this method, but a thickheaded person might try it.

Forget steel; stick with brass and aluminum. And when I finally got an industrial size woodlathe, (for free!), I even turned both these metals on it to great satisfaction. But I had to be very careful.

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Achernar
Postmaster

Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: whirlpoolm51]
#5636711 - 01/22/13 11:40 AM

Without a lathe or milling machine, the only ways to shape metal are files, saws and grinders, either angle or pencil type. I use all three for simple shaping operations. If you need to drill holes, a hammer, center punch and drill press will work. Another way to shape steel is a torch, you can heat it to about 1,500 degree and bend it to shape. I have also bent metal tubing with benders, and flat bar stock in a vise. I have also used a sanding wheel to shape softer aluminum alloys, which will clog a grinding wheel up in a hurry. You can also thread rods and holes in metal with tap and die sets. Sheet metal can be cut with shears, thicker metal with saws, plasma cutters, or a torch depending on what kind of metal it is. You can also weld steel with modest equipment, even aluminum at home as long as you are welding lighter gauge stock. Houses don't have the power for a welding machine suitable for heavy duty use. You can also gas weld and braze many metals yourself. If you have to shape metal to precise dimensions in complex shapes, I'm afraid you are out of luck and would need to pay a machinist to do it.

Taras

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careysub
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 02/18/11

Loc: Rancho Cucamonga, CA

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: ed_turco]
#5636795 - 01/22/13 12:29 PM Attachment (27 downloads)

I'm with Ed - Aluminum will do everything you need (it is in fact superior to steel for most telescope needs), and can readily be worked with hand tools.

A hack saw can cut even pretty thick aluminum easily enough (though it will be rough and need filing/grinding/sanding). You would be surprised how fast you can remove material with a file using proper technique.

A disk sander, or a belt sander (either a bench version, or a hand version in a jig, see picture) is/are a very useful tool(s) to shape and finish.

To be accurate you just need accurate measuring tools. A flat reference surface (melamine particle board is really pretty darn flat), a precision straight edge, an engineers square, micrometer and calipers, and a high quality fine division tape measure.

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don clement
Vendor (Clement Focuser)

Reged: 02/02/11

Loc: Running Springs, California

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Mirzam]
#5636802 - 01/22/13 12:31 PM

I often use a HF 7x12 horz/vert bandsaw to cut and shape aluminum. The blade that works best for aluminum is a 4-6 tpi Lenox bi-metal at 255 FPM. This blade cuts aluminum like oak wood. For cutoff in the horizontal mode flood coolant works best. (a 10% solution of Valcool VP650 I use a refractometer to monitor the coolant concentration http://morebeer.com/view_product/18739 ) However in the vertical mode I use a Vortec 610 cold air gun for cooling without the mess. http://www.vortexair.biz/Cooling/ColdAirGun/coldairgun.html I typically cut-off aluminum rounds of 7” diameter (even 8" rounds if rotate the round) and easily shape ½”-1” thick aluminum plate with this bandsaw and Lenox blade.

Don Clement

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Pinbout
Post Laureate

Reged: 02/22/10

Loc: Montclair

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: careysub]
#5636808 - 01/22/13 12:35 PM

Quote:

A disk sander, or a belt sander (either a bench version, or a hand version in a jig, see picture) is/are a very useful tool(s) to shape and finish.

+1 for disc and belt sanders for shaping, but for finishing a scotch brite wheel does the trick for nice grain, rouge and flannel/cotton wheel if you want to polish it.

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Sean Cunneen
Let Me Think

Reged: 08/01/07

Loc: Blue Island Illinois

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Pinbout]
#5637100 - 01/22/13 03:00 PM

Good/Fast/Cheap, pick two!

If you look at the build links in my signature, I make my stuff with minimal machining. There are some tasks where nothing but a lathe will do. I've found that aluminum works an awful lot like Oak. I have some tricks for working with aluminum like how to use a router for channels and grinding off the end tines on a spade bit for drilling large holes through aluminum.

By far the most useful tool for cave-manning metal is an angle grinder and cut-off disk. I can cut, grind and shape any piece of iron or aluminum in a few seconds. You go through a lot of disks and you can make some awfully big mistakes, but a drill press and a cut-off disk will get you pretty far.

I went and found a machine shop that will do leveling/flattening as well as simple turning operations for $10 here and there. I can't be picky or too precise, but little jobs here and there went a long way to making my mount as accurate as it is.

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jasonharris
sage

Reged: 09/16/06

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Sean Cunneen]
#5637354 - 01/22/13 05:07 PM

I think a lot of you may have got lucky when using a drill press for milling, as pointed out they dont have a draw bar and usually have very small tapers which will usually fall out with side loads - if it's work for you though...

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don clement
Vendor (Clement Focuser)

Reged: 02/02/11

Loc: Running Springs, California

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: jasonharris]
#5637410 - 01/22/13 05:33 PM

Quote:

I think a lot of you may have got lucky when using a drill press for milling, as pointed out they dont have a draw bar and usually have very small tapers which will usually fall out with side loads - if it's work for you though...

+1 Caution on using the drill press for milling from my own experience. My old drill press has a #2 Morse taper with no draw bar. Also using an Albrecht drill chuck for holding an end mill is not advised. Chicom Mill drills with R8 spindle are pretty cheap nowadays although I really prefer a mill with a dovetail column not the round column mill drill.

BTW it's not really the size of the taper but how the end mill is held and the design of the spindle. E.g. my Sherline mill has a #1 Morse taper in the spindle but end mills up to 3/8" are held in a collet with a drawbar. My Sherline 5400 mill (upgraded to a model 2000 8 way mill http://www.sherline.com/2000pg.htm ) can be carried by hand and stored on a bookshelf but can really do some pretty big mill work. I built my first focuser prototype that measured 6” on each side with the Sherline mill in the second bedroom of a condo in San Diego. So one doesn’t really need massive machine tools to do real sized mill work, just well designed machine tools.

Don Clement

Edited by don clement (01/22/13 06:10 PM)

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StarStuff1
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 04/01/07

Loc: South of the Mason-Dixon Line

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: don clement]
#5637428 - 01/22/13 05:42 PM

I have used a large drill press with a sliding table to mill a few aluminum pieces. A very few as it was obvious one could easily get hurt.

In my shop are two small lathes. The smaller one is a Unimat. It has been a workhorse for smaller pieces such as eyepiece barrels and adapters.

Of all the tools in my shop: two tablesaws, oscillating spindle sander, disc sander, wood planer, band saw, etc, etc the one that has hurt me the most physically is the drill press. I just gotta learn to clamp things down and respect 2/3rds HP at 650 rpm.

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JohnH
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/04/05

Loc: Squamish BC Moved!!!!!

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: StarStuff1]
#5637563 - 01/22/13 07:06 PM

The first thing I did was I cultivated a relationship with a friend who did the sorts of projects using skills I needed.

Robin Allen http://www.thecrossbowmansden.com/Home.html organized the White Tower Society locally, and built various bows, crossbows and ring mail.

He showed me that you can go a long way with files,a hacksaw, a drill press and a lot of brains. Things like packing a files rills with talcum powder to get the last smoothing cuts perfect and keep the file from galling on aluminum.

He showed me how to cut aluminum tube and smaller stock on a table saw, and other pieces with a router and some jigs.

I agree that brass and aluminum are great materials to use. Soft enough to cut by hand if need be, workable with with common power tools most people can use in a shop without 220 wiring.

I did use 1/16" brass stock to face three cases I built for telescopes or accessories, and used a file to make it flush to the inside and at a 45 degree bevel on the other face. I did two of the three before Robin said you could just use a router and a flush and bevel bits instead but use a file for the final finish.

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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: don clement]
#5637634 - 01/22/13 07:59 PM

Quote:

I often use a HF 7x12 horz/vert bandsaw to cut and shape aluminum. The blade that works best for aluminum is a 4-6 tpi Lenox bi-metal at 255 FPM. This blade cuts aluminum like oak wood. For cutoff in the horizontal mode flood coolant works best. (a 10% solution of Valcool VP650 I use a refractometer to monitor the coolant concentration http://morebeer.com/view_product/18739 ) However in the vertical mode I use a Vortec 610 cold air gun for cooling without the mess. http://www.vortexair.biz/Cooling/ColdAirGun/coldairgun.html I typically cut-off aluminum rounds of 7” diameter (even 8" rounds if rotate the round) and easily shape ½”-1” thick aluminum plate with this bandsaw and Lenox blade.

Don Clement

Don:

That's a pretty nice saw. In my job, I do a lot of one off designs and work closely with a machine shop. They can do some amazing things with their saws, nice finishes with dimensions to within maybe 0.010." Those saws cost as much as a decent lathe or mill.

A couple of dozen donuts goes a long way in getting precision parts made.

Jon

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don clement
Vendor (Clement Focuser)

Reged: 02/02/11

Loc: Running Springs, California

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Jon Isaacs]
#5637775 - 01/22/13 09:08 PM

Quote:

Don:

That's a pretty nice saw. In my job, I do a lot of one off designs and work closely with a machine shop. They can do some amazing things with their saws, nice finishes with dimensions to within maybe 0.010." Those saws cost as much as a decent lathe or mill.

A couple of dozen donuts goes a long way in getting precision parts made.

Jon

Jon,

This Taiwanese 7x12 bandsaw was not really that expensive and can hold 0.010". I bought my 7x12 bandsaw from the local Harbor Freight down in the now bankrupt city of San Bernardino ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smfdZKg_XFc I believe this song sung by Jane Russell was a little joke from Howard Hughes about SB who was a writer and executive producer of "His Kind of Woman" 1951) was on sale combined with a 20% web coupon for IIR ~$450. BTW similar 4x6 bandsaws are going new for ~$200. The Lenox 4-6tpi bi-metal blade was perhaps $50 more. The blades are an expendable item so I have several spares. The one thing about having your own machine tools is that you can make changes and not have to rely on favors from some machine shop. In my case I also have a CNC mill so go directly from CAD design software to CAD software to producing parts myself- no middlemen. The bandsaw just makes it easier to put the raw aluminum stock into the right form to go onto the CNC mill.

Don Clement

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whirlpoolm51
professor emeritus

Reged: 01/05/12

Loc: pittsburgh,pa

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: don clement]
#5637899 - 01/22/13 10:34 PM

Wow thanks guys!!!! I know have alot of ideas!!! what i have in my shop already is a 10" dril press. 10" bandsaw that i use to cut aluminum and it works wonders!!!

A bench grinder which is nice for aluminum too , angle grinder.plunge router, rotozip spiral saw and a table saw

I will try the drill press technique as i have already tried but thanks to you guys i have a better grasp on it!!! dont worry i wil be okay i was born with a gift when it comes to working wqith tools hahahaha

what i really would like to do is make my own focusers , nuts, bols etc stuff like that

I have made mirror cells , pretty basic ones though

but right now focusers are my main goal!!

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jasonharris
sage

Reged: 09/16/06

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: whirlpoolm51]
#5637907 - 01/22/13 10:38 PM

I have seen focusers made with the tools you have, including crayfords if that is what you are trying to do.

Of course they included pipe that was available in the correct inner diameters, no lathe used.

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whirlpoolm51
professor emeritus

Reged: 01/05/12

Loc: pittsburgh,pa

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: jasonharris]
#5637924 - 01/22/13 10:43 PM

also i just ordered some aluminum brazing rods for my mapp torch so i can atleast do some little welds here and there!!

i would like to be able to cut large aluminum rings for upper otas also!!

Is there a cheap solution to welding steel??? can you braze it??

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Gordon Rayner
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 03/24/07

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: whirlpoolm51]
#5638158 - 01/23/13 01:21 AM

I used the lathes and mills and saws at night school machine shops and still have much of the tooling which accumulated as needed. There really is no good substitute for a good lathe ( think: threading of arbitrary size, or metric threads, or tapers). A good, usually vertical, milling machine with a boring head, for certain applications, would be slow and awkward and imprecise to replace ( hand filing bandsaw cut racetrack shaped openings in aluminum plate?).

I sold a small Emco Austrian vertical mill because of space limitations. Have not tried one of the Asian mill-drills. South Bend drill press ( does anybody have one of the slow speed intermediate pulley cone, dual belt attachments for sale? My countersinks chatter) is very useful, but trying end mills in a Walker-Turner drill press (sold for space reasons) was a shaky situation, for the reasons already described here by others.

A Harbor Freight 12 inch disc sander has been very useful. Male dovetails , or multi-piece female dovetails, can be made with it, corners rounded, etc. " What mill did you use?". Aluminum plate discs can be circularized and semi-finished with a fixture clamped to the sander table. A central shoulder screw, or just a plain screw, is the pivot.

One of the Harbor Freight geared down for metal 7 1/4 inch blade circular saws, with the stock blade replaced by an aluminum cutting blade, leaves a nice, straight, smooth cut which does not need finishing. " What kind of mill did your use?". A track with Teflon lined ways I made, with a clamping system (Carr-Lane components) keeps the saw going straight. It might work freehand.

Were I to re-equip, I should look for one of the geared-down toothed blade 12 inch Makita , or the 14 inch Delta, or other toothed, geared-down chopsaw style saws. They are overpriced new,being just geared-down versions of Chinese abrasive chopsaws ( avoid those for aluminum) but I understand that they are available as returns or reconditioned specimens from the importers.

For finishing, the HF 8 inch grinder/buffer, with the grinding wheel removed, has been a good spindle for the 3M dish-scrubber pad style medium grade discs , for aluminum. I have not used a 3M convoluted wheel I bought ($$$) much yet.

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tim53
Postmaster

Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Gordon Rayner]
#5638655 - 01/23/13 10:55 AM

I made the equatorial head for my 8" f/6 Springfield using a small metal bandsaw (in upright mode), a drill press, and a mill file. I used one of those adjustable circle cutters that looks like a fly-cutter with a pilot drill in the drill press for cutting the larger hole for the hollow dec axis/focuser, but it was pretty exciting!

Time for a restoration!

Since I made it 32 years ago, I've machined some of the bearing surfaces and focuser base, but it worked for several years with only the manual work done on it.

-Tim.

Post Extras:

Dick Jacobson
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 12/22/06

Loc: Plymouth, Minnesota, USA

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: don clement]
#5639179 - 01/23/13 04:15 PM

Quote:

I often use a HF 7x12 horz/vert bandsaw to cut and shape aluminum. The blade that works best for aluminum is a 4-6 tpi Lenox bi-metal at 255 FPM. This blade cuts aluminum like oak wood. For cutoff in the horizontal mode flood coolant works best. (a 10% solution of Valcool VP650 I use a refractometer to monitor the coolant concentration http://morebeer.com/view_product/18739 ) However in the vertical mode I use a Vortec 610 cold air gun for cooling without the mess. http://www.vortexair.biz/Cooling/ColdAirGun/coldairgun.html I typically cut-off aluminum rounds of 7” diameter (even 8" rounds if rotate the round) and easily shape ½”-1” thick aluminum plate with this bandsaw and Lenox blade.

Don Clement

Don, I have a very similar 7x12 bandsaw (Wilton brand) but haven't used it very much because it breaks the blade almost every time I use it. The blade always breaks at the weld. I don't know whether it's just a bad weld, too little tension, too much tension, or what. I don't use any fluid. Any insight?

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Pinbout
Post Laureate

Reged: 02/22/10

Loc: Montclair

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Dick Jacobson]
#5639195 - 01/23/13 04:22 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I often use a HF 7x12 horz/vert bandsaw to cut and shape aluminum. The blade that works best for aluminum is a 4-6 tpi Lenox bi-metal at 255 FPM. This blade cuts aluminum like oak wood. For cutoff in the horizontal mode flood coolant works best. (a 10% solution of Valcool VP650 I use a refractometer to monitor the coolant concentration http://morebeer.com/view_product/18739 ) However in the vertical mode I use a Vortec 610 cold air gun for cooling without the mess. http://www.vortexair.biz/Cooling/ColdAirGun/coldairgun.html I typically cut-off aluminum rounds of 7” diameter (even 8" rounds if rotate the round) and easily shape ½”-1” thick aluminum plate with this bandsaw and Lenox blade.

Don Clement

Don, I have a very similar 7x12 bandsaw (Wilton brand) but haven't used it very much because it breaks the blade almost every time I use it. The blade always breaks at the weld. I don't know whether it's just a bad weld, too little tension, too much tension, or what. I don't use any fluid. Any insight?

I had two of them one wilton and the other I think from grizzly, 7x12 is a nice size cause you can get quality bimetal blades.

my blades never broke and I never did the coolent pump thing, but I really never got a good straight cut from it. I'd always have to square it up on my 20in disc sander.

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Howie Glatter
Vendor

Reged: 07/04/06

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Pinbout]
#5639309 - 01/23/13 05:49 PM

> . . I really never got a good straight cut from it.

The blade guides at the ends of the length-adjustable arms, where the blade leaves and re-enters the saw frame, should have angle adjustments to make the blade square to the work. They have either ball bearings or carbide pieces as blade guides, and should also be adjusted for the thickness of the blade plus a couple thousandts of an inch.

Post Extras:

whirlpoolm51
professor emeritus

Reged: 01/05/12

Loc: pittsburgh,pa

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Howie Glatter]
#5639352 - 01/23/13 06:13 PM

Exactly what howie said!!! my pap has a larger one of those and he has showed me multiple times how to line up and adjust the blade angle and depth , after i kept gettting frustrated becasue my cuts were never straight!! hahaha

i asked my pap about what i could use to cut and shape aluminum and at first he offered to buy me a lathe hahaha but i declined becasue hes just too nice and i can save for one but in the mean time he showed me a really neat trick to where i wont even have to buy a lathe....but...make my own!!!

Basically if you think about it all the lathe is , is very high torque and high rpm motor running the whole thing!! the only thing that makes the lathe unique is its chuck and the slide table plus adjustable speed right??

So my pap ripped open an old bench grinder he had and showed me that with a little time and patience i could make my own lathe with the motor!!! granted i could buy the 3500 rpm motor but they get pricey and hard to find with the right torque/RPM ratio!!

He is going to guide me along and help me build it!! i really nice and intresting project. He has a friend that owns a machine shop also that said he would help us build it and that if i ever want to come to his shop and use the machines i can!! and he even said i could use his aluminum!! how about that!!! all this time and my answer was right in front of me hahahaha

It also clikced that the arduino circuit boards i have are used in many DIY cnc machines which are easily made with the right know how and some junk laying around with stepper motors hooked up to a CAD program!!! has anyone ever looked into this??

Post Extras:

Gary Fuchs
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 05/22/06

Loc: Easton, PA, USA

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: whirlpoolm51]
#5639434 - 01/23/13 07:03 PM

Quote:

Basically if you think about it all the lathe is , is very high torque and high rpm motor running the whole thing!! the only thing that makes the lathe unique is its chuck and the slide table plus adjustable speed right??

Not exactly...maybe you and your pap should spend some time at your friend's machine shop? (hahahaha)

Maybe also have a look at something like this little book while you're building?

Gary

Post Extras:

jasonharris
sage

Reged: 09/16/06

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Gary Fuchs]
#5639471 - 01/23/13 07:40 PM

I would use your friends shop to do the odd job for astronomy, you will get your stuff made and use far less of his time than trying to build a lathe.

Speed and torque is usually more a result of the gearing in the lathe for which there are many combinations. Of course the speed of the motor has a bearing on this but it's not really the deciding factor as most lathes will have a basic 1440 or 2880 rpm motor, nothing esoteric.

Perhaps looking at the gingery lathe book may help, I have never looked at it but I assume it goes in to what is required.

My guess is that your dad is showing you something that will let you do some basic turning, more like a wood lathe but far short of what you can do on a metal lathe.

Post Extras:

m. allan noah
professor emeritus

Reged: 08/14/09

Loc: Virginia, USA

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: jasonharris]
#5639547 - 01/23/13 08:46 PM

You don't need to buy a copy of HTRAL, you can download it online: http://wswells.com/data/htral/htral_index.html

Oh, and your pap is about as wrong as can be about what it takes to make a lathe. You want a large diameter, slow speed spindle, not a small fast one. Oh, and you want to be able to thread, and have a tailstock to support the work, etc.

You are still better off buying something and fixing it than building one from scratch, but you have to do your homework first.

allan

Post Extras:

tim53
Postmaster

Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: m. allan noah]
#5639607 - 01/23/13 09:47 PM

I have the same saw that don has. I get pretty good results by using the coolant always a d setting the feed as slow as I can stand it. Recently, the smoke got out of the original motor and I replaced it with an old one I had laying around. Now I k ow why it was laying around! I have to hold the sAw back or the smoke will escape that motor too. Will just have to buy a new one I suppose.

Tim

Post Extras:

mattflastro
sage

Reged: 07/31/09

Loc: Brevard County , FL

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: tim53]
#5639727 - 01/23/13 10:51 PM

a lot of good options were suggested.
Some different options :

www.emachineshop.com

www.preciseparts.com

http://www.fotofab.com/

Post Extras:

whirlpoolm51
professor emeritus

Reged: 01/05/12

Loc: pittsburgh,pa

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: mattflastro]
#5639749 - 01/23/13 11:10 PM

I didn't mean it was gonna be easy I was just saying fro my grandpap it makes sense and he understands what it takes to construct certain machines. I understand there's a lot more to it but a lathe isn't exactly the most intricate tool around!!! hahaha my pap has worked in welding,machinig, iron works and even glass making in my mind he is ythe king of tools and I am 100 percent confident that he knows what he's doind hahaha if he can make his own mini cnc machines I'm pretty sure he can make me a mini bench lathe!!! plus it would be fun to eee how he does

Post Extras:

don clement
Vendor (Clement Focuser)

Reged: 02/02/11

Loc: Running Springs, California

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Dick Jacobson]
#5639956 - 01/24/13 02:23 AM

Quote:

Don, I have a very similar 7x12 bandsaw (Wilton brand) but haven't used it very much because it breaks the blade almost every time I use it. The blade always breaks at the weld. I don't know whether it's just a bad weld, too little tension, too much tension, or what. I don't use any fluid. Any insight?

The Chicom 7x12 bandsaw brands are all very similar. Wiltron brand used to be USA made but like most everything else nowadays... What material are you cutting? What type of blade and tpi? Variable tpi or fixed? What blade speed/feed were you using? The 7x12 doesn't have the largest diameter tires so any blade is going to have a limited lifespan, however I get decent lifespan from the Lenox 4-6tpi bi-metal blade when cutting aluminum. I do cut dry in the vertical mode with a table in place using the Vortec cold air gun with no real problems so I don't believe cutting dry is the issue. Aluminum needs a very coarse blade to properly eject the swarf/chips. Too fine a blade (high tpi) with aluminum could cause blade breakage. Blade tension is also a factor. Blade guide alignment and tire alignment can also be factors.

Don

BTW that is a Cenco lab jack in the vise behind the round. The lab jack allows me to hold really short rounds in the bandsaw vise and get the most from my stock.

Post Extras:

jasonharris
sage

Reged: 09/16/06

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: whirlpoolm51]
#5639964 - 01/24/13 02:31 AM

You're knowledge of a lathe doesnt seem to be that great. If you had any amount of time on one I think you would have a better appreciation of what is involved, or you should if you have had to make precise parts.

Others have given you fairly good advise. If you really want one I would suggest you take your grandad up on his suggestion to get you one, pay him back even.

I would talk to him and be sure that what he is suggesting is something that would do what you want. I dont believe it is, building a lathe is something no one would undertake unless it was for the project itself. To build a lathe to use for work doesnt make sense if you can afford one.

Post Extras:

skinnyonce
super member

Reged: 03/23/11

Loc: ohio

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: jasonharris]
#5639981 - 01/24/13 03:09 AM

lets not forget ole Mr safety

Post Extras:

Mirzam
Post Laureate

Reged: 04/01/08

Loc: Lovettsville, VA

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: skinnyonce]
#5640176 - 01/24/13 08:24 AM

Actually, to build a proper lathe, you need....a lathe. (And a milling machine).

Okay you could buy a lot of already made lathe parts and not need the lathe to make them. But then you might as well buy a used lathe.

JimC

Post Extras:

Pinbout
Post Laureate

Reged: 02/22/10

Loc: Montclair

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: whirlpoolm51]
#5640242 - 01/24/13 09:20 AM

Quote:

I am 100 percent confident that he knows what he's doind hahaha if he can make his own mini cnc machines I'm pretty sure he can make me a mini bench lathe!!!

your absolutely right. I don't know why your getting all this push back on a dream you have. its great you can participate with someone that you totally look up to.

I got to try to make some things with my grandfather but that was when I was 12 [a long time ago]

Post Extras:

Dick Jacobson
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 12/22/06

Loc: Plymouth, Minnesota, USA

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: don clement]
#5640243 - 01/24/13 09:20 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Don, I have a very similar 7x12 bandsaw (Wilton brand) but haven't used it very much because it breaks the blade almost every time I use it. The blade always breaks at the weld. I don't know whether it's just a bad weld, too little tension, too much tension, or what. I don't use any fluid. Any insight?

The Chicom 7x12 bandsaw brands are all very similar. Wiltron brand used to be USA made but like most everything else nowadays... What material are you cutting? What type of blade and tpi? Variable tpi or fixed? What blade speed/feed were you using? The 7x12 doesn't have the largest diameter tires so any blade is going to have a limited lifespan, however I get decent lifespan from the Lenox 4-6tpi bi-metal blade when cutting aluminum. I do cut dry in the vertical mode with a table in place using the Vortec cold air gun with no real problems so I don't believe cutting dry is the issue. Aluminum needs a very coarse blade to properly eject the swarf/chips. Too fine a blade (high tpi) with aluminum could cause blade breakage. Blade tension is also a factor. Blade guide alignment and tire alignment can also be factors.

Don

BTW that is a Cenco lab jack in the vise behind the round. The lab jack allows me to hold really short rounds in the bandsaw vise and get the most from my stock.

There is a noticeable "thump" every time the weld passes through the guide rollers, even with a new blade. Gradually the thump gets more intense until the blade breaks. I cut both aluminum and mild steel, occasionally stainless. So far I've used only carbon steel blades, maybe I'll try a bi-metal. I've had my broken blades welded at a local shop and the welds don't look real neat so that could be part of the problem, but I've also broken a few brand-new blades from Grainger. I've played around with blade tension and that doesn't seem to help, use a slow feed rate (1 or 2 on the dial) and tightened the spring to lower the vertical force.

I also have one of the little $200 4x6 bandsaws and do almost all of my cutting with it. At least it never breaks blades, although they come loose sometimes!

Post Extras:

whirlpoolm51
professor emeritus

Reged: 01/05/12

Loc: pittsburgh,pa

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Dick Jacobson]
#5640371 - 01/24/13 10:36 AM

found a used sherline lathe and milling machine package at a local used tool shop for 950!!!!!!! I aw this package on ebay going for 1500 with both lathe and miller and tools !!! I am going to get it!!! - I really do thank you all for your help all of your ideas got the ball rolling!! ecspecially the bandsaw ideas !!! the bandsaw is really an all around good tool

Post Extras:

Geo.
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: jasonharris]
#5640452 - 01/24/13 11:15 AM

How expensive is it, really? I have a Smithy Chinese made three way (MIDAS 1220 XL). These are not the greatest mills in the world, but you can do a lot with them. I found it in the Want Ad Digest and had to travel 20 miles to pick it up. I paid $700. The mill sells new for about $2050 with the freight. The seller tossed in about $1000 (retail) value) in accessories. I was able to get it out of the seller's basement and into my compact SUV. It's been a lot of fun learning to use it and I've been able to make a little money with it. One benefit of dealing with Smithy is that do provide parts support.

Post Extras:

tim53
Postmaster

Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Geo.]
#5640596 - 01/24/13 12:43 PM

Old used machine tools are like old classic telescopes and antique cars - people want the new stuff so its not hard to find the old stuff in good condition for great prices. People collect classic scopes (or cars) because they like them, but they're still quite functional in the modern era, and since there are so many old ones in great condition still available, it doesn't make sense for someone to build their own or buy new unless that's specifically what they want (at much higher cost)

Tim

Post Extras:

Happy-Idiot
Stuck with it

Reged: 04/06/06

Loc: 3rd Rock

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: m. allan noah]
#5641218 - 01/24/13 06:36 PM

I only wish i could do some of the quality work in this video for example

Post Extras:

ZeroID
sage

Reged: 04/21/10

Loc: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Dick Jacobson]
#5641500 - 01/24/13 09:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Don, I have a very similar 7x12 bandsaw (Wilton brand) but haven't used it very much because it breaks the blade almost every time I use it. The blade always breaks at the weld. I don't know whether it's just a bad weld, too little tension, too much tension, or what. I don't use any fluid. Any insight?

The Chicom 7x12 bandsaw brands are all very similar. Wiltron brand used to be USA made but like most everything else nowadays... What material are you cutting? What type of blade and tpi? Variable tpi or fixed? What blade speed/feed were you using? The 7x12 doesn't have the largest diameter tires so any blade is going to have a limited lifespan, however I get decent lifespan from the Lenox 4-6tpi bi-metal blade when cutting aluminum. I do cut dry in the vertical mode with a table in place using the Vortec cold air gun with no real problems so I don't believe cutting dry is the issue. Aluminum needs a very coarse blade to properly eject the swarf/chips. Too fine a blade (high tpi) with aluminum could cause blade breakage. Blade tension is also a factor. Blade guide alignment and tire alignment can also be factors.

Don

BTW that is a Cenco lab jack in the vise behind the round. The lab jack allows me to hold really short rounds in the bandsaw vise and get the most from my stock.

There is a noticeable "thump" every time the weld passes through the guide rollers, even with a new blade. Gradually the thump gets more intense until the blade breaks. I cut both aluminum and mild steel, occasionally stainless. So far I've used only carbon steel blades, maybe I'll try a bi-metal. I've had my broken blades welded at a local shop and the welds don't look real neat so that could be part of the problem, but I've also broken a few brand-new blades from Grainger. I've played around with blade tension and that doesn't seem to help, use a slow feed rate (1 or 2 on the dial) and tightened the spring to lower the vertical force.

I also have one of the little $200 4x6 bandsaws and do almost all of my cutting with it. At least it never breaks blades, although they come loose sometimes!

There should be wee grinder on the blade welder and you should grind the weld flat BEFORE using it. Just needs a touch up either side of the blade to smooth it out so it doesn't jam and break going through the guides.

Post Extras:

John Carruthers
Skiprat

Reged: 02/02/07

Loc: Kent, UK

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: whirlpoolm51]
#5641937 - 01/25/13 04:50 AM

Quote:

found a used sherline lathe and milling machine package at a local used tool shop for 950!!!!!!! I aw this package on ebay going for 1500 with both lathe and miller and tools !!! I am going to get it!!! - I really do thank you all for your help all of your ideas got the ball rolling!! ecspecially the bandsaw ideas !!! the bandsaw is really an all around good tool

There is nothing you cannot then make. I would advise a short course in using machine tools and good workshop practice if only for the sake of safety.
These machines take no prisoners, especially the bandsaw (as used by butchers for slicing up animals).

Tubal Cain's books and Youtube articles are a good guide to safe work holding, and care of your tools.

Rule #1, NEVER LEAVE A CHUCK KEY IN THE CHUCK.

Rule #2, always turn the wokpiece over by hand to check it clears the machine BEFORE you switch on.

Rule #3, NEVER LEAVE A CHUCK KEY IN THE CHUCK.

Rule #4, Never brush swarf away with your hand, use a brush etc.

Rule #5, USE A FENCE AND A PUSH STICK WHEN POSSIBLE ON THE BANDSAW, KEEP HANDS CLEAR OF THE CUT SIDE OF THE BLADE (OR LOOSE FINGERS).

Please feel free to add your tips.......

Post Extras:

Mirzam
Post Laureate

Reged: 04/01/08

Loc: Lovettsville, VA

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: John Carruthers]
#5642044 - 01/25/13 07:50 AM

Always wear safety glasses. It's hard to look through a telescope with metal shards in your eyes.

JimC

Post Extras:

Dick Jacobson
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 12/22/06

Loc: Plymouth, Minnesota, USA

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Mirzam]
#5642103 - 01/25/13 08:41 AM

In seventh grade, my woodworking teacher said "Never wear a necktie when using a lathe".

Post Extras:

JohnH
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/04/05

Loc: Squamish BC Moved!!!!!

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: whirlpoolm51]
#5642374 - 01/25/13 11:25 AM

This guy (no pun intended) was a friend of Robin and between the two of them, they could come up with ways to shape metal using common tools most people would just slap their head and say "Why didn't I think of that?"

http://www.lautard.com/

Post Extras:

Ratchet
super member

Reged: 08/07/11

Loc: Tallahassee, FL

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: JohnH]
#5642407 - 01/25/13 11:46 AM

Don't forget about table saws. A triple chip carbide blade can cut non ferrous metals pretty precise assuming you have a good saw and fence. They make blades to cut steel, but I have never used them, so cannot comment on those.

Post Extras:

Geo.
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Ratchet]
#5642516 - 01/25/13 12:45 PM

I have a circ saw that is designed to cut steel. $29 on the bargain table at Tractor Supply! It's pretty effective, but goes thru the $15 Harbor Freight specialty blades pretty quickly. The blades are carbide tipped with a special tooth grind. After about half of them are chipped I cut them back with an angle grinder and get some more use from the blade. Freud blades are about $50.

A surgeon told me he sees more bandsaw than any other power tool injuries. It seems the shields go down when the blade is hidden in the work. So just stay scared.

No neckties, loose clothing or gloves, jewelry or long hair.
A friend who doesn't wear his wedding ring anymore after it got caught and tore off his finger. A club member lost a hand after the cuff of a glove got snatched in a chopsaw blade. They put it back on but it's not much use anymore. Classmate of a gal at the observatory's daughter was killed at Yale when her hair was caught in a mill.

I've had a few close calls myself - a Dior necktie sucked into a 911's cooling fan was the most freightening. Still wonder how I got out of that alive. So don't be as my dad liked to say: "too soon old, too late smart."

Post Extras:

Pinbout
Post Laureate

Reged: 02/22/10

Loc: Montclair

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Geo.]
#5642547 - 01/25/13 01:04 PM

how come every thread about tools gets side tracked about the horror stories? I'd rather see a different thread.

Post Extras:

don clement
Vendor (Clement Focuser)

Reged: 02/02/11

Loc: Running Springs, California

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: whirlpoolm51]
#5642653 - 01/25/13 01:58 PM

Quote:

found a used sherline lathe and milling machine package at a local used tool shop for 950!!!!!!! I aw this package on ebay going for 1500 with both lathe and miller and tools !!! I am going to get it!!! - I really do thank you all for your help all of your ideas got the ball rolling!! ecspecially the bandsaw ideas !!! the bandsaw is really an all around good tool

I found the book "Tabletop Machining" by Joe Martin very useful not just for table top sized machine tools.

http://www.amazon.com/Tabletop-Machining-Joe-Martin/dp/0966543300

After the drill press, a bandsaw was the next machine tool I purchased. BTW bandsaw doesn’t have to be a metal cutting bandsaw to cut aluminum. I used a 14” wood cutting bandsaw for many years to cut aluminum with excellent results. The trick to cutting aluminum was to use the proper blade such as the 4-6tpi Lenox blade and the right blade speed. (My 14” wood cutting bandsaw had 4 pulley speed change)

Don Clement

Post Extras:

obin robinson
sage

Reged: 10/25/12

Loc: League City, TX

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: tim53]
#5642665 - 01/25/13 02:07 PM

Quote:

Old used machine tools are like old classic telescopes and antique cars - people want the new stuff so its not hard to find the old stuff in good condition for great prices. People collect classic scopes (or cars) because they like them, but they're still quite functional in the modern era, and since there are so many old ones in great condition still available, it doesn't make sense for someone to build their own or buy new unless that's specifically what they want (at much higher cost)

Tim

I couldn't have said it better myself. Between Craigslist, eBay, local classified ads, estate sales, and garage sales there is no reason to buy a new lathe especially if you are a beginner. In many cases old Sears, Bridgeport, or Rockwell lathes from the 1960s or 1970s can accomplish everything you would need to do.

In many cases these things go up for sale under the condition of "local pick-up only" because of their size and weight. You might be able to score a $5,000 lathe for $500 if you have three strong friends and a pickup truck. Those deals are there and you just have to look for them.

To give you an idea of how good those old machines were I read an article a while back about some custom work done during WWII for the OSS (the agency before the CIA). One of the devices being inspected was apparently machined so perfectly that the inspector said it looked like a modern CNC machine did the cuts with laser precision. This work was done by hand, by eyeball, and with nothing more complex than a slide rule or pencil and paper to do all the calculations. Magnificent work can be done with old lathes. It just takes a careful skilled person to do the work.

obin

Post Extras:

lukasik
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/11/05

Loc: Lawrenceville, Georgia

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: JohnH]
#5642683 - 01/25/13 02:17 PM

+1 on this link to Guy Lautard!

I have all three of the Machinist's Bedside Readers. Entertaining if you like to make things, and lots of great ideas.

Regards,

Bob

Post Extras:

don clement
Vendor (Clement Focuser)

Reged: 02/02/11

Loc: Running Springs, California

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: obin robinson]
#5642713 - 01/25/13 02:29 PM

Quote:

In many cases these things go up for sale under the condition of "local pick-up only" because of their size and weight. You might be able to score a $5,000 lathe for $500 if you have three strong friends and a pickup truck. Those deals are there and you just have to look for them.

Speaking of local pick-up: I have a Rockford 13x30 lathe available for FREE providing that one load it up a haul it away. There is definitely assembly required as it is completely disassembled. I would also include a rotary 220V single-phase to 3-Phase converter I built to run the lathe’s 3Ph 3Hp motor. Also included: 12” T slot faceplate, 8” 3-jaw chuck and 10” 4-jaw independent chuck. PM me.

Don

Post Extras:

Howie Glatter
Vendor

Reged: 07/04/06

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: tim53]
#5643010 - 01/25/13 05:25 PM

> . . there are so many old ones in great condition still available . .

Most of the used machines I have seen at auctions were badly worn. Of course, if the machine was only used by a conscientious worker who kept it oiled, and cleaned abrasive residue from the slide ways,it will be o.k. But if you intend to do high precision work, you should bring a straight edge and dial indicator with you, and check the ways for wear and the spindle for run-out. Usually, if the ways are worn, it will be adjacent to the headstock.
If you know how to do it, all the important alignments should be checked.
On the other hand, a worn lathe can be completely re-conditioned by hand-scraping, a wonderful, almost lost art.

Post Extras:

don clement
Vendor (Clement Focuser)

Reged: 02/02/11

Loc: Running Springs, California

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Howie Glatter]
#5643121 - 01/25/13 06:34 PM

Quote:

> On the other hand, a worn lathe can be completely re-conditioned by hand-scraping, a wonderful, almost lost art.

Hand scraping certainly falls under this thread title about shaping metal without milling or using lathe.

BTW "Machine Tool Reconditioning and Applications of Hand Scraping" by Edward F. Connelly is an excellent reference.
http://www.amazon.com/Machine-Tool-Reconditioning-Applications-Scraping/dp/B0... I am glad to have a copy before it went out of print. IMO hand scraping is on par with hand figuring a telescope mirror.

Don Clement

Post Extras:

Tavi
member

Reged: 10/11/09

Loc: Romania, EU

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: don clement]
#5643254 - 01/25/13 07:54 PM

There is my home made small milling machine:

I got the drilling press support and the milling table from a second-hand market, very cheap. The vice and the drilling hand machine was buyed new like the various milling bits you can see near in the little can. I used this to machine a lot of my ATM's part, including thick 12mm Alloy. Also, I use an accu drill, a jigsaw, angular grinder, files etc. For some parts wich a lathe or a mill is needed, I went to a friend's mechanical shop who help me a lot.

For cutting the alloy plate I used a jigsaw atached to a DIY radial tool wich guide it around a center pin:

This is my cassegrain mirror cell after cutting:

And here the cell prepared to assembling phase:

I used the mini-mill to make the disc round, drillpress to make holes, jigsaw to cut and files to finish.

Post Extras:

JohnH
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/04/05

Loc: Squamish BC Moved!!!!!

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Tavi]
#5643318 - 01/25/13 08:37 PM

I also forgot Gary Wolanski

http://members.shaw.ca/gargwolanski/

I have had a chance to speak with him, as he his a semi-legendary figure in ATM circles in BC, Canada, and was a frequent entry in optical and construction categories at many star parties.

Post Extras:

whirlpoolm51
professor emeritus

Reged: 01/05/12

Loc: pittsburgh,pa

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: obin robinson]
#5643532 - 01/25/13 10:59 PM

believe me!! between seeing what has happened to my father and many friends i have worked with i am plenty cautious when it comes to working with power tools hahahahah i do electrical work for a living and the owrst i have ever been hurt is when i wasnt paying attention and was in a hurry and i accidently stuck my thmb on the hot lug of a 150 amp panel!!...let me tell you , i had the taste of metal in my mouth for the next 3 days!!

So the moral of this story is.....DONT BE STUPID AND PAY ATTENTION hahahahaha

table saws , lathes , bench grinders , drill presses etc etc no matter what , if you get carless and try to rush you are goign to get hurt , and between the power of a lathe and even a bench grinder , that is enough to remove all 10 fingers from your precious little hands hahaha

So when it comes to saftey im pretty positive i am taking all precations!!!

Post Extras:

Geo.
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: whirlpoolm51]
#5644251 - 01/26/13 11:42 AM

I grew up on a farm around machinery (still one of the most dangerous workplaces) and dad never stopped with the dire warnings. OTOH, the wife took an adult ed course entitled "Ladies Night Out With Power Tools," which emphasised respect not fear of tools.

Post Extras:

Tavi
member

Reged: 10/11/09

Loc: Romania, EU

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Geo.]
#5645605 - 01/27/13 08:29 AM

Of course, we have "power tools" the ladies should never fear... at least after the first night!!

Post Extras:

ccaissie
sage

Reged: 09/13/10

Loc: Whitefield, Maine

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Tavi]
#5648727 - 01/28/13 05:08 PM

Check this source out.
http://gingerybooks.com/
He's not afraid to use anything to make anything.

Post Extras:

Geo.
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: skinnyonce]
#5650846 - 01/29/13 06:01 PM

Quote:

lets not forget ole Mr safety

And Off. Just read that in the history of human death half were by mosquitos.

Post Extras:

tim53
Postmaster

Reged: 12/17/04

Loc: Highland Park, CA

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Geo.]
#5650960 - 01/29/13 07:07 PM

That does it, I'm NEVER going to use mosquitos to make telescope components!

-Tim.

Post Extras:

don clement
Vendor (Clement Focuser)

Reged: 02/02/11

Loc: Running Springs, California

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: tim53]
#5651128 - 01/29/13 08:40 PM

Do you ATMs think grinding mirrors is safer than shaping metal with machine tools? Bob Cox died from just that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Cox

Don Clement

Post Extras:

Gordon Rayner
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 03/24/07

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: don clement]
#5651266 - 01/29/13 10:09 PM

As I recall, Robert Cox was breathing fine glass particles thrown into the air with fine coolant spray from a lens curve generator, or a Blanchard grinder used to make flat glass surfaces.I visited an Orange County, Calif shop in the 1970's. Some presumably low wage, possibly undocumented workers were in a room with some, but inadequate, ventilation or filtering. I believe that this was before OSHA, or about at its beginning. The Blanchards or Strasbaughs were in action, flattening glass. An odor of kerosene and a thin fog of it(?), and probably some additives or water (?) made me want to leave.

I have wondered about the fate of those workers, in light of the fate of Robert Cox. Remember when he called his identical twin to the stage at RTMC? " Yes, nature can make the same mistake twice", he said.

I wonder if his estate sued McDonnel Douglas , Inc. ?

Post Extras:

Geo.
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 10/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Gordon Rayner]
#5653962 - 01/31/13 09:58 AM

Quote:

I wonder if his estate sued McDonnel Douglas , Inc. ?

Pretty sure all states have had worker's compensation laws for the last century. Comp greatly restricts an employee's legal redress in the event of injury or death related to employment. You have to find someone who's not the employer who has a duty of care, like the asbestos producers who failed to disclose to manufacturers of the hazardous nature of their product. Exceptions are that employers in construction can be sued if they fail to comply with OSHA requirements and an injury or death results, seamen employed on US flag vessels and railroad workers right are covered by federal law, which permit suits.

Post Extras:

don clement
Vendor (Clement Focuser)

Reged: 02/02/11

Loc: Running Springs, California

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Geo.]
#5654637 - 01/31/13 04:31 PM

OMG OSHA is going to have a cow. Someone put a through hole in end my pneumatic 5C closer right over the WARNING lable.

Post Extras:

Gordon Rayner
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 03/24/07

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: don clement]
#5657263 - 02/01/13 10:23 PM

We are getting away from the op's title, but this is interesting.

Why did you go pneumatic, instead of the usual lever arm collet closer? Maximum speed for production?

Related (?): I there now any speedy way to make tool changes on a Bridgeport type vertical milling machine, without climbing onto a stepstool, R&R the drawbar threads, ..., without spending the $$$$ which I recall were required the last time I looked ? Pneumatics?

Post Extras:

StarStuff1
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 04/01/07

Loc: South of the Mason-Dixon Line

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Gordon Rayner]
#5657315 - 02/01/13 10:49 PM

Gordon ???????

Post Extras:

don clement
Vendor (Clement Focuser)

Reged: 02/02/11

Loc: Running Springs, California

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Gordon Rayner]
#5658769 - 02/02/13 07:33 PM

Quote:

Why did you go pneumatic, instead of the usual lever arm collet closer? Maximum speed for production?

I posted the pneumatic closer because of the posts about OSHA on this thread. Royal didn’t sell the pneumatic closer with a through hole because they claimed OSHA safety requirements. That is strange because the lever closer that the pneumatic closer replaced had a through hole. What was Royal thinking? Anyhow I found out before the pneumatic closer was purchased that a through hole was easily made in the back plate. The reasons I went to the pneumatic over the lever were 1) it was easier to remove the pneumatic closer by using air quick disconnects and just pulling it out from the rear. Royal supplied a D1-4 nose which holds the 5C collets which eliminated have to knock the Morse 5 to 5C adapter out when mounting other D1-4 chucks. 2) I was able to repeatedly vary the pulling force on the 5C collet of the pneumatic closer by simply adjusting the differential pressure valve controlling the dual-action pneumatic closer actuator. This was an important feature for holding thin walled parts without distorting the part. 3) The pneumatic closer has less vibration than the lever closer it replaced.

Quote:

Related (?): Is there now any speedy way to make tool changes on a Bridgeport type vertical milling machine, without climbing onto a stepstool, R&R the drawbar threads, ..., without spending the $$$$ which I recall were required the last time I looked ? Pneumatics?

I have both a Tormach CNC mill and a Rockwell vertical manual mill. http://www.lathes.co.uk/rockwellmillers/ Both have R8 spindles. I use the Tormach TTS tooling system http://www.tormach.com/product_tts2.html that works extremely well on both. On the Tormach CNC mill I installed a beta version of the Tormach pneumatic power draw bar (PDB) to quickly change tools. http://www.tormach.com/products_power_drawbar.html For me the PDB does 90% of what an automatic tool changer (ATC) does for my prototype and limited production work. The PDB was one of my best investments allowing me to change the way I do CNC work. The manual draw bar is time consuming when changing tools so in the past I programmed my CNC work so that all parts in a run would be machined then the tool changed. With the PDB and footswitch I can easily and quickly change tools. Now I program a CNC run to use many tool changes and then change the part.

Don Clement

Post Extras:

whirlpoolm51
professor emeritus

Reged: 01/05/12

Loc: pittsburgh,pa

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: don clement]
#5658834 - 02/02/13 08:06 PM

I got my lathe today!!!! and what a wonderful tool might i say!! I also purchased a milling attatchment for it so now i have a 2 in 1 machine!!! lathe and milling machine!! thats my set up for now until i get the sherline 4000 mill

I also hinted to the wife when we were at harbor freight about the large horizontal/vertical metal cutting bandsaw!!! only 250 for the 4" x 6" model!!! the 1 hp 7x12" hydrolic feeed one sitting right next to it is mighty tempting thought but the price isnt!!! hahaha

Post Extras:

Pinbout
Post Laureate

Reged: 02/22/10

Loc: Montclair

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: whirlpoolm51]
#5658856 - 02/02/13 08:17 PM

do they make bimetal blades that fit the 4x6, I know the 7x12 will take the .035 thk bimetal blade.

Post Extras:

don clement
Vendor (Clement Focuser)

Reged: 02/02/11

Loc: Running Springs, California

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: Pinbout]
#5658894 - 02/02/13 08:42 PM

Quote:

do they make bimetal blades that fit the 4x6, I know the 7x12 will take the .035 thk bimetal blade.

I use a Starrett 14-18tpi bi-metal blade cat no 99188-05-04-1/2 on my 4x6 bandsaw.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/64-5-5-4-5-x-1-2-x14-18-M42-Bimetal-Band-Saw-Blade-/1... 14-18 pitch is too fine for Aluminum. Works really well on SS though.

Don Clement

Post Extras:

Dick Jacobson
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 12/22/06

Loc: Plymouth, Minnesota, USA

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: whirlpoolm51]
#5659614 - 02/03/13 09:43 AM

Quote:

I also hinted to the wife when we were at harbor freight about the large horizontal/vertical metal cutting bandsaw!!! only 250 for the 4" x 6" model!!! the 1 hp 7x12" hydrolic feeed one sitting right next to it is mighty tempting thought but the price isnt!!! hahaha

The 4x6 bandsaw is a great tool at a reasonable price, I've owned one for at least 10 years and use it constantly. More recently I purchased a 7x12 but have had a lot of trouble with it breaking blades (see earlier in this topic).

Post Extras:

Pinbout
Post Laureate

Reged: 02/22/10

Loc: Montclair

Re: Shaping metal without milling or using lathe??? new

[Re: don clement]
#5659709 - 02/03/13 10:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:

do they make bimetal blades that fit the 4x6, I know the 7x12 will take the .035 thk bimetal blade.

I use a Starrett 14-18tpi bi-metal blade cat no 99188-05-04-1/2 on my 4x6 bandsaw.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/64-5-5-4-5-x-1-2-x14-18-M42-Bimetal-Band-Saw-Blade-/1... 14-18 pitch is too fine for Aluminum. Works really well on SS though.

Don Clement

gracias

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