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Mike Rapchak
sage


Reged: 11/17/06
Posts: 450
Loc: Indiana, USA
Zhumell 20x80s on Sale
      #1305155 - 12/15/06 03:36 PM

Hello,

In case anyone might be interested, Binoculars.com is currently having a sale on the Zhumell 12x80 binos: $99.99.

Mike Rapchak Jr.


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edcannon
professor emeritus


Reged: 11/19/03
Posts: 679
Loc: Austin, Texas
Re: Zhumell 20x80s on Sale new [Re: Mike Rapchak]
      #1306179 - 12/16/06 04:29 AM

I find the 20x80 for $149 but can't find the 12x80. The 20x80 is featured on the front page of the binoculars.com site, with a link to more information. The write-up says it's BaK-4 prisms and fully multicoated. It says its eye relief is 17mm, and the FOV is 189 ft/1000 yds, or about 3.6 degrees. It weighs 4.4 pounds (2 kg). ... Hmmm. If you go to their article about astronomy binoculars and look at their "top picks", the same 20x80 is listed for $139 -- probably a typo.

I received a binoculars.com catalog via snail-mail -- first time. They seem to be making an aggressive marketing move, and Zhumell seems to be doing something similar. Anyone here dealt with either of them?

--------------------
Ed Cannon - Austin, Texas, USA

As of 23 August 2008 - Celestron Skymaster 12x60


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Mike Rapchak
sage


Reged: 11/17/06
Posts: 450
Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: Zhumell 20x80s on Sale new [Re: edcannon]
      #1306351 - 12/16/06 10:12 AM

Ed,

Oops! I'm so sorry! - I meant 20x80s, not 12x80s (AFAIK there is no 12x80 model of these Zhumells). I was thinking about my Vixen 12x80s when I typed the post.

I get Binoculars.com's e-newsletters; this is how I found out about the $99.99 special on these binos.

Again, my apologies for the error!

Mike Rapchak Jr.


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Mike Rapchak
sage


Reged: 11/17/06
Posts: 450
Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: Zhumell 20x80s on Sale new [Re: edcannon]
      #1306365 - 12/16/06 10:21 AM

Ed,

Here is the link to the special on the binos (I hope it works). Now that I look at it again I think it's only a 3-day-long sale. And I'm now wondering if this special is only offered to Binoculars.com customers (of which I am one). I hope not, as this info is then N/A to non-customers.

Mike Rapchak Jr.

http://www.binoculars.com/holiday-gift-shop/index.php


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Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2554
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
Re: Zhumell 20x80s on Sale new [Re: Mike Rapchak]
      #1306518 - 12/16/06 11:48 AM

Quote:


Short history here: It was only within the past 3 months that I became aware of the fact that 100mm-type binoculars could be had at such incredibly low prices. After somewhat intense investigating (and also a referral by one of the prominent sellers of these instruments) I made the plunge and bought a pair of Zhumell Tachyon 25x100s. First light was a major disappointment as the optics were inferior. I could not achieve the same image in both eyepieces, i.e., the right side would not focus sharply while the left would; however, the left exhibited lopsided distortion/spiking of stellar images. Also, it (left) seemed to have its best foucs off-center. I found these optics essentially useless, so I returned the binos.

I know that "cheap" big binos are the current rage, but IMO purchase of such is a hit-or-miss proposition. I don't see how anyone could honestly expect to acquire good optics at such a low price - and from a country (China) that has relatively little experience in optics manufacture (as opposed to, say, Japan or Germany)..........

Mike Rapchak Jr.




____________________________________________________________________

I guess even after that encounter with a "cheap" Chinese Big Bino you would be willing to give Zhumell & Binoculars.com a try, IF the price is right?

Erik D


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Mike Rapchak
sage


Reged: 11/17/06
Posts: 450
Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: Zhumell 20x80s on Sale new [Re: Erik D]
      #1306652 - 12/16/06 01:39 PM

Erik,

Please forgive the apparent contradictive nature of my coments. While I feel that my concern/dismay over consistent optical quality - particularly with the Chinese instruments - is valid, I didn't really mean it as a blanket condemnation/utter and final rejection of them. True, I was very disappointed with the performance of my pair of Zhumell 25x100s, but in this case it was probably as much an emotional thing as an objective one (no pun intended). By this I mean: this was my first-ever experience in the realm of giant binos, so, being perhaps naive and idealistic, I may have been a bit more "vulnerable" to problems with them, and I may have been expecting too much in the way of perfection. Were the 25x100s THAT bad? Not necessarily. But to me their performance was ultimately unacceptable. By comparison my Vixen 12x80s are real gems, capable of image quality that I deeply wish the Zhumells had been.

So my conclusions about the Chinese binos are, at least to myself, still valid. However, this is not to imply that all Chinese binos are of this quality. My main concern is the extreme aggravation/frustration with finding a good pair, i.e., in the sense that most of us have to mail-order these items and can't personally examine them before purchase. Let's say that one has to try out three pairs of a particular model before he/she gets a "keeper". The amount of time involved in contacting the dealer, arranging for shipment back of the defective pair, waiting for the next pair to arrive only to find out that it too is defective and needs to be returned for yet another, etc., ect., can require the patience of a saint. To me this is just as big of a factor in dealing with these instruments as is that of the inconsistent optical quality. If the quality was consistent (of course I mean GOOD quality), the entire shipping-back-&-forth nightmare would in most cases be eliminated entirely.

Another thing I considered when posting the 20x80 sale announcement - and please correct me if I'm wrong - is that IMO there may be a better chance of receiving a good pair of 20x80s than there is of a pair of 25x100s since it may be that with the smaller pair it is easier to achieve acceptable optical quality/performance than with the larger pair. My impression is that with the larger pair lens figuring/grinding, etc., may be a bit more critical, and any optical imperfections may be more obvious. Also, because of their size (length if not weight) they may be more prone to problems like barrel alignment. Again, I may be wrong about all this, but it seems possible.

Incidentally, I will also say that one big reason I chose the Vixen 12x80s a replacement for the 25x100s was size. I actually found the Zhumells to be large enough to be a bit of a hindrance. Not excessively so, but just enough to where they were a bit of a hassle to use (again, this may well be a result of my first encounter with an instrument of this size, being used to a pair of Celestron 10x50s). Even so, if the optical quality/performance had been there I certainly could have accepted this minor size/inconvenience condition. As it turned out it just added its influnece to my disappointment with them and helped finalize my decision to return them. Yet my intial urge was to return them for another pair of same. This is when I first began to weigh the pros and cons of such a decision and reluctantly decided against it. In other words, I dearly wanted a good pair of these big guys but didn't want to suffer through the agony of not knowing if I'd get lucky the second time around, or worse, receiving another defective pair. I would have "died" (a good example of what I'm trying to describe here is Glassthrower's relatively recent experience with his newly-acquired pair of - oh, gosh, what were they? 22x85's? He was so very upset and crestfallen with their performance when actually they weren't quite so bad afterall; IIRC some it had to do with his eyeglasses. His was a VERY emotional reaction to his state of affairs - perhaps not exactly calm and objective but one that I feel is legitimate and that I can totally relate to and sympathize with).

So, as far as the Zhumell 20x80s are concerned, even if "long-distance" purchase of these Chnese binos can, IMO, be a risky affair, I felt that many may find the idea of a $99 pair of 20x80s worth the risk. That's a heck of a price for an instrument of that size - assuming it can be had by folks who aren't already Binoculars.com customers.

Mike Rapchak Jr.


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firestar
Born to be Mild
****

Reged: 10/18/06
Posts: 3942
Loc: Cleveland Ohio USA
Re: Zhumell 20x80s on Sale new [Re: Mike Rapchak]
      #1306704 - 12/16/06 02:09 PM

What did you pay for the vixens?

--------------------
Eastlake Ohio

Lots of cheap Asian glass
Antares 12" Dob,Antares 8" Dob
Meade 8" SCT, Celestron C8 SCT
Zhumell 152 mm F8,Antares 127 mm f9.4
Orion short tube 90 F5.6,Celestron 80 ED F7.5
Imaging Source DMK 21AU04 ccd camera
Stellarvue bv3's with 32,26,23,21,9 mm pairs
Olivon 42,35,28mm,siebert 21,12.5,7mm,GSO superview 20mm,Meade swa 13.8mm,Hyperion 13mm


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BillC
on a new path
*****

Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2109
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Zhumell 20x80s on Sale new [Re: firestar]
      #1306729 - 12/16/06 02:41 PM

The “Send Backs” can be almost eliminated. Guys like me can do that for the bino world. The problem is that most people who have a clue what they are doing, the equipment to do it at all and the concern to spend time doing it, are either NOT going to play the work-yourself-to-death-then give-it-to-me-cheap game or go out of business trying to be all things to all people. I am certainly not going there. And that is what throws up the wall. Rather than be an “elitist” like those they love to disparage, some folks will send the same cheap binocular back to the “factory” again and again hoping to get a “quality” product at SOME point. . . . Ain’t gonna happen. Why?

First, while large binos such as the Nikon Astrolux and the Fujinon MT and FMT series are built to the same optical, mechanical and collimation standards as the smaller military / marine models, most large, cheap binoculars are just that: large CHEAP binoculars.

Business Guru Ken Blankenship (The One Minute Manager, Raving Fans, The Secret and about 25 more books) has defined insanity this way:

“Insanity—doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”

Yet, how many people do we know who would NEVER spend the $700 it would take to buy a world-class bino to last them the rest of their lives (and will think anyone who would is an elitist with more money than intelligence), but will spend more than $5,000 buying, returning and complaining about, buying, returning and complaining about—ad nauseum—the same, or similar, paper weight in the hopes that it will some day become what it NEVER can be!?

Over the next 30 years, the fellow who buys the good product to start with will spend many hours enjoying the wonder of the night sky. Over the same 30-year period, the fellow who chooses to buy department store binos will spend hours packaging-up, calling the vendor, calling UPS, sending faxes, waiting for the next package from UPS, cursing his luck (related more to common sense than the alignment of the stars and planets) and in defending his purchase to all who will listen, rather than admit the mistake and take corrective action.

But then, that’s just me. And I’m a vendor who is an elitist optical snob who cares not one whit about his fellow man . . . ‘cept maybe Kenny . . . or JOAD . . . or EdZ . . . or dgs@ . . . or John . . . or Rick . . . or Joe . . . or Brocknroller . . . or . . . . . . . . . S’cuse me while I go get a phone book.

Cheers,

Bill

P.S. This memo was pointed at a concept that I have been dealing with since before CN was conceived and has NOTHING to do with any recent assertions or admissions.

--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .


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firestar
Born to be Mild
****

Reged: 10/18/06
Posts: 3942
Loc: Cleveland Ohio USA
Re: Zhumell 20x80s on Sale new [Re: BillC]
      #1306753 - 12/16/06 03:06 PM

anyone know where I can buy some zhumell stock?
just ordered the 20x80's go big z!

--------------------
Eastlake Ohio

Lots of cheap Asian glass
Antares 12" Dob,Antares 8" Dob
Meade 8" SCT, Celestron C8 SCT
Zhumell 152 mm F8,Antares 127 mm f9.4
Orion short tube 90 F5.6,Celestron 80 ED F7.5
Imaging Source DMK 21AU04 ccd camera
Stellarvue bv3's with 32,26,23,21,9 mm pairs
Olivon 42,35,28mm,siebert 21,12.5,7mm,GSO superview 20mm,Meade swa 13.8mm,Hyperion 13mm


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Mike Rapchak
sage


Reged: 11/17/06
Posts: 450
Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: Zhumell 20x80s on Sale new [Re: firestar]
      #1306817 - 12/16/06 03:59 PM

Firestar,

I paid $540. That's about $200 more than the Zhumells; to me they're worth the extra tab.

BTW, I got both pair from Binoculars.com - good folks to do business with!

Mike R.


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firestar
Born to be Mild
****

Reged: 10/18/06
Posts: 3942
Loc: Cleveland Ohio USA
Re: Zhumell 20x80s on Sale new [Re: Mike Rapchak]
      #1306848 - 12/16/06 04:17 PM

Thanks,I kinda figured that.
I make it a habit to not look at stuff I cant afford,that way I won't know what I'm missing.
For $99 bucks I wont have a canary when I drop them either.


--------------------
Eastlake Ohio

Lots of cheap Asian glass
Antares 12" Dob,Antares 8" Dob
Meade 8" SCT, Celestron C8 SCT
Zhumell 152 mm F8,Antares 127 mm f9.4
Orion short tube 90 F5.6,Celestron 80 ED F7.5
Imaging Source DMK 21AU04 ccd camera
Stellarvue bv3's with 32,26,23,21,9 mm pairs
Olivon 42,35,28mm,siebert 21,12.5,7mm,GSO superview 20mm,Meade swa 13.8mm,Hyperion 13mm


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Mike Rapchak
sage


Reged: 11/17/06
Posts: 450
Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: Zhumell 20x80s on Sale new [Re: BillC]
      #1306861 - 12/16/06 04:21 PM

Bill,

Wow - you sure hit the nail on the head here! I want to thank you for your very frank, factual commentary.

What you describe is exactly the situation I do not want to end up in. This is why I went with the smaller Vixens rather than gamble on another pair of the big 25x100s. To me price is still an indicator of quality, a lesson I learned quickly from my recent experiences and one confirmed by your comments.

I'm now considering a pair of the Oberwerk/Garrett BT/GT100s. I was also impressed by the new Garrett 20/28/30x110s. Bigger objectives than the BTs at less than half the price. But here we go again: what are the odds of getting a good pair of 110s at $600 vs a good pair of BT/GT100s at $1700-1800? Although (AFAIK) the BTs are Chinese-made, apparently their quality is considerably above that of the "too-good-to-be-true" economical Chinese super-giants. Most comments/reviews of the BT100s posted here seem to bear this out.

Out of curiosity, what brands do you sell? What would you recommend as a good product? Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated!

Mike Rapchak Jr.


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Joad
Wordsmith
*****

Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 11919
Re: Zhumell 20x80s on Sale new [Re: Mike Rapchak]
      #1307069 - 12/16/06 06:30 PM

Hi Mike,

All of Oberwerk and Garrett stock is Chinese made. "Chinese made" no longer means "poor quality." The Chinese factories will build to the specifications of their clients, and Oberwerk and Garrett have built a reputation for demanding high standards from their suppliers. Each company also has the know-how to check each instrument sold and will fix problems.

Still, top-quality production now tends to refer to Japanese companies (including but not necessarily limited to Kowa, Fujinon, Nikon, Miyauchi--when manufactured in Japan) and German/Austrian (including but not necessarily limited to Zeiss, Leica, Swarovski, Steiner). Anything over 70mm in objective aperture with these top quality firms becomes very expensive indeed, more than most can afford (a Zeiss or Leica 40 or 50mm binocular will cost around $2000 or more). Indeed, if one cannot go beyond $2000, and wants 100mm of aperture, one's choice will be limited entirely to Chinese manufacture. Frankly, I could go beyond $2000, but am satisfied with my Oberwerk 45° 100mm BT. I could afford a 45° Fujinon 150mm if it came to that, but the price of such an instrument with a proper mount and tripod is more than I care to pay for a car.

However, I have learned that paying $100 or thereabouts, and less, for a binocular is courting trouble. The mid-ground of prices is thus the place for most who are neither able nor willing to pay for the premium stuff. With companies like Oberwerk and Garrett and, now, Astrophysics, getting good quality stuff from China, the mid-ground is opening up very well, especially with the new offerings of higher-end Chinese stuff.


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coopman
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 04/23/06
Posts: 1209
Loc: South Louisiana
Re: Zhumell 20x80s on Sale new [Re: Joad]
      #1307279 - 12/16/06 09:38 PM

Garrett Optical's quality checks before shipment make their binos a reliable product.

--------------------
Regards,
Clay

"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." Psalms 19:1


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hallelujah
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1660
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
Re: Zhumell 20x80s on Sale new [Re: coopman]
      #1307412 - 12/16/06 11:11 PM

Some guys like to roll the dice.

Some guys like to bet on the dogs or the horses.

Some guys like to play cards.

Some guys prefer the roulette wheel.

Some guys try their luck at the lottery.

And some do alot of hoping and praying when ordering inexpensive Chinese binoculars.

I received my "third" Barska 30x80 X-Trail binocular today, and it finally turned out to be a good one.

I think I'll let some "other" lucky person do it the next time around!

--------------------
Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Orion 12x63mm Mini Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 20x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/JAPAN
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP

Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth


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photonovore
Moonatic
*****

Reged: 12/24/04
Posts: 2472
Loc: tacoma wa
Re: Zhumell 20x80s on Sale new [Re: BillC]
      #1307612 - 12/17/06 03:42 AM

The first pair of 20x80 barska's i ordered arrived collimated to my satisfation (no crosseyes, no headaches). They have given me many hours thusfar of enjoyment under the nightsky and are holding up just fine. The way i treat them (they see my non-butter fingered hands, my lap and a fitted foam box) i see no physical reason why they would not endure for the rest of my life. I didn't even pay 100$ for them new and i remain unconvinced that they do not deliver 80-90% of what a 20x80 can be expected to deliver vis a vis performance at any price.

I also have a pair of 90% plastic 'throwaway' Jason 7x50 binoculars made in 1984 that spent the first 15 years of their life in an open box, soaking up the fresh salt air in the pilothouse of a small workboat; the next few years bouncing around their glued prisms behind the seat in a pickup. Now they are in the kitchen and i use them almost daily to watch the birds in the backyard out the window. They haven't had lens caps for years; they get cleaned with a kitchen rag. They are still collimated just fine--no cross eyes, no headaches, which is all i happen to care about as far as collimation goes in a binocular. The birds look lovely (my kitchen window is probably the poorest part of that little optical train!) I guess i just don't take 7, 10 and 20 power optical instruments all *that* seriously--and i really doubt one must in order to fully enjoy using them.

I just don't buy this "Fujinon or foolish" sort of attitude, sorry.

Telescopes are a different matter for me, but then one can actually see their diffraction limit once in awhile, so 1/4wave optical quality actually gets used occassionally.

This is why i consider Zeiss, Leica, Savorski, etc, in the same consumer catagory as Gucci, Jimmy Choo and Rolex... you get that last 10-15% of ultimate quality for 1000% extra on the price. Such purchases can be considered a 'wise choice' only for those who can afford to absorb such a lopsided cost benefit ratio--or who care about an extra couple tenths limiting magnitude (I don't) or indestructability (i don't). I'd get in as much hot water for spending 700$ on a pair of binoculars as i would spending 700$ on a set of Demeyere pots & pans. This kind of hot water is called unnecessary extravagance where i live and it's no more 'anti-elitist' than living within one's means is.

--------------------
Mardi




4" achromat, ETX-70.
Whitepeak Lunar Observatory Website


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KennyJ

*****

Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10146
Loc: Lancashire UK
Re: Zhumell 20x80s on Sale new [Re: photonovore]
      #1307659 - 12/17/06 05:34 AM

< I also have a pair of 90% plastic 'throwaway' Jason 7x50 binoculars made in 1984 that spent the first 15 years of their life in an open box, soaking up the fresh salt air in the pilothouse of a small workboat; the next few years bouncing around their glued prisms behind the seat in a pickup. Now they are in the kitchen and i use them almost daily to watch the birds in the backyard out the window. They haven't had lens caps for years; they get cleaned with a kitchen rag. >

Mardi ,

I have to agree that if binoculars are going to be treated and used in such a way , CHEAP is probably the most prudent way to go ! :-)

Quite apart from leaving them in open boxes on boats without lens caps , if I restricted MY binocular viewing to looking through WINDOWS , I doubt if there would be any Nikon , Swarovski and Zeiss binoculars in our household , either !

Quoting " percentages " when attempting to compare optical and mechanical quality is always " subjective " at best , but based on my own experiences , I've yet to look through ANY binoculars costing TEN TIMES LESS than my Nikon SEs or Zeiss BGATs which come even close to being 80% as good .

Regards ,

Kenny

--------------------
If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton





Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera


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firestar
Born to be Mild
****

Reged: 10/18/06
Posts: 3942
Loc: Cleveland Ohio USA
Re: Zhumell 20x80s on Sale new [Re: KennyJ]
      #1307706 - 12/17/06 07:10 AM

I'm only using the binoculars as a locating tool and as a portable scope in my vehicle.
My neighborhood isnt the safest place to leave optics around.
I live near the poorest city in the nation.
I dont want to spend alot of time holding a pair of binoculars,up to the sky anyway.
If I was going to spend $600-$1500 on optics it sure would have some real aperture to it.


--------------------
Eastlake Ohio

Lots of cheap Asian glass
Antares 12" Dob,Antares 8" Dob
Meade 8" SCT, Celestron C8 SCT
Zhumell 152 mm F8,Antares 127 mm f9.4
Orion short tube 90 F5.6,Celestron 80 ED F7.5
Imaging Source DMK 21AU04 ccd camera
Stellarvue bv3's with 32,26,23,21,9 mm pairs
Olivon 42,35,28mm,siebert 21,12.5,7mm,GSO superview 20mm,Meade swa 13.8mm,Hyperion 13mm


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Mike Rapchak
sage


Reged: 11/17/06
Posts: 450
Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: Zhumell 20x80s on Sale new [Re: Joad]
      #1308284 - 12/17/06 03:06 PM

Joad,

Thank you very much for your reply. You bring up some very interesting points in regards to quality level of binos re dealers.

I've decided that, when funds allow, I'm going to purchase a pair of the Obie BT100s. So far I've heard/read nothing but good reports on them.

My question is, can one order a pair of binos directly from Oberwerk or Garrett or must they be purchased from a dealer (like, say, Binoculars.com)? I've read aout how thorough OO and GO are with checking each pair prior to shipping and thought that one could perhaps order form them directly (the advantage to this would be elimination of at least some of the shipping process, lowering the chance of the binos being damaged/knocked out of alignment/collimation en route).

Mike Rapchak Jr.


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SaberScorpX
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 4121
Loc: illinois, usa
Re: Zhumell 20x80s on Sale new [Re: photonovore]
      #1308327 - 12/17/06 03:26 PM

re: The...20x80 barska's i ordered arrived collimated to my satisfation. They have given me many hours thusfar of enjoyment under the nightsky and are holding up just fine...I remain unconvinced that they do not deliver 80-90% of what a 20x80 can be expected to deliver vis a vis performance at any price...

Ditto Mardi's comments with my Barska 30s.

And glad they got it right for you, Stan.


Saber Does The Stars at:
http://www.astronomyblogs.com/member/saberscorpx/


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