Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2554
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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Japanese Quality vs. Chinese?
I have been researching 60mm and larger astro binos for six years. I have read everything I could find on the internet and astro publications about them during that time. Allow me to offer another data point in this "Japanese Optics= Superior Optics, Consistent QC; Chinese Optics = Inferior Optics, spotty QC", discussion.
I purchased my first pair of 20X80s in 2001 after many month of research (reading CN reviews, Yahoo Binocular forum, excelsis.com, magazines, books). They were a pair of Japanese Orion 20X80s, list price was $399. I bought mine on sale for $340 and free shipping. IIRC, the Orion Megaview selling for ~$500 was the only 80mm binos considered "better" than the model I selected.
A few month after my purchase a much more experienced binocular astronomer than I, and owner of the same Orion 20X80, posted he was upgrading to a Fujinon 16X70 FMT SX. Price for the Fuji was ~$600 at that time. His web site: http://www.stargazing.com/
Fuji FMT SX is considered by many to be a "reference standard" 70mm astro bino offering near premium optics at a very attractive price. Water proof, fog proof and Mil spec construction. I recall Florian ordered a pair from one dealer, found some minor(collimation or other) issues with the first. Ordered a 2nd from another vendor, had problem with that one also, returned that pair and received a 3rd pair. The 3rd pair was perfect. Everything he wanted in a Giant Bino. (I think dealers were Oberwerk & Adorama)
Not long after receiving his 3rd pair of Fujinon FMT SX Florian offered his Japanese Orion 20X80 for sale. Another forum member purchased it and was very pleased. I still have my Orion 20X80 but I prefer to use my lower cost Chinese 80mm LW: 2 lbs lighter, wider FOV, handholdable for short sessions.
As for the Japanese(Vixen,etc)= "premium optics", consisten QC, Chinese optics= "often inferior" supposition, please see the following CN user report:
http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=182
I believe my own Japanese 25X100s also have a Vixen connection. My Vixen catalog from 2001-2002 show 100mm binos looking identical to my ProOptic 25X100. My Japanese 25X100 is of solid construction, very good workmanship. Average to good, not premium optics, IMO.
I've been to China about 1/2 dozen times for business and pleasure during the last decade. Considering the size of the country, their pace of development is simply astounding by European and North American standards. (Think 1.3 billion people, 10% annual growth vs. 300 million, 3% growth for a decade). Take another country in that region, S Korea, the quality of Samsung & LG (Goldstar) and Hyundai products have improved greatly in a very short time as well. In many cases they are superior to well established American brands.(Just go to your local Sears or BestBuy and check out their appliances dept). Many of us are old enough to remember the early Toyota, Datun and Honda subcompacts from the 1970s. I suggest it would be best to avoid generalizations about the techincial know-how & capabilites of countries with such rapid growth....
Erik D
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Joe Ogiba
Post Laureate
Reged: 02/14/02
Posts: 3361
Loc: NJ USA
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My TeleVue 16mm Nagler T5's were made in Taiwan, Republic of China so I see no reason why top quality binoculars can't be made in mainland China. My Pentax PCF 10x50 WP II's were made in China along with my Oberwerk BT 80-45's and I bet there will be many top quality Phase-coated roof-prisms coming from China soon.
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Pentax PF-80ED
Meade 102ED APO
Orion EON 72
120ST
Apex 127
C6 XLT
CR150
C9.25
XT10
Zeiss 7x42 FL
Canon 10x42L IS WP
15x50 IS
12x36 IS II
Garrett Optical 28x110 HD-WP Signature Series
Oberwerk BT-80 45
Apogee RA-88-SA
Denk II Power x Switch binoviewer w/13mm Ethos, 20mm Pentax XW's, 20mm Widescan III's.
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Joad
Wordsmith
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 11919
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I think that Erik comes to the optimal conclusion here: things are changing so fast that old conceptions are no longer accurate. As our own Bill C has told us a number of times, the quality of your Chinese binocular depends upon what its ordinarily American (but also possibly Japanese) importer requests. The Chinese appear to have learned the ropes and can deliver pretty much whatever is demanded.
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LunaC
super member
Reged: 10/06/06
Posts: 198
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I watched a show on outsourcing in China. I came to the conclusion that the quality will be supplied based on that which the contractor wishes to pay.
edit:  or like Joe said
Edited by LunaC (02/12/07 05:29 PM)
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Ortho2000
sage
Reged: 01/09/07
Posts: 278
Loc: Northern Virginia
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Not that it is Chinese or Japanese, but years ago I bought a pair of Leitz 7x42 rubber armored roof prism binoculars. They were made in Portugal. The CA quality was horrid. My Japanese 1969 vintage Model 124 Tasco 7x50s had better CA performance but slightly inferior edge of field sharpness and contrast. That was then and this is now.
I really don't have a handle on what the scenario is for 2007. I do think my next bino purchase will be Oberwerk BT 100-45 's .
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Ancient Orange Astro C-90 Celestron
Ancient Meade 2080 8 inch Schmidt-Cassegrain
Vixen ED115S APO 4 1/2 in Refractor & GPD2 Mount.
Meade ETX125 Mak
Unitron 60 mm F/15 Equatorial Refractor
Unitron 100 mm F/15 Equatorial Refractor
Stellarvue 80mm NHNG on Vixen Portamount
Meade 80mm DS-80AT F/11 GoTo Refractor (yardsale)
Vixen 16x80, Zeiss 10x40, Tasco #124 7x50 WA, Leitz 8x20 Roof Prism, Olympus 10x25 Roof Prism
Lunt 60mm Solar Scope on Order
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Upwards Tilt
member
Reged: 02/07/07
Posts: 38
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I agree with LunaC. You can get very good binoculars from China or you can get very cheap binoculars. I think a lot of it depends on what level of interaction the "buyer" has with the maker and how much they want to spend in QC for a particular product.
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BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2109
Loc: Washington, USA
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Quote:
I watched a show on outsourcing in China. I came to the conclusion that the quality will be supplied based on that which the contractor wishes to pay.
edit: or like Joe said
About once in every three or four hundred posts, one will come along that is so pithy and accurate that it should be carved in stone. THIS IS ONE!
In general, folks on this list take too much . . . in general!
SOME japanese instruments are junk and SOME Chinese instruments are incredibly good--especially for the money.
However, as long as people judge products simply by their point of origin, the line between the two will be forever muttled.
One fellow on this list frequently touts the performance of a particular instrument that has been banned from my shop because I have yet to see one in collimation. By the same token, I don't recall ever seeing a MTR or FMT come in out of collimation. Frankly, I would suspect a few gray-market problems. But then, I certainly don't know that for sure.
This is why the gospel according to Bill has always been buy the PRODUCT and not THE NAME.
Just a thought.
Bill
--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .
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johnno
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 807
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Hi All,
Bill,
You are Absolutely correct,
In fact,if people go to the Kunming Website,they will see that the Importer can specify quality,in Coatings,etc,etc,
and of course the Associated price differences.
Regards.John
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Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2554
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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This one has a Happy Ending:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/binocularastronomy/message/899
ERik D
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Rick
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/12/05
Posts: 2574
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
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From my perspective, the question is not Japanese vs. Chinese but the European optics giants vs the Asians. Do the Europeans really deserve their price premiums? I think not.
cheers,
Rick
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Joe Ogiba
Post Laureate
Reged: 02/14/02
Posts: 3361
Loc: NJ USA
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Quote:
From my perspective, the question is not Japanese vs. Chinese but the European optics giants vs the Asians. Do the Europeans really deserve their price premiums? I think not.
cheers,
Rick
I agree, and Leica increased the prices by $100 on their premium binoculars like the Leica 10 x 42 BL Ultravid from $1,795 to $1,895.
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Pentax PF-80ED
Meade 102ED APO
Orion EON 72
120ST
Apex 127
C6 XLT
CR150
C9.25
XT10
Zeiss 7x42 FL
Canon 10x42L IS WP
15x50 IS
12x36 IS II
Garrett Optical 28x110 HD-WP Signature Series
Oberwerk BT-80 45
Apogee RA-88-SA
Denk II Power x Switch binoviewer w/13mm Ethos, 20mm Pentax XW's, 20mm Widescan III's.
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Joe Ogiba
Post Laureate
Reged: 02/14/02
Posts: 3361
Loc: NJ USA
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Some interesting Chinese roof prism binoculars .
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Pentax PF-80ED
Meade 102ED APO
Orion EON 72
120ST
Apex 127
C6 XLT
CR150
C9.25
XT10
Zeiss 7x42 FL
Canon 10x42L IS WP
15x50 IS
12x36 IS II
Garrett Optical 28x110 HD-WP Signature Series
Oberwerk BT-80 45
Apogee RA-88-SA
Denk II Power x Switch binoviewer w/13mm Ethos, 20mm Pentax XW's, 20mm Widescan III's.
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Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2554
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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Part of the dramatic price increase of premium European Optics is due to the anemic US$. We took a family trip to Italy in 2001. At the time the Euro was worth ~ 82 cent U$. Today it's worth $1.30 USD. That's over 50% increase for the Eruo. Europe is not high on my list for vacation travel.
IIRC, the Leica Ultravid 10X42 BR intro price was ~$1,300 a few years back. I did consider getting one back then. I am in no hurry of making a purchase at today's price. There are plenty other worthy binos at a fraction of the cost.
Erik D
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Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2554
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
Some interesting Chinese roof prism binoculars .
Looks like they are targeting the US market. FOV specs are in feet/yards....but they forgot to change the units of wt.
The 8X42 has 8 deg+ FOV!
Erik D
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Joe Ogiba
Post Laureate
Reged: 02/14/02
Posts: 3361
Loc: NJ USA
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Normally you would have to get an 8x32 to get 8° FOV since most premium 8x42 roofs have 7.4° FOV.
--------------------
Pentax PF-80ED
Meade 102ED APO
Orion EON 72
120ST
Apex 127
C6 XLT
CR150
C9.25
XT10
Zeiss 7x42 FL
Canon 10x42L IS WP
15x50 IS
12x36 IS II
Garrett Optical 28x110 HD-WP Signature Series
Oberwerk BT-80 45
Apogee RA-88-SA
Denk II Power x Switch binoviewer w/13mm Ethos, 20mm Pentax XW's, 20mm Widescan III's.
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Upwards Tilt
member
Reged: 02/07/07
Posts: 38
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Many of the binoculars you see in the link are already available, in different armoring, from many known brands stateside.
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Joe Ogiba
Post Laureate
Reged: 02/14/02
Posts: 3361
Loc: NJ USA
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Vortex Hawk Owl 8x56 Binoculars look like the BW3 Series but with an even wider FOV.
--------------------
Pentax PF-80ED
Meade 102ED APO
Orion EON 72
120ST
Apex 127
C6 XLT
CR150
C9.25
XT10
Zeiss 7x42 FL
Canon 10x42L IS WP
15x50 IS
12x36 IS II
Garrett Optical 28x110 HD-WP Signature Series
Oberwerk BT-80 45
Apogee RA-88-SA
Denk II Power x Switch binoviewer w/13mm Ethos, 20mm Pentax XW's, 20mm Widescan III's.
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edwincjones
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 4423
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I have avoided this thread due to espected China bashing, but this seems balanced
edj
--------------------
n w arkansas
Binocular, Solar, General Amateur Astronomy
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Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2554
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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Imports from China is THE biggest contributing factor to our huge trade deficit. However, it does help lower our CPI quite a bit each year. We are paying less for clothing and shoes than we did 20 years ago and getting equal or better quality.....I am a subscriber of Milton Freidman's free market theory: As long as other countries are able and willing to offer good products at a lower price than we can do so ourselves, why not?
We need to focus on products we enjoy better competitive advantage. Premium APOs, for example, to make sure those who have the $$$$ can have a reasonable chance of getting one in their lifetime. ;-))
Western Europeans enjoys high standard of living, health care, social services, longer holidays, better than the US in many cases. But there is a cost.... 3 Euros for a 10.5 oz can of Coke....
Erik D
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Joe Ogiba
Post Laureate
Reged: 02/14/02
Posts: 3361
Loc: NJ USA
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I am waiting for a Chinese clone of the Zeiss 7 x 42 T* FL Victory Series Roof Prism Binocular with 8.6° AFOV .
--------------------
Pentax PF-80ED
Meade 102ED APO
Orion EON 72
120ST
Apex 127
C6 XLT
CR150
C9.25
XT10
Zeiss 7x42 FL
Canon 10x42L IS WP
15x50 IS
12x36 IS II
Garrett Optical 28x110 HD-WP Signature Series
Oberwerk BT-80 45
Apogee RA-88-SA
Denk II Power x Switch binoviewer w/13mm Ethos, 20mm Pentax XW's, 20mm Widescan III's.
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johnno
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/03/04
Posts: 807
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Quote:
Some interesting Chinese roof prism binoculars .
Thanks Joe,
Indeed some interesting Binoculars.
I have the 10x42.
OK,
But fine focusing,a real pain,especially during Daytime,
Quite ok at night.
Lack Of, Depth of Field,may be causing this.
Regards.John
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wilash
Fairy Godmother
Reged: 09/30/03
Posts: 5746
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Where did you get the idea Vixen was "premium optics"??? They are the Meade/Celestron of Japan. They offer good, low-cost optics for the masses.
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Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2554
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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Will,
To follow the Vixen= "Primium Optics" proposition, you will need to go back to the "Q2, Most Difficult Decision?" thread. There have been a lot of discussion about the Vixen Ark 80mm binos having more consistent QC or optics superior to the best of of the giant binos from China these days. EdZ moved it to start a new thread.
I am aware that Vixen supplied telescopes and binoculars under Celestron and Orion brand name for many years. My own Celestron Nova 7X50, Waterproof 10X40 roof prism, 80mmF5 ST refractor and 15-60X60mm spotting scope were Vixen products. I consider them good quality products for the 1980s, before APO scopes with ED/SD/FL glass. I understand Vixen makes quality APO refractors but I never considered Vixen Binoculars in the same class as Fuji FMT SX, Nikon Astrolux or Takahashi Astronomer. I wouldn't be surprised if there are more Vixen products sourced from China than from Japan these days. Vixen is a marketing company, same as Celestron or Meade. They all have some very good products, some not so good. ....
ERik D
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Rick
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/12/05
Posts: 2574
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
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Quote:
There have been a lot of discussion about the Vixen Ark 80mm binos having more consistent QC or optics superior to the best of of the giant binos from China these days. EdZ moved it to start a new thread.
I was in a big optics retailer here yesterday and saw they had the whole ARK series in the display cabinet along with the Nikon 18x70. Naturally, I could not resist giving them a second peek since from a distance, they do APPEAR to be nice stylish binos. I wanted to snap some comparison pics with the Nikon from my cell phone cam but the salesman would not allow it.
I looked through the 30/20/16x80. To cut to the chase, my negative opinion has not changed. Again, I am almost 100% positive these are not made in Japan because if they were, the Japanese optics "guild" requires they label it so. The ARKs have no such label or engraving.
While I certainly could not measure in the store, I would say the AFOV specs are wildly optimistic, especially with the 16x, whose view was very straw-like. On axis sharpness is "lacking" and degraded from about 50% out. All showed some prism cutoff. The oculars appear to made from plastic but I cannot be 100% sure. The lack of FMC optics is very apparent. The "face" test clearly revealed my frowning face. If I was forced to buy one, the 20x80 seems to be the pick of the bunch.
I really hate to slam anyone's choice of instrument, but it really pains me to hear of the prices some folks are paying for these ARKs, especially when you can apparently get near Fuji FMT quality now from the cheaper Chinese series 8.
cheers,
Rick
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Joe Ogiba
Post Laureate
Reged: 02/14/02
Posts: 3361
Loc: NJ USA
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Quote:
Where did you get the idea Vixen was "premium optics"??? They are the Meade/Celestron of Japan. They offer good, low-cost optics for the masses.
Were did I say Vixen was premium optics ? 
--------------------
Pentax PF-80ED
Meade 102ED APO
Orion EON 72
120ST
Apex 127
C6 XLT
CR150
C9.25
XT10
Zeiss 7x42 FL
Canon 10x42L IS WP
15x50 IS
12x36 IS II
Garrett Optical 28x110 HD-WP Signature Series
Oberwerk BT-80 45
Apogee RA-88-SA
Denk II Power x Switch binoviewer w/13mm Ethos, 20mm Pentax XW's, 20mm Widescan III's.
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BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2109
Loc: Washington, USA
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Just because a good optical firm sells to the "Big Box" distributors, it does not necessarily follow that they are producers of big box merchandise.
I have a Tele Vue Genesis that I love very much. I have a Vixen 102 ED that I use more.
As in dealing with countries of origin, it is better to praise or trash individual products and not the whole company. That is, unless their track record warrants it.
To me, Vixen's track record does not warrant a trashing.
Of course, that's just my 2 cents worth.
Cheers,
Bill
--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Machanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma,WA
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .
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Joe Ogiba
Post Laureate
Reged: 02/14/02
Posts: 3361
Loc: NJ USA
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I was not knocking Vixen, I was wondering were I mentioned Vixen in any of my posts in this thread.
--------------------
Pentax PF-80ED
Meade 102ED APO
Orion EON 72
120ST
Apex 127
C6 XLT
CR150
C9.25
XT10
Zeiss 7x42 FL
Canon 10x42L IS WP
15x50 IS
12x36 IS II
Garrett Optical 28x110 HD-WP Signature Series
Oberwerk BT-80 45
Apogee RA-88-SA
Denk II Power x Switch binoviewer w/13mm Ethos, 20mm Pentax XW's, 20mm Widescan III's.
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Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2554
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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From "Premium Optics" to "Trashing"? We seem to be going from one extreme to the other!
To me Rick from Tokyo shared his observations about the Vixen ARK 80mm binos based on HIS first hand experience, not about the whole company.
Celestron imports some quality binoculars from China. I can do without many Chinese roof prisms from their Outland Series. I just purchased several 3X28 Opera Classes from Vixen NA closeout for under $8 each. They looked pretty good in the photos. I gave them a try because they were from Vixen, not flea market specials. They have a Vixen Label and part number on the case. They are little better that Toy R Us optics, not marked made in Japan. I don't judge the rest of the Vixen product line by these plastic opera glasses.
ERik D
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Rick
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/12/05
Posts: 2574
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
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I have/had several Vixen scopes and binos. Just bought another FL70S this morning, in fact. Hopefully I may have another FL102S soon too.
I agree too that Vixen is the Celestron/Meade of Japan but I don't feel that speaks negativetly of their products. Their optical products are marketed by almost all the large retailers here while Takahashi, Pentax, and Borg telescopes are found in only the small optical specialty stores.
There is nothing really bad about the ARK series, just they don't deserve the price premium they seem to selling for outside of Japan. If they were priced similar to the previous generation Chinese giants offered by Oberwerk for example, then I would be more forgiving of their shortfalls.
cheers,
Rick
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Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2554
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
I looked through the 30/20/16x80. To cut to the chase, my negative opinion has not changed. Again, I am almost 100% positive these are not made in Japan because if they were, the Japanese optics "guild" requires they label it so. The ARKs have no such label or engraving.
Rick
I have purchased dozens of Japanese optical equipment during the past quarter century. ( still have most of them). I don't recall a single instance of Japanese optics not identified by it's country of origin. I just checked my lowly Bushnell Sky Rover Insta-focus 9-30X40mm Zoom spotting scope. It was purchased in 1981 for under $50. The Japan Telescopes Institue Inspection(JTII) sticker is still affixed. My 1986 Celestron 10X40 Roof Prism is marked "Made for Celetron in Japan" on the carrying case and "Japan" on the barrel hinge. My 2005 Bushnell Custom Compact 7X26 has a very small "Japan" marking.
I would think any importer of Japanese optics would go out of their way to identify their Japanese origin these days....unless they are not.
ERik D
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Chopin
Canis Insanus
Reged: 02/03/05
Posts: 3379
Loc |
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