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Ed Kessler
professor emeritus
  
Reged: 05/17/06
Posts: 749
Loc: Millersburg, PA
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Hello,
I just came home from the Black Forest Star Party where I noticed that Howie Glatter sells deep sky filters for binoculars. They are mounted in round disks (that look like washers) and are placed between the eyecups and the lenses on binoculars. Has anyone used these who could report on their performance?
Does any other vendor provide deep sky filters for binocs?
Thanks, Ed Kessler
-------------------- Ed Kessler
sic itur ad astra (Just to look profound!)
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
   
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14686
Loc: Hurricane Alley
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Sounds interesting. Are they on the Howie Glatter website? I don't recall seeing them there. I've always been fascinated with trying to use filters on a big binoculars. I tried using a UHC filter in conjunction with my 100mm binocular and had mixed results.
But, I'd be interested in hearing about others' experiences with binoculars and filters.
Clear dark skies...
MikeG
-------------------- Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!
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Ed Kessler
professor emeritus
  
Reged: 05/17/06
Posts: 749
Loc: Millersburg, PA
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I haven't been able to find any reference to them on the web. I know he makes them; I've seen the things!
Ed
-------------------- Ed Kessler
sic itur ad astra (Just to look profound!)
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
   
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14686
Loc: Hurricane Alley
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Do you recall how much they were selling for? And are they standard 1.25" filters fitted into a bushing/washer of some sort like this :
Clear dark skies...
MikeG
-------------------- Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!
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Ed Kessler
professor emeritus
  
Reged: 05/17/06
Posts: 749
Loc: Millersburg, PA
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I think he was selling them for $100. They were mounted in washers that fit beneath the eyecup which holds them in place. He had a variety of sizes to fit different binocs. They were quite flat. It looked like he glued the filters to the round washers. They didn't appear quite as thick as in your photo.
-------------------- Ed Kessler
sic itur ad astra (Just to look profound!)
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
   
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14686
Loc: Hurricane Alley
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I assume that is $100 each right? Any idea what kind of filters are being used? Broadband, narrowband, OIII...? And does he use a specific brand like Lumicon, Thousand Oaks, etc?
I'd be interested in adding a pair to my growing Xmas list !They will make a good match for my Obie/Garrett 22x85IF Series-8 Kunming bino. (*nudge nudge wink wink*)
Clear dark skies...
MikeG
-------------------- Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!
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Ed Kessler
professor emeritus
  
Reged: 05/17/06
Posts: 749
Loc: Millersburg, PA
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Sorry, Mike, I don't have any more details. I think they were $100 for the pair!! But I may be wrong on that.
-------------------- Ed Kessler
sic itur ad astra (Just to look profound!)
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Phillip Creed
Idiot Seeking Village
   
Reged: 07/25/06
Posts: 1033
Loc: NE Ohio
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Ed,
$100 per PAIR? I am SOOOOOO buying these things for my 25x100s. I can't wait to let that combo loose on IC 1396.
Clear Narrowband-Enhanced Skies, Phil
-------------------- "Why suffer from insanity when you can revel in it?"
Wilderness Center Astronomy Club member since 1995
ICQ Comet Observer Code: CRE01
*****
16" f/4.5 Truss Dobsonian (FOR SALE!!)
Orion 120mm ST Refractor
23mm Axiom LX
13mm Nagler Type 6
9mm Nagler Type 6
1.75X Siebert Barlow
*****
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
   
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14686
Loc: Hurricane Alley
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For $100 a pair, that is $50 per filter plus the labor to prepare it for bino use - even if that is just a little adhesive and a washer. Quality filters usually retail for almost double that, assuming a standard 1.25" filter. I just wonder what kind of filters are being used when the pair is being sold for $100. Now, if they are $100 each, that makes a little more sense. But heck, why should I complain if they work? I'm a cheapskate and would much rather pay $50 each than $100 each.
I did a little research on this subject a while back, and I read accounts of people using OIII filters with some success and others using broadband LPR filters with some success. I tried placing a Celestron UHC narrowband filter over one eyepiece of my 25x100 Skymaster - the results were mixed. On M42, I did notice increased nebulosity, but the surrounding view was drastically darkened - a trade off that resulted in zero net gain, aesthetically speaking, IMO.
Clear dark skies...
MikeG
-------------------- Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!
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Rick
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/12/05
Posts: 2574
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
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Quote:
On M42, I did notice increased nebulosity, but the surrounding view was drastically darkened
Not to be glib Mike, but that is what a narrowband filter is supposed to do. I dims or blacks out the surrounding star field, only letting the nebula's spectrum to pass.
clear skies, Rick
-------------------- www.japanastro.com
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
   
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14686
Loc: Hurricane Alley
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Rick -
No problem, it seems obvious now. It took an "I told you so" or two (or five) before I learned to keep my expectations realistic. That was my problem with the UHC-binocular experiment - I had completely unrealistic expectations, fed in part by the misleading advertisments for deep sky and nebula filters that have the "no filter" and "with filter" photos. I was expectating a more dramatically positive effect, and I underestimated the amount of darkening the entire field would suffer. In a large aperture scope, say 8" or more, brighter field stars will shine through the filter? Correct? So the nebulosity is not the ONLY thing visible, depending on the object and field, correct? For example, if viewing the Cone Nebula with a filter, would the associated Christmas Tree cluster totally vanish from sight, leaving only the nebulosity to be seen? I expected the filter to enhance the nebulosity, darken the entire view, but leave some stars visible.
In my 100mm binocular, when I closed one eye and viewed through the filtered side only, the view dramatically darkened, leaving only nebulosity to be seen. All other stars and field stars were completely snuffed out. When viewing M42, the nebulosity was of greater extent, and some hints of texture could be detected while using the filter, but the entire field was utterly-black and devoid of field stars. Even the Trapezium appeared to mostly vanish.
When viewing through both eyes, the brain "averaged" the views and a combined effect produced a mildly-enhanced image. Nebulosity appeared to increase, but only to a marginal extent, not really noticeable unless trying really hard to notice. The view appeared darkened somewhat, but nowhere near as drastically as viewed through filter alone. This actually improved contrast somewhat and contributed to the marginal gain in apparent nebulosity, I suspect - more so than the passband's effect, IMO. I could be wrong and probably am. At any rate, the net gain was hardly worth the expense and trouble of using the filter - again, in my opinion. But, there are some caveats to my experiment :
I simply placed the filter inside the rubber eyecup which I partially rolled back. It fit snugly with no modifications. I may not have had the filter positioned 100% correct - it may have been tilted off-axis, or it might have been improperly distanced between the eye and eyepiece lens. Perhaps the Glatter filters, which has a slimmer profile (presumably they do not have the standard threading ring of 1.25" scope filter, which increases the profile of the filter), and mounts behind the eyecup, function to more positive effect. I would be interested to try them on a pair of 22x85 Ultra/Grizzly to find out. 
In the end I concluded that the idea had some merit, and possibly some usefulness under better conditions than my simple, awkward trials. But several members of this forum warned me not to expect much, if anything, and they turned out to be right. That's happened more than once. 
Eventually I'll learn.....
Clear dark skies...
MikeG
-------------------- Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!
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rushintuit
sage
Reged: 04/01/06
Posts: 264
Loc: Farpoint Observatory
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Howie Glatter imports the filters from the Kasai Trading Co, Ltd. from Tokyo, Japan. The filters are wafer thin.
-------------------- /// Stellarvue SV102ED /// Nikon 12x50 /// Fujinon 16x70 /// SkyTools 2 /// The Desktop Universe All Sky CCD Mosaic In Monochrome Mode ///
Edited by rushintuit (08/31/06 11:57 AM)
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Howie Glatter
Vendor
Reged: 07/04/06
Posts: 87
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Hi Ed,
The binocular nebula filters are a narrow-band type similar to UHC, and are very effective for viewing emission nebulae. They have about 90% transmission in the passband, which is from about 480 to 505nm. They are serialized, and come with transmission printouts for the actual filters you get. The multilayer interference coating is cemented between two pieces of glass and is therefore protected, so the filter can be cleaned without damage, an advantage for over-the-eyelens filters. The glass is mounted in a 30mm diameter metal disc, which I can supply cut smaller if necessary. More usually, I increase the outside diameter of the filter by attaching it to a thin adapter ring that can be sized from 32.5mm to 41.5mm O.D. The size is chosen to be 0.5mm larger than the cavity in the rubber eyecup. The eyecup is rolled down, the filter with adapter ring is placed on the eyelens mount(it doesn't contact the eyelens), and the eycup rolled up. The elasticity of the rubber eyecup retains the filter. To me they seem to give a 4 - 5 times increase in contrast in moderately light-polluted skies. It's amazing when you do an A-B test, installing the filters in only one side and blink-switching to compare the views. The filters cost $140/ pair with one set of adapter rings + $5 priority shipping. Extra adapter ring sets are $10, so one pair of filters can be used with many binoculars.
Clear skies, perfect collimation,
Howie
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12581
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Howie,
Some filters, in order to give proper performance, may need to be used with minimum aperture. For instance, you mention 90% transmission in the passband range of 480 to 505nm. Am I correct to assume that light outside that passband range is blocked? Would that mean that total transmission, as compared to unfiltered, is significantly less than 90%, maybe more on the order of 50%? Any recommnedations for minimum aperture to use these filters?
Also, wouldn't it be correct to assume that users with binoculars already having tight eye relief may need to accept a small loss of field of view. Seems that these filter assemblies, because they mount on top of the eyepieces, at least take up a few mm of the usable eye relief. No different than how Fujinon does it, and they lead to field restriction also. Just something to keep in mind. If you have short eye relief to start, you are going to have really short eye relief with these filters in place. On the other hand, in a very long eye relief binocular like the Fujinon FMT-SX 10x70, Oberwerk Mariner 10x60 or the Nikon SE 12x50, these would actually help take up some of the slack.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
Edited by EdZ (08/31/06 01:39 PM)
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Howie Glatter
Vendor
Reged: 07/04/06
Posts: 87
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"Some filters, in order to give proper performance, may need to be used with minimum aperture. For instance, you mention 90% transmission in the passband range of 480 to 505nm."
I'm not sure I understand. Aperture and passband are not directly connected.
"Am I correct to assume that light outside that passband range is blocked?"
Yes.
"Would that mean that total transmission, as compared to unfiltered, is significantly less than 90%, maybe more on the order of 50%?"
It might be, but if by "total transmission" you mean all the light that was transmitted in the field without the filters, it depends on what other objects (maybe stars) are in the field, and what their spectral characteristics are. Also, the level of sky glow from light pollution would be a factor. If the only thing in the field is an emission nebula, I think you would get quite a bit more than 50% throughput.
"Any recommnedations for minimum aperture to use these filters?"
No. I've had good reports with 35mm binos.
"Also, wouldn't it be correct to assume that users with binoculars already having tight eye relief may need to accept a small loss of field of view."
They take up 1.5mm + the distance between fiter and eyelens, from the eye relief. The clear aperture of the filter is 19mm. It may or may not restrict the field of view, depending on the binocular.
Howie
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12581
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Thanks Howie.
Re: this question Quote:
"Some filters, in order to give proper performance, may need to be used with minimum aperture. For instance, you mention 90% transmission in the passband range of 480 to 505nm."
I'm not sure I understand. Aperture and passband are not directly connected.
I assumed since the filter passband, being narrower than full spectrum, reduces the light transmitted, then it seems that most, if not all, of the light to which we are most sensitive is blocked. Therefore I assume total transmission is greatly reduced. If that's the case, isn't is generally a good idea to use greater aperture to increase light gathering to help compensate for all the light that is blocked? Hence, my question about whether or not you had a recommend minimum aperture.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Ed Kessler
professor emeritus
  
Reged: 05/17/06
Posts: 749
Loc: Millersburg, PA
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Thanks for the response, Howie. You'll probably be hearing from me. I'd like to try a pair of these on my 25 x 100s.
Clear skies, Ed
-------------------- Ed Kessler
sic itur ad astra (Just to look profound!)
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Rick
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/12/05
Posts: 2574
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
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Quote:
Howie Glatter imports the filters from the Kasai Trading Co, Ltd. from Tokyo, Japan. The filters are wafer thin.
Makes sense since they sell his collimators (I have one, good stuff!). These filters are actually pretty good and are made in partnership with some Russian Science Academy according to Kasai's sales blurb. I've been thinking of trying a pair in my Canon's.
clear skies, Rick
-------------------- www.japanastro.com
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
   
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14686
Loc: Hurricane Alley
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I think I have something else on my Xmas list!
Clear dark filtered skies...
MikeG
-------------------- Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!
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refractory
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 02/05/05
Posts: 1016
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OK guys, now comes the ridiculously useless caca post from me- what would happen if one had a motorized rotating gradient filter? That is, think of something like a disk rotating at high speed, whose coatings vary in thickness so that at one side of the disk filtering is at maximum and on the opposite radius minimum (the first color TV systems come to mind with their rotating color filters).
Done right one could even have several different coating gradients one after another (for different filterings).
If rotated very fast would the mind unify the effect- so that you could have your cake and eat it too with regard to seeing the background stars and nebulosities?
In addition, if sized and positioned correctly the system should be able to pass over both eyelenses, and thus alternate there as well.
Does any part of this sound like a reasonable thing to experiment with?
Jess Tauber
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