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geekgroupie
sage


Reged: 01/07/12

Loc: Puebo, CO
Re: As much as I hate to admit it... [Re: Paco_Grande]
      #5714152 - 03/05/13 10:38 AM

Quote:

And then, you could just toss a towel on the ground, lay down and look up yonder. Some of the best stargazing I've ever done was at Thunderhill Raceway in Northern Calif. We'd camp there for motorcycle track days. Nice and dark, the sky is a joy there. No idea what I was looking at. All I knew was I liked it.

I fell in love with a gal from Ukraine when we were stargazing there. Then I remembered I'd been married twice before. I still love that crazy gorgeous former-Soviet scary-smart lady but I'm still single. I thank the Big Bang daily.

Sorry for the over-sharing moment.




Yes..

Edited by geekgroupie (03/05/13 10:42 AM)


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: As much as I hate to admit it... [Re: droid]
      #5714165 - 03/05/13 10:46 AM

Quote:

Ken; Ive had the same experience trying to locate something, and not finding it.
Then some one else walks over, and using my scope finds it.
I simply ask them to explain to me , in laymens terms lol, how they did that.
M81 and 82 were my bug a boo, now I find them easily.
The viel is my current road block, waiting for some one to come teach me...where are they




The Veil is relatively straightforward, the western part is centered on 52 Cygni which can be found by following gamma to epsilon Cygni and then moving onto to 52. With an O-III filter, a low power, wide field eyepiece and reasonably dark skies, it should just pop into view. Then for the eastern Veil, it's about 2.5 degrees east. There are interesting pieces between the two as well.

When conditions have been ideal, I have seen the Veil from my urban red/white zone backyard. It's easier with my 10 inch dob but I did see it with my 4 inch F/5.4 refractor, an O-III filter is a must from less than dark skies.

Jon


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hfjacinto
I think he's got it!
*****

Reged: 01/12/09

Loc: Land of clouds and LP
Re: As much as I hate to admit it... [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5714196 - 03/05/13 10:59 AM

Both my mounts are goto and there are many times, I do over 20 objects in one night. You also can't image without goto (as you can't look through the eyepiece). So for my scopes its goto.

But last night as an example I put out a beach chair and just sat down with a 15X50 Canon IS binoculars. I started off at M44 went to M67, then M42, the the Auriga clusters (M36, M37, M38) went back to M42 and then before packing up the double clusters, the owl cluster and back to M42 and Orions belt.

I don't need goto, but I like to look at various objects and I also like cruising the sky.

This is a hobby, there is no reason for disliking or liking goto. If you use it great, if you don't great. Do what you like, but don't criticize what others do.


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kenrenard
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/13/12

Loc: Dunmore, PA
Re: As much as I hate to admit it... [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5714202 - 03/05/13 11:02 AM

The obstacle is the path! After trying something several times and then that final Eureka moment of finally viewing it!
I watch a woman in our club who is a very skilled star hopper with 30 years under her belt. I marvel at the way she tours the sky pointing out where things are. While I stand in awe dumbfounded by her prowess.
I imagine watching Jon is the same way. I can only hope to hone my skills for 25 more years to get to a point where some experienced folks are.

I've had many a magical evening with some gentle prodding that I was close to keep looking your in the right area go back to your chart and look a little closer. The I call over I think I have something! Yep you got it!

Ken


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jerwin
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 05/17/12

Loc: Romeoville IL
Re: As much as I hate to admit it... [Re: OneGear]
      #5714224 - 03/05/13 11:10 AM

Quote:

[shakes head]

GoTo is useless when there is a building in the way, or you can't see said star because of a stray cloud. If you bought a telescope to "see stars" thinking that some computerized thing is going remedy your ignorance of the heavens requires a particular kind of naÔve.

I read so many times on here and other sites how important GoTo is for folks under city lights, but only on this forum do I notice the lack of complaints regarding GoTo. Makes a man wonder where the paychecks are coming from.

GoTo is utterly useless for me. I live in the heart of the city and anyone who thinks GoTo would be ideal for my situation possesses a special class of stupidity that has no polite name.

I starhop because that is the only way I can navigate the heavens. I can't see all of any constellation but I can see some of the stars naked eye. With binoculars I can see most of them and can then navigate to objects and stars I could never see naked-eye from my window. W T F help is GoTo when I have a literal window for observing? There is a ceiling between me and GoTo's favorite star, stop asking me to center it.

Just seems like malicious ignorance to tell folks that GoTo will solve all their problems without addressing the issue - most people don't know Mirach from Polaris and couldn't see both from the same location anyway if they are street-level in their backyard.

A horse and buggy will get you there, but a guy who pretends his GoTo never makes him work the whole night trying to get it aligned is a damn liar.

IMHO, GoTo in the city is a waste of money. Learning to recognize the bright stars one can see and identify the visible planets and their relationship to constellations trumps GoTo when you don't have 360 degrees of unobstructed horizon.

If you have 360 degrees of unobstructed horizon and use GoTo rather than learn the stars, I just shake my head. It's like telling people you are a marathon runner but ride in a wheelchair while you pay some guy to push you 26 miles. And excuse it because "you haven't trained, but they have people who will push you. What's the difference?"




I think your opinion is way off base. I set my CPC up with any 2 stars at the beginning of the night and don't touch it again the rest of the night. I'm not a liar and anyone that thinks I am is a damn fool. I don't need 360 degrees of the sky to do the alignment, I'm not an idiot, I'm not special, I'm not any of the other things you might think I am. If you can't see Polaris and went with an EQ goto mount, that's not the mounts fault. There's an expression that I'll tweak for astronomy\family friendly purposes. Opinions are like Uranus. Everyone's got one and some are louder than others. You can view however you want to view, no one cares, but I'm not going to let you sit there and mock how I view the night sky. This is all about the love of the night sky, and anyway you want to view it is ok with me, why isnít it ok for you?

Jim


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rdandrea
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 06/13/10

Loc: Colorado, USA DM59ra
Re: As much as I hate to admit it... [Re: OneGear]
      #5714240 - 03/05/13 11:27 AM

Quote:

[GoTo is useless when there is a building in the way, or you can't see said star because of a stray cloud.




This is utter poppycock. The sky from my yard is more than half obscured by trees. If I can't see the alignment star my CG-5 is offering, I just choose a different one.


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Tim Gilliland
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/28/09

Loc: Sand Springs Okla.
Re: As much as I hate to admit it... [Re: jerwin]
      #5714248 - 03/05/13 11:32 AM

Quote:

Quote:

[shakes head]

GoTo is useless when there is a building in the way, or you can't see said star because of a stray cloud. If you bought a telescope to "see stars" thinking that some computerized thing is going remedy your ignorance of the heavens requires a particular kind of naÔve.

I read so many times on here and other sites how important GoTo is for folks under city lights, but only on this forum do I notice the lack of complaints regarding GoTo. Makes a man wonder where the paychecks are coming from.

GoTo is utterly useless for me. I live in the heart of the city and anyone who thinks GoTo would be ideal for my situation possesses a special class of stupidity that has no polite name.

I starhop because that is the only way I can navigate the heavens. I can't see all of any constellation but I can see some of the stars naked eye. With binoculars I can see most of them and can then navigate to objects and stars I could never see naked-eye from my window. W T F help is GoTo when I have a literal window for observing? There is a ceiling between me and GoTo's favorite star, stop asking me to center it.

Just seems like malicious ignorance to tell folks that GoTo will solve all their problems without addressing the issue - most people don't know Mirach from Polaris and couldn't see both from the same location anyway if they are street-level in their backyard.

A horse and buggy will get you there, but a guy who pretends his GoTo never makes him work the whole night trying to get it aligned is a damn liar.

IMHO, GoTo in the city is a waste of money. Learning to recognize the bright stars one can see and identify the visible planets and their relationship to constellations trumps GoTo when you don't have 360 degrees of unobstructed horizon.

If you have 360 degrees of unobstructed horizon and use GoTo rather than learn the stars, I just shake my head. It's like telling people you are a marathon runner but ride in a wheelchair while you pay some guy to push you 26 miles. And excuse it because "you haven't trained, but they have people who will push you. What's the difference?"




I think your opinion is way off base. I set my CPC up with any 2 stars at the beginning of the night and don't touch it again the rest of the night. I'm not a liar and anyone that thinks I am is a damn fool. I don't need 360 degrees of the sky to do the alignment, I'm not an idiot, I'm not special, I'm not any of the other things you might think I am. If you can't see Polaris and went with an EQ goto mount, that's not the mounts fault. There's an expression that I'll tweak for astronomy\family friendly purposes. Opinions are like Uranus. Everyone's got one and some are louder than others. You can view however you want to view, no one cares, but I'm not going to let you sit there and mock how I view the night sky. This is all about the love of the night sky, and anyway you want to view it is ok with me, why isnít it ok for you?

Jim




Ditto


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mountain monk
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 11/06/09

Loc: Grand Teton National Park
Re: As much as I hate to admit it... [Re: jerwin]
      #5714276 - 03/05/13 11:45 AM

Jon,

Wonderful posts. In most of the marvelous areas of life, efficiency is overrated---sex, food, hot showers, fishing, observing.... But then everyone seems to be in a hurry--gerbil life.

Thanks.

Dark skies.

Jack


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: As much as I hate to admit it... [Re: hfjacinto]
      #5714358 - 03/05/13 12:29 PM

Quote:

You also can't image without goto (as you can't look through the eyepiece).




People imaged long before there was GOTO and they still image without it, I am not much of an imager but when I image, I use a manual mount. Finding the object, there are several techniques. Using a finder, use the guide scope, remove the camera and insert an eyepiece, they all work.

Jon


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Paco_Grande
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 07/14/12

Loc: Banana Republic of California
Re: As much as I hate to admit it... [Re: geekgroupie]
      #5714374 - 03/05/13 12:37 PM

Quote:



Yes..




Texas MotoGP event at Circuit of the Americas is next month!



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Escher
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 08/30/07

Loc: Fenton, MI
Re: As much as I hate to admit it... [Re: Tim Gilliland]
      #5714475 - 03/05/13 01:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

[shakes head]

GoTo is useless when [insert verbose flamage here]




I think your opinion is way off base. I set my CPC up with any 2 stars at the beginning of the night and don't touch it again the rest of the night. I'm not a liar and anyone that thinks I am is a damn fool. I don't need 360 degrees of the sky to do the alignment, I'm not an idiot, I'm not special, I'm not any of the other things you might think I am. If you can't see Polaris and went with an EQ goto mount, that's not the mounts fault. There's an expression that I'll tweak for astronomy\family friendly purposes. Opinions are like Uranus. Everyone's got one and some are louder than others. You can view however you want to view, no one cares, but I'm not going to let you sit there and mock how I view the night sky. This is all about the love of the night sky, and anyway you want to view it is ok with me, why isnít it ok for you?

Jim




Ditto




+1 here as well..

The point is - as Larry (the OP)said in his opening remarks - we can't judge someone elses experience. If Goto works for you - sweet. If Star hopping is your thing - that's cool as well..

But to make broad statements denigrating one observing style just because you don't agree - well, that's what is naive.

I tried for years to star hop, but my severe light pollution coupled with my eyesight really limited me... Should I have just given up and gave my equipment to a "more deserving" person?

Hopefully you were just having a bad day - happens to all of us, me included... but don't alienate an entire group of folks just because they don't fit in your specific mold..


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: As much as I hate to admit it... [Re: Escher]
      #5714551 - 03/05/13 02:03 PM

Quote:


I tried for years to star hop, but my severe light pollution coupled with my eyesight really limited me...




In an ideal world, everyone would have the equipment that best suited them. If someone finds wandering around the sky stumbling upon interesting new objects and/or starhopping frustrating, and disappointing, hopefully they could avoid it with DSCs, GOTO, whatever.

But I think it's also important to make it clear, particularly in a beginners forum, that there are those of us who truly enjoy these things, they are not tasks of frustration, they are an important part of the observing experience, a joyful part.

Not long ago I picked up a Nexstar 5, I had been looking for another C-5 and this one popped up at a good price. I did the GOTO thing a couple of nights, it works and it's kind of neat the way it does all that stuff but I realize the time has come to remove it from the mount and use it the way I like to use a scope, just me and the scope, a simple mount and the night sky...

Jon


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michael hester
professor emeritus


Reged: 11/28/08

Re: As much as I hate to admit it... [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5714845 - 03/05/13 04:39 PM

Yeah. Go-to means the difference between a washed out soup of a sky you can't find anything in and a sky that has hidden treasures waiting for you to find at the push of a button.
Sadly the good bulk of young people are in suburbs with horrible light pollution. This prevents the sky from being brilliant to look at and makes finding even the most prominent objects a strong challenge. Having a go-to or push-to computer on your scope gives you a second expert opinion to confirm that you're actually seeing the thing you're looking for and in some cases even determines if you actually see it. Just having confirmation that your scope is in the right spot helps you see the object for the first time.


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Achernar
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
Re: As much as I hate to admit it... [Re: michael hester]
      #5715055 - 03/05/13 06:32 PM

That is why I no longer think of GOTO mountings or digital setting circles as a gimmick, they are darn near a must for many folks who live in or near urban areas. If you can't see stars to starhop by, there is no way to find objects either by star hopping.

Taras


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GeneT
Ely Kid
*****

Reged: 11/07/08

Loc: South Texas
Re: As much as I hate to admit it... [Re: orion61]
      #5715081 - 03/05/13 06:46 PM

Quote:

Still my old RV6 gave (and still gives)me untold pleasure.




These were and still are great telescopes!


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: As much as I hate to admit it... [Re: michael hester]
      #5715101 - 03/05/13 06:54 PM

Quote:

Yeah. Go-to means the difference between a washed out soup of a sky you can't find anything in and a sky that has hidden treasures waiting for you to find at the push of a button....





Michael:

You did reply to my post and you did seeming say that a washed out sky would keep me from finding anything. This is not true, if it is visible, I will find it.

But more importantly, it also true that a washed out sky does not keep a determined, curious beginner from finding those hidden gems, scattered about the night sky. It is really a question of attitude and interest and having the right equipment. When John Kuroaka came over for an evening under the stars in my Mag 4 backyard, he had that interest and determination and located some interesting, challenging targets and learned (I hope) ways to find more.

There is no doubt that a decent quality GOTO scope can short circuit the need to develop the skills to find one's way around a light polluted sky but that does not mean it cannot be done, it just means it's more challenging.

So, again it comes back to knowing ones self, knowing what one enjoys doing. I don't consider myself a particularly skilled observer, not like Tony Flanders or David Knisely. But I do know that, rather than investing in electronics and motors, one can invest is better finders, telescopes that are optimized for finding faint targets under difficult conditions and there is a two fold benefit at the eyepiece.

There is no need for an excuse to use GOTO, just use it. My concern is that by making such explanations, the implication is that GOTO is necessary for observing under significantly light polluted skies.

Jon Isaacs


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: As much as I hate to admit it... [Re: Achernar]
      #5715245 - 03/05/13 07:58 PM

Quote:

That is why I no longer think of GOTO mountings or digital setting circles as a gimmick, they are darn near a must for many folks who live in or near urban areas. If you can't see stars to starhop by, there is no way to find objects either by star hopping.

Taras




A 4 inch F/6 refractor can provide a finder-like 4 degree field of view. Even with seriously light polluted skies such a rig offers plenty of guide stars.

Jon


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GOLGO13
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/05/05

Loc: St. Louis area
Re: As much as I hate to admit it... [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5715246 - 03/05/13 07:58 PM

This is pretty much true. Certainly the combination of a telrad or rigel quick finder and a 8x40 or 9x50 finder should make many objects findable in most light polluted skies. But it can still be frustrating and seem not worth the effort. And some may say then they are not work observing in those skies. That's not always the case. Planetary nebulas especially are fun to observe. A few I have found hard to find without some help. Either way we are likely using help. Whether it's a star atlas, an app on our smart phones, a software package, telrad charts (my favorite) etc.

Observing the objects themselves is the most important thing to me.

For Onegear: The Nexstar 5i (previous version of the 5SE) had a feature where it would not suggest stars or objects below a specified degree of the sky. So for instance, I also have a limited sky window. So I set it to not suggest objects below 35 degrees. (some of my sky is worse than that, but that happens). If you cannot see enough bright stars for a two star alignment, I would suggest a new observing spot. That's got to be darn limited for even doing star hopping.

As much as I defend go to and push to...I have not used it since summer time. My intelliscope hand controller doesn't like the cold and I haven't felt the need to keep it warm some way. I either observe what I know or I get out the telrad charts. Quite frankly, I don't really care how I find the objects as long as I find them.

I also don't have a lot of time to observe...so I try to be pretty efficient. If I have the "push to" going I can observe 20-30 objects in an hour (unless I spend more time on an object). If I use what I know I observe 7-10 objects depending on the season. If I use the star charts I probably observe 10-12 in an hour provided I found them.

I do think some darker skies help. Heck, in dark skies you can just point at anything that looks interesting. If I have my push to on, I can write down the coordinates (it also has an "ID" feature which tries to figure out what the object is, or another bright one near by).

However people enjoy the hobby it's a good thing. I may not be observing still if I wouldn't have had a go to and push to scope when I did early on.

A lot of learning the sky is understanding sizes of objects. That was a big learning curve for me. Also the fact that I wasn't going to see most galaxies in my skies. I sometimes questioned whether my electronics were working...but it was just me not understanding the limitations of the scope in light polluted skies.


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Pak
super member
*****

Reged: 09/15/12

Loc: The Great Arc
Re: As much as I hate to admit it... [Re: GOLGO13]
      #5715259 - 03/05/13 08:08 PM

We don't need computers, cars, cell phones, televisions, the electric light bulb, interior plumbing, and least of all modern medicine. If you guys all want to live in the stone age by all means do so. I prefer to sit here in my recliner in my modern day home with central heating and air while watching my LED LCD flat panel tv and remotely controlling my go-to telescope and keeping an eye on my sub exposures on my laptop computer.

It's progress folks. If you don't like it, you don't have to join us but don't criticize those of us that do.


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orion61

*****

Reged: 10/20/07

Loc: Birthplace James T Kirk
Re: As much as I hate to admit it... [Re: hfjacinto]
      #5715323 - 03/05/13 08:45 PM

Quote:

Both my mounts are goto and there are many times, I do over 20 objects in one night. You also can't image without goto (as you can't look through the eyepiece). So for my scopes its goto.

But last night as an example I put out a beach chair and just sat down with a 15X50 Canon IS binoculars. I started off at M44 went to M67, then M42, the the Auriga clusters (M36, M37, M38) went back to M42 and then before packing up the double clusters, the owl cluster and back to M42 and Orions belt.

I don't need goto, but I like to look at various objects and I also like cruising the sky.

This is a hobby, there is no reason for disliking or liking goto. If you use it great, if you don't great. Do what you like, but don't criticize what others do.




I can image without Go-To, simply have a flip mirror and parfocal eyepiece.
Unless your scope is a type that has limited focus travel.
Chalk another one up for a Compount Telescope "Schmidt Cass"
Myself I get bored to death when I go all Auto, after about 1/2 hr its about all I can take.
BUT like everything else time marches on, Technology moves on too.
The main thing is to keep the hobby going and the first few experiences with a scope will probably make or break it
for a new Astronomer!
I have talked to newer members who actually went backward, useing Go-To first, THEN manually searching, No surprise
they said the time went faster while Star Hopping!
There is one thing we can all agree on here... We disagree!
Thanks for making this an enjoyable read for the Beginners, to give options and experiences newer members may not have gotten without this thread, that was my purpose starting it.
I thank you all for your knowledge, and opinions.
We are here for them remember.....


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