Anonymous
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I have been reading around and in terms of bang for the buck, the Oberwerk Binocs seem to be a good choice. I am a novice in binocular astronomy and I am using this as a test (and an eventual complement) before I go out and buy a telescope.
Bearing in mind that I have never done this before, my question is whether I should stick to the 15X70 Oberwerks or go for the 20X80. I am trying to stay under $200 for this purchase.
If someone thinks that I should be considering another brand, let me know that too.
Thanks,
Tom Haymes
Katy, Texas
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Heya Tom, I am in S Houston, and thinking about getting a pair of Oberwerks too, so I am going to tag along and read the responses you get. Are you going to Astronomy Day sat? or the big meeting friday night?
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12581
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Assuming you already have seen the Oberwerk comparisons, the 20x80 question nedds to go further. Oberwerk alone has three diffent models of 20x80s.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12581
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Equivalent quality 20x80 vs 15x70s should give you a net increase of anout 1/3 to 1/2 magnitude gain. That would allow you to see roughly 50% more stars. The 20x magnification allows you to see more.
80mm gathers more light but 15x70s with 4.66mm exit pupil will provide a brighter image.
20x80 has 3.3° to 3.5° Tfov, 15x70 has 4.3° to 4.4° Tfov. The area of the view in 15x70 is 50% to 60% greater.
20x80s are heavier, need sturdier tripod. If you jump up to deluxe then they are 2x to 3x heavier, need much bigger tripod.
The jump from 15x70 to 20x80 is only half of what you get when you jump from 10x50 to 15x70.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I was looking at the new Lightweight (LW) 20X80 as a possibility - not the Deluxe since they are out of my price range (under $200).
I am also a little concerned about how tough these things might be to handle. I have a good tripod (I am a pretty serious photographer so I have a $400 Gitzo tripod) but I am still getting the feel of finding things in the sky. I am a little worried about the 20X magnification and field of view making that job very difficult. At the same time, I want to be able to fully enjoy the benefits of binocular astronomy and be able to see objects, particularly nebula, that are not easily seen by the naked eye.
So, that is my trade-off between the 15X and 20X. Most astronomy books recommend even going to a 7X50 as a starter but I think I want more than that. I currently have an 8X20 Zeiss monocular which I have used from time to time (obviously with a 20 aperture, astronomy was not why I bought it) and I know what kind of magnification I can get with that (I can see the Orion nebula as a cloud with multiple stars and the moon looks pretty cool but that's about it) and I want to make a serious step up from that - but I don't know what to expect at different magnifications.
I've carefully read some of the articles on this site (and they are great) but they were all written by experienced skywatchers. I don't want to get more horsepower than I can handle the first time out and get frustrated with it (another reason I am starting with binocs rather than a scope).
What do you guys think?
Thanks,
Tom
A note to Tactstat: I don't make it to the Star Parties that much (I assume you are referring to Brazos Bend) since I have a 7-month old kid and going out there - unless we camp tends to disrupt his sleep schedule. I plan to attend more in the future - especially now that it is has gotten cooler and we can camp out there. Now the trick is finding the time in the family schedule...
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10146
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Tom --- you said :
"I am a little worried about the 20X magnification and field of view making that job very difficult. At the same time, I want to be able to fully enjoy the benefits of binocular astronomy and be able to see objects, particularly nebula, that are not easily seen by the naked eye"
---and by doing so you have described your dilemna perfectly
There are people I know , far more experienced than myself who have concluded that the step up from 15x to 20x power for astronomy purposes is insuffiently great to warrant buying a 20 x 80 IF one already owns a 15 x 70.
This may or may not be true.
On the other hand , our learned friend Ed Z who advises you above has probably carried out more very detailed studies of astro -viewing of a technical nature between binoculars of various configurations than any other person living, and his conclusions tend to lean towards the 20 x 80 being a superior "tool" for your kind of proposed viewing.
I would be very reluctant to disagree with one as knowledgable as Ed, whose modesty has possibly preventing him from directing you to his forthcoming article here on Cloudy Nights entitled Binocular Limiting Magnitudes.
This is worth waiting for , trust me .
Certainly if nebulae are your primary targets the higher the magnification the better.
Remember that both 15 x 70s and 20 x 80s will require tripod mounting for any kind of "serious" viewing so to me the choice is down to purely and simply the preference of 33% extra power against 50% larger TFOV.
Figures and percentages such as this are all well and good
but when you are out there in the dark with little knowledge of the constellations etc , believe me "star-hopping" can be tricky enough with a 4 degree TFOV let alone 3.3 degrees.
A real tough one for me ,who despises NARROW FOVs and ended up going with the 15 x 70s.
For YOU -- I've a hunch the 20 x 80s LWs might just be better .
Good luck with whatever you decide.--Kenny.
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If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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As regards the 20x80 light versus the standard, I note that the light version does save a bit of weight but is significantly longer than the standard. Is this worth the weight saving ? The length difference also suggests a different optical lay out. I wonder which performs best ? I think the standard looks more elegant and also does it come with a stouter hard case ? Is a nylon case supplied with the light version ?
Has anyone on the forum used both ?
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rboe
Numbfinger
Reged: 03/16/02
Posts: 39712
Loc: Phx, AZ
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I own an earlier version of the 15X70, the '01 I think and I have been quite pleased with them. The 80's came out afterwords and I may have been talked into that route if available. The newer 15X70's are built better, and have better coatings from what I've read. I lean towards a wide field view and grab the telescope if I want more magnification.
There are two kinds of people in the world. Wide field & Narrow field. Choose wisely. 
Lucky for you, once you choose and think the grass is greener on the other side, just buy the other binocular. Like the candy bar; some times you feel like a nut: Sometimes you don't. It's not like we're talking $3000 SCT's here. And once you have two (take your time, they get better every year it seems) you won't have to share with your wife. Each can have their own. win win.
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Ron
NS11GPS
Pronto
16" dob
15X70 Obies
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I like your philosophy, Ron. I think I can definitely say I'm a wide field kinda guy...the scope is for getting up close and personal!
Tom
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Can anyone tell me if there are things that I can and can't see between 15X and 20X? Like, for instance, can either resolve the rings of Saturn or that something for the scope? At this point I think I am a little less interested in splitting double stars but I would like to see some color in stars and nebula.
What's realistic in this area? I am starting to lean towards the 15X20s but I want to make sure I am not missing out on something cool with the extra 33%.
Thanks,
Tom
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12581
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Oberwerk 15x70s can separate 3 of the 4 stars in the trapezium. The closest components are 8.7" and they cannot be split with the 15x70s. The 20x80s can split all four components of the trapezium.
The rings of Saturn can be seen in both, but not at any magnification that will show you anyting but a tiny black space at the ansae.
Color is easily seen in both by many observers who look thru my binocs.
Your success on doubles is going to be directly related to your maximum visual acuity. I've measured mine in a range of 155 arcseconds to 180 arcseconds. A few others I've been collecting data from are more in the range of 170 to 200. If you have a maximum visual acuity of 200 arcseconds you will not be able to split anyting below 10" with a 20x binocular. If you have good eyes you are probably in 105 to 180 range.
I have put a whole slew of posts on this topic in both the binocular and the double star forum. Go read acuity, minimum magnification, splitting with binocs posts.
Detail in nebulae is going to be more dependant on size of exit pupil. The 15s win out here over 20x80s, but probably not over 22x100s.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Thanks to everyone for the input. It sounds like the 15x70 are my best bet for now. They seem to do everything I want and I'll save the really tough objects for the Dobsonian reflector in my future.
Thanks again,
Tom Haymes
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Diego
super member
Reged: 07/29/03
Posts: 179
Loc: Argentina South America
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"Color is easily seen in both by many observers who look thru my binocs"
Hey Edz...just a quick question, do you mean color from chromatic aberration?
Tom: I don't know much about binoculars, but I'd go with the 20X80. The extra magnification will make a big difference. I always thought that lower mag. was better because of brighter images, but a fews nights ago I changed my mind 180º. While viewing M42, I started with a low power 40mm Plossel (23X). The image was bright, but it was a tiny bright shapeless smudge, trapezium almost starlike.
Then I slipped in a 16.3 Erfle (56X) and now *that* was the Orion Nebula, both wings clearly extending almost the whole FOV, trapizium clearly visible, even a hint of M43 was disernable. Go for the higher mag and larger glass.
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Diego
Celestron 80 mm f11.4
Oberwerk 20x90
6" f7.8 Reflector
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12581
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Nop, I meant star colors. Like Albierio or any single stars. Color seems to jump out at you in the binocs. At astronomy nights, kids are always commenting how easy it is to see the color of stars. They're right.
The only time I see any chromatic abberation is on the brightest planets and the moon, and mostly only when viewed off-axis.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Rusty
Postmaster
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 16399
Loc: Brooker, FL
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Coupla comments - the Gitzo tripod Haymest has should be adequate (the Oberwerks are remarkably light). I'm shortly getting the 22x100s (insert Tim Allen grunts here) and am going to try them on both of my large tripods. One is an huge Brand X "video" tripod with the fluid damping (rated at 20# from the Betamax days), and the other a standard HD Bogen with nothing except large everything and a detachable shoe (which I like for fumbling around in the dark - put the shoe on the binocs, insert into tripod, and go). Incidentally, I have a spare red-dot finder that I'm going to stick on these. At least if the weather does its usual thing, I can see SOMETHING! 
I don't really need the binocs, but after 3 horrid months, the weather cleared last night (naturally today was the one in 100 I had an extremely early day), and I'm very afraid I might be able to see a star (are there really any out there?) Does the New Scope Stuff Curse work for binocs, too, does anybody know?
BTW, has anyone put any of the bigger binocs on a tracking mount or piggybacked on one? I know that for the higher elevations, it would probably suck for straight throughs, but I'm toying with the idea of a piggyback...and, yeah, it's getting to the point the main tube is becoming only a mounting point for all the other goodies...
Eventually I expect to make a parallogram mount for the Obers (have another, smaller pair) like Gene Artemyeff's (http://www.cloudynights.com/ATM/comet_couch.htm), but not yet..."Work is the curse of the drinking class" - Lenin (Irving, not Vladimir)
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N11GPS Fastar
TOA-130S
MK66 Std
Vintage C5
Megrez II 80mm ED Triplet APO
SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II
Sirius EQ-G
ST8XE/CFW-8(LRGBHa)/AO-7/DF-2/STV Dlx/ST237a/350D (Unmodded)/Mallincam Color Hyper Plus/DSI III Color/DSI II Pro
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Maggie and Casey
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Rusty,
If you would, post what you think of the 22x100s when you get them. Ive been resisting the temptation to get a pair myself and would love to hear what your impressions are. Both of the optics and how your mounting options work out.
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Rusty
Postmaster
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 16399
Loc: Brooker, FL
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What?! You want me to take them outside? Out of the display case? Get 'em all nasty with dust and fingerprints (and drool)?
I'll think about when I get 'em, but it sure sounds like a sacrifice to me 
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N11GPS Fastar
TOA-130S
MK66 Std
Vintage C5
Megrez II 80mm ED Triplet APO
SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II
Sirius EQ-G
ST8XE/CFW-8(LRGBHa)/AO-7/DF-2/STV Dlx/ST237a/350D (Unmodded)/Mallincam Color Hyper Plus/DSI III Color/DSI II Pro
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Maggie and Casey
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Yeah what a dilemma, the last time I took my new Oberwerks out someone actually had the nerve to turn the focuser....go figure. 
Seriously...im sitting on pins and needles wating for your full report.... 
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Rusty
Postmaster
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 16399
Loc: Brooker, FL
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Oh, man - now I AM concerned - I wonder how much wear somebody will put on 'em looking through them 
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N11GPS Fastar
TOA-130S
MK66 Std
Vintage C5
Megrez II 80mm ED Triplet APO
SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II
Sirius EQ-G
ST8XE/CFW-8(LRGBHa)/AO-7/DF-2/STV Dlx/ST237a/350D (Unmodded)/Mallincam Color Hyper Plus/DSI III Color/DSI II Pro
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Maggie and Casey
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
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Rusty
Postmaster
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 16399
Loc: Brooker, FL
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They're HERE! Tripod fit my not be as easy as expected, and whoever said the 20x80mm fold-down eyecups pop right in to replace the winged eyecups for the 22x100 is too optomistic....or nuts...NO instruction sheet.
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N11GPS Fastar
TOA-130S
MK66 Std
Vintage C5
Megrez II 80mm ED Triplet APO
SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II
Sirius EQ-G
ST8XE/CFW-8(LRGBHa)/AO-7/DF-2/STV Dlx/ST237a/350D (Unmodded)/Mallincam Color Hyper Plus/DSI III Color/DSI II Pro
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Maggie and Casey
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Loking at the Oberwerk website shows that to confuse us further and to increase the impossible choices , they have brought out a 90. Surely that 120 can't be long coming !
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Rusty
Postmaster
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 16399
Loc: Brooker, FL
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Slaying the Dragon(Oberwerk 22x100)...I got the 20x80 eyecups on with a little liquid soap. Conveniently, one of the eyecups has the diopter settings molded in, which will be impossible to see at night, but will allow me to reset after letting someone else use 'em. There was a mysterious hard rubber (or something) disc, which I figured out threads onto the outside of the mounting shaft, probably to add stability (it has 1/4" thread for the mount, which seems a little tiny).
The binocs come in a decent case, but with cheap, tight-fitting, rigid foam - great for shipping, but when I removed the binocs, the squeaking sent two of the cats scurrying upstairs. I'll replace that shortly.
The Weather Gnome has struck - I was ready for the dark sky site, and a considerable band of clouds swept in late this afternoon. So now we know the Curse of the New Gear strikes binos as well as scopes. 
Anyway, initial impressions of the big guy is favorable - clean design, collimation appears right on (really not that hard to hand-hold at 8.8 lbs). I'll eventually get around to a review. Unless the 120s ianw predicts show up shortly.
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N11GPS Fastar
TOA-130S
MK66 Std
Vintage C5
Megrez II 80mm ED Triplet APO
SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II
Sirius EQ-G
ST8XE/CFW-8(LRGBHa)/AO-7/DF-2/STV Dlx/ST237a/350D (Unmodded)/Mallincam Color Hyper Plus/DSI III Color/DSI II Pro
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Maggie and Casey
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Alright! Sounds like a good day at your house, you gotta love getting presents in the mail..:) I was THIS close to ordering a pair last week, (The tripod issue is holding me back for now) Just need something or someone to push me over the edge....:) Impossible choices is right....as if we needed anymore to consider. The 90s do like very nice, hopefully well see a review soon.
If you say what I hope your gonna say about the 100s Rusty, ill have no need to consider the 90s....:)
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Rusty
Postmaster
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 16399
Loc: Brooker, FL
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Nudge, nudge, nudge - Omigod, Tpalmer just fell into the Abyss of Big Binoc Love. Oh, well....
I have a tripod issue, too; although I have two big enough to hold them, the heads aren't really hosses enough for steady viewing...looking for another tripod with a HD head, or another head for my present tripods.
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N11GPS Fastar
TOA-130S
MK66 Std
Vintage C5
Megrez II 80mm ED Triplet APO
SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II
Sirius EQ-G
ST8XE/CFW-8(LRGBHa)/AO-7/DF-2/STV Dlx/ST237a/350D (Unmodded)/Mallincam Color Hyper Plus/DSI III Color/DSI II Pro
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Maggie and Casey
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Thats all thats holding me back pretty much, im using a lightweight (cheap) tripod for my 11x70s. It works, but just barely, another item on my shopping list. Im so tempted I almost ordered 100s anyway..."ill lean against the house or the car"...but pragmatism has got the best of me...
Had any dark nights with them yet???
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Rusty
Postmaster
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 16399
Loc: Brooker, FL
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Well, I've learned the Curse of the New Glass not only follows binocs, but it doubles up - one for each tube...four crappy nights in a row, now. I expect two or three more years of overcast, as my Denks arrived today.
Anybody seen any radio telescopes on Astromart lately?
But I did get an EQ1 head through Astromart, so that should be nice for the Oberwerks - even had a 1/4" adaptor on it. I think I'll make legs, as my 2 large tripods top out at about my eye level.
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N11GPS Fastar
TOA-130S
MK66 Std
Vintage C5
Megrez II 80mm ED Triplet APO
SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II
Sirius EQ-G
ST8XE/CFW-8(LRGBHa)/AO-7/DF-2/STV Dlx/ST237a/350D (Unmodded)/Mallincam Color Hyper Plus/DSI III Color/DSI II Pro
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Maggie and Casey
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
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