ssemone
member
Reged: 04/18/06
Posts: 12
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So this is one of those lists of requirements that is similar to those I get in my line of work (software development / business systems analysis) in which I give a little half smile and sigh knowing in my heart of hearts that something will have to give... read on and you'll see why...
A bit about myself...
Enjoy birding (have a pair of Swift 10x42's that I love!), but, of course would love more reach.
Have done some digiscoping but need more glass to do so.
Have done a bit of astro deep sky with the Swift's but would love more reach for trips to the lake
Love the benefits of stereo / bino-viewing
Rugged and waterproof/fogproof = good.
Appreciate portability (although understand I'll likely mount my next bino/scope on an already owned Bogen 3021b-pro).
So with all that being said I would love to have something with these requirements (in no particular order)
Ruggedized (waterproof and fogproof too) like a spotting scope.
Decent handling of CA. I'm not a purist in this respect, esp since I'd hate to blow the bank. :P
65mm (or greater) objective
45 degree viewing comfort (or maybe just a better (gimbal?) mount) so I can easily share the view.
Bino-viewing
Accepts 1.25" eyepieces / alternatively has eyepieces with
18mm+ of eye relief (for digiscoping)
Less than eight pounds
Interestingly i can't find anyone that makes such a beast (haha!).
That being said there are some that come close...
There is one set of 45 degree binocs that I can find that meet many of the requirments (although again, don't read as if they are nitrogen purged / fogproof / waterproof .. nor should they be really, they aren't designed to be). The Miyauchi 22x60's. Nice and compact, well reviewed...onward..
I could go the astro route and get any number of the 66mm/80mm refractors with a set of binoviewers (stellarvue, others..). That meets many many of the requirements except (I'm supposing) the need for waterproof/fogproof/ruggedized. But come on, how many times will I be out birding in the rain...hard to say, really, but total count on that to date is a big fat zero, but at the very least I'd want something rugged for hiking and setups out in the woods.
As a sort of side to that I could go the 45 degree spotting scope route (e.g. Pentax PF-80ED which is waterproof, ruggedized). There's a thread at the birdforum of a gentleman trying to get a set of binoviewers to work with the PF-100ED's but he was having difficulty getting focus past 30m. That thread is here: http://birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=57013
The last thing I found is these rather unusual monsters from Meade: 32x110 spotting scope with binoviewers. I can't find any details about them on the Meade site (discontinued perhaps?). The are reported to be from Bresser although I can't find any info about them at the meade.de site either. Hmm....
http://www.binoculars.com/products/meade-32x110-astro-spotting-scope-with-binoviewer-49864.html
Anyway, I know that some of this might be a touch off-topic for a pure binoculars forum, but I didn't want to do a bunch of cross-posting to other forums (binoviewer, refractors) until I'd gotten some feedback from the fine folks here!
Cheers,
-Sean
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10146
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Sean ,
Having read that birdforum thread you linked to , I noticed the original poster said he'd ordered a 1.25 x barlow from Harry Siebert , which was claimed to " bring ANY eyepiece to focus " -- but that was 7 months ago , and I could see no post confirming the arrival of the barlow , or it's subsequent effectiveness .
What is it about the 45 degree 32 x 110 " astro " spotting scope that does NOT meet your requirements ?
Regards , Kenny
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If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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ssemone
member
Reged: 04/18/06
Posts: 12
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Hey Kenny, Yeah, probably not a good sign that he didn't post after having ordered the barlow. I private messaged him but didn't hear anything back. 
Yeah those 32x110's look pretty neat. I just can't seem to find much info about them (portability/waterproofing/etc..). Be nice to see a spec sheet (I guess I could email meade.de (duh!).). All I can find online is this...
# Focal Length 670mm
# Aluminum Case
# 2 Eyepieces - ED 21mm
# Any 1.25 Inch Eyepieces can be up to 31.7mm
# Tripod Mount
# 360 Degree Rotating Body
A 670mm focal length translates to 26" (which is likely just the OTA). So a bit less portable then I'd like. Or at least not as portable as a PF-80ED with a binoviewer (which would be about six inches less -- correspondingly less aperture but the ED lens might make up for some of that). Then again 110mm is a ton of objective! 
When it boils down to it any of these aren't particularly bad solutions. I suppose were I made of money I'd just buy all three (astro-binos / spotting scope / telescope with binoviewers). In the world of photopgraphy they call that "LBA" (lens buying addiction, I believe). Is there is similar term in the astro world?
Cheers,
Sean
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10146
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Sean ,
You can't directly relate FOCAL length to PHYSICAL length .
My STRAIGHT THROUGH Zeiss 85mm Diascope has a focal length of 504mm , but only measures 13.5 inches long .
Regards , Kenny
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If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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ssemone
member
Reged: 04/18/06
Posts: 12
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Interesting, is that "shortened" OTA due to how the light path travels via various prisms?
-S
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camvan
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/02/05
Posts: 2086
Loc: British Columbia
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what about the smaller Mak-Cas spotting scopes? you get some decent aperture on a short tube with long focal length...
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Cameron
"Aperture can only be replaced by even more aperture. Dark transparent skies cannot be replaced by anything else." - Stathis Kafalis
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ssemone
member
Reged: 04/18/06
Posts: 12
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Hey Camvan, The C90Mak had made my list, although I was concerned about a couple things with that particular model.
One was some general concerns about fit and finish and quality. Some of which appeared related to the diagonal and the focuser. It looked unlikely that I'd be able to replace the screw-on-type diagonal that comes with it (in order to upgrade or use binoviewers with correct images).
It also looked like I might have a hard time getting less than 30x mag. I'd like to be able to get nice wide field 20 or 25x and finding a 50mm 1.25" eyepiece that doesn't vignetted seemed challenging.
The last was overall contrast and doughnut bokeh when digiscoping. Haha, but how picky can I be for a $180 scope?!
Are there other Mak-types that are also ruggedized like the Celestron C90Mak that might fit the bill? (there I go asking a Mak question on a bino forum -- doh!). I did find this special order Burgess:
http://www.burgessoptical.com/Scopes/70mak.html
I must admit I do like its small form factor and the ability to flip viewing positions (particularly for digiscoping) with the C90Mak.
Cheers!
Sean
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ssemone
member
Reged: 04/18/06
Posts: 12
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Interestingly at this page:
http://www.kendrickastro.com/astro/spt_antares.html
There is both an antares 70mm Mak (which looks quite similar to the Lomo) as well as another 110mm Binoscope (this time with the Antares label instead of the Meade/Bresser).
-S
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12581
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
Interesting, is that "shortened" OTA due to how the light path travels via various prisms?
-S
that is correct. Actually if you read the specs listed for that Bresser (Meade) binoscope, they state is is a complete system, using 21mm eyepieces to get the stated magnification. So the stated focal length is all the way to the back end of the binoviewer. There are at least two "sets" of prisms in the light path. So my guess would be overall length may be 150-200mm shorter.
Again I'm guessing, but I would anticipate that binoviewer has a maximum clear aperture of only 20.5mm, what seems to be the standard for most $200 binoviewers on the market today. That would mean the longest focal length eyepiece you could use without vignette would be a about a standard 24mm plossl. A 26mm plossl would begin to vignette. A 30mm Celestron Ultima would vignette about 25%.
So, potentially, that Bresser Binoscope is limited to about a low end magnification of about 28x with a field of view of less than 2°. Yes, you can get lower power of 22x with a 30mm Ultima and the fov would be 2.3°, but the outer 20-25% of the fov would have vignette.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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sftonkin
sage
Reged: 02/25/04
Posts: 395
Loc: Kent, UK
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Quote:
Are there other Mak-types that are also ruggedized like the Celestron C90Mak that might fit the bill?
A friend has a Russian (i.e. built to withstand military treatment) 100mm f/10 (IIRC) Mak telephoto lens that he uses as a "second" scope (his "first" scope is a Questar) for travel/eclipse-chasing to places-where-things-are-roughly-handled. He has fixed a star diagonal to the back of it and it's generally a useful little beastie. I don't know if this sort of thing might meet your requirements.
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Stephen
Hindsight: The only truly diffraction-limited system
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Rich V.
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 01/02/05
Posts: 985
Loc: Carson Valley, Nevada USA
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I'm curious if there is any more info out there about the Soligor 90mm bino spotting scope we ran into a month or two ago on Cloudy Days; it looks like it may have some possibilities:
https://secure.soligor.com/fileadmin/images/pdf_deutsch_foto/Kataloge_englisch/Sol_29-32_engl_web.pdf --about 2/3 down on this page.
http://www.foto-video.at/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=12677&ad=none
Just wondering,
Rich V
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Binoculars:
33-150x100 Saturn III, 16x70FMT-SX, 10x50 PCF-V, 10x43 DCF-SP, 10x35 E2, 7x35 E, 8x30 E2, 7x26 Custom, 8x23AS Diplomat, 8x23 Travelite
Scopes:
C9.25, 6" f8 reflector, SV80S
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12581
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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the binoviewer arrangement on the Soligor would be the same as that noted above for the Bresser. Notice Soligor recommends eyepieces 12mm, 18mm, and 25mm. In this type of binoviewer, the 25mm eyepieces would just begin to vignette. One difference here is shorter focal length in the Soligor gives lower magnification than the Bresser and a wider maximum fov of about 2.3°.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Mark9473
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 2699
Loc: 51°N 4°E
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Rich, it would appear that the Soligor is the little brother of the Meade and Antares 110mm scopes linked to in previous posts in this thread.
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Mark
Leica 8x20; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63
WO Megrez II 80 FD + Baader 90° T2 Amici
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ChrisR
professor emeritus
Reged: 02/11/05
Posts: 518
Loc: Washington
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I would like a:
8.5x42 Swarovski EL, in good condition, collimated, with fast focus, that costs $100.00, isn't stolen, and isn't Grey market.
I think that may be to much to ask for though.
Peace,
Chris
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Journeyman Optical Technician
Amateur Astronomer.
All around good guy
Orion, StarMax 127
Canon, 12x36 IS
Minolta, 8x25 WR
Halco, 7x50
Nippon Kogaku, Micron 7x35
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ssemone
member
Reged: 04/18/06
Posts: 12
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That Soligor looks interesting as well. Not sure where I'd find it in the US.
That being said I like the idea of a Mak as a solution and the Lomo 70 / Orion 90 / 102 seem quite compact and potentially binoviewer "experiemental"-able [sic].
I also note this Parks Jovian 90, which is waterproof and nitrogen filled and rubberized.
http://www.scopecity.com/detail.cfm?ProductID=28
-S
Edited by ssemone (12/29/06 03:54 PM)
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camvan
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/02/05
Posts: 2086
Loc: British Columbia
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hey ssemone, you could look at the more expensive and well built models out there, but a lot would depend on your price range. check out www.stellaroptical.com for a lot of Mak scopes from Intes and it's offshoots when it broke apart. there are also some premium model's by bigger names like Vixen and such I believe as well. in fact, Vixen has an interesting lil one paired to a nifty goto EQ mount I think...the OTA may be of interest to you tho, rather than the mount 
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Cameron
"Aperture can only be replaced by even more aperture. Dark transparent skies cannot be replaced by anything else." - Stathis Kafalis
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12581
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
Hey Kenny, Yeah, probably not a good sign that he didn't post after having ordered the barlow. I private messaged him but didn't hear anything back.
The Seibert optical corrector (OCA) is widely accepted as providing the additional in-travel necessary for nearly all eyepieces to come to focus. It is designed to screw onto any binoviewer or diagonal that is threaded to accept filters.
an OCA acts somewhat differently than a barlow. The OCA is given the value of 1.25x and will multiply normal eyepiece magnification by that amount when used as designed in front of a binoviewer.
a barlow used in front of a binoviewer will always or almost always result in a much higher magnification factor than what the barlow is stated. The magnification of a barlow is determined by the spacing between the barlow elements and the eyepiece, the greater the space, the higher the resultant magnification. Since, at the very least, the binoviewer is now placed between them, the magnification increases dramatically.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12581
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
It also looked like I might have a hard time getting less than 30x mag. I'd like to be able to get nice wide field 20 or 25x and finding a 50mm 1.25" eyepiece that doesn't vignetted seemed challenging.
You should understand that your maxiumum wide field will be limited by the maximum field stop available in 1.25" eyepieces. That is the field stop reaches a maximum of about 27.4mm in about a 32mm eyepiece. While you can get a 40mm or 50mm? eyepiece that will give lower magnification, due to the restrictions of barrel diameter and wall thickness (1.25" eyepieces have outside diameter of 31.7mm and inside diamter of about 27.5mm), you cannot get eyepiecces with focal lengths longer than 32mm that will provide any wider field of view.
What you can gain by going from a 30mm or 32mm eyepiece to a 40mm eyepiece is a larger exit pupil, but not a wider field of view.
However, all of these maximum field stop 1.25" eyepieces will vignette in a binoviewer with a clear aperture of only about 20mm. That was explained earlier.
That Burgess scope you linked to when used with binoviewer (22mm CA), would give you a lowest magnification without vignette of about 36x with a maximum 1.4° Tfov.
Almost all other MakCass scopes will end up with higher magnification and narrower fov.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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ssemone
member
Reged: 04/18/06
Posts: 12
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Wow, so much information from all of you in just one day!
I should have posted long long ago. Thanks to Edz and KennyJ for helping to refine my list of wants. It now seems reasonable that the Mak's are out due to 1.25" eyepiece vignetting (I suppose using 2" eyepieces would help having a larger maximum field stop (I think I'm using that term correctly), but then I am in the world of finding 2x2" eyepieces in order to bino-view..cha-ching).
Thank you to Cameron for the great link to the Canadian Intes-Micro dealer. That M503 is a nice (nice!) looking scope. I particularly like what this reviewer had to say about its durability...quoting from:
http://cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=1468
"The M500 has a real solid look and feel, and it's truly built like a tank..typical Russian over-engineering. If you're out observing in the dark woods, and a hungry wolf tries to eat you, use this scope to save yourself. A gentle tap on the wolf's head with this scope, and he's down for the count. The M500 walks away from the encounter unscathed. "
Sadly wide-FOV bino-viewing terrestrial might not be its forte. Hmmm, I wonder if someone has thought about making a set of dual-tube Mak binoculars?! Those would be sweet (although funny looking and, I imagine, would still have some of the aforementioned issues unless purpose built).
Also I am with Chris, in that I'd like all of this in non-grey market, un-stolen and under $500.
Seriously, though, it looks as if I might need to make some compromises (like we didn't know that from the outset).
Were I to go a refractor route in no particular order...
- WO or SV66mm + BV (losing out on the ruggedized requirement and getting a bit low on aperture to drive a BV?).
- Various 80mm + BV's gets more mention wrt ruggedness and gives a bit more f/l yet maintains nice wide fields.
- A PF-80ED with a binoviewer (assuming it can be shown to come to focus).. okay this is closer to $1k than I'd like.
- Give up the 45 degree viewing comfort and go for something with a fixed mag like the Garret Optical (or similar) 20x80 or 25x100 (triplet waterproof). Would still get nice wide fields, have decent color correction, okay portablity, and eye relief. Lose a little bit on the short focus. Much less expensive than the other options.
Cheers,
-Sean
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12581
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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An 80mm F=500mm scope with a binoviewer would operate at close to F=600. With 25mm eyepieces you could get a low magnification of 24x with a field of view of 2.2°. It would give you the light equivalent of a 66mm binocular.
So max low power wide field you would have 24x66 bino at 2.2°, OK I guess, but not much to write home about.
With 20mm eyepieces 30x = 30x66 at 1.7°
With 18mmSWA eyepieces 33x = 33x66 at 1.9°
On the other hand a 20x80 binocular gives you the light equivalent of a 95mm scope to one eye. You only get one power, but with about 3° fov. It would take a 113mm scope with binoviewer to get the same light equivalent.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Joad
Wordsmith
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 11919
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[snip]"Hmmm, I wonder if someone has thought about making a set of dual-tube Mak binoculars?! "[snip]
Oh yes, and commercially too. The Italian company Astromeccanica (I'm going to have to check the spelling on that) makes them (or made them: I'm not sure if they are still in business). Problem with a MAK binoc is that the MAK is not designed for the sort of wide-field viewing experience that makes binocular viewing special.
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sftonkin
sage
Reged: 02/25/04
Posts: 395
Loc: Kent, UK
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Quote:
Hmmm, I wonder if someone has thought about making a set of dual-tube Mak binoculars?!
6" f/10 good enough for you? 
(clickable)
Quote:
Problem with a MAK binoc is that the MAK is not designed for the sort of wide-field viewing experience that makes binocular viewing special.
Another potential problem is inherent in any OTA that focuses by moving the primary mirror; to do this, there will inevitably be some "slop" and "shift"; if there is any differential in the amount of "shift", it will play havoc with collimation.
But your point is well-taken; as I have said somewhere before, once binoculars get big, I begin to wonder what advantages they have over a slightly bigger OTA and binoviewer.
--------------------
Stephen
Hindsight: The only truly diffraction-limited system
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12581
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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This has most of what you desire
miyauchi 20x77
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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ssemone
member
Reged: 04/18/06
Posts: 12
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Good morning, EdZ,
Yes, the short list for me of angled viewing on the binocular side of the house is basically the 20x77 and the 20x60 from Miyauchi. I also saw that Apogee is going to release the RA70SA, whose big brother's mini-review was pretty good (for the cost).
http://www.apogeeinc.com/product.asp?itemid=69&catid=32
It looks to me that the the newbie pro/con list for binoculars (at least on the very small set above) over an OTA and binoviewer is something like this (folks should feel free to add their own, of course).
Binoculars
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More portable
Less bit and bobs to carry / lose / damage
More light gathering for their size
Would likely get more use
Cost on these varies from $400 (the RA70SA) to about $670 for the Miyauchi's.
If I were to give up angled viewing, multiple eyepieces, and add some weight for waterproof/fogproof I could get the Garrett 20x80 Triplet's for $270 (that is a very tempting deal).
66mm/80mm OTA + binoviewer (the inverse of above and...)
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Greater choices of accessories (eyepieces / t-adapters, etc)
Potentially better color correction
Interestingly cost is about the same for two of the OTA + binoviewer setups...giving up aperture for ED and size/weight savings)
For instance the SV66(ED) and the SV Nighthawk with the binoviewer / diagonal and eyepieces are both about $700. Both of these setups have been favorably spoken of either at the SV forums or here at cloudy nights (although admittedly the SV66-ED may look a bit funny with a BV on the back, but since I'd be doing a lot of daylight work I suspect the ED would be helpful with CA).
The Meade 32x110's don't seem to have any real advantage here (okay, other than aperture) since they lack the flexibility of a more traditional telescope and run $800.
So with all of that being said I find it interesting that the joys of long-distance binocular viewing haven't made a full sweep into birding. In other words you'll see pics like this http://chbc.carolinanature.com/fieldtrips.html and while there are a few binoculars around the popular "distance" equipment is the traditional spotting (single-eye) scope (pentax, zeiss, etc..).
Won't the manufacturers hear my plea to build this?
A portable water/shock/fog-proof refractor OTA / Bino with option for 45 degree viewing that accepts 1.25" eyepieces is under 7 pounds and less than $500? 
Cheers,
Sean
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