Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums
Privacy Policy |
Please read our Terms
of Service | Signup and
Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu.... uh, User
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Hello, I am from the other side of the Big Pond, and have made a telescope or two so I know were Iam talking about..
I did not hear from 'Oberwerk' before untill reading on this forum.
Roughly said Leica, Nikon and Zeiss are 'the' brands overhere and I was wondering if 'Oberwerk' Binoculars are comparrable to these brands, or are the just good for there price/quality.
What is your opinion and your favorite Oberwerk Binocular ( Day-or Nighttime).
|
Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2554
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
|
|
Kees,
Welcome to CN!
Oberwerk is an Importer/Distributor of mostly 56mm and bigger binocular binoculars made in China. Unlike Leica, Swarovski or Zeiss, Oberwerk does not manufacture any binoculars. They source binoculars from China and have the Oberwerk name applied. There are at least a dozen other companies in the US importing from China. Oberwerk is one of the most established and have more consisten quality control. You can think of Oberwerk as the Bushnell of the 21st Century. Oberwerk binos are an excellent value. IMO some of the better models offer 90-95% performance of the premium brands at a fraction of the cost. I'd guess the Oberwerk 10X50 Waterproof bino is every bit as good as a Nikon Action Extreme. Both are made in China.
My favorite Oberwerk:
http://bigbinoculars.com/100bt45.htm
I like everythiing about this model but the WEIGHT.....
Erik D
|
KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10146
Loc: Lancashire UK
|
|
Kees ,
A warm welcome from me too !
In addition to what Erik has said , judging SOLELY on a few weeks' posession of just ONE Oberwerk binocular , which happened to be a 12 x 60 , and on being a VERY satisfied owner of a Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT and Nikon 10 x 42 SE , I would say that the 12 x 60 Oberwerk binocular which I tried and tested represented EXCEEDINGLY GOOD value FOR THE MONEY .
I would be lying if I said I thought it was in the same class , optically or mechanically as either the Zeiss or Nikon I own , or in the same league as any of the MANY other binoculars I've spent time with , which come with a very high price tag and the names Leica , Nikon , Swarovksi or Zeiss on the data plate !
In my estimation , based , I stress on only ONE Oberwerk but probably close to TWENTY ONE of the BIG FOUR binoculars , I think a " performance estimation " of 90% to 95% is too HIGH in favour of the Chinese instrument .
These things are BOUND to be subjective by nature and little more than rough estimates , but I would put such a hypothetical figure closer to 80% to 85 % in terms of OPTICS and probably 70% to 75% in terms of BUILD QUALITY .
But DO remember , those Oberwerk 12 x 60s retail for around $100 US !
The Leicas , Nikons , Swarovski and Zeiss I am comparing them to cost at least TEN TIMES that amount !
I get the impression that although at times it seems almost every CN member and their dog own an Oberwerk binocular of some sort , VERY FEW of them seem to spend a LOT of time with them for daytime terrestrial viewing .
If they DO , it is seldom mentioned in the CN binoculars mini - reviews posted here ! :-)
Regards from England , UK ,
Kenny
--------------------
If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
|
grbrown
professor emeritus
Reged: 07/09/05
Posts: 643
Loc: Ampthill, UK, 52:02N 0:30W
|
|
Kees,
The larger Oberwerk binoculars are made in China by the Kunming Optical Instruments Company:
http://www.binocularschina.com/
It is quite likely there is an importer nearer to you (Holland, Belgium?) as there are three importers in the UK. The challenge is identifying such a company! If they sell the BT100 models it is easy, as they are a unique design. Try a search on your local Google!
Oberwerk's other models are probably also imported from other manufacturers. Unfortunately these makers do not use their own names, so it is difficult to identify them, but there is at least one other Chinese optics maker that advertises on the internet, also in English, for trading partners.
Welcome to Cloudy Nights, from across the North Sea!
--------------------
Graham
"one eye good, two eyes better...the more I look, the more I see"
BT100-45 degrees, plus 35,24,17,13,9mm Sieberts
15x80, 7x50 Steiners
12x50, 10x42, 8x20 Leica Trinovids
7x35 Minolta
|
KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10146
Loc: Lancashire UK
|
|
I thought it worth mentioning here that in spite of these percentage estimates being banded about , it sometimes only takes just ONE " less than perfect " feature of any specimen of any binocular , such as a sloppy focus mechanism or slight collimation problem to result in the instrument becoming positively FRUSTRATING to use .
The price one sometimes needs to pay for the total absence of such irritants can be VERY high , but also quite easily forgotten once the sheer satisfaction of using a totally trouble - free , pleasure - giving instrument takes over .
SOME " top end " binoculars ARE , in my honest opinion , OVERPRICED , but if that is the price one HAS to pay for such luxury , so be it !
There IS something VERY ADDICTIVE about REALLY nice binoculars ! :-)
Clear skies , Kenny
--------------------
If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
|
pcad
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/17/05
Posts: 1501
Loc: Connecticut
|
|
Kees,
I wish I had a 15x70 Leica to compare anything to, or a Zeiss, Nikon or Fujinon for that matter.
I bought the equivalent to the Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 and would say that this is their best standard design binocular. Much better than the series of oberwerk binoculars that the 12x60 belongs to that Kenny mentions above.
Currently EdZ has been critically evaluating these binos as we speak. The most common comparison for these binos is the 16x70 Fujinon. Very similar quality and performance for half the price. Stay tuned.
I agree with kenny that the 12x60 is a good binocular in it's own right and is certainly a great value at less than a third the cost of the Ultra series. The 12x60 is not the only good model in this series. Units from 56mm to 100mm have been well received by many in this forum.
Oberwerk also markets a series of binocular telescopes which are based on what's called the "Chinese Border Guard" design. Many here can attest to the quality and value of these models. Unfortunately I can't.
On top of all this, Oberwerk has had a stellar record in the quality control and customer service end of the business. To be fair, most of the above can also be said of Garret Optical which competes head-to-head with Oberwerk.
Peter
--------------------
Peter
Telescopes 25 - 318 mm
Binoculars 15 - 88 mm
Microscope 50x - 1000x
|
Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14686
Loc: Hurricane Alley
|
|
Leica what? Leica Rolling Stone?
Clear dark skies...
MikeG
--------------------
Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!
|
KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10146
Loc: Lancashire UK
|
|
< Leica what? Leica Rolling Stone? >
Mike , Come on ! don't start me up !
I can't get no satisfaction from comments like that , so was about to say get off my cloud , but then I remembered you can't always get what you want , and I would miss you anyway . :-)
Kenny
--------------------
If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Thanks guys, I see that the 15x70 and 100BT are most favorite Oberman's on this forum
Looking at the 15x70 and 25x100IF Oberwerk, can you tell something about tunnel view and kidney bean effects.
|
DJB
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/23/05
Posts: 1267
|
|
FYI, re: Kenny's response.
Actually I enjoy using the OB 11x56 for daytime use, and, ocassionally, their 8x40.
Ironically, the 8x56 and the 11x56 OBs have the same FOV, using identical oculars I presume. However, the 11x56 is more of a pleasure to use, by a long shot.
I will agree with Kenny's assessment concerning the percentage of comparison quality on all accounts. I mean, if it were actually 95%, we truly would have a deal breaker.
Best regards,
Dave.
|
edwincjones
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 4423
|
|
I hope the Rolling Stones sue Kenny for his abuse of their lyrics.
edj
--------------------
n w arkansas
Binocular, Solar, General Amateur Astronomy
|
Les
professor emeritus
Reged: 04/22/06
Posts: 666
Loc: Maryland
|
|
I also think Kenny has the percentages about right. Like Russian products, the Chinese optics offer good value compared to premium glasses but are nowhere as slick mechanically as good Japanese or German glasses.
--------------------
Les
Canon 10x42L IS
Oberwerks BT80/45, Helix Hercules mount on Oberwerks Standard Tripod
Swift 8x44ED Ultralite
Questar 50th Anniversary Model, 501 head on Manfrotto 475 tripod
Stellarvue SV90T 90mm Fluorite refractor Bogen 3236/Televue Tele-Pod Head
Questar 7 Astro
Vixen GP-DX on Baader Surveyor Tripod
|
johnno
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 807
|
|
Hi Kenny,
You have a wicked sense of humour Mate,
Me too.
Best regards.
John
|
grbrown
professor emeritus
Reged: 07/09/05
Posts: 643
Loc: Ampthill, UK, 52:02N 0:30W
|
|
Quote:
On top of all this, Oberwerk has had a stellar record in the quality control and customer service end of the business.
As Oberwerk doesn't manufacture their products it is difficult to see how they can score on quality control. That is down to Kunming in China. However it seems from CN Forum discussions that they certainly excel in customer service and that is a quality to be cherished and rewarded!
--------------------
Graham
"one eye good, two eyes better...the more I look, the more I see"
BT100-45 degrees, plus 35,24,17,13,9mm Sieberts
15x80, 7x50 Steiners
12x50, 10x42, 8x20 Leica Trinovids
7x35 Minolta
|
Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14686
Loc: Hurricane Alley
|
|
Quote:
As Oberwerk doesn't manufacture their products it is difficult to see how they can score on quality control. That is down to Kunming in China.
Rather than "quality control", I would call it "quality assurance". It may seem like semantics, but there is a difference, as you allude to.
Quality control takes place during/after manufacturing process before the product is distributed to vendors, in this case, Oberwerk.
Oberwerk (or other vendors) order a quantity of binoculars from the manufacturer. When these binoculars arrive they are inspected and/or tested according to that particular vendor's tastes. Some vendors are obviously more selective than others. Binoculars which fail mechanical and/or optical inspection are rejected and either sent back for credit or destroyed/liquidated for credit, as per the laws of retail. This process is the same, whether it is Oberwerk selling imported binoculars, or Home Depot selling imported lawn mowers. The key, for the consumer, is to choose a vendor with scrupulous quality assurance checks and a good record of follow-up customer service. Oberwerk and Garrett Optical have both.
Clear dark skies...
MikeG
--------------------
Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!
|
grbrown
professor emeritus
Reged: 07/09/05
Posts: 643
Loc: Ampthill, UK, 52:02N 0:30W
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
As Oberwerk doesn't manufacture their products it is difficult to see how they can score on quality control. That is down to Kunming in China.
Rather than "quality control", I would call it "quality assurance". It may seem like semantics, but there is a difference, as you allude to.
Quality control takes place during/after manufacturing process before the product is distributed to vendors, in this case, Oberwerk.
Oberwerk (or other vendors) order a quantity of binoculars from the manufacturer. When these binoculars arrive they are inspected and/or tested according to that particular vendor's tastes. Some vendors are obviously more selective than others. Binoculars which fail mechanical and/or optical inspection are rejected and either sent back for credit or destroyed/liquidated for credit, as per the laws of retail. This process is the same, whether it is Oberwerk selling imported binoculars, or Home Depot selling imported lawn mowers. The key, for the consumer, is to choose a vendor with scrupulous quality assurance checks and a good record of follow-up customer service. Oberwerk and Garrett Optical have both.
Clear dark skies...
MikeG
Mike,
Well put. I was uneasy with QC, but am very happy with QA!
--------------------
Graham
"one eye good, two eyes better...the more I look, the more I see"
BT100-45 degrees, plus 35,24,17,13,9mm Sieberts
15x80, 7x50 Steiners
12x50, 10x42, 8x20 Leica Trinovids
7x35 Minolta
|
pcad
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/17/05
Posts: 1501
Loc: Connecticut
|
|
Mike and Graham,
Quality Assurance is exactly what I meant. Sorry about confusing QA with QC.
Peter
--------------------
Peter
Telescopes 25 - 318 mm
Binoculars 15 - 88 mm
Microscope 50x - 1000x
|
Mark9473
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 2699
Loc: 51°N 4°E
|
|
Kees, Telescope Service in Germany are selling several binoculars that are sourced at the same manufacturer as Oberwerk. I would assume they are close to being identical.
--------------------
Mark
Leica 8x20; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63
WO Megrez II 80 FD + Baader 90° T2 Amici
|
johnno
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 807
|
|
Hi Mark,
There are,A Few Dealers,Here in Australia,I Believe,also source Their products from Kunming,in China.
However,NOT, all of them,specify,the same CRITERIA,as Oberwerk,except,Maybe,A.O.E.(Australia)
Quality,And,Selling Price,I BELIEVE,is down to What the Retailer,is Prepared to pay,from the supplier.
Its the Same old Bottom Line.
You Get What You Pay For,HOPEFULLY.
Regards.
John
Edited by johnno (09/29/06 02:05 PM)
|
Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14686
Loc: Hurricane Alley
|
|
John raises a good point.
Many vendors in the US, Europe and elsewhere source their products from the same manufacturer. However, this manufacturer is capable of delivering a product that is custom tailored to the that particular vendor's requirements. Not unlike ordering a new car from the dealership. One can purchase the stock model that is sitting on the lot or one can special order the racing model with high performance upgrades. Both are built on the same chassis. These imported binoculars are the same way.
Coatings, eyepieces, focusers, and elements of the build can all be specificed by the vendor. Same goes for the accessories that come with the binocular - carrying case (soft versus hard), lens caps, etc.
And then after all of that, we have the quality-assurance checks that are individual to each vendor. Combine these two factors together and one can see two identical-looking binoculars that perform very differently.
Clear dark skies...
MikeG
--------------------
Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!
|
BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2109
Loc: Washington, USA
|
|
Boy, there must be a China out there that I don't know about. 'Cause to get a major modification out of the
manufacturers I know, you have to buy huge quantities AND purchase the tooling.
I will be placing my first Kunming order on Monday, and, while very kind, they are not overly flexible. The fact is, they cannot get caught up in all the special this and thats and still be streamlined enough to offer the prices they do.
Heck, Captain's is 109 years old, and they are requiring that we pay the invoice before they start production.
Just a thought,
Bill
--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .
|
Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14686
Loc: Hurricane Alley
|
|
Bill,
Thanks for the needed dose of reality.
I had in my mind a picture of a menu from a Chinese restaurant (ironically enough) and the vendor ordering thusly :
"I'll take #1 coatings, #2 focuser, #1 prisms, #1 chassis covering, #1 lens polishing, and #2 accessory package."
And then the manufacturer delivers the order to the "kitchen" where the magic takes place.
Sprinkle a few oompa-loompas around and some Keebler Elves as shift supervisors, and we have the typical 21st century optics operation.... 
Quote:
Heck, Captain's is 109 years old, and they are requiring that we pay the invoice before they start production.
And the fact that Captain's is ordering these binoculars, and the ones you have seen meet your approval, says much for these new Kunming binos.
Clear dark skies...
MikeG
--------------------
Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!
|
BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2109
Loc: Washington, USA
|
|
As always, you are too kind. Yes, based on the one unit I have seen so far, I am very impressed. I have heard that the QA on collimation is not always uniform. However, just as with my telescopes, guns, guitars, and everything else, I would rather have a robust instrument needing to be tweaked than 3 heavily hyped units that are pretty but which are not worth tweaking.
I will personally check each one I sell. Thus, I will not be after the "give-it-to-me-for-less-than-it-cost-you” amateur astronomy market, but rather the ocean-going community. I think it will be good all the way around. The real Fujinon people will not give the new “First Mate” (That’s what I will call it) the time of day. Thus, it will not hurt Fujinon sales—at least MT and FMT sales—and the guys who would kill for an FMT, but don’t have the money, will be ecstatic. Also, while I don’t know what we will be selling it for, it will undoubtedly not be competing with those of my optics brethren who had the product before me.
>>>I had in my mind a picture of a menu from a Chinese restaurant (ironically enough) and the vendor ordering thusly :
"I'll take #1 coatings, #2 focuser, #1 prisms, #1 chassis covering, #1 lens polishing, and #2 accessory package."
And then the manufacturer delivers the order to the "kitchen" where the magic takes place.<<<
I know; I have heard that quite a bit. And, if you have BIG bucks, it can work that way. But then, remember, there are folks who believe that some binoculars are made in the United States, that mere mortals can see the difference between multi-coatings, that “BaK4” is a magic incantation, that the size of the objective lens determines the field of view, that the word “aspheric,” in and of itself, will make a binocular provide better images, that Leupold is pronounced “LEE-ah-pold,” that ZOOM binoculars are an upgrade, that binoculars can be collimated without a collimator, or having a clue what the axle’s role is in the matter, and that the European manufacturers are too stupid to realize that they, too, can make a buck off Asian optics production.
But then, whaddoIknow?
Have a great weekend.
Bill
--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .
|
Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14686
Loc: Hurricane Alley
|
|
--------------------
Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!
|
Rick
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/12/05
Posts: 2574
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
|
|
Quote:
Boy, there must be a China out there that I don't know about. 'Cause to get a major modification out of the
manufacturers I know, you have to buy huge quantities AND purchase the tooling.
It never ceases to amaze me how easily folks will let themselves be convinced. I have spent more than half of my life living and doing business in Asia. All as I can say, is the old Reagan advice of "trust, but verify" should be on page one of everyone's Asian business playbook. I'll illustrate what I mean with a little fairytale.
Man walks into Far East Asian antique shop and admires Buddha figurine made from what looks like jade. Man, not having expensive lab equipment handy or even knowledge necessary for testing asks shop owner if this is REAL JADE. Owner says "No, that not jade. That molded resin made to look like jade. Real jade more expensive." Relieved that the shop owner seemed to be honest, the man sets the figurine down and continues to browse. After a few minutes of observing the man browsing his shop, the owner says "You like Buddha in jade, we make it special for you." And with that, the owner grabs the figurine and takes it into a back room. The man hears several excited voices, then furious hammering and sawing. The owner emerges from the backroom holding what appears to be the same figurine, but with one important difference... a little tag with the words "REAL JADE" scrawled on it. Owner says to the man "Buddha in real jade just like you wanted and only cost 2x more." The man is thrilled to get such great deal (REAL JADE, afterall cost 100x more everywhere else) and accomodating service. He buys the figurine, takes it home and proudly displays it, making sure the "REAL JADE" tag is clearly seen by all. He tells his friends and they tell theirs. Soon everyone has a REAL JADE Buddha figurine. The End.
clears skies,
Rick
--------------------
www.japanastro.com
Edited by Rick (09/29/06 07:27 PM)
|
BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2109
Loc: Washington, USA
|
|
I think it is great that so many people WANT to believe the best of their fellow man. Unfortunately, the times that most of us grew up in are long gone. And while it may not be politically correct, the fact remains that what is considered wholesome and honorable can change from culture to culture.
We are the center of our own universe and see things based on OUR values and experiences, giving little thought to the fact that millions of others do not share those values and experiences. Ask anyone who has traveled the world extensively and you will probably learn that in some cultures the ability to smoothly cheat your neighbor or maintain a sham is considered a mark of intelligence and maturity.
As Paul Harvey would say: “It’s not one world.”
Cheers,
Bill
--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .
|
Rick
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/12/05
Posts: 2574
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
|
|
Quote:
...in some cultures the ability to smoothly cheat your neighbor or maintain a sham is considered a mark of intelligence and maturity.
I'd say it is a badge of honor and the national sport for the citizens of some of these emerging capitalist nations.
It really is the Wild Wild East out here. Capitalism is practiced much like as in America in the 1890's.
-Rick
--------------------
www.japanastro.com
|
Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14686
Loc: Hurricane Alley
|
|
Quote:
...He buys the figurine, takes it home and proudly displays it, making sure the "REAL JADE" tag is clearly seen by all. He tells his friends and they tell theirs. Soon everyone has a REAL JADE Buddha figurine. The End.
Bill and Rick -
Your points are well taken, by me at least. I will consider myself "schooled" .... once again!
Kind of puts things in perspective.
Clear dark skies...
MikeG
--------------------
Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
| | |
Previous
Index
Next
Threaded
Edit
Reply
Quote
[Re: