Shadowfax
member
Reged: 10/24/07
Posts: 60
Loc: Arkansas Ozarks
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The sky was beautiful here in the Ozarks last night, so I thought I would try to work out this Intelliscope COL procedure. For now, until I get everything sorted out, I've been setting up on the back deck where views are limited. I have clear views to the west and southwest as well as directly overhead and have been using Arcturus and Deneb or Antares as alignment stars.
The procedure has been discouraging for several reasons. I can't see anything in the recommended alignment eyepiece (10mm plossl) without removing my glasses. That's where the trouble begins, as I can use the finderscope better with them (as well as seeing my way around). So, its glasses off, set them down as it takes both hands to manipulate the telescope controls and COL controller, find them in the dark so I can focus on the controller (or anything else), glasses back off to use the 10mm eyepiece to center the first alignment star, back on to find my way around and locate the second star in the RACI finder (not that easy in itself), glasses off and laid down to center the second star in the eyepiece... on and on. Then, because all this must be accomplished in a reasonably short time period if you hope to have acceptable accuracy, keeping the second star centered while getting the controller and hitting "enter".......and the warp factor flashes on the out-of-focus screen (glasses off) for one second and is gone, with no way that I know of to display that number again.
So, I don't know what I've got, but at this point, I think I'm going to have to get 1) a high-power eyepiece that has better eye relief, and 2) a Telrad or RDF to speed up the process of finding the appropriate alignment stars.
I have no idea what the warp factor was, but amazingly, after switching to the 25mm eyepiece, I was able to find the Lagoon nebula. It was a small, dim, featureless cotton ball, even in the 10mm eyepiece. When I stood back and looked at the telescope, I realized that the top rail of my back deck was right in front of the telescope tube, blocking a considerable portion of the light!!!
Anyway, due to budget constraints, I have time to think this all over.
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Greg
Orion 8XTi
Canon 10x30IS
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jmartin
newbie
Reged: 08/25/08
Posts: 4
Loc: Corpus Christi, TX
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I usually use my 25mm eyepiece to align the col on my 8XTi. As long as your careful it can get pretty close. If you need a better high power eye piece let me recommend a TMB planetary. I have the 8mm and it is an exceptional eyepiece for the money. I paid 59.00 at Astronomics for it.
The problem I had with the alignment was i didn't make sure during setup that the tube was set to vertical, once I realized that and set vertical with the screw stop, I haven't had a problem with the COL.
Hope this helps
Joe
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'76 8" Cave Classical Cassegrain
Orion 8" XTI Dob
CCAS's 12.5" f=5.83 Dob
10" Classic LX200
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smasraum
sage
Reged: 01/13/08
Posts: 492
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It sounds like you need one of those straps that folks use on sunglasses and reading glasses that allows them to hang around your neck
Glasses neck strap
A better EP would probably help a lot too. Maybe something like a hyperion so you have a wide field of view.
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Steve
Houston (Friendswood), TX
 Space Center Houston
8" Zhumell Dob - Woo Hoo!!
Celestron C102 f/5 - Thanks Tim!
21mm, 13mm Hyperion
2.5x TV Powermate
Canon Rebel XT
Nikon 7x35
Bushnell 10x50
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paul hart
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 911
Loc: Lawn Guyland, New Yawk, Earth
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Hi Greg,
I have the same glasses on, glasses off problem you do and it's a real pain. The neck strap is a good idea. I would also use the 25mm ep at first at least until you get another ep.
OK on the lagoon, it does show much better when you aren't looking at it through a 2 x 4. 
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Paul
Long Island, New York
Orion Starmax 127 Mak
TScope 14" f/4.7 dob w/ F80 finder
10" f/4.8 dob
Orion 10x50 Ultraview Binoculars
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Gunner
sage
Reged: 06/20/06
Posts: 344
Loc: Bellville,Texas
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It does require a few times out with the COL to get the procedure down pat.
Usually I use a 24mm pan to get the scope within the area, then I switch out to the 8mm Stratus to get the star centered, usually I get a warp number of 0.4 or better, but I will take 0.6 in a pinch, and there are nights that 0.6 -0.5 is as good as it gets, why I don't know.
Just keep working with it and it will become second nature, in fact, I can do a two star alignment with the XTi faster than I can do a two star alignment with the Atlas GO-TO.
Allen
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Orion 8" Reflector Flocked
Orion XT12i w/ Moonlite Cr-2 and Flocked
Orion Atlas EQ-G mount
Orion 190mm Mak-Newt ( on order )
Orion 80mm ED APO ( on order )
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Hrundi
super member
Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 109
Loc: Estonia
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If you can, learn to keep your glasses on your brow. Might help a bit.
Ocular management 101 
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AstroRealtor
professor emeritus
Reged: 03/26/08
Posts: 538
Loc: Terra Firma
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Glasses management is a topic that has my attention. I'm going to have to design something to solve this problem as the on and off method is the only one that allows me to take full advantage of the telescope's capabilities. The strap idea will not work because of the odd positions you have to get into in the course of a nights observations.
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Clear Skies, Jim
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Discovering: Messier objects, Deep sky treasures, NGCs, Double stars, & Nebulae of all kinds.
Televue 85 "Polaris" Mount
Custom Crafted Newtonian Dob 8" f7 w/Feathertouch
Celestron Cometron Reflector 114mm f8
Zeiss Diafun 8 X 30 Binos
Zeiss 10 X 56 Binos
 Aldrich Astronomical Society
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Joe Lalumia
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/24/07
Posts: 2537
Loc: Rockwall, Texas, USA
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I have the XT10i-- here is a picture showing the Telrad mounted in the middle--
www.flickr.com/boatman1
Good advice on using a 25mm to align-- later when you goto an object and center it you can press and hold the Function key to refine the warp factor-- I have gotten as low as .1 worp factors syncing using the function key.
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LX90 8" LNT, SV Nighthawk & TelePOD, SV 80/9D & M4 mount, ETX 90, Orion XT10i, 20x80 binoculars, SV-BV3s.
"The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax." - Albert Einstein
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Hrundi
super member
Reged: 02/06/08
Posts: 109
Loc: Estonia
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Quote:
Glasses management is a topic that has my attention. I'm going to have to design something to solve this problem as the on and off method is the only one that allows me to take full advantage of the telescope's capabilities. The strap idea will not work because of the odd positions you have to get into in the course of a nights observations.
Try the brow option then. Simply take the glasses, push them above the eyebrows while still keeping the hooks around the ears.
That's how I do it, and it works brilliantly, allowing me to put them on whenever I need to
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biggles
super member
Reged: 10/12/06
Posts: 103
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 Hi Shadowfax, alighnment stars not in the eyepiece eh?..been there to many times myself!!
I sloved the problem using a laser pointer and alighn my scope in less that two mins!!...if you are interested I will re-post with full (although dead simple procedure) explanation of how to do it and rid yourself of this problem.  
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Bowmoreman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 2979
Loc: Bolton, MA
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Same problems for me here! My "glasses management" approach during alignment is to either:
a) push them DOWN to the end of my nose, while still hooked on my ears, which depending on how elevated the star I'm sighting is may/may not work, or
b) I just take em off and hold one of the ear-pieces in my mouth to keep em close - I find this is better than the strap (which I tried) because the strap means their more likely to bump into things - and $500 polycarbonate multi-focals get expense when you bump/scratch them all the time.
Seriously though, best thing I did for alignment was the GLP carefully aligned to the scope. I tightly align it to the scope on Polaris (which mostly doesn't move), and then move down my EP focal lengths until I'm at my 5mm illuminated reticle.
Then, the GLP is tightly aligned.
Next step, align the 7x50 RACI with the scope and GLP.
Then, for aligning the COL stars, I can just start with my finder EP (in my case my 13 Ethos), and then if I want a really good alignment, move up to my 5mm IR EP...
Doing it this way minimizes the time/hassle of the glasses off/on route.
If I do the above carefully, it takes very little time and consistently yields WF's around +/0 0.2
HTH
clear enoughs skies
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Dave
Ustream
YLive
XT10i, RTP, CGE, R200CF, TMB80SS
31T5, 22T4, 13Ethos, 8Ethos, TV 3-6 Zoom; Paracorr
MallincamColorHyperPlus,SBIG STV&237A;CanonRebel Xti
WilderSkiesObservatory(BYO #90)
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Taqyon
sage
Reged: 06/17/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Cape Town, South Africa
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Contact Lenses!
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Hein du Plessis
10" Black Diamond Skywatcher Collapsible Dobsonian
Celestron NexImage Webcam
7mm SWA 58° Plössl
My Jupiter Pictures|My Company
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xfile101
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/08/07
Posts: 738
Loc: Ocean Gate, NJ
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Quote:
Then, because all this must be accomplished in a reasonably short time period if you hope to have acceptable accuracy
This is not entirely correct. I have actually went 2 minutes (timed it) between alignment stars and still had warps below .3 I would wager that I could probably go more but I haven't tried. Also, I have aligned with just about every possible combination of stars (spring and summer, haven't done fall and winter yet) and have not gotten worse warps than .5. The other night I aligned with Altair and Vega, 2 very close stars and my warp was .4 and every object I programmed into the COL was dead center (or very close to center) of the 25mm. Now the difference is I use a 7.5mm to align with then use the 25mm to find the objects. It also helps to defocus the alignment stars so they are nice and big and easier to center in the EP. So here's my routine on how I start the night. Get the scope out early to cool down, I will on occassion, check collimation but not every night (the XT8I seems to hold this pretty darn well). Before I turn the COL on I decide which stars I'm going to align to, for demonstration lets say I'm using Arcturus and Polaris (incidently when using Polaris as the second star is when I get a lot of 0.0 warps). Then I get Arcturus in the finder and make sure it's in the EP. Note: I haven't turned the COL on yet. Then I set the scope to vertical, point being here is all I have to do is move the scope down to Arcturus as I have the azimuth already set on Arcturus. Now I fire up the COL. Hit enter when it tells me to set the scope vertical and navigate to Arcturus on the COL. Then I move the scope to the star, center it and hit enter. Then I begin a slow scan over to Polaris. Once it's in the field I navigate to Polaris on the COL, now back to the scope and center the star and enter it in the COL. Now I'm done, I look to see what my warp is but in all honesty, I don't panic unless it's a really screwed up number like 46 (yes, I have gotten warps like this which usually means the encoder disk is slipping). Now, to test the alignment. I punch in a very familiar and bright object that I know exactly where it is, lately this has been, M57. Push the scope until I get to 0,0 and make sure M57 is there, if it's not, there's a problem. Thank goodness there hasn't been for some time and I like it like that! As for the glasses, I can't help much there except what you have already said about different EP's. Also, a poster here had a problem with his COL getting weird warp factors, whereas before it was fine. Come to find out his was setting up on his deck, and he usually was in the driveway. Anyway, the deck boards would give ever so little as he moved around the scope and this was the problem with his COL getting strange readings. I mention this because you stated you set up on your deck so you may want to move to firmer ground. In any event, keep us all up to speed and if you run into any problems, trust me, the people here can and WILL help a ton!
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Orion XT8I
Celestron 114EQ Firstscope
Meade 70mm
Astroscan
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pdfermat
super member
Reged: 11/12/07
Posts: 141
Loc: Wisconsin
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Hi Greg. I second the "brow method" w/r to glasses. I keep mine on and flip them up (actually above my brow - to the top of my head) just before I look into the ep.
Also - I've had the best luck with the COL when I use Polaris as my 2nd alignment star. I like Polaris as my second since it is always in the same spot, and I know there's no mistaking it in the ep - with it's dim companion right next to it. Another thing I do is pick a third star near where I want to observe and add it to the alignment. For example, last night I wanted to look at a bunch of galaxies around Draco, so after doing my 2 star alignment, I chose a double in Draco from the COL, navigated to it, centered it in my ep field and pressed FCN ENTER ENTER. This kind of fine tunes the COL to the area you are searching in.
Don't get discouraged - we'll be here for you. That COL will be able to help you zip to so many things once you get the hang of it.
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Pat
Orion XT8i
TV 32mm, 20mm, 15mm Plossls
9mm Planetary
Orion Shorty-Plus Barlow
DGM NPB Filter
Lumicon Deep Sky Filter
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Shawn H
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 05/16/07
Posts: 1071
Loc: Southern France 43°56'N-4°50'E
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Greg
I had a good laugh reading your thread! Ive been doing exactley the same thing for 4 years since I bought my xt10i! Bifocals would help! but I find em too ugly! I'm already ugly enough! Anyway after a little practise you get the star aligning thing down pact! I velcroed a plastic paper holder right next to the focuser for my print out star charts! Even then when I observe with my glasses, I have to take em off to look at my charts! A real pain in the butt for us bad eyesight old folks this astronomy hobby!  Shawn
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xt10i with Telrad & feather touch focuser & huge Boston Red Sox decal
Starblast
15x70 Celestron Skymasters
35Stratus
27Pan
13 Ethos
8 Ethos
Orion ultrablock
Astronomik OIII
Tele Vue 2x barlow
Antares 1.6x barlow (2")
CATSEYE collimation tools
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calibos
sage
Reged: 11/18/07
Posts: 399
Loc: Ireland
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TBH, I'd skip purchasing the Telrad and go straight to a scope mounted GLP. Since getting a GLP I have only used the Telrad once to hand track the ISS while trying to image it.
During intital install off the GLP I lined up Polaris in a 5mm Hyperion with the aid of the finderscope. Fine tuned the finderscope while I was at it. Then adjusted the GLP till I could see the beam in the finderscope. Continued to adjust the GLP till the end of the beam was under the crosshairs. Then checked my 5mm EP and the tip of the beam was just a little off centre in the FOV. Few more tiny adjustments and I had it dead centre in the 5mm.
Now every session I might have to adjust the finderscope but the GLP hasn't gone out of alignment by even a mm.
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Keith D.
Orion SkyQuest XT12i
Moonlite CR Focusser with Rigel motofocus
Brian Reed 'RoundTable' Equatorial Platform
Howie Glatter Holograhic Collimator and Blug
Baader Hyperion 21/32mm,17mm,13mm,8mm,5mm,3.5mm EP
TS 15x70 Binoculars
[img]http://7timer.y234.cn/exe/apanel.php?country=EI&adm=EI31&site=92&en[/img]
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Bill Weir
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 879
Loc: Metchosin (Victoria), Canada
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Quote:
The strap idea will not work because of the odd positions you have to get into in the course of a nights observations.
I beg to differ, it works very well and has with me for years. I fully accepted it after stepping on my glasses once. Try it for awhile and you will probably find it works rather well. I just keep the strap in my eyepiece case and put it on when I start.
Bill
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6'' Orion SkyQuest
12.5'' f/5 Custom Truss Dob
William Optics 80mm ZenithStar II ED Doublet
f/5 25" newtonian on a giant GEM, any time I want
Observing sessions grand total for 2007, 171.
So far in 2008, 111
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Bob Griffiths
Post Laureate
Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 4120
Loc: Frederick Maryland
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I store a strap for my eyeglasses on the diagonal of the telescope I keep in the observatory...and have a large sign on the door to remind me to take the strap off then exit the observatory...
BUT about a month ago I was checking out 2 of my scopes side by side in the backyard.. I had one chair..2 scopes and when I removed my glasses I sat them on the chair.
You know the result.... I then .then went to the second scope and naturally sat down...$584.00 later I have another pair of glasses and a second strap that I now keep with inside my EP case..
.
Bob G
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CPC1100
Nexstar 8i + GPS & Rays Brackets
Denk S1 power switch
Orion 100 mm Refractor
Meade LXD 55 ...AR-5 127 mm Refractor
Exploradome Observatory S.I.E. (Smiling Irish Eyes)
39*21'03" N
77*28'12" W
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Shadowfax
member
Reged: 10/24/07
Posts: 60
Loc: Arkansas Ozarks
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Thanks to all who responded with suggestions and sympathy. I feel better knowing I'm not the only one struggling with this.
This afternoon I ordered a multi-reticle finder (the all-metal one with 4 reticles, 7 brightness levels, etc, that I see under several different brand names), a combination sight tube/Cheshire to improve the collimation, and a 6mm wide-angle, long eye relief eyepiece (same as Orion Expanse, I believe) from Agena Astro... they confirmed it's all shipped, so... hopefully some relief is on the way.
I presume the references to "GLP" mean green laser pointer... I've seen them, but didn't know enough, so went with the MRF.
Does anyone know if there's a way to re-display the warp factor?
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Greg
Orion 8XTi
Canon 10x30IS
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RussL
Music Maker
Reged: 03/18/08
Posts: 1575
Loc: Cayce, SC
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Greg, here's what I do with my glasses. I take them off, but never set them down. If I hold one temple between my second and third fingers and let it drop down all the way between them, I can then rotate my glasses so that they lay upside down against the back of my hand. That way I can use the fingers on that hand.
Aw, I wish you SEE what I'm talking about. Sounds too complicated when I try to write it out. Any way, the point is to try to hold your glasses and use your fingers, too. The idea is to hold the temple and rotate your glasses over onto the back of your hand to get them out of the way. It works. Try it. 
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--Russell
"Akita mani yo." Observe everything as you walk. (--Lakota)
Celestron Celestar 8 Standard SCT, f10
Celestron 80mm Wide View ref., f5
Criterion RV-6 Dynascope, Newt., f8, (c. 1962)
Sears Discoverer 60mm ref., f7, (c. 1973)
Celestron Ultima DX 10x50, 6.5 TFOV
Tasco 7x35 wide
Several mediocre eyepieces
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Wildthing
super member
Reged: 11/07/07
Posts: 108
Loc: Muncie, IN
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This idea might sound stupid but I have the same problem. I have considered taking one of my old pair of glasses and removing the right lens out of the frame so I can view through my eyepieces with my right eye. I will then have the left lens in the frame to enable me to read with. I have not tried it yet but I think it might work.
Clear Skies, Donnie Garrett / Muncie, IN
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Clear Skies, Donnie / Muncie, IN
Equipment:
Orion 80ED
Orion 100mm f/6 Achro
Stellarvue SV-102ED
Vixen R130sf Reflector
XT8i Orion IntelliScope
Celestron C-6 SCT
Mounts:
TV Gibralter with Sky Tour, Celestron CG5-GT,
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CaptianX
member
Reged: 08/27/08
Posts: 32
Loc: Nova Scotia
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A barlow lens would be a good thing for you to have, it would allow you use the 25mm eyepiece with increased magnification, without sacrificing eye relief. This would be useful both for alignment and observation. I prefer to leave my glasses on, but that limits my choice of eyepieces.
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Allan
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Orion XT10 Intelliscope
Pentax PF80ED
homemade computer controlled 5" f/8 Newtonian
32mm Orion q70
25mm Plössl
8-24mm Pentax zoom
5mm Celestron X-cel
25mm Kellner
2" 3x barlow, 1.25" 2x barlow
rarely used 10mm Plössl and assorted kellners
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Skip
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/23/08
Posts: 805
Loc: Austin, Texas, USA
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Quote:
Good advice on using a 25mm to align-- later when you goto an object and center it you can press and hold the Function key to refine the warp factor-- I have gotten as low as .1 worp factors syncing using the function key.
Joe, this is not a procedure I can find in my manual. Tell me more about it. I've been having trouble getting good warp factors and any procedure I can use to imporve them, I'm interested. Thanks.
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Skip
Celestron NexStar 6SE (Small Caliber)
Orion SkyQuest XT10i Intelliscope (Howitzer)
2 25mm Plossls; 24mm & 13mm Hyperions; 10mm Plossl; 6mm BO/TMB; 2X Barlow
Telrad + 4" Riser
7Ah PowerTank
Starbound Observing Chair
“It’s impossible to make things foolproof because fools are so ingenious.” (Unknown)
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epee
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/30/06
Posts: 572
Loc: Suh-van-nuh, Jaw-juh
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Skip, that procedure is in the manual but easily overlooked (see 'realignment fuction' on page 21). Note that the object you are realigning to must only be in the object locator's data base (which of course it will be if that is how you found it in the first place) not necessarily one of the stars on the initial alignment charts.
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Jim Girardeau
Orion XT12 Intelliscope
Celestron 11X80mm binoculars
Edited by epee (08/28/08 07:09 PM)
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Achernar
Post Laureate
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 3680
Loc: Alabama, USA
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I do the same thing when I initialize my digital setting circles. It usually gives an accurate enough alignment for me to either get objects in the field of a medium or even a high power eyepiece. If not, it's usually just outside the field of view. Polaris is a goof proof reference point.
Taras
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10-inch F/4.5 Discovery Dob
6-inch F/8 Homebuilt Dob
4 1/4-inch F/4 Homebuilt reflector
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