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jca345
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Reged: 09/06/13

Loc: SE Pennsylvania
Apo Refractor vs. Questar
      #6217606 - 11/26/13 04:45 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THV1OEKqw98

*BLEEP*...

I love my Apo, but I wouldn't turn down a nice view through anything!


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Geo31
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 01/28/13

Loc: Kingwood, TX
Re: Apo Refractor vs. Questar new [Re: jca345]
      #6217881 - 11/26/13 07:01 PM

OMG, that's about right.

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GOLGO13
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Reged: 11/05/05

Loc: St. Louis area
Re: Apo Refractor vs. Questar new [Re: jca345]
      #6218639 - 11/27/13 05:31 AM

That is a classic. I think it would be cool to have a questar, but it's pretty hard to drop a lot of money on one new or used. Almost more of a piece of art to me than something I would regularly use.

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A6Q6
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/31/11

Loc: Stroudsburg,Pa,U.S.A
Re: Apo Refractor vs. Questar new [Re: jca345]
      #6219605 - 11/27/13 03:08 PM

Yes, it is a classic that's always fun to watch.

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StarStuff1
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Reged: 04/01/07

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Re: Apo Refractor vs. Questar new [Re: A6Q6]
      #6219992 - 11/27/13 06:13 PM

The first time I looked through a Questar was about 30 years ago. Seeing a diffraction ring around Regulus with such a small scope was an unexpected treat.

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Billytk
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 04/22/12

Loc: Lake Mary, Fl.
Re: Apo Refractor vs. Questar new [Re: StarStuff1]
      #6220121 - 11/27/13 07:18 PM Attachment (24 downloads)

I had one briefly. It was beautiful.

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Eric P
sage
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Reged: 04/04/05

Re: Apo Refractor vs. Questar new [Re: jca345]
      #6221775 - 11/28/13 03:53 PM

lol... I made that a few years ago. Literally scripted from the endless bickering on the old SAA news group.

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kkokkolisModerator
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Reged: 09/23/09

Loc: Piraeus, Greece
Re: Apo Refractor vs. Questar new [Re: Eric P]
      #6221822 - 11/28/13 04:05 PM

On that video I see what we should never do with beginners.
We are all beginners one way or another as we evolve in the hoobby and we expand our activities in several branches of it.


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dyslexic nam
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Reged: 01/28/08

Loc: PEI, Canada
Re: Apo Refractor vs. Questar new [Re: kkokkolis]
      #6222011 - 11/28/13 05:29 PM

That is pretty funny. Though my kids were (and still are) looking over my shoulder and were a bit disappointed...

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WOBentleyModerator
Deep Sky Denizen
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Reged: 09/16/09

Loc: Pacific Northwest USA
Re: Apo Refractor vs. Questar new [Re: dyslexic nam]
      #6222204 - 11/28/13 07:32 PM

I agree that as an experienced adult it is somewhat funny, but it needs to be seen as an example of how not to approach Astronomy for Beginners IMHO.

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Paco_Grande
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Reged: 07/14/12

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Re: Apo Refractor vs. Questar new [Re: WOBentley]
      #6222380 - 11/28/13 09:25 PM

I don't find the video humorous at all. No one in their right mind would hold such a conversation, and if they did, well, I say you need to get a life. No one cares what kind of telescope you own!

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orion61

*****

Reged: 10/20/07

Loc: Birthplace James T Kirk
Re: Apo Refractor vs. Questar new [Re: Paco_Grande]
      #6222449 - 11/28/13 10:09 PM

WELL, Tho it's not a great thing here in the beginners, I find it to be astonishingly true! I believe I laughed my way through that thread.. Unfortunately in life, there are those that live to rub it in to people who have "less". My car is more expensive, my House is bigger etc." It is even worse in the Camera forums. That video really hit a home run to me.
It is too bad it offends some people, but I have actually had my old 8" F6 Meade Sono-tube Newtonian LAUGHED AT, and made fun of, by a person like that at a Star party! Even tho it blew away the views through their scope.. I have owned both a Questar and an expensive APO, they are flat out beautiful!
I couldn't justify the cost per inch of performance.
And like someone said, "It is pretty heartbreaking, seeing a Refractor you would die to own, being used as a Finder on a large Dob" That is a direct quote.
Unfortunately our Society applauds Narcissistic, materialistic, tendency..
That video was just plain FUNNY, it's just a good thing the VAST majority of people here don't act like that!
But it does prepare newcomers for a lesson in life.


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Vondragonnoggin
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Reged: 02/21/10

Loc: Southern CA, USA
Re: Apo Refractor vs. Questar new [Re: Paco_Grande]
      #6222519 - 11/28/13 11:06 PM

Quote:

I don't find the video humorous at all. No one in their right mind would hold such a conversation, and if they did, well, I say you need to get a life. No one cares what kind of telescope you own!




Haha. You don't visit the refractor and questar forums then. That was typical convo. I find the video funny because it is really mirroring some threads I've seen.


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rdandrea
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Reged: 06/13/10

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Re: Apo Refractor vs. Questar new [Re: Vondragonnoggin]
      #6222594 - 11/29/13 12:13 AM

Quote:

I find the video funny because it is really mirroring some threads I've seen.




Yep.


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Zedwardson
member


Reged: 11/26/13

Re: Apo Refractor vs. Questar new [Re: rdandrea]
      #6222624 - 11/29/13 12:34 AM

Funny enough, if you where to get the same views from a $400 dollar scope, and a $4000 dollar Scope, I would be more impressed with the $400 dollar one.

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SpooPoker
sage
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Reged: 06/04/13

Loc: North Bay CA
Re: Apo Refractor vs. Questar new [Re: Zedwardson]
      #6222751 - 11/29/13 02:39 AM

*** Happy Thanksgiving folks from a tipsy man at a keyboard. I am supposed to be going outside to look at Jupiter, my wife says it is good seeing but I prefer a good old rant ****

Quote:

WELL, Tho it's not a great thing here in the beginners, I find it to be astonishingly true! I believe I laughed my way through that thread.. Unfortunately in life, there are those that live to rub it in to people who have "less". My car is more expensive, my House is bigger etc." It is even worse in the Camera forums. That video really hit a home run to me.
It is too bad it offends some people, but I have actually had my old 8" F6 Meade Sono-tube Newtonian LAUGHED AT, and made fun of, by a person like that at a Star party! Even tho it blew away the views through their scope.. I have owned both a Questar and an expensive APO, they are flat out beautiful!
I couldn't justify the cost per inch of performance.
And like someone said, "It is pretty heartbreaking, seeing a Refractor you would die to own, being used as a Finder on a large Dob" That is a direct quote.
Unfortunately our Society applauds Narcissistic, materialistic, tendency..
That video was just plain FUNNY, it's just a good thing the VAST majority of people here don't act like that!
But it does prepare newcomers for a lesson in life.




It is a disgrace that someone shows another disrespect over something as vainglorious as equipment.

It is very very common problem with folks that get a branded item and then try turn it into a religion, vangloriously telling others to follow suit, etc etc...

In archery 3D, I was shooting with an old 2005 bow and got ribbed that my bow was a piece of "insert expletive". You have to shoot Mathews or Bowtech he says. Guns = same deal, my gun is bigger than yours. My truck is bigger than yours. I even once lived in a neighborhood where I carefully landscaped my front lawn and within 6 weeks at least two other neighbors followed suit with something more elaborate - I suppose one cannot exist on this little planet unless you are showing yourself to be one better / one up on another. I can understand this attitude / dog eat dog mentality when professional careers are at stake, but outside of "survival instinct", what does it matter if someone has a nicer garden or truck or rifle or telescope than another?

There is also a placebo like effect involved in luxury goods / purchases (or what is considered by ones peers as being the cream of the crop). I just finished reading a pile of drivel about how one fellow paid a large amount of money on a Unitron (a well respected vintage brand marketing Japanese made long focal length achromats). Pleased as punch, he went on about how great this scope was and how utterly fabulous the images appeared through the eyepiece, rubbing the noses of those reading about how these images were running neck and neck with the best scopes of today and yesteryear. The scope? A 50mm achromat, a complete waste of metal, plastic and glass Unitron sold as a kids scope back in the 1950's. Needless to say, fueled by a "Model Railway Club" mentality, happy at his score (because he has it and few other people have it), he conveys asinine misconceptions to the public that somehow a 50mm Unitron is worthwhile to own. I believe him that the images were wonderful - it is like a placebo effect. He paid a bunch of money on an old kid's scope, he was convinced beforehand that Unitron represented the best out there, and henceforth his observations would confirm his beliefs. I have looked through a variety of Unitron's, and outside of their 6" f/15, 4" f/15 and 76mm f/16, all of their scopes are totally overrated. The 50mm scope they marketed was absolutely awful and virtually unusable. The 60mm model 114 was also a particularly poor scope.

Quote:

Funny enough, if you where to get the same views from a $400 dollar scope, and a $4000 dollar Scope, I would be more impressed with the $400 dollar one.




I would expect the optics and focuser to be better in a more expensive scope. Whether the stars / objects will see a $3600 difference is another matter - maybe slightly better maybe not. Such expensive rigs, particularly at small aperture, are perhaps more inclined towards astrophotography where details are shown that the human eye cannot detect. I only say this because I did a bit of observing through a guy's 4" Takahashi APO and while the quality and images were wonderful through the eyepiece, I was not convinced this 4" scope really was much better than other cheaper 4" examples out there (i.e. an Orion 4" ED). Perhaps in better than 1" seeing or astrophotography the high end Takahashi may flex its muscles a little better than the much cheaper Orion.

Brand names, one must be careful. A lot of the cost is not on the craftmanship or components. Example, go to Saks, grab a Gucci suit costing $3K. You will notice it is a quality suit but... go to a Brooks Brother store, grab a Golden Fleece suit (not seen in brand *BLEEP* circles as being a major luxury brand) marked at $1.8K and note that the suit has the same quality. Easy to tell - look at the material (what kind of wool), the pick stitching, the canvassing, and it is quickly apparent the Brooks Brothers and Gucci suit are made to the same standard, except one costing a heck of a lot less than the other at retail. We will ignore the aesthetic aspects such as cut, lapel style, venting, and fit in this example.

Brand Names :- the workmanship and craft may be first rate, but another brand can match that for far cheaper. It begs the question where did the overhead go?

I am sure the same analogy applies to telescopes. That is not to say a Takahashi or Astrophysics is not worth the investment or have their equals, but it would not surprise me if both companies were selling something that could be made to same standard at half the price. Both are name brands, make no question about it. Astronomers want an Astrophysics for the same reason a banker wants a $7K Hermes suit or Louis Vuitton Briefcase. Great quality and craftmanship, but totally and utterly overpriced. It is pure branding and the customer is paying to wear / use that brand. An optician could hypothetically be so skilled so as to blow the quality to another prestigious level - yet many astronomer's would rather use the branded equipment that all their friends and peers are telling them to get. The way it goes, even if practically it makes no sense.

I would be highly interested in a poll: Takahashi have a high quality scope figured to 1/30wave ever so slightly undercorrected for example. Mark, a small bespoke maker in London, has a similar scope figured to 1/100th wave and perfectly corrected. Both scopes have similar quality build(i.e. focuser, metal, flocking, baffles etc). Price wise, Mark's scope sells for $2500, and Takahashi's scope retails at $3900. My bet would be at least 80% of folks would go to the brand name, even though Mark's scope is cheaper and better.


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drago
sage


Reged: 01/11/08

Loc: Latvia
Re: Apo Refractor vs. Questar new [Re: orion61]
      #6222801 - 11/29/13 04:20 AM

very agree with you

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drago
sage


Reged: 01/11/08

Loc: Latvia
Re: Apo Refractor vs. Questar new [Re: SpooPoker]
      #6222808 - 11/29/13 04:29 AM

you write very large texts.
all that can be say very short: tendency to flaunt, boast based on a goods they have, in a very large degree, is a plebes, negligible, small peoples attribute. he measure all to a money or social statuses, because he not have and cannot imagine any another.
and there is also a great thing - a Sturgeon's Law - "ninety percent of everything is *BLEEP*." - it is work on peoples too. sadly, but that's it this world...


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A6Q6
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/31/11

Loc: Stroudsburg,Pa,U.S.A
Re: Apo Refractor vs. Questar new [Re: SpooPoker]
      #6222834 - 11/29/13 05:13 AM

Man, there is nothing like a Questar or Brandon thread to get people going. You'd think they were related. But wait! Questar uses Brandon eyepieces. We will never change how others act toward each other. But you and I can only try to do our best. It seems the quality of optics from a $400 dob from China have been very good lately. But the telescope can be the size of a hot water heater. The Quester is the closest thing to having something you can put in you back pocket. I don't see much difference in the cry, "get a dob get a dob" for every answer about what telescope to buy, then if I said get a Questar. Its a point of view.

Edited by A6Q6 (11/29/13 05:19 AM)


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Apo Refractor vs. Questar new [Re: A6Q6]
      #6222900 - 11/29/13 07:13 AM

Quote:

I don't see much difference in the cry, "get a dob get a dob" for every answer about what telescope to buy, then if I said get a Questar.




The difficulty with the Questar is that as a telescope, it is very expensive for what you get. A 90mm Maksutov-Cassegrain, no matter how perfect, is still a 90mm Maksutov Cassegrain with limited resolution, limited field of view, limited contrast.

jon


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