neoweb
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/10/06
Posts: 1482
Loc: UK
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Would the rings be visible through 20 x 90mm binoculars? Or would you just get a small elongated-like shape?
Or how about through 25 x 100mm?
Thanks as always.
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Celestron StarHopper 8" f/6 Dob
38mm Burgess 2" SWA | 30mm Ultima | 20mm Omni
17mm Hyperion | 12.5mm Baader Ortho
8mm TV Plossl | 6mm TMB/BO Planetary
Orion Shorty Plus barlow
15 X 70mm Skymasters
Saturn-like: desktop image
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14686
Loc: Hurricane Alley
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The rings are BARELY resolvable in a 25x100.
I have never viewed through a 20x binocular, so I can't help there. But I would think not, it may look elongated like an american football.
Standard fixed-power binoculars do not perform well on planets, in my experience. Mars, Saturn, and Venus are definitely visible with some measure of detail, depending on conditions and closeness of planetary approach, but for the most part they are underwhelming. Jupiter's equatorial belts can be seen as two faint pink stripes on a small milky white disc. All of the other planets are stellar.
Clear dark skies...
MikeG
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Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!
Edited by Glassthrower (12/21/06 07:58 PM)
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Joad
Wordsmith
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 11919
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I could make out the rings with 40X100 binoculars. With Saturn coming back, I'll have a go at 25X100 soon. I think it is possible to do so with the instruments you name. Maybe EdZ will provide the precise arc minute/second resolution data for us to make sure.
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Rick
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/12/05
Posts: 2574
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
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The Canon 15x50 IS (barely), Fuji 16x70 FMT (yes), and Nikon 18x70 (easy) can all resolve them. You will need good seeing though.
-Rick
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www.japanastro.com
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14686
Loc: Hurricane Alley
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Rick,
When you say resolve, does this mean it is possible to see them as distinctly ring-like with the black space visible between the rings and the planetary disc? In my 15x70 Skymaster, Saturn's rings are technically visible, but they are difficult to see as more than bulges on each side of a very very tiny disc. Of course, the Celestron Skymaster has nowhere near the resolution capabilities of any of the fine binoculars you mention. Perhaps I was missing out. At any rate, the image scale at such small magnifications is tiny to say the least.
Clear dark skies...
MikeG
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Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!
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Phillip Creed
Idiot Seeking Village
Reged: 07/25/06
Posts: 1033
Loc: NE Ohio
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The last time I was out under dark skies I did get a chance to look at Saturn in my 25x100s. I could cleanly separate the rings from the planet, but that was about it. A binoscope would do a much better job.
I did get a chance to look through 20x100 Apogees, and the rings were distinctly separated from the planet, but only in twilight.
Clear Skies,
Phil
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"Why suffer from insanity when you can revel in it?"
Wilderness Center Astronomy Club member since 1995
ICQ Comet Observer Code: CRE01
*****
16" f/4.5 Truss Dobsonian (FOR SALE!!)
Orion 120mm ST Refractor
23mm Axiom LX
13mm Nagler Type 6
9mm Nagler Type 6
1.75X Siebert Barlow
*****
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AJTony
sage
Reged: 04/17/04
Posts: 379
Loc: Hamilton Square, NJ
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With my 15 X 50 IS, Saturn has "ears." With my Obies 25 X 100, a nice clean separation of the rings from the planet. With my Apogee 25 X 100, I agree with Phil, only separates during the twilight hours.
AJ
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Oberwerk BT100-45 Binos
Apogee 25 X 100 Binos
Canon 15 X 50 IS Binos
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Rick
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/12/05
Posts: 2574
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
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Mike,
In my 25x80 Steiners the rings would clearly seperate so I am amazed you cannot do it at 25x100. I recall EdZ said he could do it in the Fuji 16x70 last year and sure enough with good seeing, I could too. The Canon 15x50IS is really difficult, and in fact may be my imagination. Given how easy it is in the Nikon 18x70 I would guess just about any 20x80 could do it though.
But really, other than the novelty factor, using binos to look at planets is a waste of effort, don't you think?
-Rick
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www.japanastro.com
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14686
Loc: Hurricane Alley
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Hi Rick,
In my 25x100 binocular I could cleanly seperate the rings from the disc, but the image scale was so tiny that I would term the view "barely resolvable". If a complete newbie or layperson were to look at the view, it would not be immediately recognizable as Saturn. It would take some attention on their part, depending on their aptitude for astronomy. Whereas as higher magnifications, say 100x or more, Saturn is clearly Saturn with no ambiguity.
Given this result, I found it somewhat surprising that the rings could be seperated in a 15x, 16x or 18x binocular. But then again, like I said, the Canon, Fujinon and Nikon have far superior optics to the Skymaster line. I know in my 15x70 Skymaster, I would not term the view of the rings as resolved or seperated. But I am just playing with semantics here and not trying to be difficult or contrary. 
And I would agree, planetary viewing in the common visual sense is mostly a novelty with binoculars. But it does make a nice added bonus when out viewing nebulae and clusters, to swing the binos around and view Jupiter or Saturn. During Mars' last close approach, I was able to see a surprisingly-large disc through the 25x100 binos and I could almost swear I saw some brightening at the pole which was turned towards Earth at that time. I was quite surprised and pleased. But it wasn't enough of a thrill to keep me glued exclusively to binoculars....
Hmmm.....now I think back to all those times you advised me to get a telescope......once again, a more experienced member of the group was right. I wish I had a dollar for every time that has happened! 
Clear dark skies...
MikeG
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Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!
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edwincjones
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 4423
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In my 20x100s, Saturn is just a football.
Venus, when a cresent, is beautiful in binoculars.
edj
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n w arkansas
Binocular, Solar, General Amateur Astronomy
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12581
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Just this morning I was looking at Saturn with 16x70s. I could just barely see the separation of the rings at both ansae.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Kimmo Absetz
member
Reged: 10/12/05
Posts: 99
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With magnifications as low as 15-20x, assuming sufficiently good seeing and binoculars that are at least decent in quality (no gross flaws), it would be the visual aquity of the viewers' eyes that would be most important determinant of the visibility of the rings.
Kimmo
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SaberScorpX
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 4121
Loc: illinois, usa
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I've seen the gaps thru 15s at favorable inclinations.
Not what I'd call a crisp image, tho.
At 25x I start looking (in vain) for Cassini's.
Oohs and Ahhs from the public thru 30s.
Saber Does The Stars at:
http://www.astronomyblogs.com/member/saberscorpx/
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JHollJr
sage
Reged: 06/10/06
Posts: 204
Loc: Quantico, Virginia
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In my 10x50 Leicas I can see a hint of oblateness which allows me to discern the orientation of the rings, but I certainly cannot see the rings themselves.
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Justin
Northern Virginia
Celestron Nexstar 8i SE
Questar 3.5 purchased 1980
Leica Ultravid 10x50's
Oberwerk 20x80 Ultra Lights
UA UniMount Light Deluxe
Horrible Eyes
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777Guy
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/11/03
Posts: 574
Loc: 48'29N 122'37W
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My Miyauchi 30X77 can resolve the rings. The image is tiny compared to a telescopic view at 50x or more but with a little patience you can make out the Cassini division.
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14686
Loc: Hurricane Alley
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Hi Jim,
When you say "Cassini Division", I want to make sure we are talking about the same thing - in my limited experience, the Cassini division is almost impossible to discern at magnifications less than 80x. Difficult at ~100x depending on conditions. But then again, take this with a liberal application of table-salt, because I am pretty green with scopes and planetary observing (being a cluster/DSO man at heart) ....
Regards and clear skies,
MikeG
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Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12581
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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What’s your Lowest power to see Cassini division?
And there were a number of people that did much better than I did. have a read in the thread above.
edz
my observations
Friday Dec 12. Sat. Dec 13, 2003
With the TV85, the best seemed to top out at 60x. The 5” SCT was by far the brightest view. The Stellervue seems to have a problem getting the image focused precise.
Stellarvue AT1010 80x – sharper preceeding ansae, blurred on following
Televue 85mm/600mm Apo– 67x Cassini 30% each end, color on disk, 3 moons lined up. At 60x – Cassini not quite around to disk, 3 moons
Celestron G5 125mm SCT 68x very clearly seen 50% around, color in equatorial band. 55x very sharp rings edge, but no Cassini seen.
For those of you who like to read about and learn about optical theaory, here's an article for you. Enjoy.
What Does It Take To See Width In The Cassini Division?
BTW, the two links above refer to two very different things. The first link is minimum magnification for detection. The article is about resolution of true width of Cassini.
Don't get your hopes up for Encke. It's not gonna happen with ANY binoculars.
Seeing Encke!
Seeing Encke! Links to some great photos and other Notable Articles
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Sergio E
member
Reged: 06/10/06
Posts: 67
Loc: Italy
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In my Miyauchi Saturn II at 22x71 the rings are clearly showed, separed from the disk.
At 40x better.
At 115x I need good seeing for the Cassini division.
Good skys Sergio
Edited by Sergio E (12/22/06 02:41 PM)
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yagon
sage
Reged: 01/23/06
Posts: 204
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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Quote:
And I would agree, planetary viewing in the common visual sense is mostly a novelty with binoculars.
I like to show non-astronomers Saturn and Jupiter. In my experience, nothing in astronomy has more impact than one's first view of Saturn. To be able to do that via a pair of easy to transport/setup 25x or 30x binos is a great feeling.
One can also use the same bino's for wonderful observing of the moon. Try the Takahashi 22x60, Steiner 25x80, or a Chinese 30x90 (eg x-trail).
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hallelujah
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1660
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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The Barska X-Trail is a 30x80mm binocular, not 90mm. 
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Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Orion 12x63mm Mini Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 20x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/JAPAN
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP
Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10146
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Saturn is such a special visual jewel in the night sky that almost every time it is up and the sky is clear , I take at least a quick peak at it .
For years , I used to do this through a f8 50mm " toy refractor " with an eyepiece taken out of a 10 x 50 binocular , and the result was something like a 33 x 50 monoscope , which resolved the rings surprisingly clearly , given the quality of the components making up the contraption .
But even at 33x , the whole beautiful image IS rather tiny .
More recently , I've looked at Saturn through my Zeiss 85mm diascope using the Zeiss 20 - 60x zoom lens at various settings .
My most recent prescription glasses have improved my visual acuity slightly , but I still struggle to see the separation of the rings at 20x .
That said , although not BAD , star testing I've tried to carry out would indicate that perhaps my specimen of Zeiss Diascope , whilst far from the WORST , is not as outstanding as one specimen tested from about four , if I remember correctly , reported by Henry Link .
One interesting and useful apsect of having a zoom lens of this type is the ability it provides to play around with different magnifications to give an idea of what and what cannot be seen at the various magnifications , through a 85mm single objective lens .
For such purposes , I'm sure a good quality , dedicated ASTRO scope , something like a TV 85 , with TV zoom ep , would be better suited .
But anyway , through what I HAVE at my disposal , I would say that MORE OFTEN THAN NOT , I need the zoom set at around 30x before I can DEFINITELY see the separation of the rings from the sphere .
40x and above is less stressful on the eyes .
Clear skies , Kenny
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If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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refractory
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/05/05
Posts: 1016
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I can see the rings clearly separated in my Comet King (20x80) AND Titan when conditions are good. Once I even saw the Cassini spacecraft, but that was on the WWW. ;-)
Jess Tauber
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hallelujah
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1660
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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Stephen,
I got your message but for some reason it is not posting.
No, I haven't looked at Saturn thru the 30x80's.
I did see it in the 20x80's just before the 30's arrived.
We just had two to three feet of snow, and supposedly more is on the way. Been busy digging out. Took the better part of the day shoveling, and the "old" body needs a day to recuperate.
Right now I don't feel like dragging the tripod, or the tired body, out in the drifts. Maybe in a week or so.
Will keep in touch. 
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Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II FMC/WP/FP
Orion 12x63mm Mini Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/JAPAN
Orion 20x70mm Little Giant II FMC/JAPAN
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/JAPAN
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP
Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth
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Tad S.
super member
Reged: 08/28/06
Posts: 140
Loc: SW Virginia
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For me, through 12x50s, Saturn looks like a kernel of short grain rice. Through 20x80s, I can start to see some dark space between the rings and the planet, but only when seeing is decent and the planet is well off the horizon. Under most conditions, I can usually make out a moon or few, too. --Tad
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Orion XT8i, Vixen ED80Sf, Oberwerk BT-80/45
20x80 Oberwerk Std., 12x50 Nikon AE,
10x42 Celestron Regal LX, 8x40 Pentax PCF WP
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Rick M
member
Reged: 01/14/05
Posts: 70
Loc: Santa Clarita, CA
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I can clearly distinguish the rings in my Tak 22x60s. I was also able to see them one night with my Fujinon 16x70s but that only happened once. In both cases Saturn was very small.
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Rick M
Leica 7x42 BA
Leica 8x20 BCA
Leica 10x30 BA
Pentax PCF III 7x50
William Optics 7x50ED
Fujinon 10x70
Miyauchi NBA-71 Saturn II
Garrett Optical 20x110 Signature
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14686
Loc: Hurricane Alley
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Quote:
I can clearly distinguish the rings in my Tak 22x60s. I was also able to see them one night with my Fujinon 16x70s but that only happened once. In both cases Saturn was very small.
I have come to the reluctant conclusion that the only astro binocular I would ever truly be HAPPY with (optically speaking) would be the Takahashi 22x60 or the Nikon 18x70. I don't mind a little spherical aberration in the outer field (as long as coma doesn't manifest noticeably along with it), so I think the 18x70 would suit me. As for the Tak, it's a legend. Two Takahashi short-tube refractors/spotters in a small binocular package, .... ok, I better stop before I begin to pine ...! 
Clear dark skies...(nothing but clouds here for 3 days straight - day and night)
MikeG
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Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & 35 different falls and types!
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m2k
member
Reged: 12/10/06
Posts: 33
Loc: Coastal Massachusetts, USA
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I'm new to the hobby but have had a life-long interest. The other morning I awoke about 4 and decided to go down to the beach with my newly-acquired 16x70 Fuji's. I don't have a mount or sky-window, and they are difficult to hand-hold. So I thought I might lay in the sand & try a steadier hold. I was surprised at the amount of ambient light there from the streetlight at the end of Beach St, and all the lights from the private club next property over. As if that wasn't bad enough, there was sort of a ground level mist over the ocean. Aside from a very few brighter stars visible, there wasn't going to be much point to it all. Looked like a wasted trip. Then I decided to lay on one of the benches there and look anyway. One unusually bright object caught my eye with it's unusual yellow color and elongated shape. Yeah, I know how this sounds, but for a minute there, I thought I had spotted a comet. It is difficult to hand-hold 16x binoculars, and hard to tell exactly what the heck I was looking at. But the color and shape said maybe it could be Saturn. I rushed back home, took the telescope out of the garage and fumbled around trying to make an equatorial mount into an alt-az in the dark. Newbie, remember? I finally pointed the correct leg in the general direction of Polaris and turned my scope into a freakish-looking contraption with counterweights and slow-mo knobs sticking out at unusual angles! I nearly earned a trip to the chiropracter craning my neck to see through the little finder on the mn-56 mak-newt. And there it was! At 45x, I had my first (OK, this being the binocular forum, after all)
make that my second view of Saturn. What an amazing sight. By now it's 545am and I'm due at work at 630, 20 miles away, so that was it.
Sorry for the length of this post, but I have been dying to tell this story since the other morning. For me, the binocular was a means to find something I have never seen before and wasn't really looking for in the pre-dawn. I would really like to see steadier with the big Fuji's and am drawn to the Sky Window. Any thoughts on what I might expect with one of these?
Thanks for reading this and Happy Holidays.
Mike.
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Celestron C-9.25
Takahashi FS-102
TV-76
G-11
ASGT
Fujinon 7X50 FMTR-SX Polaris
Fujinon 16X70 FMT-SX Polaris
Homemade SkyWindow (Work in progress)
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10146
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Mike ,
Thanks for that unusual report from the beach !
It's not an easy or obvious post to respond to , but just wanted you to realise that I'm sure many will enjoy reading it , even if they don't reply specifically to it .
There have already been quite a few posts to this thread above which I feel may answer PART of your parting question , but the sky window itself , as an alternative to a conventional mounting system , seems to have more detractors than admirers .
The two most commonly stated reasons for this is the unfamiliarity and perhaps awkwardness of a REVERSED image , and the potential problem with dew .
It's always a pleasure to hear from enthusiastic new members , so please do keep in touch ,
Regards , Kenny
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If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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Joad
Wordsmith
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 11919
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Yes, welcome to Binoculars, m2k. Your story |
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