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Scott R
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Reged: 01/18/05
Posts: 187
Loc: Atlanta, Ga
IS binos
      #1247948 - 11/12/06 10:36 AM

Can someone please tell me the largest magnification and objective aperture available in image stabilized binos? Thanx!

--------------------

A very understanding wife!!!
TV NP101 #1689
TV Focusmate
DiscMount DM-4
Miyauchi 100mm "Galaxy" Binocular
Bogen 3051 tripod
8x56 mm Orion binoculars





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Erik D
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Re: IS binos new [Re: Scott R]
      #1248013 - 11/12/06 11:11 AM

Scott,

This is the biggest(and one of the most expensive) IS bino I am aware of: The Zeiss 20X60

Here


The highest power Canon is 18X50 IS.

Here is another 20X IS:

And Here

URL edited for readability

Erik D

Edited by Tom Trusock (11/13/06 02:20 PM)


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cota_scope
sage
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Posts: 356
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Re: IS binos new [Re: Erik D]
      #1248342 - 11/12/06 03:14 PM

and another one

http://www.outdoorsmans.com/zeiss20x60stbl.htm

busted long URL edited for readibility

Edited by Tom Trusock (11/13/06 02:19 PM)


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KennyJ

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Posts: 10146
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Re: IS binos new [Re: cota_scope]
      #1248348 - 11/12/06 03:17 PM

Of course , one could always purchase a Fujinon 40 x 150 and put in on a suitable mount !

THAT would be REAL image stabilisation :-)

Regards , Kenny

--------------------
If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton





Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera


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CESDewar
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Re: IS binos new [Re: Scott R]
      #1248490 - 11/12/06 04:29 PM

Unfortunately, I have yet to see any good comparison reviews of the powerful IS binoculars (Zeiss/Canon/Newcon), but that's not too surprising as not too many people would buy all three!
I have the 18x50's and like most people who have purchased IS binoculars, quickly learn that the difference that IS makes is not minor - it's more magical (meaning that your expectations really DO get met).
The Zeiss units are the heaviest at 3.65lbs and my understanding is that you have to keep the IS button held down (which is something I did not like in the earlier Canon IS's which they later fixed). There are virtually no comments anywhere about the Newcon 20x50's. The specs are very impressive, and one should not be put off by the lower price per se as they are taking advantage of less expensive Russian labor and manufacturing to keep the price down. I did see that two sites (Telescopes.com and Optics4Hunting.com) have it marked "Discontinued" - but I don't think that's true - Newcon's website still shows this unit in their 2006 catalog. The Canons and Newcon's are about the same weight - 2.6lbs/1.1kg).

My Canon 18x50 did, after about six months, pick up the "shimmying" problem that some other people have reported with Canon IS binoculars. HOWEVER, it was swiftly fixed under warranty, and there has been no re-occurrence of those problems. I do find the EP's fog easily (esp. in the cold, humid evenings we get in the fall here in the SE), although the anti-fog EP slip-ins, while expensive, do take care of that issue well.

It does underscore an important aspect of IS binoculars - there is technology here (whether mechanical or electronic) that greatly increased the complexity and likelihood of failure - either due to component failure, or to dropping, etc. So I would place significant emphasis on that. I think Newcon only has a 1-year warranty, although it appears you can purchase an additional 2 yrs for $35. It would be smart to do that for $35. The Canon's have a 3-year warranty. High-end Zeiss binoculars usually have a life-time warranty, although there may be a separate warranty for the IS binoculars (but then again at $4,500+ maybe they DO have a lifetime warranty - they should do!).

The Zeiss's at four times the price and significantly more weight are clearly in a different league from the Canon/Newcon's which are about the same price (with rebates, the 18x50's can usually be found for $1,000 - I actually got mine for $899 after rebate with free shipping!). The Newcon's are typically just at $1k. I do find the Canon's manageable for longer viewing sessions, but it's definitely at the limit of what I find comfortable to handhold. It does chew through AA's pretty fast (esp. with a 5-minute timeout when you forget to turn it off), although I use rechargeables and always carry a spare set which eliminates that issue for me.

If anyone here has the Newcon's any comments at all would be of interest I think to many people. If the image is completely stabilized and delivers the 3" resolution they claim, these would be of interest.

--------------------


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Rich N
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Re: IS binos new [Re: KennyJ]
      #1248495 - 11/12/06 04:32 PM

Kenny, excellent point!

Rich


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btschumy
Think Astronomy
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Reged: 04/13/04
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Re: IS binos new [Re: CESDewar]
      #1248554 - 11/12/06 05:08 PM

I do find the EP's fog easily (esp. in the cold, humid evenings we get in the fall here in the SE), although the anti-fog EP slip-ins, while expensive, do take care of that issue well.

What are the anti-fog slip-ins? First I've heard of them.

--------------------
Bill Tschumy
Where is M13? Freeware -- Add a new dimension to your observing.


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CESDewar
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Re: IS binos new [Re: btschumy]
      #1248559 - 11/12/06 05:13 PM

Quote:

What are the anti-fog slip-ins? First I've heard of them.




It's a pair of special EP inserts that are held in place by the Rubber eyecups. Instead of glass, the inserts provide a special polymer (probably layered on glass) which inhibits the buildup of dew. They definitely work well, but they are very expensive (around $90) or so. On the other hand, a $1k pair of binoculars completely fogged up are about as useful as those 20-180/70 zoom binos

--------------------


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Alan French
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Re: IS binos new [Re: CESDewar]
      #1248706 - 11/12/06 07:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

What are the anti-fog slip-ins? First I've heard of them.




It's a pair of special EP inserts that are held in place by the Rubber eyecups. Instead of glass, the inserts provide a special polymer (probably layered on glass) which inhibits the buildup of dew. They definitely work well, but they are very expensive (around $90) or so. On the other hand, a $1k pair of binoculars completely fogged up are about as useful as those 20-180/70 zoom binos




The eye relief on most of the Canon IS binoculars is listed as 15mm, which turns out to be just enough for me to see the entire field (on the 10x30, 12x36, and 18x50, at least). I thought about getting the anti-fog inserts, but it sounds like they would take up some of the eye relief. Do they push your eye farther out if you wear glasses?

Thanks.

Clear skies, Alan


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pcad
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Re: IS binos new [Re: Alan French]
      #1249077 - 11/12/06 10:50 PM

Hi CESDewar,

I've owned a 16x50 Newcon/Optik stabilized image binocular for almost a year.
I'd be happy to write more about them tomorrow after work.

Here's some info on them.

100% mechanical
critically damped (almost) gimbal suspension
Button needs to be pressed continously for stabilization
Very good supression of fine tremors
ocean wave effect with medium movements
cemented doublet in eccentric ring cell
AR coatings of unknown type (prob MgF)
roof prism of unspecified design (?AR or ?PC)
vignetted to ~ a 2.2mm exit pupil (effective aperture of 35mm)
short eye relief of 11.5mm
68 deg AFOV, 4.3 deg TFOV as per manufacturer
independent focusers
Very rugged construction
~1.4kg (~3lb)
weatherproof
black (what did you expect, teal?)

The very short story is that these are daylight binos with that tiny exit pupil.
Other than that they work fine and are fun to use. More tomorrow.

Peter

Ed, does this qualify as a micro review?

Edited by pcad (11/12/06 10:57 PM)


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CESDewar
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Re: IS binos new [Re: Alan French]
      #1249267 - 11/13/06 12:59 AM

Quote:

I thought about getting the anti-fog inserts, but it sounds like they would take up some of the eye relief. Do they push your eye farther out if you wear glasses?




Yes and No. They are very thin and sit RIGHT against the EP's themselves. WIth the eyecups turned all the way down, the anti-fog inserts don't extend any distance at all passed the turned-down eyecup - they're that small. But you DO have to turn up the eyecups to hold them in place, otherwise they just fall out. I turn down about half the eye-cup to create a pseudo "wing" on the EP which works very nicely, but if you have glasses and normally view with the Eyecups turned completely down, that won't work here as there is nothing to hold them in place (you might be able to gerry-rig something to hold them in place though).

They do work very nicely. Tonight it was 27° with 92% RH, and it would not be possible to view without dewheaters everywhere (even my Leicas fogged over towards the end of this viewing session it was so humid), but the Canons never fogged up at all.

--------------------


Edited by CESDewar (11/13/06 01:01 AM)


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Erik D
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Re: IS binos new [Re: CESDewar]
      #1249560 - 11/13/06 09:26 AM

I don't know about you but that long URL is making this thread really difficult to read. It's like having to flip back and forth to another page just to complete a single line of text....

Erik D


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EdZModerator
Professor EdZ
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Re: IS binos new [Re: Erik D]
      #1249989 - 11/13/06 02:06 PM

I fixed several long URLs recently. What is it, is that feature so difficult to use? Personally, when I see threads like this that are messed up by a long URL, I just stop reading them. I can tell you I have not scrolled over to read any more than one post in this thread, frankly because I find it a royal pain to do so.

I would ask the poster to please edit the post and fix the URL.

edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21


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Erik D
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Re: IS binos new [Re: EdZ]
      #1250057 - 11/13/06 02:49 PM

Thank You, EdZ & Tom T.

Erik D


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Tom TrusockAdministrator

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Re: IS binos new [Re: Erik D]
      #1250077 - 11/13/06 03:04 PM

You are most welcome Erik.

Tom T.

--------------------
There are two theories to arguing with my wife. Neither one works.


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pcad
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Re: IS binos new [Re: Tom Trusock]
      #1250926 - 11/14/06 12:36 AM

A slightly longer review of Newcon/Optik's 16x50 stabilized image binocular.

Almost everyone enjoys using Image Stabilized (IS) binoculars. For those who don't, there's a huge range of non-IS binos to choose from. For those that want an IS bino there's only a few choices. The Canon series, with their variable prism design. There are some gyro-stabilized units from Nikon and Fujinon and a few others. Then there are two mechanical system choices, the Zeiss 20x60 and Newcon/Optik's 16x50 and 20x50. These require no batteries which is a great big plus in their favor.

I have no experience with any IS bino other than the Newcon 16x50, except for a brief time at NEAF when I used the demo Canon IS bino for a few seconds. Despite this I hope to convey possible differences and similarities between the 16x50 and the Canon products.

These are very different designs. Canon with its mini-gyro sensor giving the microprocessor info and then generating control signals to a variable prism is the high tech digital solution. Newcon relies on a free floating prism assembly connected to the body of the bino by a damped gimbal suspension. Both are elegant and effective in their own ways.

The following comments refer just to the Newcon 16x50.

The 16x50 arrived in a smallish box with adequate protective material. A simple box and cardboard sleeve contain the bino, soft case and neck strap, and a single sheet of instructions labled as the owners manual. No four color printing or complicated interlocking styrofoam blocks come with the Newcon, just the basics.

The body is a two piece aluminum housing that holds the objective cells, prisms and the damped gimbal assembly and the button that releases the lock down on the internal moving parts. IPD is adjusted by rotating the eyepiece assemblies in or out. These assemblies are geared together so that moving one will move the other.

The body is sealed against the weather but I doubt it can tolerate full immersion for any length of time. The body is sealed well enough but the eyepiece assemblies look vulnerable at the focusers.

Many comment that having to hold the button down all the time is a big issue. Pressing the button releases the floating prisms from their locked down position. It doesn't require much pressure and once pressed in a certain amount, the pressure required to keep it depressed decreases. For me, the button was just where my thumb rests and was comfortable to use.

The focusers are a non-rotating helical design. The tension needed on the focusing ring was not uniform. One side was smooth but the other had some stiffness in it as the ring was turned. This problem improved over time but never went away completely.

The eyepieces have roughly a 70 degree AFOV. Given that the eyepeice is no larger than normal, the eye relief of 11.5mm is too short for those with glasses. The outer surface is coated but I don't know about the inner surfaces.

The objectives are cemented doublets housed in eccentric ring cells. This is a classic way to adjust alignment. In this case it's the only reasonable way to do it since the floating prism, well, floats and isn't accessable anyway. I found myself needing to adjust the vertical alignment so I wouldn't have double vision last year. I had to clean the sealing grease off the entire eccentric assembly so I could align the bino. Once cleaned, getting it into conditional alignment wasn't too bad. I found that I had to mount the bino and press a marble gently against the button to float the prisms so the image wouldn't jump too much when activating the stabilization. No, this wasn't included in the one-page owner's manual.

The objectives do have AR coatings, but they seem to be The MgF type. The coating is much more subtle than the images on the website would lead one to believe.

Does it work? Of course it works. Press the release button and the shakes just dissapear. Detail not visable jumps out and noticably improves the image. I'm sure all IS devices give similar effects as the Newcon does. Since it's mechanical there is a swaying back and forth with modest movements, The system is close to being critcally damped which means for an impulse, the suspension moves back and forth only once and then comes to rest. In this case it's still moving slightly after one cycle. If a jolt or movement is too large the prism bumps into the bumper at the limit of it's movement. Say bye-bye to a stable image and lock the mechanism by releasing the button. Most users will be able to hold it steady enough to enjoy a stable image. Most will easily learn how much movement the bino can cope with before bouncing the prism around.

The damping is achievied with the use of a balanced rod extending from the gimbal near the rear of the bino to the front of the housing body. There's a mass at the end which rests between two other masses. I guess it's magnetic since there doesn't seem to be any other shock absorber or piston anywhere else inside the body of the bino. I might be wrong about this, it wouldn't be the first time. I get the feeling that this bino is designed mostly for terrestrial use. If the damping rod is long and horizontal it works fine. When the unit is pointed straight up the effective length of that rod shrinks and the damping effect is minimized. Not the way an astronomical device should be designed in my way of thinking.

The device seems crippled from the start with the vignetted design leaving a small 2.2mm exit pupil. I believe this has to do with the floating prism design. As the body moves and twists, the gimbaled prisms stays essentially motionless. This means that the objectives and the eyepieces are moving in relation to the prisms. I suspect that the design limits the view of the prism to 35mm so that as it sways around off axis it still sees a 35mm objective and does not encounter the edge of the objective and have a sudden decrease in illumination. This gives about 7.5mm ring around an imaginary 35mm central diameter for the prism to sway without seeming to change illumination. The Canon binos don't have any of these concerns since the erecting prisms are fixed and the variable prism isn't swaying but is changing the angle of it's face or faces. This critical difference allows the Canons to be used at night and the Newcon only in the daylight.

In their website, there is a picture of a 16x50 with image intensifiers attached to both ep's. I believe that would cure it's night blindness in a big way. These night vision units are not imported to the US for what I can only imagine are security reasons. Shucks.

Once the limitations of the Newcon are accepted it performs very well. It's designed to be used from a moving vehicle and it does this beautifully. Using the 16x50 from inside a moving car, license plates at a considerable distance become steady as stones when the unit is stabilized. It also makes a handheld 16x device easy to use.

One added feature is that it works equally well upside down. if your left thumb gets tired, just turn it over and operate the button with your right forefinger. This is apparently what they did to give the 20x50 it's own "look". From what I can tell it's just an upside down 16x50 with differant eyepieces. Since they have to be a shorter focal length to get 20x, the eye relief may become even shorter unless a more sophisticated ep design is used.

I hope that answered some questions people had about the mysterious Newcon IS binoculars.

Peter

--------------------
Peter

Telescopes 25 - 318 mm
Binoculars 15 - 88 mm
Microscope 50x - 1000x

Edited by pcad (11/16/06 11:22 PM)


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KennyJ

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Re: IS binos new [Re: pcad]
      #1250975 - 11/14/06 02:01 AM

Peter ,

May I be the first of hopefully several appreciative members here to thank you for a great effort in describing this rarely mentioned instrument .

I note there are one or two instances where you have used the figure 20 where I expected to see the figure 50 , so please either correct me if I'm wrong , or edit the text to clarify what is a very fine , interesting and useful report .

Regards , Kenny

--------------------
If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton





Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera


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pcad
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: IS binos new [Re: KennyJ]
      #1251003 - 11/14/06 04:15 AM

Hi Kenny,

Thanks. I think I found all the typos. I finally got around to writing about the Newcon 16x50 months after I said I would. This being such a daylight binocular, maybe it should end up in the Cloudy Days forum?

Peter

--------------------
Peter

Telescopes 25 - 318 mm
Binoculars 15 - 88 mm
Microscope 50x - 1000x


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EdZModerator
Professor EdZ
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Re: IS binos new [Re: pcad]
      #1251853 - 11/14/06 05:24 PM

Maybe you could at least copy and past all the info to one post and repost it all under its own name, instead of leaving in buried in a non-descript thread.

edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21


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Tom TrusockAdministrator

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Re: IS binos new [Re: EdZ]
      #1254481 - 11/16/06 11:56 AM

Hey Peter,

How about sending it to: submit@cloudynights.com

By their very nature, forums are a transitory thing, it would be nice to get some of these really nice mini-reviews archived on the web side of CN.

Thanks!

Tom T.

--------------------
There are two theories to arguing with my wife. Neither one works.


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