kfiscus
professor emeritus
Reged: 07/09/12
Loc: Albert Lea, MN, USA
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No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
#5553028 - 12/03/12 10:47 PM
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Collimation. I'm sure there will be people that disagree but I don't think we need to even mention collimation the very first time a newbie asks us for help/recommendations. I think most of us agree that collimation is important but also that it's easy. I don't think it should be entered on a newbie's pros and cons checklist- they're probably overwhelmed already. It is nowhere near important enough to sway someone away from reflectors. If collimation is going to be too-difficult a challenge for them, then stargazing is going to be a very short-lived part of their life.
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frito
sage
Reged: 10/05/12
Loc: Fremont, CA
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: kfiscus]
#5553117 - 12/03/12 11:43 PM
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while i do agree with you esp on the last part i think what your saying really only applies to F/6 and slower scopes. if a newbie was looking to start off with a 10" or 12" then collimation becomes much more important.
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Allan...
super member
Reged: 10/24/12
Loc: Penticton B.C. Canada
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: frito]
#5553146 - 12/04/12 12:01 AM
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I kind of agree with you, Kfiscus. Collimation darn near scared me like crazy at first and it wasnt until I bought a laser collimator that I really started to understand the process and was no longer afraid of doing it; plus it made is a snap. Clare
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GOLGO13
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/05/05
Loc: St. Louis area
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: Allan...]
#5553164 - 12/04/12 12:16 AM
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sometimes i feel the opposite...it is easy once your secondary mirror is good. hopefully that was the case out of the box. it helps to have good tools for it.
sometimes i feel a refractor or mak cass are better starter scopes for the non mechanical types. I think it is something to consider when choosing a scope. Just like looking at any of the plusses and minuses of scope designs.
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 Mark9473
Postmaster
Reged: 07/21/05
Loc: 51°N 4°E
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: kfiscus]
#5553337 - 12/04/12 04:29 AM
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Collimation. I'm sure there will be people that disagree but I don't think we need to even mention collimation the very first time a newbie asks us for help/recommendations.
It is nowhere near important enough to sway someone away from reflectors.
I would have agreed with you back in the day when a beginner reflector was typically f/8. Now that the scopes are typically f/5 or faster I don't agree, especially since we've all switched from buying in brick-n-mortar stores in the text town, to buying from importers who don't even open the boxes they receive from China.
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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
Reged: 06/16/04
Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: kfiscus]
#5553358 - 12/04/12 05:12 AM
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Collimation. I'm sure there will be people that disagree but I don't think we need to even mention collimation the very first time a newbie asks us for help/recommendations. I think most of us agree that collimation is important but also that it's easy. I don't think it should be entered on a newbie's pros and cons checklist- they're probably overwhelmed already. It is nowhere near important enough to sway someone away from reflectors. If collimation is going to be too-difficult a challenge for them, then stargazing is going to be a very short-lived part of their life.
I think our role is to provide information and educate, answer questions so that someone trying to choose a first scope can make a wise decision. When someone is deciding to purchase a scope, they need to know what they are getting themselves into. This needs include the minuses as well as the pluses.
I think it is important that someone purchasing a Newtonian is well aware that it will need to be collimated on a regular basis and proper collimation requires some basic tools and skills. Knowing that slower scopes are much easier to collimate also worthy of note. Like anything, it is easy once you have the tools and the skills but learning collimation can be confusing and frustrating as the many threads in this forum and in the reflector forum show.
Collimation, thermal equilibrium, propensity for dewing, coma, chromatic aberration, fast scopes and eyepieces, these are important factors that ought to enter in to someones decision. Trying to save someone from the understanding is not doing anyone a favor.
One real difficulty with forums like this is that as experienced members we have our favorites and often responses to someone's questions are highly biased by our personal choices. I love Newtonians, I love Dobsonians but I know that when I am responding to someone's question, I know they are not buying a scope for me but rather a scope for them and they need to know what they are in for.
Jon Isaacs
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sg6
sage
Reged: 02/14/10
Loc: Norfolk, UK.
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: Jon Isaacs]
#5553387 - 12/04/12 06:14 AM
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When people ask about a scope then for a reflector collimation is something that will need to be done at some time.
More relevant is the fact that they will need to also buy something to do it with. This tool necessary for maintaining the scope is not supplied as a part of the package.
Seems no point ignoring it, and will agree that it can be a concern to someone starting out. However it is a part of buying and using a reflector and getting decent views out of it, and to that extent whoever is asking should be informed of it.
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csrlice12
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/22/12
Loc: Denver, CO
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: sg6]
#5553525 - 12/04/12 08:24 AM
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I'm more in agreement with Jon and Sg6; they should know what is involved in owning/operating a newt/dob; including collimation (and Sg6 makes a good point....they normally don't provide the collimation equipment when you buy the scope, it will need to be an additional purchase.
Same on the refractor side, they should be told about the difference between Acro and APO (and the cost/performance differences), and how bright objects can have "colors" around them; they should also be told the difference between EQ and Alt/Az mounts (I truely believe setting up/operating an EQ mount is a much more daunting task then collimating a dob.) On SCTs they should be told about the narrower FOV and cooling/dew problems. If they're into AP they should be told to smile for the camera; as it'll probably be the last time they smile (especially after looking at their bank balance).
and if they're into refractors; maybe ask them what the big infatuation is with finderscopes.... 
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newtoskies
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/15/12
Loc: SE Ma.
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: csrlice12]
#5553630 - 12/04/12 09:36 AM
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I have to disagree, as a newbie myself. I must admit that when I first heard the C word it had worried me. BUT when I ordered my 6" through Orion I had checked out their video before the scope arrived. I then had an understanding of what collimation is. Yes it's only a 6", but it still needs the big C from time to time.
I think when it IS mentioned then a simple link to the Orion video, or any other, with give them an idea of what it is. It does get much easier after the first or second time.
Heck it's like owning a car, eventually you have to change the oil, or tire. I don't think that stops anyone from buying a car right. I look at it as upkeep and maintenance.
Edited by newtoskies (12/04/12 09:38 AM)
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Escher
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/30/07
Loc: Fenton, MI
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: newtoskies]
#5553761 - 12/04/12 11:06 AM
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Sorry kfiscus, but I have to disagree as well.
When I was a beginner - had I NOT been told about collimation I would have been VERY upset. Someone spending a significant amount of money needs to know all the pluses and minuses about what they are buying.
Had I been saddled with a $500 scope based on recommendations from the community, and no one warned me about how to set it up and maintain it I would have been very upset. Imagine being a new person, buying a telescope and then when you read the manual and it talks about "getting the best performance out of your telescope" and a chapter explains collimation... I would feel at least a little bit betrayed because someone thought I shouldn't worry about it as a "beginner", yet here in the manual it says its essential for the best performance!
Let the person decide what they want to worry about - and if they can't handle collimation, then they can make an educated decision.
Edited by Escher (12/04/12 11:07 AM)
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howard929
Member
Reged: 01/02/11
Loc: Low End of High Ground
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: Escher]
#5553767 - 12/04/12 11:11 AM
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+1
We're all adults here and IMO should be treated as such.
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newtoskies
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/15/12
Loc: SE Ma.
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: howard929]
#5553782 - 12/04/12 11:21 AM
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With say a 6" like mine it usually comes collimated. Mine was dead on when I got the scope. So then I went and drastically misaligned it so I could collimate it so I could learn how to do it. Took about 5 minutes to get it perfect again, and since then I have no issues with the big C.
With the video and instructions in the manual one should have no problems. IF this is a big issue then the person should think of getting a refractor instead.
I say it's part of owning a scope. After all, you would not recommend an EQ mount and not tell the person that it has to be polar aligned.....
Just my thoughts.
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howard929
Member
Reged: 01/02/11
Loc: Low End of High Ground
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: newtoskies]
#5553851 - 12/04/12 12:04 PM
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IMHO, there's no need for a new term that anyone needs to hide behind and even though I can't always spel it coreckly, collimation, collimating, is what it is.
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Maverick199
Postmaster
Reged: 02/27/11
Loc: India
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: Jon Isaacs]
#5553911 - 12/04/12 12:45 PM
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I was thinking on these lines when I read Jon's reply, so +1 too. What is necessary and which is pointed out regularly by us is that Collimation isn't difficult, its a necessity, that is all.
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GpB311
sage
Reged: 05/29/12
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: Maverick199]
#5553939 - 12/04/12 12:57 PM
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I like to make mental pro/con lists for purchases like a telescope, so I was pretty glad to be aware of what I was in for, even if it did intimidate me a little at first.
Its weird how collimation has gone from something I was worried about to a personal challenge for perfection and maximizing what I can get from what I have.
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kfiscus
professor emeritus
Reged: 07/09/12
Loc: Albert Lea, MN, USA
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: GpB311]
#5553973 - 12/04/12 01:18 PM
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We all agree that it's important. My original post said "begin" and "first" because some people seem to mention collimation in their very first response to a newbie, like that's the most important thing of all. It can sound like their choices are 'refractor or something that's awful to deal with'.
Edited by kfiscus (12/04/12 01:20 PM)
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Paco_Grande
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 07/14/12
Loc: Napa Whine Country
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: kfiscus]
#5554048 - 12/04/12 01:53 PM
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As a newbie, collimation was a tad intimidating at first, now not so. What I did find far more difficult to deal with as a newbie were statements like:
"I wouldn't recommend that scope. An f5 or faster newt is hard on eyepieces."
If one wants to help ease the head-spinning noob syndrome, construct sentences that provide clarity... For a noob, that sentence might as well be written in latin.
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Grandpa Jim
old fogey
Reged: 08/04/12
Loc: GREAT AMERICAN DESERT
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: Paco_Grande]
#5554107 - 12/04/12 02:38 PM
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Quote:
As a newbie, collimation was a tad intimidating at first, now not so. What I did find far more difficult to deal with as a newbie were statements like:
"I wouldn't recommend that scope. An f5 or faster newt is hard on eyepieces."
If one wants to help ease the head-spinning noob syndrome, construct sentences that provide clarity... For a noob, that sentence might as well be written in latin.
I AGREE!! *Clarify*........instead of just rattling off platitudes!!
Remember - we all don't know what we're doing just yet 
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killdabuddha
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/26/11
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: Grandpa Jim]
#5554127 - 12/04/12 02:51 PM
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They're always gonna ask. And good thing, cuz that's where we read how to do it and partly why we went with f/6, 2.6" secondary, etc.. Now, doin it is fun. But before the build, there were a few other things, too, that designed the scope more than we did.
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rdandrea
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 06/13/10
Loc: Colorado, USA DM59ra
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: kfiscus]
#5554174 - 12/04/12 03:25 PM
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Safer to use the "C" word here than in the Binos forum.
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Paco_Grande
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 07/14/12
Loc: Napa Whine Country
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: killdabuddha]
#5554214 - 12/04/12 04:06 PM
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They're always gonna ask. And good thing, cuz that's where we read how to do it and partly why we went with f/6, 2.6" secondary, etc.. Now, doin it is fun. But before the build, there were a few other things, too, that designed the scope more than we did.
Off the medication I see?
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Haas
sage
Reged: 11/22/12
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: rdandrea]
#5554237 - 12/04/12 04:25 PM
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As a newbie, I will say, once I heard about collimation, I was a little worried, but I you tubed it, got an idea of what it's all about, and it don't really bother me at all. Not intimidated by it, for what it's worth.
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GeneT
Ely Kid
Reged: 11/07/08
Loc: South Texas
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: kfiscus]
#5554327 - 12/04/12 05:34 PM
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After a set up and session or two, it is time to add collimation to the mix. Collimation is not all that difficult. If it is put off too long, the images will blur up and the person won't know why. As I see it, learning collimation is just one of the factors of telescope ownership like focusing, letting the mirror(s) cool down, set up, and so on.
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Meadeball
sage
Reged: 10/22/12
Loc: Midlothian, Virginia
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: killdabuddha]
#5555247 - 12/05/12 08:08 AM
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Now, doin it is fun. But before the build, there were a few other things, too, that designed the scope more than we did.
Huh? 
As a newbie, I will say, once I heard about collimation, I was a little worried, but I you tubed it, got an idea of what it's all about, and it don't really bother me at all.
Er, what ...? 
Edited by Meadeball (12/05/12 08:10 AM)
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killdabuddha
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/26/11
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: Meadeball]
#5555593 - 12/05/12 12:32 PM
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Naw Paco, Meadeball,
Still on the meds, thx.  For us, and it bein our first scope, we had to do what we could to keep everything as simple as possible. That meant homework to understand how the scope does what it does at its most basic. And as we were bino-viewin and havin to pay for things twice, we also had to keep costs down (no Paracorrs or expensive, uber-corrected EPs). Goin with f/6 got us where we needed to be, and the more forgiving collimation of a slower mirror was a big part of our decision. But I also remember recoiling at things like collimation and central obstruction initially, and wonderin whether these made a Newt an inherently inferior instrument. Glad we looked further.
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howard929
Member
Reged: 01/02/11
Loc: Low End of High Ground
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: killdabuddha]
#5555656 - 12/05/12 01:06 PM
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Collimating a Newt is no big deal. It can be done for no money invested in tools with a film can top and a star test or with $260+ in tools and everything in between. All it takes is a basic understanding of the mechanics involved. The theory behind it is a bit tougher to grasp for some of us and it's not necessary at all to know in order to get it done correctly. Parsing out the mumbo-jumbo "speak" that some people use for the real answers in plain English was, for me, an eye-opener. A 12 year old can collimate a Newt, it's that easy IMO.
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csrlice12
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/22/12
Loc: Denver, CO
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: howard929]
#5555698 - 12/05/12 01:38 PM
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with the proper tools, it's as simple as line up all the circles till they look like a target.
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lamplight
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/18/12
Loc: west central MA, U.S.
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: csrlice12]
#5556027 - 12/05/12 05:15 PM
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I just ignored any reference to"C" until id had my scopes a couple months and started to realize I could get sharper. Of course my scopes are in worse "C" than when I started but that's not the point;)
Gonna get a laser.
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Paco_Grande
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 07/14/12
Loc: Napa Whine Country
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: lamplight]
#5556462 - 12/05/12 09:25 PM
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...Of course my scopes are in worse "C" than when I started but that's not the point;)
Gonna get a laser.
Hee hee. You are soooo hooked.
Do you even use your CPC? I've used mine ONCE in 3 months. In fact, I've only used it one time period! I think it needs a new home. Having too much fun with the manual scopes. 
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lamplight
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/18/12
Loc: west central MA, U.S.
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: Paco_Grande]
#5556491 - 12/05/12 09:47 PM
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Actually phil I do use it still for quick sessions. I find it a lot easier to use and setup without power instead ofthe eq mounted scopes! I know a cps for starhopping?! It just sortofhappened that way. I even took the hand controller off so I don't damage it since inever useit.
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lamplight
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/18/12
Loc: west central MA, U.S.
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: lamplight]
#5556492 - 12/05/12 09:49 PM
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But yes, hooked. Id like to trade the 8" sct for a 11" since you brought it up. 
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killdabuddha
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 08/26/11
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: lamplight]
#5556646 - 12/05/12 11:14 PM
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I just ignored any reference to"C" until id had my scopes a couple months and started to realize I could get sharper. Of course my scopes are in worse "C" than when I started but that's not the point;)
Gonna get a laser.
 
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droid
rocketman
Reged: 08/29/04
Loc: Conneaut, Ohio
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: killdabuddha]
#5556891 - 12/06/12 04:51 AM
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My first real scope was an 8 inch f/6 Deep space explorer, Orion, circa the really early 1990s.
I purchased it after being assured by everyone that it was the perfect beginners scope, and It was ,actually, small enough to toss the scope on my shoulder ,stick the eps in my pocket, grab the base and carry it in the house.
grab and go at its biggest.
But no one told me about collimation, true enough Id heard of it in my wanderings through yahoo groups.
But I would read this galaxy, pick one lol, should be easy prey for an eight inch, or this detail should be an easy view in an eight inch, but I never could find or see them.
Then a member in a long ago dead group asked me when was the last time id collimated it, well umm, never.
For those who remember the dse scopes youll know the secondary was on a single stalk, so it was never rocket science - grab the stalk and bend it, lol. And the main mirror took an allen wrench, and it took me a while to figure it out. What I wouldnt have given to know all this at the go, the great red spot suddenly became clear, M51 was suddenly clear, and stars were perty close to dots.
So yeah Id say beginners ought to know in advance that they're new reflector will need collimation.
perhaps a beginners collimation video , with good advise might be a good idea , if one exists.
Not sure if most manufacturers sell theyre scopes with the center dots now or not?????
Edited by droid (12/06/12 04:52 AM)
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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
Reged: 06/16/04
Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: droid]
#5556957 - 12/06/12 06:52 AM
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For those who remember the dse scopes youll know the secondary was on a single stalk, so it was never rocket science - grab the stalk and bend it, lol.
I had a Pirate Instruments 8 inch F/6 with a stalk type secondary. Not the easiest way to collimate a scope. One night something went wrong as I was trying to bend it and the secondary mirror popped off and hit the floor...
Jon
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Chauncey
member
Reged: 01/06/12
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: Jon Isaacs]
#5557322 - 12/06/12 11:31 AM
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buying a laser collimator definitely helped me =)
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Paco_Grande
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 07/14/12
Loc: Napa Whine Country
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: Chauncey]
#5557432 - 12/06/12 12:22 PM
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One of the first things I bought was a laser collimator but I can't figure out how to turn it on!
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howard929
Member
Reged: 01/02/11
Loc: Low End of High Ground
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Re: No need to use the C word when newbies begin here
[Re: Paco_Grande]
#5557438 - 12/06/12 12:24 PM
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One of the first things I bought was a laser collimator but I can't figure out how to turn it on!
Didya try banging it on the wall? Works for the cat! Ahhh, you should see how a few stout whacks get 'em running around. AND if you do get that laser working, if nothing else, the cat will love it.
Edited by howard929 (12/06/12 12:35 PM)
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