Karthik
member
Reged: 11/07/08
Posts: 36
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Saw this in the news today ... I live close to an airport, that is used by lot of small planes , should i avoid using a laser pointer ?
http://www.gadling.com/2009/11/03/two-years-in-jail-for-pointing-a-laser-at-a-plane/
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RonBurgundy
sage
Reged: 06/16/09
Posts: 252
Loc: Philadelphia
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Gee wiz... Truth be told, if the airport has a control tower, I would advise asking them about the typical nighttime approach to the airport. If the tower is closed at night, or it is a non-towered airport, I'm not sure. I would hold off on that laser for now. But, like I said, I'm sure one of the air traffic controllers would be more than happy to address your issue.
The laser pointer is by no means illegal. However, from the article, it's clear that there are some serious implications for pranksters who think it's fun to blind pilots. With that being said, I still think that the chances of getting a plane with your laser are pretty small. Can you hear the engines before the airplane flies overhead? Perhaps you can just turn your laser off until the airplane passes safely... Keep us updated on this one, and good luck!
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Kipp Ginsburg
8" LX200-ACF
Orion 120mm F/5.0 Piggybacked Refractor
Meade UWA Set [4.7mm-30mm]
DSI-II
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JayinUT
I'm not Sleepy
Reged: 09/19/08
Posts: 941
Loc: Utah
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Contact your local FFA office and ask if you can use it. My school where I teach is in the flight plan for approaching and landing jets for Salt Lake International. I checked with the FFA and was informed that I am not to use a laser at the school as a building behind the school that was part of the 2002 Olympic games is a landmark for approach and I could interfere with the pilot. I suspected this but wanted to confirm it prior to using a laser to point out constellations to my students.
Out at the dark sites there is no concern about using them there per the FFA agent I talked to, but it is best to always check as to ensure your not pointing out a constellation in the direct flight plan of a plane. It is my understanding that most commercial airlines use pre-arrange flight plans that the FFA keeps them on. So give em a call, they were informative and actually grateful that I called.
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Jay in Utah
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Location: Lat: 40.514N Long: -112.032W
Mortal as I am, I know that I am born for a day. But when I follow at my pleasure the serried multitude of the stars in their circular course, my feet no longer touch the earth.
— Ptolemy, c.150 AD
My Blog
Edited by JayinUT (11/04/09 03:40 PM)
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Achernar
Postmaster
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 5024
Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
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Yes, if there's any chance you'll interfere with a passing aircraft. Lasing a pilot will result in years of time behind bars if you're caught.
Taras
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15-inch F/4.5 Dob under construction
10-inch F/4.5 Discovery Dob
6-inch F/8 Homebuilt Dob
4 1/4-inch F/4 Homebuilt reflector
A whole bunch of eyepieces, filters and other accessories....
Two curious cats
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Feidb
super member
Reged: 10/09/09
Posts: 124
Loc: Nevada
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I usually observe within the Eastern approach pattern for McCarran Airport in Las Vegas. I use a green laser pointer. However, I am always careful where I aim it and not only do I watch out for planes, but I am also mindful of anyone nearby trying to image. I've never had a problem with it. A little common sense and courtesy goes a long way to keep one out of the pokie.
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Present gear:
16" Meade LightBridge
Meade 50mm straight through-finder
Lumicon green laser pointer
Orion Q-70 26mm, 32mm, and 38mm
Parks 2X 2" Barlow
Hyperion 17mm, 8mm
1 1/4" 18mm Russell Optics Bertele
1 1/4" 12.5mm and 6mm Coulter Optical Orthoscopics
1 1/4" X 2" 32mm Edmund Scientific war surplus Erfle
Tirion star atlas (white stars, black background) hand-laminated
Megastar
And a partridge in a pear tree
To nudge or not to nudge, that is the question
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SteveG
sage
Reged: 09/27/06
Posts: 237
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Folks, you have to try really hard to put a laser in the cockpit of a landing plane. I don't know where this is, but I am assuming this person was purposely pointing the laser at the side of landing/departing aircraft. Go ahead and use your laser - just don't point it at a low altitude aircraft.
BTW, I'm a pilot and someone once purposely followed my plane with a laser. It was surprisingly bright but did not blind me.
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WO Megrez 110 ED on SP Mount
10" Meade LightBridge
Orion ED 100 on Polaris Mount
6" f8 Edmonds reflector on GP Mount
4.5" F8 Orion EQ Reflector
Astroscan
Meade 226 2.4" f11.7
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star drop
Guilty as Charged
Reged: 02/02/08
Posts: 16211
Loc: Snow Plop, WNY
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The Buffalo, NY airport had a laser incident this year. The guys with the laser also shined it at a sheriffs helicopter that came to investigate. The oldest of the trouble makers was 42 years old.
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Ted
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sang33ta
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 07/08/08
Posts: 767
Loc: UK
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If they arrest you your best defence would be this...
How many planes have been downed buy a laser run on 2x 1.5v batteries?
I would guess none! 
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Hioptic 152mm f12.5 Maksutov, CG5-AGT, Meade Super Plossl Set, Casio QV-2900UX
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 25186
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
If they arrest you your best defence would be this...
How many planes have been downed buy a laser run on 2x 1.5v batteries?
You know, I've heard the "I wasn't hurting anybody" defense attempted by lots of pro se defendants in various courtrooms over the years. I've never observed it to work, though.
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John C
Urban Observatory
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 178ED F/9 "APO"
Meade ETX-125AT
C14
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
CI-700, NJP, GPDX/SS2KPC, CG5-GT
ST-10XME, DSI Pro
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sang33ta
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 07/08/08
Posts: 767
Loc: UK
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Seriously though if you are going to put someone in jail for a crime you better make sure there was a crime.
64 million takeoffs and landings per year in the US alone, how many crashed because of a toy laser? I bet you can't find a single one even in the entire world.
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Hioptic 152mm f12.5 Maksutov, CG5-AGT, Meade Super Plossl Set, Casio QV-2900UX
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Tombstone Sky
One-Eyed Jack
Reged: 12/18/06
Posts: 1708
Loc: Tombstone Arizona
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Are they against the law? Depends. There are some federal regulations. There are some state laws. There are some local ordinances. You have to look them up.
More important than "legal" is "safe". Be SURE you read the safety warnings for these things.
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MJ "Morg" Staley
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M5 Dark-Site Observatory
Meade 12" f/10 LX90GPS "River"
WO 2" Dielectric Diagonal
Meade SP 5000 full set, 24mm Meade 5000 UWA,
BO/TMB Planetary 8, 9mm, Nagler 13mmT6
Meade 505/USB/ASU/SNP6
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3463
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
64 million takeoffs and landings per year in the US alone, how many crashed because of a toy laser? I bet you can't find a single one even in the entire world.
No doubt. Airplanes have multiple levels of safety backups; one temporarily blinded pilot isn't likely to crash a plane. But that doesn't mean that it's not a real hazard, a serious offense, and an incredibly stupid and arrogant thing to do.
Think a little laser that runs on AAA cells is a harmless toy? Try shining it into your dark-adapted eyes and report back to us. But I'm warning you right now that it's dangerous, so don't sue me for damages.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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GUNER
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/19/04
Posts: 1614
Loc: Bedminster,NJ USA
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Quote:
Seriously though if you are going to put someone in jail for a crime you better make sure there was a crime...
Well it's a crime in the US to point a laser at a plane so he got whatever the punishment is. Hopefully others will learn from this moron before they outright ban ownership.
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Thomas
17mm ETHOS NEAF Door Prize
THANK-YOU TELEVUE!!!!
12" SuperCharged LX-200 GPS
TAK SKY 90 on a Vixen Skypod
Stacked GOLD!PST/EXT-70AT/DSX-125
Infinity 2-1 CCD Camera with Lucam Recorder
Custom Scientific 1.25" LRGB filters
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starcam
sage
Reged: 09/24/07
Posts: 316
Loc: MD
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I have a couple of green lasers, there are too many planes traveling overhead. I'm just not taking a chance of one crossing the lasers path. I'm not really near an airport, 20 miles.
Those guys were blatantly pointing at the planes it seems.
Don't know if the feds would differentiate the occurance.
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Celestron 9.25 SCT f/10 fl/2350
Stellarvue SV102ED2 F/7 fl/710
William Optics Megrez 72mm F/6 fl/432mm
Coronado PST
CG-5
UWAN 28mm
Panoptic 22mm
Televue 7T6,13T6,15wf,11
Pentax XW 7,10,20,40 / XO 5 / Zoom 8-24
RKE 8,12,15,21,28
Hyperion 5,8,17/13
TMB 2.5,4,6II,7,9
Brandon 6,8,12,16
UO HD 7mm
Oberwerk bino 15x70
Burgess 8x42 bino
WO binoviewer
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3463
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
I have a couple of green lasers, there are too many planes going overhead. I'm just not taking a chance of one crossing the lasers path.
I don't think there's any real hazard. Airplanes are very easy to see at night; just make sure you don't point anywhere near them. And if you use a green laser as a finder for your scope, make sure that you turn it off when it's not in active use.
I think there's a widespread misunderstanding of lasers. The reason that they're dangerous is precisely the same as the reason they're safe. If that beam shines directly into your eyes, even from several miles away, it's going to be painfully bright. The reason that's true, despite the very small amount of power involved, is that all the energy is packed into an unbelievably tight bundle. Looking at a laser from 1000 feet is like holding a flashlight one inch from your eyeball.
By the same token, if you stand 1000 feet from someone with a laser, and he shines it a few degrees away from you, you'll barely see a thing. It's like a bullet -- either it hits you or it doesn't.
Those incidents with aircraft happen only when people are intentionally trying to tag the plane. The chances of doing it by accident are extremely small.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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Tombstone Sky
One-Eyed Jack
Reged: 12/18/06
Posts: 1708
Loc: Tombstone Arizona
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Tony, in my opinion your response is totally irresponsible. It's like saying it's ok to fire a gun into the air because the chances of the bullet falling and injuring someone is minor.
A tuned 5mW GLP can reach to 25000'. They can distract, or temporarily blind, aircraft pilots, which is not only not good, but is specifically prosecutable. If that pilot is in a landing pattern, the consequences can be horrific. I will also add, in this day and age, the very sight of a laser in the air will distract a pilot.
They can also cause temporary blindness in automobile drivers, which can clearly cause accidents (read: kill people).
Irresponsible use of these things is why laws are popping up prohibiting them. Insensitive opinions like yours are part of the reason why. And I would also remind those who think these GLPs are "cute" that reckless endangerment, the catch-all for irresponsible people and on the books just about everywhere, can carry felony weight and don't exempt amateur astronomers.
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3463
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Tony, in my opinion your response is totally irresponsible.
Sorry, are you responding to my post or someone else's? It almost sounds as though you didn't read what I wrote.
Yes, of course shining a laser at an airplane or a car is irresponsible and illegal. As I specifically said in my post, the danger from doing that is far greater than most people realize.
What I said is that the chances of shining a laser into an airplane's cockpit by accident are vanishingly small. And you can eliminate even that minuscule risk simply by looking where you're aiming the laser and avoiding any moving light.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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94bamf
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/15/08
Posts: 706
Loc: Kansas City,Mo
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The better question is, how would they find you? Unless you were using the thing non-stop, how would they determine your location? It seems to me if you pay attention(watch for planes) to what you are doing, you shouldn't have a problem.
Ken
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Telescopes:
Celestron C6 SCT on CG4 mount
Skywatcher 8 inch F/5 Newt on a GEM
Celestron 8 inch Starhopper Dob
Celestron Oynx 80ED
Celestron C130 Mak
Celestron C102HD
Binoculars:
Nikon 7x35 Action
Nikon 7x50 Action
Zen Ray Summit 10x42
Celestron 10x42 Noble
Orion 10x50 Scenix
Celestron 10x50 Noble
Pentax 12x50 PCF WP II
Celestron 15x70 Skymaster
Oberwerk 20x60
Zhumell 20x80
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alpal
sage
Reged: 06/15/09
Posts: 204
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In Australia they are illegal to use without permission
except for the tiny ones under 1mW.
Even then it's illegal to point it into the sky at a plane.
The powerful green lasers are dangerous & a pilot was
temporarily blinded by one last year when coming in
to land at Sydney.
Be careful guys - you can do serious jail time!
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Location: Melbourne Australia.
8" f6 custom built Newtonian with
EQ6 Pro mount.
Takahashi LE 5mm eyepiece & 2 x Tak. Barlow.
Williams Optics Eyepieces - 2" 40mm & 25mm, 1.25" 15mm & 9mm.
Saxon 11 x 70 binos.
Set of 11 Hirsh Optics 1.25" filters.
Set of 4 Orion 2" filters.
Antares 1.25" ALP filter.
+ One cheap 4.5" Newt. complete with eyepieces.
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Arcadio
member
Reged: 09/16/09
Posts: 24
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And now for the newbie question: why do you need a laser pointer while using a telescope?
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Adrian Lopez
sage
Reged: 10/22/08
Posts: 267
Loc: Puerto Rico
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Quote:
I will also add, in this day and age, the very sight of a laser in the air will distract a pilot.
This is taking caution too far, like people who reference 9/11 in an attempt to justify some mindless new policy. Just don't point your laser near any airplanes and things should be fine.
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Celestron Omni XLT 120 (f/8.3) Refractor
William Optics 1.25" Dielectric Diagonal
Celestron 4, 6, 9, 15, 25, and 32mm EPs
Nikon Action Extreme 8x40 Binoculars
Canon Digital Rebel XT
RA Sweep Calculator (find objects without GoTo)
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3463
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
And now for the newbie question: why do you need a laser pointer while using a telescope?
I know of exactly two legitimate reasons to use a green laser pointer -- together with lots of illegitimate ones.
They're most often used to point out stars and constellations to other, less experienced people. A godsend at public gatherings.
Some people use them as finders for their telescopes -- kinda like a Telrad, but backward. A Telrad projects a red circle toward your eye that overlays the view of the sky. A laser literally projects a point *into* the sky. The advantage is that you don't have to stoop down and crane your neck up to see it, as you do with most finders.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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Darenwh
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 05/11/06
Posts: 1221
Loc: Covington, GA
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Personally, having lived very near (less than 5 miles) from an airport I would not use it from my house there. Now, I am a good ways in the country and it is rare that planes fly overhead at low altitudes so very unlikely that I could hit them even if I tried so using it is no problem. It comes down to common sense...
Oh, and for the person who said to contact the FFA... What's the Future Farmers of America going to do?
I would recommend the FAA, Federal Airline Administration... 
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Daren
Covington, GA
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RonBurgundy
sage
Reged: 06/16/09
Posts: 252
Loc: Philadelphia
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I believe it is the Federal Aviation Administration...   
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Kipp Ginsburg
8" LX200-ACF
Orion 120mm F/5.0 Piggybacked Refractor
Meade UWA Set [4.7mm-30mm]
DSI-II
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Jason D
Post Laureate
Reged: 10/21/06
Posts: 3302
Loc: California
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Whatever happened to old "common sense"? I have both an RDF and a GLP mounted on my scope. I prefer the GLP but sometimes I have to use the RDF if there are planes in the vicinity. No big deal.
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XT10 classic with premium optics
Tri-knob CR2 with compression rings
Round Table Platform
4.5" StarBlast
6" StarBlast6
TV EPs
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dalesd
newbie
Reged: 10/19/09
Posts: 3
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This has nothing to do with airplanes, but I have a question.
I was at a small star party recently and overheard someone imply that it was dangerous to use a GLP while someone else is looking through a telescope. Is this dangerous? If so, what's the danger?
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Jason D
Post Laureate
Reged: 10/21/06
Posts: 3302
Loc: California
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Quote:
This has nothing to do with airplanes, but I have a question.
I was at a small star party recently and overheard someone imply that it was dangerous to use a GLP while someone else is looking through a telescope. Is this dangerous? If so, what's the danger?
There is no danger.
However, many star parties do no allow GLPs because they ruin the work for those who are into astrophotography.
Jason
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XT10 classic with premium optics
Tri-knob CR2 with compression rings
Round Table Platform
4.5" StarBlast
6" StarBlast6
TV EPs
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Scott Watson
sage
Reged: 05/26/06
Posts: 279
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Quote:
Tony, in my opinion your response is totally irresponsible. It's like saying it's ok to fire a gun into the air because the chances of the bullet falling and injuring someone is minor.
A tuned 5mW GLP can reach to 25000'. They can distract, or temporarily blind, aircraft pilots, which is not only not good, but is specifically prosecutable. If that pilot is in a landing pattern, the consequences can be horrific. I will also add, in this day and age, the very sight of a laser in the air will distract a pilot.
They can also cause temporary blindness in automobile drivers, which can clearly cause accidents (read: kill people).
Irresponsible use of these things is why laws are popping up prohibiting them. Insensitive opinions like yours are part of the reason why. And I would also remind those who think these GLPs are "cute" that reckless endangerment, the catch-all for irresponsible people and on the books just about everywhere, can carry felony weight and don't exempt amateur astronomers.
You exaggerate the situation. First it is well nigh impossible to aim a laser at the pupil of an eye for any sustained period at a distance of 25,000ft or even 25ft - which is why laser pointers are perfectly legal in business forums. Furthermore, to be legal, a laser pointer must be less than 5mW - a level chosen so that no damage can occur in the time it takes to blink or turn away. Finally, it would take an extremely high quality laser to maintain the necessary low divergence required to have anything approaching sufficient intensity to do damage at a distance of 25,000ft. While there IS a law, like so many laws, the basis is fairly weak and has more to do with intent to do harm than actual ability.
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Tom Andrews
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/25/07
Posts: 1004
Loc: Homebase - Albuquerque, NM, cu...
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Quote:
A tuned 5mW GLP can reach to 25000'.
Are you sure about 25,000 feet? I was under the impression it was 2,500 feet...?
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Tom
The Secret To Life:
Focus on what you have, not on what you don't;
Focus on what you can do, not on what you can't.
************************************************
2007 Discovery 12.5" PDHQ Split-Tube Dob w/manual setting circles/Telrad/Zhummel 8x50 RACI finder scope (*For Sale*)
Coulter Odessey 8" Dob
Celestron C11-SGT
Garrett Optical 15x70 Gemini Binoculars on homemade Parallelogram w/Setting Circles
The Albuquerque Astronomy Society (TAAS)
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erick
member
Reged: 11/21/07
Posts: 77
Loc: Bacchus Marsh, Australia
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Quote:
Some people use them as finders for their telescopes --
And they are an excellent tool for this purpose. Align the laser in a holder (or even held against the edge of the focuser on a reflector) so you see the end of the laser in your wide field eyepiece, move the scope until the laser is pointing where you want to observe, switch it off and start observing.
BTW, in Australia, import is covered by federal laws; possession and use is governed by State laws. In Victoria, any hand-holdable laser pointer of >1mW is a "prohibited weapon" and a permit is required from the Commissioner of Police to possess and use one here. Requirements include safe locked storage. And the licence costs more than most laser pointers! I have a licence for my 5mW greenie.
In theory, this law even covers a number of laser collimators - check how many are >1mW. 
Edited by erick (11/05/09 10:39 PM)
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ken svp120
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/19/04
Posts: 1269
Loc: Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
Tony, in my opinion your response is totally irresponsible. It's like saying it's ok to fire a gun into the air because the chances of the bullet falling and injuring someone is minor.
A tuned 5mW GLP can reach to 25000'. They can distract, or temporarily blind, aircraft pilots, which is not only not good, but is specifically prosecutable. If that pilot is in a landing pattern, the consequences can be horrific. I will also add, in this day and age, the very sight of a laser in the air will distract a pilot.
They can also cause temporary blindness in automobile drivers, which can clearly cause accidents (read: kill people).
Irresponsible use of these things is why laws are popping up prohibiting them. Insensitive opinions like yours are part of the reason why. And I would also remind those who think these GLPs are "cute" that reckless endangerment, the catch-all for irresponsible people and on the books just about everywhere, can carry felony weight and don't exempt amateur astronomers.
You exaggerate the situation. First it is well nigh impossible to aim a laser at the pupil of an eye for any sustained period at a distance of 25,000ft or even 25ft - which is why laser pointers are perfectly legal in business forums. Furthermore, to be legal, a laser pointer must be less than 5mW - a level chosen so that no damage can occur in the time it takes to blink or turn away. Finally, it would take an extremely high quality laser to maintain the necessary low divergence required to have anything approaching sufficient intensity to do damage at a distance of 25,000ft. While there IS a law, like so many laws, the basis is fairly weak and has more to do with intent to do harm than actual ability.
Scott - I have been thinking of buying a laser - one in the 350 - 500 mW range (not for astronomy of course) - where can I find the law you are referring to?
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Orion 120 Refractor
Orion SkyviewPro Mount, Single Axis Drive
Losmandy G11 Mount, Non-Gemini
TEC 140 Apochromat #300
Meade DSI Pro II Monochrome
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dVnt
member
Reged: 08/31/09
Posts: 29
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I don't think anyone has much to worry about unless they're intentionally being irresponsible.
Think about this folks, how do you FIND someone shining a laser pointer on a commercial aircraft? Have they equipped commercial airliners with military grade defense systems since 9/11 or something? I think there is more to this story than: man shines laser at plane, man goes to jail for two years.
Also, think about the distances involved. I'd say it's nothing but dumb lucky that a human would be able to target the cockpit of an aircraft by holding a laser pointer in their hand - and it certainly wouldn't be directed at the cockpit for any longer than a moment.
I can't help but think that some of these laws are in place to give law enforcement the legal grounds investigate incidences of this type with impunity. Sort of like prohibiting alcohol in national/state parks here in VA. The rangers don't care, they just use it as legal grounds to take action if folks are being unruly.
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Zhumell Z8 Deluxe Dobsonian Reflector
Zhumell 9mm 1.25" EP, Zhumell 30mm WV 2" EP
GSO 2X Barlow
Zhumell 2" Filter Kit (Skyglow, UHC, O-III, Variable Polarity)
Baader Planetarium 2" to 1.25" EP Adapter
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sixela
Postmaster
Reged: 12/23/04
Posts: 10848
Loc: Boechout, Belgium
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Quote:
A tuned 5mW GLP can reach to 25000'.
It reaches infinity. Even the FAA has determined that it doesn't even distract a pilot at distances far lower (it was determined a 5mW 532nm laser is indistinguishable from background lighting at 11,712 feet), but thank you for playing the armchair expert and lifting your finger at Tony for no good reason.
Even at 3000ft there is only a distraction hazard (although it is theoretically still a hazard, which means that aiming at a plane at that distance deliberately is foolish - and quite against the Belgian law, even though it's not a law specifically targeted at green laser pointers).
It's also very hard to aim it at a plane overhead, and planes directly overhead do not have visible cockpits - most incidents involve someone close enough to the axis of a runway to aim at the cockpit and repeated flashes (i.e. someone aiming at a cokcpit for quite some time, not just a plane that passes through a beam).
Quote:
I will also add, in this day and age, the very sight of a laser in the air will distract a pilot.
If anyone in a cockpit that is not directly hit by a laser sees the beam, chances are you aren't using a 5mW laser.
Quote:
They can also cause temporary blindness in automobile drivers, which can clearly cause accidents (read: kill people).
So can stones (every few years you can read about some idiots who find it amusing to hurl stones at vehicles (trains and cars) from bridges). You need to act responsibly, and green laser pointers have little to do with that general observation.
Quote:
And I would also remind those who think these GLPs are "cute" that reckless endangerment, the catch-all for irresponsible people and on the books just about everywhere, can carry felony weight and don't exempt amateur astronomers.
And where exactly did you se Tony advocate reckless behaviour?
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400mm f/4.46 self made Dobsonian on Tom Osypowski equatorial platform
Orion Starblast (114mm f/4 reflector, Alt/Az)
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sixela
Postmaster
Reged: 12/23/04
Posts: 10848
Loc: Boechout, Belgium
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Quote:
This has nothing to do with airplanes, but I have a question.
I was at a small star party recently and overheard someone imply that it was dangerous to use a GLP while someone else is looking through a telescope.
Rubbish. I actually look through the telescope at the beam in a 26T5 to align the GLP finder. It's not exactly good for your night vision, but if that blinds you, then you need to live in a dark room for the rest of your life.
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400mm f/4.46 self made Dobsonian on Tom Osypowski equatorial platform
Orion Starblast (114mm f/4 reflector, Alt/Az)
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sixela
Postmaster
Reged: 12/23/04
Posts: 10848
Loc: Boechout, Belgium
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Quote:
You exaggerate the situation. First it is well nigh impossible to aim a laser at the pupil of an eye
Just for the record: it's not necessary to hit the pilot's eye to distract. Just the glare of light scattered on the cockpit is enough. The problem is that divergence of the beam doesn't help you as much as it does to avoid eye damage, because a cockpit is a lot bigger than an eye pupil.
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400mm f/4.46 self made Dobsonian on Tom Osypowski equatorial platform
Orion Starblast (114mm f/4 reflector, Alt/Az)
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mclewis1
Thread Killer
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 3942
Loc: New Brunswick, Canada
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For all you folks saying "just be careful" and such you should know that in the US there are some very specific areas where you CANNOT use a laser at all. Specifically within 5 nautical miles from the end of any airport's runways and depending on the interpretation of the regulation (strength of the laser) up to 10 nautical miles from any airport in any direction.
This restriction doesn't end at a certain time of day, doesn't matter if there are aircraft in the air or not ... it restricts the use of a laser within the specific zones at any time. Although unlikely, local officials could enforce this regulation even with no airport activity present. While the regulation appears to be in response to the use of laser light shows and such the way it is written it covers any laser use including the less than 5mw GLPs being discussed here.
A good rule of thumb would be if there is a small general aviation airport within about 15 miles of your location you probably shouldn't fire up a green laser outdoors at all.
FAA regulation: http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/AIR/air2901.html
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Mark
C11, C6, APM/TMB115, and AT80ED - Tandem mount CGE and CG-5A, WO EZ-Touch and AT Voyager
25x100s and 8x56s, T-Mount Light, Mark 1 eyeballs - Modded 350D, DSI-P, SPC900, Mallincam
Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean that you should
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sixela
Postmaster
Reged: 12/23/04
Posts: 10848
Loc: Boechout, Belgium
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Quote:
For all you folks saying "just be careful" and such you should know that in the US there are some very specific areas where you CANNOT use a laser at all.
I agree you shouldn't be using a laser in an FAA laser free zone without specific alternative measures (e.g. the use of dedicated plane spotters) or asking around.
Quote:
Although unlikely, local officials could enforce this regulation even with no airport activity present.
Actually, there is no penalty specifically for not complying with FAA regulations (even though if you choose to be irresponsible the Patriot Act makes interfering with an operator of mass transport a felony - regardless of whether you comply with FAA regulations).
Unless you're in an industry regulated by the FDA that is concerned (e.g. if you are a laser show company).
Which doesn't mean it's not a good idea to look things up (and to consult the forms that these companies must use). If you want to know how to compute things:
http://www.pangolin.com/faa/faa_ac70-1_outdoor_laser_operations.pdf
Quote:
A good rule of thumb would be if there is a small general aviation airport within about 15 miles of your location you probably shouldn't fire up a green laser outdoors at all.
It's a very conservative rule of thumb (which isn't bad in itself, of course). The laser free zone can be seen here:
http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/AIR/air2901_files/image002.jpg
So unless you're in the axis of a runway, it's more like 2 nautical miles from any part of the runway (nautical miles are longer than 2 statute miles).
Of course, if you're living less than 10 nautical miles from an airport, you do need to know where runways point to and what the approach patterns are (I have a runway 6 kilometres from my home, but I also have a Telrad and not only a GLP...)
Yes, there are larger zones, but you'd be hard pressed to cause the regulated levels of effective irradiance for those with a 5mW pointer (given the collimation and the beam divergence that is usually higher than 1 milliradian).
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400mm f/4.46 self made Dobsonian on Tom Osypowski equatorial platform
Orion Starblast (114mm f/4 reflector, Alt/Az)
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Jim Haley
professor emeritus
Reged: 07/04/07
Posts: 728
Loc: Surrey England (SW of London)
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deleted
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Jim Haley
12.5" f6 Starsplitter Dob because aperture and focal length rule.
Orion 8" XTi (with computerized object locator) because I view from the city and I won't always lug out the 12.5
Orion 114EQ reflector, Heritage 130P flextub Dob (My super portable dob is always in the car).
80mm f6 refractor (great for daytime use)
76mm Mini Dob (skywatcher brand). Hyper-portable dob base mounts to heavy duty ($100) tripod.
Edited by Jim Haley (11/06/09 12:18 PM)
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Scott Watson
sage
Reged: 05/26/06
Posts: 279
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Quote:
Quote:
You exaggerate the situation. First it is well nigh impossible to aim a laser at the pupil of an eye
Just for the record: it's not necessary to hit the pilot's eye to distract. Just the glare of light scattered on the cockpit is enough. The problem is that divergence of the beam doesn't help you as much as it does to avoid eye damage, because a cockpit is a lot bigger than an eye pupil.
I'm not suggesting people point their lasers at planes. I'm indicating the hazard is near nil. Pilots are used to many distractions, turbulance, lightning, darkness, cloud cover, and so forth. A millisecond long flash of green light isn't going to phase them. The real, apparently untold, story behind the laser law is that laser-guided munitions also use relatively weak lasers and a pilot cannot distinguish between a benign astronomy laser and a potential terrorist aiming at his craft. In short, while there is no hazard from a laser pointer hitting a plane, it isn't a good idea. Don't do it.
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sailor70623
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/12/08
Posts: 939
Loc: Ok.
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Just for giggles, the same courts that have declared that any hand held laser is capable of bringing down an aircraft, have also stated that no small laser could possibly distract or cause damage to the operator or any-one by aiming the laser at them, even in their eyes, so as to cause a distraction, or any injury, that may cause any interference in the operation of a motor vehicle. So almost every State Trooper in the US today shoots his laser at the front of every passing car and truck to check it's speed. $$$ are more important than our eyes?
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Corornado PST
LB 16" & 12"
Z 10"
LX50 8"
8" CPC
ETX127
102&90mm MAKs
80mm Richfield APO
70mm refractor
ETX60
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 25186
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
Just for giggles,
Three false premises out of three. You aren't likely to draw any useful conclusions that way.
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John C
Urban Observatory
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 178ED F/9 "APO"
Meade ETX-125AT
C14
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
CI-700, NJP, GPDX/SS2KPC, CG5-GT
ST-10XME, DSI Pro
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sailor70623
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/12/08
Posts: 939
Loc: Ok.
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What "false premises". Home land security has made it a FELONY to point any laser at any aircraft, due to it being posibily used to "bring the aircraft down". OOIDA went to court against the USDOT over the repeated use of laser on the front windshield of commercial vehicles (when these came out the manufactorer designed them to be shot at the back of cars and trucks), and the decision was that small lasers can not do any physical harm to one's eyes and can not/will not cause any distraction to the opperation of a vehicle. Those are facts, while not exactly the "same court" they are both US courts. And while the "court in DC decided that no small laser can do any physical harm to your eyes, I am not going to shine a laser in my eyes. But I also doubt that any small laser has ever been used to bring an air craft down, unless it was used as a sight for some other type of weapon. I was in the military and we do have laser guided ordinance.
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Corornado PST
LB 16" & 12"
Z 10"
LX50 8"
8" CPC
ETX127
102&90mm MAKs
80mm Richfield APO
70mm refractor
ETX60
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 25186
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
What "false premises". Home land security has made it a FELONY to point any laser at any aircraft, due to it being posibily used to "bring the aircraft down".
There's one. Homeland security is not a court (You claimed above that a court had made a finding). It's not even the legislature so they can't make anything a felony. And I doubt that their spokesperson made the statement you quote and attribute to HS (can you provide a citation?). For the others: low power infrared lasers have nothing at all to do with laser pointers.
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John C
Urban Observatory
A&M/Astreya 76mm F/6 APO
TMB/LOMO 80mm F/7.5 APO
Tak FSQ-106N F/5 APO
Meade 178ED F/9 "APO"
Meade ETX-125AT
C14
Teeter 20" F/3.8 truss Newt w/ServoCat
CI-700, NJP, GPDX/SS2KPC, CG5-GT
ST-10XME, DSI Pro
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sailor70623
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/12/08
Posts: 939
Loc: Ok.
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Sorry but yes, people have been cited with felony charges for this "Homeland Security ruling". HLS has the power to create rulings that are treated by the courts as LAW. Same power as OSHA, DOT, EPA, etc. These agencies are granted the power of Rule Making, which in effect are Federal laws. They are inforced by the courts, so that's the court rulings I am refering to. Yes a true law is passed by both the house and senate, and signed by the President before becomming law. However rulings by these special agencies and "Czars" bypass the law making process, are up held in our courts, so wheather you want to call them laws, or rules, the end efect is the same. You will get arrested, tried, fined and possibley put in prison. Law, rule, call it whatyamacallits, if they treat it like a law, I respect it like a law, so I refer to it as a law. And yes this "Rule" applies to red lasers too.
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Corornado PST
LB 16" & 12"
Z 10"
LX50 8"
8" CPC
ETX127
102&90mm MAKs
80mm Richfield APO
70mm refractor
ETX60
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Bill Weir
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 1297
Loc: Metchosin (Victoria), Canada
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Many seem to refer to the beam like it stays that little tiny dot all those many meters away. It is an expanding cone of light that is extremely bright and by the time it has reached couple of thousand meters in the air may be a couple of meters across. Think of that dot you have shot a long distance away on a tree or hillside. You can still see it. Do you think you would still be able to see it if it was only a couple of mm across? I can't read a book across a room, let alone a km away.
I've lost an email that was written by a very bright person who crunched the numbers on laser brightness and how big the circle would be way way up in the air. The brightness was something many factors brighter than looking at the Sun.
Bill
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6'' Orion SkyQuest
12.5'' f/5 Custom Truss Dob
William Optics 80mm ZenithStar ED II
f/5 25" newtonian on a giant GEM, any time I want
Observing sessions grand total for 2008, 121.
So far in 2009, 92
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ken svp120
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/19/04
Posts: 1269
Loc: Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
What "false premises". Home land security has made it a FELONY to point any laser at any aircraft, due to it being posibily used to "bring the aircraft down".
There's one. Homeland security is not a court (You claimed above that a court had made a finding). It's not even the legislature so they can't make anything a felony. And I doubt that their spokesperson made the statement you quote and attribute to HS (can you provide a citation?). For the others: low power infrared lasers have nothing at all to do with laser pointers.
John - another way to look at this is to liken it to the IRS. The IRS is not a court, yet as you probably know it makes many regulations. Courts may then cite you with a crime for certain violations thereof.
My overall take on this issue after watching all this back and forth though is that we shouldn't be using laser pointers aimed up through a night sky. Period. No - I don't think there is a great likelihood of them bringing down a plane and no I don't think they are an overwhelming distraction to pilots. HOWEVER, in this day and age with the current events taking place - why do we want to take that chance or run the risk of a misinterpretted act? I almost look at it as that we have become exceedingly lazy. What happened to pointing at something with your finger and trying to verbalize where it's at? What happened to locating things with a normal finder scope? And we even have computer guidance systems that require no laser.
Honestly I do not see any need for them astronomically. Are they a convenience? Sure. Is there any real need for them? Absolutely not.
Again - why run the risk? We've done without until very recently. We want everyone else to protect our skies. We should respect a pilots wishes to be as little distracted as possible while flying through them.
Sorry for the brief rant...just my thoughts...
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Orion 120 Refractor
Orion SkyviewPro Mount, Single Axis Drive
Losmandy G11 Mount, Non-Gemini
TEC 140 Apochromat #300
Meade DSI Pro II Monochrome
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2682
sage
Reged: 02/18/08
Posts: 210
Loc: The Heartland
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We had three different men arrested in Columbus, OH within a week for pointing lasers at aircraft.
One of them had it attached to a rifle. Nothing to worry about here!
I suggest people check out: laserpointersafety.com for further information.
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Benders 900/9 1180/9.29
Folder LB8 1219/6
"(Sigh!) I sold it for a song. But, that song was 'White Christmas.' I made millions!" - Montgomery Burns
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GUNER
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/19/04
Posts: 1614
Loc: Bedminster,NJ USA
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ken svp120,
I can't agree with your brief rant. I use my laser to point out objects during outreach. It is far eaiser to show a group this way & why shouldn't I? Because some moron can't control himself & has to flash his laser at planes? Under that same line of thought we shouldn't drive because people drive drunk,we should all use public tranportation.
A laser pointer is a tool just that. If you use it as a adult you should be fine. If not you should be given the punishment the law says.
I can't stand how people get on to don't use/banning things that people use just because of the lowest common denominator.
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Thomas
17mm ETHOS NEAF Door Prize
THANK-YOU TELEVUE!!!!
12" SuperCharged LX-200 GPS
TAK SKY 90 on a Vixen Skypod
Stacked GOLD!PST/EXT-70AT/DSX-125
Infinity 2-1 CCD Camera with Lucam Recorder
Custom Scientific 1.25" LRGB filters
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ischua
Under the Radar
Reged: 07/17/08
Posts: 191
Loc: Franklinville New York
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good reads
http://www.fda.gov/Radiation-EmittingProducts/ElectronicProductRadiationControlProgram/LawsandRegulations/default.htm
http://www.fda.gov/Radiation-EmittingProducts/RadiationSafety/AlertsandNotices/ucm116534.htm
http://www.fda.gov/Radiation-EmittingProducts/RadiationSafety/AlertsandNotices/ucm153548.htm
Nominal Hazard Zones for Visible Diode Pointers
Power: 5 mW - Divergence: 1 mr - beam size: 2 mm
Based on: FAA 74002D Outdoor Laser/High Intensity Light Demonstration
Nominal Hazard Zone 5mw laser
BLINK REFLEX 51 ft
FLASH-BLINDNESS/AFTERIMAGE 262 ft
GLARE 1,171 ft
"NO EFFECT" 11,707 ft
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Mike
Meade 2080
and assorted parts
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BarbMoore
member
Reged: 05/11/09
Posts: 36
Loc: New Mexico
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Why is common sense so uncommon?
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Barbara Moore
Aperature is everything!
www.astronomersgroup.org
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Dain
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/24/05
Posts: 1596
Loc: N.Y. Adirondack Mnts. NGC 4565...
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Quote:
Why is common sense so uncommon?
I think most people have common sense, they just feel too lazy to use it.
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Best,
Dain
Adirondack Mountains (my true dark sky site)
@ Cedar River Flow
Local Site
Clear Skies?
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ken svp120
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/19/04
Posts: 1269
Loc: Ohio
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Quote:
ken svp120,
I can't agree with your brief rant. I use my laser to point out objects during outreach. It is far eaiser to show a group this way & why shouldn't I? Because some moron can't control himself & has to flash his laser at planes? Under that same line of thought we shouldn't drive because people drive drunk,we should all use public tranportation.
A laser pointer is a tool just that. If you use it as a adult you should be fine. If not you should be given the punishment the law says.
I can't stand how people get on to don't use/banning things that people use just because of the lowest common denominator.
Thomas,
One one point I completely agree with you - things should not be banned because of the lowest common denominator.
However, we have no need of pointing lasers into a dark sky where we can not honestly know for sure that nothing in that sky is in the path of that beam. I called it lazy in my post and you completely support my suspicion by saying "its far easier, why shouldn't I?" I'm not trying to pick a fight and we may just have to agree to disagree. But in my mind, the reason we shouldn't is that there are pilots in the sky with the lives of others in their hands. If lasers distract them, worry them, or in any slight way make their job more difficult, we should be respectful of that and refrain from using them.
This isn't about one person intentionally aiming at a plane. This about an entire group of folks wanting to shine laser beams into the night sky. And another whole group who is imacted by that.
If the pilots as a group said, sure this is fine then I would have a different take on this. But that's not what I'm hearing nor is it what I would suppose we would hear. Let's be respectful of other's use of the night sky just as we ask them to be respectful of our use of it.
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Orion 120 Refractor
Orion SkyviewPro Mount, Single Axis Drive
Losmandy G11 Mount, Non-Gemini
TEC 140 Apochromat #300
Meade DSI Pro II Monochrome
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csa/montana
Wild Spirit
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40167
Loc: montana
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Again, common sense should prevail. I have a laser mounted on my scope. I live under very dark skies. Before using it, I scan the sky for any aircraft; & listen for any. They are a very useful tool, when used properly.
BTW, I do have a pilot's license.
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3463
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
We have no need of pointing lasers into a dark sky
I'm curious, have you ever used a laser pointer? Somehow, I'm getting the feeling that you don't know much about how they actually work in practice.
Quote:
Where we can not honestly know for sure that nothing in that sky is in the path of that beam.
The only thing that could possibly be in the path of the beam without your knowing it is a military aircraft flying in stealth mode -- and anybody who does that can't complain about the consequences. In any case, they'll be too high to be bothered by a laser.
Civilian aircraft are required to have running lights, and you can see their running lights far more easily than they can see your laser.
There is ZERO chance of blinding or distracting a pilot by a responsibly used laser. Well, not zero. You could fall unconscious, and the laser beam could sweep across a plane as you fall to the ground. But by the same token, the plane could be knocked out of the sky by a meteorite.
Quote:
I called it lazy in my post and you completely support my suspicion by saying "its far easier, why shouldn't I?"
Laziness has nothing to do with it. Laser pointers have revolutionized the whole experience of astronomy outreach. The difference is qualitative, not quantitative. The closest equivalent -- a bright white flashlight with a well-focused beam -- is far more light-polluting than a laser.
There is an aesthetic argument against using laser pointers that has some legitimacy. Your argument based on airplanes is based on faulty factual premises.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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ken svp120
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/19/04
Posts: 1269
Loc: Ohio
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Tony,
Yes I have used a laser pointer and been next to other club members also using them. I know how they work.
And as to the zero chance of distraction - you have absolutely no way of saying what impact your actions will have on someone else. We might like to think that our lasers have zero chance of distracting someone - but that is hardly our call and would be very presumptious to claim to know.
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Orion 120 Refractor
Orion SkyviewPro Mount, Single Axis Drive
Losmandy G11 Mount, Non-Gemini
TEC 140 Apochromat #300
Meade DSI Pro II Monochrome
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csa/montana
Wild Spirit
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40167
Loc: montana
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Quote:
And as to the zero chance of distraction - you have absolutely no way of saying what impact your actions will have on someone else. We might like to think that our lasers have zero chance of distracting someone - but that is hardly our call and would be very presumptious to claim to know.
Again, common precautions should prevail; many of us use our lasers responsibly, and will continue to do so.
BTW, being a pilot, & being in a flightpath; I contacted the FAA, & asked in advance about using my laser. I explained the precautions I take, and they thanked me for being responsible, & they have no problem with me using it............responsibly.
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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Brian L
super member
Reged: 11/17/08
Posts: 116
Loc: The garden paradise of Pittsbu...
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I can think of only a very narrow set of circumstances where a 5mW GLP on the ground could even remotely pose a threat to a civilian aircraft. You'd have to have line-of-sight between the ground and the cockpit, which would have to be either during final approach or from a distance far enough away that the dispersion of the beam would not pose a threat to the pilots vision.
For an aircraft flying at 5,000 ft., you'd have to be several miles away to have a realistic angle to the cockpit. At this distance, beam dispersion and the intensity of light in an area the size of a human pupil doesn't pose a threat. In any case, hitting the cockpit of a plane from 3 miles away with a beam 3 meters in diameter would not be an easy target. The beam would have an angular size of about 2 arcmin at that distance. Even if you were intentionally trying to blind a pilot with such a device, it would be a pretty difficult task given the line-of-sight geometry and the beam dispersion.
However, it's also easy to envision some whacko out there with a more powerful laser properly mounted with some well aligned high quality optics that could be much more effectively targeted on an airliner. I think many of us on CN have the knowledge and most of the equipment to do this. There may be an existential threat to pilot's vision from an effectively targeted higher power laser, but not from these 5mW astronomical laser pointers. Still, it must not be easy for a pilot to distinguish them from the air. Thus, the strong reaction on the part of law enforcement to any laser of any sort being pointed at an airliner. If you're in an approach corridor to a major airport, you might want to nix the GLP.
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WO FLT-110 f/6.5, TEC optics
Losmandy G-11 Gemini
Meade 10" LX200 GPS/UHTC
Questar 3.5" Standard
Vixen VMC-110L
Canon 450D, unmodified
Assortment of TV Panoptic, TV Radian, Vixen LVW, and WO eyepieces
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calibos
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/18/07
Posts: 1050
Loc: Ireland
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Ken, Tony isn't make a subjective judgement on a pilots threshold distraction tolerance, ie what it takes to distract him. The point is that a certain distance away the laser looks no different to a street light except its green. Its not illuminating the cockpit with green light, its not causing the pilot to turn away, it simply looks like a green streetlight way off in the distance. Your arguement only holds if you think a green streetlight distracts a pilot more than an orange or white one.
At the distances where a laser is brighter from the point of view of the pilot, where there is the slim chance the beam was directed in the window and were the cockpit would indeed be illuminated with a green glow and be a distraction. Well at those kind of distances, you'll have heard the plane long before you've seen it, you'll have seen it long before it flys through your beam and you'll have switched your laser off well in advance.
Hence, what is the problem??
I've had a fellow observer almost launch himself at me like a slo-mo scene in a movie, like he was trying to block my shot with a pistol, shouting...."NOOOooooooooo....." all because an airliner at cruising altitude was tracking across the sky towards the beam about 90 degrees of sky away!!
I was like WTH!! Calm the hell down man. There is nothing more annoying than someone telling you not to do something when you can see they don't know what they are talking about. I am talking about him not you.
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Keith D.
Knightrider - 16" Meade Lightbridge - See Here
Moonlite CR Focusser with Rigel motofocus and Filterslide (2" Orion Variable Polorizer,UHC & H-Beta, Lumicon OIII)
Stellarvue F80M2 80mm Finder
Dewbuster and DewNot Dew Control
Servocat & SkyCommander
Howie Glatter Holograhic Collimator and Blug
Baader Hyperion 21/32mm,17mm,13mm,8mm,5mm,3.5mm EP
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3463
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
And as to the zero chance of distraction - you have absolutely no way of saying what impact your actions will have on someone else.
It's absolutely true -- if I clap my hands, the universe might come to an end. Didn't happen last time, but you never know ...
I would think that it's impossible to be distracted by something that you can't see. And a pilot *certainly* can't see your laser unless you shine it right at him (or her).
But who knows, you might be right, pilots may be distracted by invisible light beams all the time.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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lightfever
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/27/04
Posts: 1272
Loc: Macomb Michigan
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Quote:
However, we have no need of pointing lasers into a dark sky where we can not honestly know for sure that nothing in that sky is in the path of that beam.
If the plane is so far away that you can't notice it, the laser pointer is not going to bother anyone that flies by the beam.
The problem is during landing and take off when you have a moron or an individual with sinister intent continually lazing the cockpit.
This seems to be the day and age of overreaction IMHO.
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Mark
Tasco 15-TE 76mm
Sky Watcher 80mm ED
AT-111 Triplet
XT8i (with Woden re-figured mirror)
Discovery 12.5" f/5 Premium DHQ (PDHQ Split-tube Dobsonian)
12.5" f/6.3 Dob (Underconstruction)
Celestron CG-5GT EQ Mount
Celestron C4 EQ Mount
"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to dance in the rain" unknown
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ken svp120
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/19/04
Posts: 1269
Loc: Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
And as to the zero chance of distraction - you have absolutely no way of saying what impact your actions will have on someone else.
It's absolutely true -- if I clap my hands, the universe might come to an end. Didn't happen last time, but you never know ...
I would think that it's impossible to be distracted by something that you can't see. And a pilot *certainly* can't see your laser unless you shine it right at him (or her).
But who knows, you might be right, pilots may be distracted by invisible light beams all the time.
Tony - that's quite off the mark of my point - clapping your hands effecting the universe is nowhere in the same league as pointing a light in some direction where someone else is traveling. Come on now. And as for it being an invisible beam - correct me if I'm wrong here - a 5 mW laser will travel about 10,000 feet. While this isn't cruising altitude for a jet liner, its well within reach of smaller aircraft and nearer to airports.
If my facts are wrong, please correct me. Otherwise lets try to stay as objective as possible about it...
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Orion 120 Refractor
Orion SkyviewPro Mount, Single Axis Drive
Losmandy G11 Mount, Non-Gemini
TEC 140 Apochromat #300
Meade DSI Pro II Monochrome
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sixela
Postmaster
Reged: 12/23/04
Posts: 10848
Loc: Boechout, Belgium
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Quote:
So almost every State Trooper in the US today shoots his laser at the front of every passing car and truck to check it's speed. $$$ are more important than our eyes?
Different kettle of fish altogether. These would be unable even to distract you; they're class 1 lasers and collimated to project a 1 meter wide beam at 300 meters. Most even use infrared lighting.
But thanks for dragging that urban legend in the thread.
5mW GLP lasers are another story. They're very effective at distracting drivers, and they *are* dangerous in this respect if you're foolish with them.
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400mm f/4.46 self made Dobsonian on Tom Osypowski equatorial platform
Orion Starblast (114mm f/4 reflector, Alt/Az)
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sixela
Postmaster
Reged: 12/23/04
Posts: 10848
Loc: Boechout, Belgium
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Quote:
However, we have no need of pointing lasers into a dark sky
You don't get to decide what we need. I think that in the US, you have the right to bear certain things that you certainly also don't need, and it's a constitutionally protected right (one which, by the way, I personally have a much larger issue with than with GLPs, even wielded by stupid people let alone wielded by responsible people; but your constitution is what it is).
Quote:
I called it lazy in my post
It's an insult, nothing less.
Quote:
we may just have to agree to disagree.
I'm nor forcing anyone to use one. On the other hand, in your rant you suggested that *I* shouldn't have the freedom to use one, or decided (for me) that I'm lazy for using one.
That's not agreeing to disagree, that's trying to dictate how I should behave.
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we should be respectful of that and refrain from using them.
We should refrain from pointing them at planes. If just the hypothetical danger is enough for you not to engage in an activity, I suggest you sell your car and use public transportation or walk.
Cars not only hypothetically kill people, they really do, and often it's people who drive in their cars to do some benign shopping.
So if you're driving (and if we follow your line of thinking for a moment), you're just lazy and you're putting your comfort above the safety of others. But feel free to agree to disagree.
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If the pilots as a group said, sure this is fine
I know pilots (and have been a glider pilot myself). None of them (which is exactly 0% of the sample population) is advocating a ban on GLPs.
Are you a pilot?
Everyone really involved in this, by the way, agrees that GLPs have become so ubiquitous and cheap that educating people to use them responsibly is the only solution left.
Quote:
Let's be respectful of other's use of the night sky just as we ask them to be respectful of our use of it.
Again, you are insinuating that I am not respectful, and that's insulting.
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400mm f/4.46 self made Dobsonian on Tom Osypowski equatorial platform
Orion Starblast (114mm f/4 reflector, Alt/Az)
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ken svp120
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/19/04
Posts: 1269
Loc: Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
However, we have no need of pointing lasers into a dark sky
You don't get to decide what we need. I think that in the US, you have the right to bear certain things that you certainly also don't need, and it's a constitutionally protected right (one which, by the way, I personally have a much larger issue with than with GLPs, even wielded by stupid people let alone wielded by responsible people; but your constitution is what it is).
This is not a decision, it is a fact. Astronomy has done just fine without lasers for sometime. Lasers are not a necessity to using a telescope, observing, or looking at the night sky. There is no deciding - just stating fact.
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I called it lazy in my post
It's an insult, nothing less.
Not at all - this is the same as saying I enjoy a lazy afternoon of watching football. Its not meant in a deragotory way.
Quote:
we may just have to agree to disagree.
I'm nor forcing anyone to use one. On the other hand, in your rant you suggested that *I* shouldn't have the freedom to use one, or decided (for me) that I'm lazy for using one.
That's not agreeing to disagree, that's trying to dictate how I should behave.
There are certain freedoms we do not have and certain ways of conducting ourselves that are in fact dictated - these are the laws we decide to live under as being part of a society. A certian "code of conduct" is a very necessary thing.
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we should be respectful of that and refrain from using them.
We should refrain from pointing them at planes. If just the hypothetical danger is enough for you not to engage in an activity, I suggest you sell your car and use public transportation or walk.
Cars not only hypothetically kill people, they really do, and often it's people who drive in their cars to do some benign shopping.
So if you're driving (and if we follow your line of thinking for a moment), you're just lazy and you're putting your comfort above the safety of others. But feel free to agree to disagree.
A hypothectical danger may or may not prevent me from doing something, but it will certainly influence how or if I do decide to do it. Driving a car is an excellent example - and that is why we drive with caution. Driving can certainly be lazy if all you're doing is taking a drive through the country side, but far more often it is a necessity for people to earn a living in many cities that do not have adequate public transport.
Quote:
If the pilots as a group said, sure this is fine
I know pilots (and have been a glider pilot myself). None of them (which is exactly 0% of the sample population) is advocating a ban on GLPs.
Are you a pilot?
Everyone really involved in this, by the way, agrees that GLPs have become so ubiquitous and cheap that educating people to use them responsibly is the only solution left.
I'm not a pilot but there are four here in my office and we own several planes. Two of them said that an unexplected flash of light could be distracting, one said probably not, and one is not here today.
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Let's be respectful of other's use of the night sky just as we ask them to be respectful of our use of it.
Again, you are insinuating that I am not respectful, and that's insulting.
I'm not insinuating, I'm offering a suggestion. If we are asking people to control light pollution in the night sky by pointing their lights in a certain direction and/or shielding them, might we not apply a similar type of thought to our desire to shine lasers up into the night sky?
And because I feel that this discussion is getting a little too heated, that's the last I'm going to say on the matter.
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Orion 120 Refractor
Orion SkyviewPro Mount, Single Axis Drive
Losmandy G11 Mount, Non-Gemini
TEC 140 Apochromat #300
Meade DSI Pro II Monochrome
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BarbMoore
member
Reged: 05/11/09
Posts: 36
Loc: New Mexico
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Don't know why this thread got into a bash-fest but I will continue to use my green laser pointer RESPONSIBLY for public outreach.
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Barbara Moore
Aperature is everything!
www.astronomersgroup.org
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csa/montana
Wild Spirit
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40167
Loc: montana
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Quote:
This is not a decision, it is a fact. Astronomy has done just fine without lasers for sometime. Lasers are not a necessity to using a telescope, observing, or looking at the night sky. There is no deciding - just stating fact.
This is very true; however, it's these extra unessential tools that make observing more of a pleasure for many of us. Astronomy doesn't need "Go-to", Telrads, the list can go on & on; but they all work together to give Astronomers better observing times.
If someone doesn't like any of the tools, not "essential" to viewing; that's fine, I respect that; however, for those of us that use accessories, responsibly; then we ask that we also be respected.
I will continue using my laser, responsibly.
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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sixela
Postmaster
Reged: 12/23/04
Posts: 10848
Loc: Boechout, Belgium
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Quote:
This is not a decision, it is a fact. Astronomy has done just fine without lasers for sometime.
And astronomy has done just fine without telescopes for a lot longer than that.
Quote:
Not at all - this is the same as saying I enjoy a lazy afternoon of watching football. Its not meant in a deragotory way.
If you want to be courteous, you should mind your language with the beholder in mind. You write what you write, not what you had in mind.
Quote:
There are certain freedoms we do not have and certain ways of conducting ourselves that are in fact dictated - these are the laws we decide to live under as being part of a society.
Yes. And there is no law against using laser pointers as finders or for astronomy outreach. Nor is there a need for such a law.
The FDA, by the way, regulates the industry responsible for laser entertainment shows, and even they will allow some shows to use their far more powerful lasers in even an FAA laser-free zone if alternative measures like dedicated spotters are used (and when I'm observing I'm certainly just as dedicated a spotter before I light the GLP for a couple of seconds), so you're being more Catholic than the pope in this matter.
Quote:
and that is why we drive with caution.
And that is why I use my laser pointer with caution too.
Mind you, I'm still a lot less likely to hurt anyone driving my laser than you are driving your car, despite all the cautionary measures you may be taking.
Quote:
I'm not a pilot but there are four here in my office and we own several planes. Two of them said that an unexplected flash of light could be distracting, one said probably not, and one is not here today.
Non-sequitur - I am on record as saying you should not distract pilots, just as you shouldn't drive over people with a car.
The question was how many pilots you know support a ban on using green laser pointers responsibly.
Quote:
I'm not insinuating, I'm offering a suggestion.
I respectfully beg to differ. If you say "let's be respectful and not do X", you are implying that X is disrespectful. That's more than a suggestion or saying "I'd suggest we do X".
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400mm f/4.46 self made Dobsonian on Tom Osypowski equatorial platform
Orion Starblast (114mm f/4 reflector, Alt/Az)
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o1d_dude
o1der than dirt
Reged: 10/03/07
Posts: 2115
Loc: The TV/SV Wolfpack
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I don't think the problem is with the <5mW green laser pointers. They're simply not that bright. You pretty much have to be standing within a meter of the unit in order to truly see the beam.
It's the GLPs that are >5mW. I have personally been momentarily "flashed" through the eyepiece by well-intentioned observing group leaders using higher powered units and it's startling to say the least.
Do I own a GLP? No, but I will probably purchase one in the near future as it will definitely help in pointing out various objects in the sky to my wife. For my circumstances, the <5.mW will do just fine.
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Kit
'Don’t worry about what telescope you own, or its quality. Just get out under the night sky, and enjoy God’s wondrous universe.' - Thomas M Back
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Don Trinko
super member
Reged: 07/05/09
Posts: 131
Loc: Ohio
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Yes; laser pointers are not a neccesity, neither are telescopes,Televisions, Cell phones, etc.
Medical doctors aren't neccisary either; If you don't mind dying before age 30.
Lets face it: Telescopes and accesories are all toy's for you and me and I like neat toy's! All this is IMO; You do have a right to dissagree and you won't be the first.
Don T.
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Nexstar 8SE
Meade DS2130at-lnt
Astro-Tech 66mm
Coranado PST 40mm
Celestron 10x50 binoculars
Nikon 7x35 Binoculars
EP's 8 to 24 Zuhmell, 8 to 24 Hyperion, 12.5 Astro-Tech Paradime, Celestron 40,26,9.7 plossel,
Zuhmell 32,12.5,6,4 plossel , TMB 5,3.2, planitary II.
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3463
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
And as for it being an invisible beam - correct me if I'm wrong here - a 5 mW laser will travel about 10,000 feet. While this isn't cruising altitude for a jet liner, its well within reach of smaller aircraft and nearer to airports.
As has been pointed out before, stating a distance limit is pointless. The beam reaches out of the Solar System within a few hours. Obviously, it gets attenuated with distance, but much less than many people think. If you stand in a truly dark location and shine a 5 mW laser at a smooth surface 1/2 mile distant, you can *easily* see the illuminated spot. I've done that!
Obviously, if you were actually standing there having the light shining in your eyes, it would be all that much more visible. So yes, I don't doubt that somebody could *easily* see a laser 10,000 feet away if it was aimed directly at them from an otherwise dark location.
However, if it were aimed just one degree away from you, you wouldn't see a thing -- not even a hint. After all, the thing only has a fraction as much power as a conventional flashlight -- which would be barely visible (if at all) from 10,000 feet. And the flashlight's light spills all over the place, whereas the laser's beam hardly spreads at all out of its very tight cone.
So yes, if you had enough skill to target an airplane 2 miles up -- and it would take a lot of skill! -- and if the pilot had a window below his feet, as many helicopters do, and if you were standing at an otherwise dark spot, and the pilot were looking for you, then he could see you very easily.
But if you're using a laser responsibly, you're looking where it's pointed. And if you see an airplane anywhere near, you either turn off the beam or point it elsewhere. Therefore, the pilot never has so much as a hint that you're using a laser at all. As I said, the chance of a responsibly used laser being visible from an airplane is for all practical purposes zero.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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geezer@gpo
member
Reged: 11/06/05
Posts: 87
Loc: Southwestern Oregon
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Hi Alpal,
I recently read in a Canberra newspaper that mere possession of lasers is illegal in New South Wales by order of the NSW Parliament, but I inferred that they were not per se illegal to possess in other localities in Australia. Do I or did the Canberra press have it confused?
Just a matter of academic interest, but I do visit NSW from time to time so I made particular notice of the news report.
Thanks,
Kim J.
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Terminal optimisim is the lifeblood of adventure.
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arpruss
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/23/08
Posts: 853
Loc: Waco, TX
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Quote:
However, if it were aimed just one degree away from you, you wouldn't see a thing -- not even a hint. After all, the thing only has a fraction as much power as a conventional flashlight -- which would be barely visible (if at all) from 10,000 feet.
But wouldn't the concentrated part of the beam part perhaps illuminate some dust, so you would see a greenish line in the air, and might worry you're been targeted by a laser guided missile?
On a somewhat different question, while airplanes carry lights which makes it easy to avoid them (unless one does this stupid thing at a public star night: oh, look, a satellite, let me point it out; ooops! it's an airplane!), birds are hard to see unless there is light pollution, so when one points the pointer into the sky one might more easily be hitting birds, which, moreover, will typically be at a lower altitude. Is one in danger of causing serious harm to birds?
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Coulter Odyssey 13.1" split-tube
Coulter Odyssey 8"
Home-made 7.8" F/4 dobsonian travel scope
Home-made 68mm F/5.3 achro (typically used as finder on 13.1")
Skymaster 15x70
BPTs4 8x30
32mm Plossl, 30mm Rini, 27mm Kellner, 13mm Hyperion, 6mm TMB/BO Planetary, Owl 2X Barlow
Palm TX with AstroInfo and RescoViewer
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Adrian Lopez
sage
Reged: 10/22/08
Posts: 267
Loc: Puerto Rico
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Quote:
But wouldn't the concentrated part of the beam part perhaps illuminate some dust, so you would see a greenish line in the air, and might worry you're been targeted by a laser guided missile?
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this suggestion. That's just not a reasonable thing for commercial pilots to be worried about in most civilized societies, and military pilots would not be targeted using visible lasers.
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Celestron Omni XLT 120 (f/8.3) Refractor
William Optics 1.25" Dielectric Diagonal
Celestron 4, 6, 9, 15, 25, and 32mm EPs
Nikon Action Extreme 8x40 Binoculars
Canon Digital Rebel XT
RA Sweep Calculator (find objects without GoTo)
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3463
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
However, if it were aimed just one degree away from you, you wouldn't see a thing -- not even a hint. After all, the thing only has a fraction as much power as a conventional flashlight -- which would be barely visible (if at all) from 10,000 feet.
But wouldn't the concentrated part of the beam part perhaps illuminate some dust, so you would see a greenish line in the air, and might worry you're been targeted by a laser guided missile?
No, not if the beam were aimed one degree away from the pilot. That's 175 feet at a distance of 10,000 feet. But you can barely see the scattered light from a 5-mW laser if you walk even 17 feet from the person who's projecting it, much less 175 feet.
Quote:
When one points the pointer into the sky one might more easily be hitting birds, which, moreover, will typically be at a lower altitude. Is one in danger of causing serious harm to birds?
You might hit birds, especially during migration season, but the probability is mighty low. And remember again -- being hit directly in the eye at close range by a 5-mW beam when you're fully dark-adapted is seriously unpleasant -- kind of like a newbies' first view of the full Moon through the eyepiece of a telescope. But it is *not* dangerous.
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Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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Joe Lalumia
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/24/07
Posts: 3605
Loc: Rockwall, Texas, USA
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This is a really "silly" discussion. I own a 5mw laser pointer and use it from time to time at public outreach star parties. Beyond that---------- who cares. Higher powered lasers can be purchased. Just don't point them at me during a star party. Remember here in Texas we still believe you are completely free to do just about anything--- EXCEPT on my property! 
Just the ranting of an old guy.
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LX90 8" LNT, SV Nighthawk & TelePOD, SV 80/9D & M4 mount, ETX 90, Orion XT10i, 20x80 binoculars, SV-BV3s-- www.texasastro.org
"Great minds discuss ideas;Average minds discuss events;Small minds discuss people." Unknown
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Jason D
Post Laureate
Reged: 10/21/06
Posts: 3302
Loc: California
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Quote:
This is a really "silly" discussion.
I second Joe's comment.
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XT10 classic with premium optics
Tri-knob CR2 with compression rings
Round Table Platform
4.5" StarBlast
6" StarBlast6
TV EPs
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desertstars
Please stand by...
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 34559
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Quote:
Quote:
This is a really "silly" discussion.
I second Joe's comment.
It's also running around in circles, and strayed far from anything "on topic" for a beginners equipment forum. Let's give this one a rest.
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Tom W.
Collinder's Catalog
Jewels in Dark Settings
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