neoweb
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/10/06
Posts: 1482
Loc: UK
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Would the rings be visible through 20 x 90mm binoculars? Or would you just get a small elongated-like shape?
Or how about through 25 x 100mm?
Thanks as always.
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Saturn-like: desktop image
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14686
Loc: Hurricane Alley
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The rings are BARELY resolvable in a 25x100.
I have never viewed through a 20x binocular, so I can't help there. But I would think not, it may look elongated like an american football.
Standard fixed-power binoculars do not perform well on planets, in my experience. Mars, Saturn, and Venus are definitely visible with some measure of detail, depending on conditions and closeness of planetary approach, but for the most part they are underwhelming. Jupiter's equatorial belts can be seen as two faint pink stripes on a small milky white disc. All of the other planets are stellar.
Clear dark skies...
MikeG
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Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!
Edited by Glassthrower (12/21/06 07:58 PM)
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Joad
Wordsmith
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 11919
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I could make out the rings with 40X100 binoculars. With Saturn coming back, I'll have a go at 25X100 soon. I think it is possible to do so with the instruments you name. Maybe EdZ will provide the precise arc minute/second resolution data for us to make sure.
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Rick
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/12/05
Posts: 2574
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
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The Canon 15x50 IS (barely), Fuji 16x70 FMT (yes), and Nikon 18x70 (easy) can all resolve them. You will need good seeing though.
-Rick
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www.japanastro.com
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14686
Loc: Hurricane Alley
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Rick,
When you say resolve, does this mean it is possible to see them as distinctly ring-like with the black space visible between the rings and the planetary disc? In my 15x70 Skymaster, Saturn's rings are technically visible, but they are difficult to see as more than bulges on each side of a very very tiny disc. Of course, the Celestron Skymaster has nowhere near the resolution capabilities of any of the fine binoculars you mention. Perhaps I was missing out. At any rate, the image scale at such small magnifications is tiny to say the least.
Clear dark skies...
MikeG
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Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!
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Phillip Creed
Idiot Seeking Village
Reged: 07/25/06
Posts: 1033
Loc: NE Ohio
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The last time I was out under dark skies I did get a chance to look at Saturn in my 25x100s. I could cleanly separate the rings from the planet, but that was about it. A binoscope would do a much better job.
I did get a chance to look through 20x100 Apogees, and the rings were distinctly separated from the planet, but only in twilight.
Clear Skies,
Phil
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"Why suffer from insanity when you can revel in it?"
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AJTony
sage
Reged: 04/17/04
Posts: 379
Loc: Hamilton Square, NJ
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With my 15 X 50 IS, Saturn has "ears." With my Obies 25 X 100, a nice clean separation of the rings from the planet. With my Apogee 25 X 100, I agree with Phil, only separates during the twilight hours.
AJ
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Oberwerk BT100-45 Binos
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Rick
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/12/05
Posts: 2574
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
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Mike,
In my 25x80 Steiners the rings would clearly seperate so I am amazed you cannot do it at 25x100. I recall EdZ said he could do it in the Fuji 16x70 last year and sure enough with good seeing, I could too. The Canon 15x50IS is really difficult, and in fact may be my imagination. Given how easy it is in the Nikon 18x70 I would guess just about any 20x80 could do it though.
But really, other than the novelty factor, using binos to look at planets is a waste of effort, don't you think?
-Rick
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www.japanastro.com
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14686
Loc: Hurricane Alley
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Hi Rick,
In my 25x100 binocular I could cleanly seperate the rings from the disc, but the image scale was so tiny that I would term the view "barely resolvable". If a complete newbie or layperson were to look at the view, it would not be immediately recognizable as Saturn. It would take some attention on their part, depending on their aptitude for astronomy. Whereas as higher magnifications, say 100x or more, Saturn is clearly Saturn with no ambiguity.
Given this result, I found it somewhat surprising that the rings could be seperated in a 15x, 16x or 18x binocular. But then again, like I said, the Canon, Fujinon and Nikon have far superior optics to the Skymaster line. I know in my 15x70 Skymaster, I would not term the view of the rings as resolved or seperated. But I am just playing with semantics here and not trying to be difficult or contrary. 
And I would agree, planetary viewing in the common visual sense is mostly a novelty with binoculars. But it does make a nice added bonus when out viewing nebulae and clusters, to swing the binos around and view Jupiter or Saturn. During Mars' last close approach, I was able to see a surprisingly-large disc through the 25x100 binos and I could almost swear I saw some brightening at the pole which was turned towards Earth at that time. I was quite surprised and pleased. But it wasn't enough of a thrill to keep me glued exclusively to binoculars....
Hmmm.....now I think back to all those times you advised me to get a telescope......once again, a more experienced member of the group was right. I wish I had a dollar for every time that has happened! 
Clear dark skies...
MikeG
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Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!
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edwincjones
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 4423
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In my 20x100s, Saturn is just a football.
Venus, when a cresent, is beautiful in binoculars.
edj
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n w arkansas
Binocular, Solar, General Amateur Astronomy
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12581
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Just this morning I was looking at Saturn with 16x70s. I could just barely see the separation of the rings at both ansae.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Kimmo Absetz
member
Reged: 10/12/05
Posts: 99
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With magnifications as low as 15-20x, assuming sufficiently good seeing and binoculars that are at least decent in quality (no gross flaws), it would be the visual aquity of the viewers' eyes that would be most important determinant of the visibility of the rings.
Kimmo
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SaberScorpX
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 4121
Loc: illinois, usa
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I've seen the gaps thru 15s at favorable inclinations.
Not what I'd call a crisp image, tho.
At 25x I start looking (in vain) for Cassini's.
Oohs and Ahhs from the public thru 30s.
Saber Does The Stars at:
http://www.astronomyblogs.com/member/saberscorpx/
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JHollJr
sage
Reged: 06/10/06
Posts: 204
Loc: Quantico, Virginia
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In my 10x50 Leicas I can see a hint of oblateness which allows me to discern the orientation of the rings, but I certainly cannot see the rings themselves.
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Justin
Northern Virginia
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777Guy
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/11/03
Posts: 574
Loc: 48'29N 122'37W
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My Miyauchi 30X77 can resolve the rings. The image is tiny compared to a telescopic view at 50x or more but with a little patience you can make out the Cassini division.
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14686
Loc: Hurricane Alley
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Hi Jim,
When you say "Cassini Division", I want to make sure we are talking about the same thing - in my limited experience, the Cassini division is almost impossible to discern at magnifications less than 80x. Difficult at ~100x depending on conditions. But then again, take this with a liberal application of table-salt, because I am pretty green with scopes and planetary observing (being a cluster/DSO man at heart) ....
Regards and clear skies,
MikeG
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Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12581
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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What’s your Lowest power to see Cassini division?
And there were a number of people that did much better than I did. have a read in the thread above.
edz
my observations
Friday Dec 12. Sat. Dec 13, 2003
With the TV85, the best seemed to top out at 60x. The 5” SCT was by far the brightest view. The Stellervue seems to have a problem getting the image focused precise.
Stellarvue AT1010 80x – sharper preceeding ansae, blurred on following
Televue 85mm/600mm Apo– 67x Cassini 30% each end, color on disk, 3 moons lined up. At 60x – Cassini not quite around to disk, 3 moons
Celestron G5 125mm SCT 68x very clearly seen 50% around, color in equatorial band. 55x very sharp rings edge, but no Cassini seen.
For those of you who like to read about and learn about optical theaory, here's an article for you. Enjoy.
What Does It Take To See Width In The Cassini Division?
BTW, the two links above refer to two very different things. The first link is minimum magnification for detection. The article is about resolution of true width of Cassini.
Don't get your hopes up for Encke. It's not gonna happen with ANY binoculars.
Seeing Encke!
Seeing Encke! Links to some great photos and other Notable Articles
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Sergio E
member
Reged: 06/10/06
Posts: 67
Loc: Italy
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In my Miyauchi Saturn II at 22x71 the rings are clearly showed, separed from the disk.
At 40x better.
At 115x I need good seeing for the Cassini division.
Good skys Sergio
Edited by Sergio E (12/22/06 02:41 PM)
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yagon
sage
Reged: 01/23/06
Posts: 204
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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Quote:
And I would agree, planetary viewing in the common visual sense is mostly a novelty with binoculars.
I like to show non-astronomers Saturn and Jupiter. In my experience, nothing in astronomy has more impact than one's first view of Saturn. To be able to do that via a pair of easy to transport/setup 25x or 30x binos is a great feeling.
One can also use the same bino's for wonderful observing of the moon. Try the Takahashi 22x60, Steiner 25x80, or a Chinese 30x90 (eg x-trail).
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hallelujah
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1660
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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The Barska X-Trail is a 30x80mm binocular, not 90mm. 
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