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ScopeJunky
member
Reged: 02/14/06
Posts: 68
Loc: UK
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Hello to you all on the binocular forum, I'm hoping that I can get some help coming to a purchase decision.
I'm looking to buy some 100mm or maybe 80mm binoculars but after my previous experiences with binocs., thought it better to seek assistance. My only experiences so far are with a pair of Chinese 25x100s owned by a club, which after getting over the initial reaction that viewing with both eyes gives, the realisation that they were actually of very poor optical quality came quite soon after. Last year, based on experiences with the Vixen scopes I've owned I bought a pair of their 20x80 waterproofs which were also not good for all the reasons I've read in a review here. (if it wasn't for the fact they arrived in July '05 I'd have said I'd got that pair the reviewer sent back as my pair also came from OPT)
Sooo, I've looked on the big binocs.com site and a couple of other places and have narrowed it down to -
1. Miyauchi 20x100Bj-iB
2. Oberwerk BT-100 45 deg
3. Oberwerk 45 deg. 20/40x100
4. APM 20/40x100
If I was to go for 80mm then maybe
1. Miyauchi 20x77 BS-77iB
2. Steiner 20x80 Senator
I've read a few reviews, but any comments or recommendations from your experiences would be very much appreciated - could it be for instance that given I don't have a huge budget that what I'm considering is false economy and I'd perhaps be better off with the Nikon or Fujinon 70mm offerings? I'd hope that's not the case as I'd quite set my heart on having the 45deg. type for astronomy, and I have to admit I'm a little bit fussy about optical quality - I don't mind mild false colour, but I hate seeing 'spiky' stars and the vague focus I remember from the chinese 25x100s and the Vixens - rolling the focuser back and forth looking for that best focus that never really happens, and excessive edge-of field distortions.
The Oberwerk BT-100 does look attractive as you get the tripod and mount 'all in', and it takes ordinary 1.25" EPs but if it's just going to repeat my earlier experiences, then I'd give it a miss. Anyway I hope some of you guys (and girls) out there can steer me in the right direction towards some decent binoculars.
Best Wishes
ScopeJunky
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C9.25 XLT
Tak FS-78
Vixen Atlux
Vixen GP
Tak LE 5mm
Tak LE 7.5mm
Tak LE 12.5mm
15mm Pan
24mm Pan
10mm Pentax XW
30mm Vixen LV
10mm Celestron Plossl IR
AP 2x Convertible Barlow
EOS 30D
70-200mm F4L
17-40m F4L
Sigma 24-70 F2.8 EX DG Macro
Edited by ScopeJunky (09/18/06 07:18 PM)
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Les
professor emeritus
Reged: 04/22/06
Posts: 666
Loc: Maryland
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Hi ScopeJunky,
I can't comment on the BT100/45 but I do have the Oberwerks tripod (that my BT80/45 sits on) and I would say it is worth every penny of the $100 that they charge for it... and not a penny more. It does have the virtue of being extremely light for it size but this is accomplished with not very robust hardware and the wood is not a hardwood like the premium tripods.
I also own the Nikon 18x70s, and if you are overly concerned about spiking and flaring on bright objects, I don't think these are for you. My sense is you would be very happy with the Fujis if you could tolerate the neck cramping of viewing without 45 degree eyepieces. Also try them out to make sure they have sufficient eyerelief for you. I chose the Nikons over the Fujis not because of better optical quality but because the longer relief and wider AFOV results in a more pleasing observing experience for me. My BT80/45 being of lower optical quality than the Nikons, is actually more comfortable and fun to use.
Confused yet?
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Les
Canon 10x42L IS
Oberwerks BT80/45, Helix Hercules mount on Oberwerks Standard Tripod
Swift 8x44ED Ultralite
Questar 50th Anniversary Model, 501 head on Manfrotto 475 tripod
Stellarvue SV90T 90mm Fluorite refractor Bogen 3236/Televue Tele-Pod Head
Questar 7 Astro
Vixen GP-DX on Baader Surveyor Tripod
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edwincjones
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 4423
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I have the miyauchi 20x100 florite model, and it is a great binocular. It is no longer available, at least new, and is replaced by the 26x100 model. If I were buying now, I would consider the Saturn 100mm binocular with longer focal length, less color, higher magification options.
If I were to spend less money, then the BT100 45 degree
If I were willing to spend more, then the Kowa Highlander
edj
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n w arkansas
Binocular, Solar, General Amateur Astronomy
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ScopeJunky
member
Reged: 02/14/06
Posts: 68
Loc: UK
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Hi and thanks for your advice so far - at the moment I'm thinking it will probably be the smaller Miyauchis as there is such as jump in price between these and the 100mm class - a bit like there is between 4" and 5" apo refractors hmmm, need to think about this a bit longer, please keep the comments coming
SJ
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C9.25 XLT
Tak FS-78
Vixen Atlux
Vixen GP
Tak LE 5mm
Tak LE 7.5mm
Tak LE 12.5mm
15mm Pan
24mm Pan
10mm Pentax XW
30mm Vixen LV
10mm Celestron Plossl IR
AP 2x Convertible Barlow
EOS 30D
70-200mm F4L
17-40m F4L
Sigma 24-70 F2.8 EX DG Macro
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CESDewar
GorillAstronomer
Reged: 01/16/05
Posts: 1811
Loc: Morganton, GA, USA
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Quote:
Hello to you all on the binocular forum, I'm hoping that I can get some help coming to a purchase decision.
I'm looking to buy some 100mm or maybe 80mm binoculars.......have narrowed it down to -
1. Miyauchi 20x100Bj-iB
2. Oberwerk BT-100 45 deg
3. Oberwerk 45 deg. 20/40x100
4. APM 20/40x100
Well, I think most people would react that there's a fairly wide range here of binoculars and, in particular, prices. And so you'll probably get a pretty wide variation in suggestions as well!
Personally, I have the Miyauchi Saturn III's, but these are pretty expensive (some $500 more than the Miyauchi pair above) and the higher power only works well for me because I have a good pair of 18x50 canons for wider field observing. If this is your only binocular, a top end of 20x/25x would be more appropriate.
The 100mm binos would be the better choice unless size/weight is a major consideration. The extra reach is very noticeable and greatly increases the palette of deep sky objects that you can observe.
In your list, I would personally choose the BT-100/45's. They're pretty heavy, so you need a solid mount, but the optical quality is very high, and the use of interchangeable EP's is a definite benefit. 45° viewing is a HUGE plus unless you have a good P-Mount as observing much above 70° gets to be a pain in the neck (literally!). But the weight is high (around 50lbs binos+Tripod) while some of the others would come in closer to half that, so if weight is a big issue for you, take that into consideration.
I also have a pair of much less expensive 25x100 Oberwerk IF's and I have to say the quality of those is really remarkably good considering the under $400 price (in fact it was these binoculars that really got me hooked on Binocular-Observing and ultimately led me to get the Saturn III's).
I don't think you will go "wrong" with any of the choices you present here - and ultimately the final decision will most likely depend more on issues such as weight, need for interchangeable EP's, etc. than any clear winner in all categories.
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edwincjones
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 4423
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I would be cautious about the Miyauchi 20x77s-I have heard mixed reports but have never used one.
edj
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n w arkansas
Binocular, Solar, General Amateur Astronomy
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AJTony
sage
Reged: 04/17/04
Posts: 379
Loc: Hamilton Square, NJ
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Straight through big binos lead me to great frustration. Unless you are a contortionist, or adopt some type of counterbalanced apparatus and lie on your back, a great deal of sky is out of reach.
So my bottom line opinion is that if you want to invest in big binos, especially 100mm, go with a 45 degree model.
AJ
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Oberwerk BT100-45 Binos
Apogee 25 X 100 Binos
Canon 15 X 50 IS Binos
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Joad
Wordsmith
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 11919
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[snip]"In your list, I would personally choose the BT-100/45's. They're pretty heavy, so you need a solid mount, but the optical quality is very high, and the use of interchangeable EP's is a definite benefit. 45° viewing is a HUGE plus unless you have a good P-Mount as observing much above 70° gets to be a pain in the neck (literally!). But the weight is high (around 50lbs binos+Tripod) while some of the others would come in closer to half that, so if weight is a big issue for you, take that into consideration."[snip]
CESDewar
This pretty much says it all, so I thought I'd repeat it via quotation. The 45° BT100mm has received unanimous endorsement here on CN. Its only drawback is weight (and it is tricky to mount on a fully extended tripod in the dark!). But it is a good glass, offering quite a range of magnifications. Currently I am enjoying the Oberwerk-provided 25X eyepieces, but I like knowing that I can take the magnification up or down at my will. The views are very pleasing to me. I will deliberately use subjective terms because I can only see through my own eyes, but I like the contrast and find star images to be sharp. Jupiter at 25X is nothing to write home about, but the Small Sagittarius Star Cloud is! I've been picking up the Veil, the North America Nebula, and the Pelican with ease under dark skies, and of course all the goodies in Sagittarius. This is a marvelous Milky Way cruising instrument. I compared it to a Vixen 45° 80mm binoscope the other night (a nice instrument too), and the Oberwerk held up well in comparison. I'm sure the 80mm Kowa, the 100mm Saturn, and the 150mm Fujinon are even better, but for under two grand, the 45° BT100 is a good bet.
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ScopeJunky
member
Reged: 02/14/06
Posts: 68
Loc: UK
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Well thanks for all the comments - I definitely hear what you're saying about going for the angled binoculars!
I too have heard mention of patchy QC on the smaller Miyauchis but if I get them from Big Binoculars.com and ask for them to be thoroughly checked over prior to despatch, I thought I'd be on fairly safe ground - people on this Forum seem to rate this supplier quite highly, and they do mention a 'no qiubble' replacement policy on their site - must say that the price on the 25x100IF is makes them tempting but I remeber when I tried the clubs' 25x100 straight through and my neck aching for days afterwards.
The Miyauchi Saturn II look interesting too, but 77mm is already a compromise, I hadn't really wanted to go smaller than 80mm.
Thanks very much for 3everyone's help here, I'm not 100% decided yet but'll post a report when I've done some observing with whatever I end up buying
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C9.25 XLT
Tak FS-78
Vixen Atlux
Vixen GP
Tak LE 5mm
Tak LE 7.5mm
Tak LE 12.5mm
15mm Pan
24mm Pan
10mm Pentax XW
30mm Vixen LV
10mm Celestron Plossl IR
AP 2x Convertible Barlow
EOS 30D
70-200mm F4L
17-40m F4L
Sigma 24-70 F2.8 EX DG Macro
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grbrown
professor emeritus
Reged: 07/09/05
Posts: 643
Loc: Ampthill, UK, 52:02N 0:30W
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Quote:
"In your list, I would personally choose the BT-100/45's. They're pretty heavy, so you need a solid mount, but the optical quality is very high, and the use of interchangeable EP's is a definite benefit. 45° viewing is a HUGE plus unless you have a good P-Mount as observing much above 70° gets to be a pain in the neck (literally!). But the weight is high (around 50lbs binos+Tripod) while some of the others would come in closer to half that, so if weight is a big issue for you, take that into consideration."
My wife and I take our BTs bird watching! Heavy yes, but not impossible to carry. What we found makes life difficult is the enormous carrying case they come in - which weighs 50 pounds loaded, then there's the tripod. See our Review:
BT100 Binoculars for Birding
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Graham
"one eye good, two eyes better...the more I look, the more I see"
BT100-45 degrees, plus 35,24,17,13,9mm Sieberts
15x80, 7x50 Steiners
12x50, 10x42, 8x20 Leica Trinovids
7x35 Minolta
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grbrown
professor emeritus
Reged: 07/09/05
Posts: 643
Loc: Ampthill, UK, 52:02N 0:30W
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Great - that's the first time I have managed to make a URL work! 
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Graham
"one eye good, two eyes better...the more I look, the more I see"
BT100-45 degrees, plus 35,24,17,13,9mm Sieberts
15x80, 7x50 Steiners
12x50, 10x42, 8x20 Leica Trinovids
7x35 Minolta
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Mark9473
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 2699
Loc: 51°N 4°E
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could you tell me how you did it?
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Mark
Leica 8x20; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63
WO Megrez II 80 FD + Baader 90° T2 Amici
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15x60
member
Reged: 09/19/06
Posts: 74
Loc: Milan, Italy
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Hi ScopeJunky,
I've got the 20/30x77 Miyauchi and the 20/26/37x100 Miyauchi BJ-100 iC (ED model): I'm very satisfied with the 77, but not so much with the 100.
The 77 is well corrected because cromatic abberration is well controlled and stars are nice pinpoints (anyway, a real ED refractor shows better images, no doubts about this), but the images showed by the Miyauchi 100 (non-apo model) are worse than the images showed by the 77.
In my Miyauchi 100 the left optic shows a bit of coma and the right optic a bit of astigmatism: you don't realize these aberrations at 20x, but you note something wrong at 26x and you recognize them at 37x.........  . The white stars are better corrected than the orange ones, and, obviously, the brighter stars are worse corrected than the fainter ones.
But the Miyauchi 100 are designed for DSO and in this field they perform well (but the stars of the brightest open/globular clusters are not nice pinpoints due to the described aberrations ).
Bye,
Fabio
Milan, Italy
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Zeiss 15x60 B/GA T*
Carl Zeiss 7x50W Jenoptem
Zeiss Victory 10x56 FL
Miyauchi BJ-100 iC
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Steve_M_M
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/09/04
Posts: 644
Loc: Moorpark, CA
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Hey ScopeJunky,
I bought a pair of the oberwerk 45 degree BT100's about 1 month ago. There was another cloudynighter who was seriously considering them too. So, on night 1, I sent this email to him...
My BT-100's arrived today. First light and first views can only be described as WOW. I have not had a chance to give them a total analysis, but
1) Packing was great
2) Quality of the bincular and fork components is top notch. Very nicely machined. Definitely living room furniture. No plastic parts.(Spreader and lock knobs on tripod are plastic) And, the tripod is definitely the weak link.
3) Not heard great things about the EP's, so I used exclusively Pentax 14mm XL's for first views.
4) First light was exciting as both images merged PERFECTLY. No double image whatsoever. I was fully expecting to have some adjustments.
4) First object-Moon of course. Gorgeous views at 43x Definitely some purple CA. Both lenses sharp, contrast good. Watched several stars get occulted by the moon.
5) Jupiter-Pinpoint moons, but CA made the view tough on the planet itself. Easily saw cloud bands
6) Vega-I dropped in a Klee 2.8 barlow and a 14mm Pentax into one side, 14mm Pentax as a finder in the other. CA as on jupiter. But, the real test here was collimation. Very nice! Checked both sides at this ridiculous 120x. Premilinary results are very good. Collimation was excellent with no flaring/astigmatism. I was impressed and not expecting much here.
7) Same test as above at the edge. Definitely some light loss at the outer 5-10%-SO What. But, a miracle occured. No flaring of stars at the edge. The optics really performed well on initial test.
8) M13, M5, M8-all pinpoint stars, contrast good (all my other scopes are Takahashi, so my comparisons may not be fair here)
Likes
-Merged images
-Collimation
-Quality Build
-Smooth Fork Mount
-Awesome look
-Spectacular Value
-Helical Focusers
-Optical Quality
-Sweeping views(you do not need a finder)
Marginal
-Contrast (I already put them away, but I should have check baffle type, etc). Good VR filters may help quite a lot here.
-CA-at this point, these are no good for jupiter, venus, and most likely mars.
-Friction fit ep holders-(I may learn to like these, they do seem to hold the EP's well)
Jury still out
-Tripod....lots of weight, we shall see....
Fun things to still try
-Much more testing somewhere besides my front door
-Solar filters for each front lense
-Violet Reduction filters threaded into each eyepiece. Same for O-III filters
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Steve_M_M
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/09/04
Posts: 644
Loc: Moorpark, CA
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So, based on this and other reviews, the guy bought a pair. He loves them too. He wrote yesterday saying he took them to a star party last weekend and they were the hit of the party.
Unfortunately, wild fires and clouds have prevented any further testing. I expect to take them up to Mt Pinos as soon as the skies clear. So, my day 1 views are just that, day one views.
I did get an email back from Kevin at Oberwerk reminding me that the IPD must be perfectly aligned so that the exit pupil is lined up with your eye. I did notice afterwards that I could "shift" the CA from purple to yellow by changing the IPD and that there was a sweet spot in between. As for the friction fit EP holders, Kevin suggested "clockwise" twisting only.
I just ordered 1.25" OIII filters which should really be fun on these puppies. I do not think these are too great for planetary views beyond the moon. I may try some VR filters when the big guys (planets that is) show up in the night sky again.
I really do like these for their intended purpose. And the value....WOW.
Here is part of the email I got from another owner....
"They were the hit of the party..... guys with 12" Dobs abandoned
their cheap dobs in lieu of the BT's.... WOW, they were good, and
never
a reason to go higher than 25x magnification... awesome, it was windy,
and I had the only view not effected by the wind.... although that
tripod does not seem as substantial as the fork, it performed flawless
in the wind... granted at 80x maybe different, but, for its intended
purpose, this thing is a steal! LOVE IT!"
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Joad
Wordsmith
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 11919
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If you look at my avatar, Steve, that is me with my BT100 on the top of Mt. Pinos last Saturday. Viewing was good.
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Steve_M_M
professor emeritus
Reged: 06/09/04
Posts: 644
Loc: Moorpark, CA
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well, that would have been interesting to compare both BT 100's. I suspect we would see very minor difference in optical quality.
I wish I had gone, my friend up near there assured me the wind was blowing the smoke towards Mt. Pinos. Obviously not 
I am new to the area (midwest guy), so hopefully we can connect up there some time soon.
Steve
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Les
professor emeritus
Reged: 04/22/06
Posts: 666
Loc: Maryland
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Quote:
2) Quality of the bincular and fork components is top notch. Very nicely machined. Definitely living room furniture. No plastic parts.(Spreader and lock knobs on tripod are plastic) And, the tripod is definitely the weak link.
Aren't all fixtures below the top ring of the tripod plastic? Including the dowel hinges and feet? I haven't cut into mine, but they sure look/feel like plastic. I agree the tripod is the weakest link. I feel that it is barely adequate for my BT80/45.
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Les
Canon 10x42L IS
Oberwerks BT80/45, Helix Hercules mount on Oberwerks Standard Tripod
Swift 8x44ED Ultralite
Questar 50th Anniversary Model, 501 head on Manfrotto 475 tripod
Stellarvue SV90T 90mm Fluorite refractor Bogen 3236/Televue Tele-Pod Head
Questar 7 Astro
Vixen GP-DX on Baader Surveyor Tripod
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Joad
Wordsmith
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 11919
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There is plastic in the dowel hinges and I've had the legs pop out of the top of the tripod (not with the binoculars mounted, of course!). Edit and correction: as instructed by Edz and Oberwerk, I find that the tripod is fine: just needed an adjustment and tightening. And it is nicer looking than its predecessor. The fork mount on the new BT100 is a vast improvement over the original BT100 mount too.
And Steve, we ought to run into each other eventually. I tend to view from my place on the north side of the mountain, but if I'm up on top while you are there sometime, I, um, will be hard to miss. 
For the time being there is going to be a lot of smoke, though, until they get that danged fire out.
Edited by Joad (09/21/06 09:53 PM)
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OBERWERK
Vendor
Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 84
Loc: OH
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Quote:
Aren't all fixtures below the top ring of the tripod plastic? Including the dowel hinges and feet? I haven't cut into mine, but they sure look/feel like plastic.
Almost all parts below the locking ring are aluminum, except for the spreader arms. The hinge pins are part of the same casting that forms the leg top. Nylon bearing inserts line the clamps that hold the hinge pins, but the actual leg clamp components are aluminum. The wedges inside the casting that clamp the wood legs are solid plastic (very strong, not a weak point). The feet are also aluminum (look at the bottom of the feet after you've used it a while). The weakest link used to be where the spreader attaches to each leg. On the older tripods (more than 2 yrs. old), those parts were plastic, and sometimes snapped off. Those parts are now aluminum (in fact we send free replacement parts to owners of the older tripods upon request). The newer tripods also have a nicer finish than the older models, and the lower leg tops are now neatly capped with a rubber bumper. So I really feel the newest tripods are better than ever.
REgards,
Kevin Busarow
Oberwerk Corp.
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12581
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
I've had the legs pop out of the top of the tripod
Joad,
the leg dowels are held into the top plate with a compression spreader. Loosen it up a bit (the bolt is underneath), jamb the dowels in as tight as they will go, and retighten the compression bolt.
edz
--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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OBERWERK
Vendor
Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 84
Loc: OH
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Quote:
Quote:
I've had the legs pop out of the top of the tripod
Joad,
the leg dowels are held into the top plate with a compression spreader. Loosen it up a bit (the bolt is underneath), jamb the dowels in as tight as they will go, and retighten the compression bolt.
edz
Correct. With some tripod legs, the center wedge can bottom out before the leg is tightly clamped. We then have to grind down the narrow end of the center wedge about 1/8". This allows the center wedge to go in deeper and apply more pressure to the side wedges.
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Les
professor emeritus
Reged: 04/22/06
Posts: 666
Loc: Maryland
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Thanks Kevin for sorting this out for us. These fixtures do feel like what passes for aluminum on many current cameras today but is actually a metal matrix plastic. Do you have any idea as to what kind of wood is used? It is extremely light.
--------------------
Les
Canon 10x42L IS
Oberwerks BT80/45, Helix Hercules mount on Oberwerks Standard Tripod
Swift 8x44ED Ultralite
Questar 50th Anniversary Model, 501 head on Manfrotto 475 tripod
Stellarvue SV90T 90mm Fluorite refractor Bogen 3236/Televue Tele-Pod Head
Questar 7 Astro
Vixen GP-DX on Baader Surveyor Tripod
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OBERWERK
Vendor
Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 84
Loc: OH
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Quote:
Thanks Kevin for sorting this out for us. These fixtures do feel like what passes for aluminum on many current cameras today but is actually a metal matrix plastic. Do you have any idea as to what kind of wood is used? It is extremely light.
Metal matrix plastic? That sounds pretty exotic (expensive). The tripods parts are simple metal castings (use a sharp object to scratch the bottom of the top plate and you'll see the shiny bare metal). They are primed and then a rather thick coat of black paint is baked on, which makes them look kind of like plastic. We use a 60-watt laser to engrave the product description and contact info through the paint to the metal. When you look at that text, you can see how thick the paint is.
As for the wood, I'm not sure. It is lighter than the older tripods, but the grain and finish is more consistant than it used to be.
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Joad
Wordsmith
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 11919
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Quote:
Quote:
I've had the legs pop out of the top of the tripod
Joad,
the leg dowels are held into the top plate with a compression spreader. Loosen it up a bit (the bolt is underneath), jamb the dowels in as tight as they will go, and retighten the compression bolt.
edz
I'm very glad I happened to bring this up because this information is just what I needed to know. I've just driven up to my Mt. Pinos area place where I keep the BT100 and followed Edz's instructions, and, yep, the tripod legs are now firmly in place. So correction: the new tripod on the fork mounted BT100 is just fine. Mine just needed an easy adjustment. And as Kevin says, the new tripod does have a better finish to it than the old one.
Thanks Edz and Kevin for your help!
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