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Pat G.
sage
Reged: 04/24/03
Posts: 382
Loc: Sunny Southern Ontario
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What makes "anti-aircraft" optics special? 
The link is to an item on that other auction site for a WWII 90° 12x60 bino that has these optics.
http://tinyurl.com/ypcb99
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Patrick G
Celestron NS11 GPS
Tele Vue 102
Miyauchi 20x77 binos
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BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2449
Loc: Washington, USA
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"What makes "anti-aircraft" optics special?"
For some, it's a wide, relatively flat fields.
For many, it's poor memories, gullibility and legends built from old wives tales.
Cheers,
Bill
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William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Optical Mechanic, WG-11, Navy, Puget Sound Naval Shipyard
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Mechanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma, WA
Contributing Editor (Instrumentation), Dockside Magazine
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .
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edwincjones
Postmaster
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 5943
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Quote:
"
For many, it's poor memories, gullibility and legends built from old wives tales.
Cheers,
Bill
sounds good to me
edj
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n w arkansas
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mttafire
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/02/06
Posts: 1114
Loc: midwest
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huh?
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God Bless America
Binocular astronomy
for me ONLY.
8x45 Garretts
15x70 Skymasters
2 eyes!
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tommyhawk13
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/28/07
Posts: 739
Loc: Jacksonville, Fl
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I think Bill is saying that it's snake oil.
I'm surprised the fact that they are Carl Zeiss optics isn't the meat and potatoes of the ad. I've read that a lot of the old German bino's were Zeiss, but his name was not used.
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Meade Starfinder 8,Meade SN-8 OTA, Orion Atlas, and a handfull of film cameras
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Jim Rosenstock
Post Laureate
Reged: 07/14/05
Posts: 4185
Loc: MD, south of the DC Nebula
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Quote:
I think Bill is saying that it's snake oil.
I'm surprised the fact that they are Carl Zeiss optics isn't the meat and potatoes of the ad. I've read that a lot of the old German bino's were Zeiss, but his name was not used.
The same seller has some German "U-boat binoculars" listed with a reserve of something over $2k. 
I guess if you were aboard a German submarine in WW2, you could take these binoculars, open the screen door, walk out on the deck, and observe to your heart's content! 
Ahhhh well, German optics have a strong reputation, and "mil spec" is considered a good standard....but I must have left this week's spare $2k in my other pants, so will pass this one up...
Clear skies,
Jim
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QUESTION AUTHORITY!
"errr....sez who??"
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RRaubach
AstroCowboy
Reged: 01/26/05
Posts: 2173
Loc: Douglas (Converse County),WY
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Point of information here: the 3 letters "blc" are a manufacturers code. During WW II, the Germans were obsessivly secretive regarding the source of their optics. This particular designation "blc" is the code for Carl Zeiss, Jena. Equally important is the serial number, since many of these old optics were actually made prior to 1939, and are REALLY good. If the manufacturer's name is used along with the logo, that is a clear indication of pre-war manufacture.
I have a pair of 10x80 Schneider, Kreuznach "Flak Fernrohr" binos with the commercial logo, and the optics are excellent. Considering that they are over 70 years old, the optical performance is still impressive. What are the disadvantages of these old glasses? Field curvature due to the Erfle eyepiece design, and CA is pretty noticable. They are also quite heavy.
I actually have a collection of these binoculars, and I have samples made by Schneider (most common), Ernst Leitz, Emil Busch, and Richard Fuess. I even have a pair of Busch binos with the original orange antireflection coatings still intact and usable.
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Rodger
Meade SN-10 (UHTC) on Tak EM-200 mount/Antares rotating rings. Moonlite focuser.
Parallax 14.5" Newtonian on HD 200 mount (arriving soon!) w/ conical Royce mirror.
TMB 203 f/7 APO refractor on Tak NJP-160 mount.
Discovery 12.5" PDHQ
Schneider 18x80 "Flakfernrohr" binoculars/tripod mounted. Canon 15x50 IS binoculars
Unihedron Sky Quality Meter
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BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2449
Loc: Washington, USA
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"I think Bill is saying that it's snake oil."
Not exactly; but, things aren't always as they seem. Case in point: The famouse Zeiss "border glass" did have coatings that were DESIGNED for that purpose and the design was carried out effectively. Some others were "pretty" but, shall we say, considerably less effective.
I'm surprised no one has mentioined the Asahi Pentax gold coatings.
Cheers,
Bill
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William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Optical Mechanic, WG-11, Navy, Puget Sound Naval Shipyard
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
20-year vet. of Captain's Nautical Supplies, Optics Dept. Mgr.
Optics Mechanic, WG11-3306, Ft. Lewis, Tacoma, WA
Contributing Editor (Instrumentation), Dockside Magazine
Yata, Yata, Yata . . .
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tommyhawk13
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/28/07
Posts: 739
Loc: Jacksonville, Fl
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I don't know much about bino's, but I know the Zeiss camera lenses are very nice. During WWII, the Russians took over the Zeiss factory, and set up shop in Russia. They copied the designs of his cameras and lenses, and supposedly re-badged some Zeiss products. This is why the old cheap Zenits and Kievs are sought after.
Meanwhile, good old Carl stayed in business, made a deal with a Japanese company, and Yashica started off with good quality optics designed by Carl. I have some Yashica camera lenses that are very, very nice, and dirt cheap.
My point to all of this is that sometimes it's just the name you are paying for.
Rodger, thanks for the "blc" code.
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Meade Starfinder 8,Meade SN-8 OTA, Orion Atlas, and a handfull of film cameras
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BlueRidge
sage
Reged: 01/12/07
Posts: 288
Loc: Blue Ridge Mtns., VA
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If you do some searching on the Miyauchi vendor sites in Japan, they advertise the BR-141s as 'anti-aircraft' binos.
Bill H
Syria, VA
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Celestron Skymaster 15 x 70's, Miyauchi BR-141's
Celestron Nexstar 11 GPS, SkyAlign upgrade
Celestron 9.25 XLT OTA, CG-5 Mount
Stellarvue SV90TBV
Denk II Binoviewers/#S2 Power/Filterswitch
21mm and 14mm Denk EPs
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Pat G.
sage
Reged: 04/24/03
Posts: 382
Loc: Sunny Southern Ontario
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Quote:
I guess if you were aboard a German submarine in WW2, you could take these binoculars, open the screen door, walk out on the deck, and observe to your heart's content!
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Patrick G
Celestron NS11 GPS
Tele Vue 102
Miyauchi 20x77 binos
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ronruiz44
sage
Reged: 08/29/07
Posts: 280
Loc: West Texas
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Quote:
Quote:
I guess if you were aboard a German submarine in WW2, you could take these binoculars, open the screen door, walk out on the deck, and observe to your heart's content!
Achtung, fertig, los eins - los zwei! 
A lot of the so called hype is pure nostalgia or whatever - most of the older prewar and wartime optics were not up to today's technological standards! That doesn't mean they are not usable for their intended purpose assuming they are not damaged, etc. Flakfernrohren were designed to observe aircraft at heights and distance. Their astronomical use depends on their condition - I used a pair of 10 X 80's (Zeiss) for several years and they were very sharp but exhibited a lot of color on astronomical targets like the moon!
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Ron
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mattyfatz
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/27/06
Posts: 1441
Loc: Boise Idaho
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Yikes.... get a load of that swatzsticka
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**Matty**
Stimulating the economy, one piece of equipment at a time.   
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Gordon Rayner
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/24/07
Posts: 1093
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The 12 x 60 has 60 deg. inclination. The Achilles' heel is deterioration of metallized roof faces on this model.
Which is the "Zeiss border glass", Bill ?
Does anybody know about the recent Navy purchase of the KOMZ 20 x 110? Inclination is 60 deg , as I recall, field 90 deg, yellowish images.
Has anybody seen any clear glass versions of the 90 deg field TAL (Novosibirsk) 15 x 110? (30 deg. deviation)?
Mr. Ruiz: Which "Zeiss 10 x 80" did you have? What was its inclination?
I have about 100 pages of the Busch 10 x 80 plans. You can see fragments of them in some of the books, for which fragments I received no credits.
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ronruiz44
sage
Reged: 08/29/07
Posts: 280
Loc: West Texas
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Mr. Ruiz: Which "Zeiss 10 x 80" did you have? What was its inclination?
I have about 100 pages of the Busch 10 x 80 plans. You can see fragments of them in some of the books, for which fragments I received no credits.
Gordon
WOW! "Mr." even -  Actually I go by Ron! The Zeiss 10 X 80s I had were probably a similar design to the Busch 10 X 80s you refer to. They were in excellent condition in their wooden box with accessories, etc. They were 45 deg inclination with uncoated optics! They were finished (externally) in beige (?) colored paint and had the Zeiss "blc" code with the serial number and the blue triangle and the red X! My brother had a similar pair with the "dkl" (Schneider) code but his pair had coated optics - as I remember sort of a reddish purple color! My brother's were also finished, externally, in white paint! We no longer have either pair however!  I was foolish in my younger years!
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Ron
Edited by ronruiz44 (01/14/08 08:12 AM)
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RRaubach
AstroCowboy
Reged: 01/26/05
Posts: 2173
Loc: Douglas (Converse County),WY
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The "beige" color is actually sand tan; it indicates that they probably were from the Afrika Korps. The factory finished these in a dark olive green, and the local users repainted them. You are correct: "dkl" was the code for Schneider.
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Rodger
Meade SN-10 (UHTC) on Tak EM-200 mount/Antares rotating rings. Moonlite focuser.
Parallax 14.5" Newtonian on HD 200 mount (arriving soon!) w/ conical Royce mirror.
TMB 203 f/7 APO refractor on Tak NJP-160 mount.
Discovery 12.5" PDHQ
Schneider 18x80 "Flakfernrohr" binoculars/tripod mounted. Canon 15x50 IS binoculars
Unihedron Sky Quality Meter
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Joe Ogiba
Post Laureate
Reged: 02/14/02
Posts: 4439
Loc: NJ USA
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12x60's in WWII
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Pentax PF-80ED,Meade 102ED APO,Orion EON 72,120ST
Apex 127,C6 XLT,CR150,C9.25,XT10 ,Celestron Regal 100 F-ED
Zeiss 7x42 FL,Canon 10x42L IS WP,15x50 IS
12x36 IS II
Garrett Optical 28x110 HD-WP Signature Series
Oberwerk BT-80 45, Apogee RA-88-SA
Denk II Power x Switch binoviewer w/13mm Ethos, 20mm Pentax XW's, 20mm Widescan III's.
17mm Ethos, 22mm Nagler, 40mm Pentax XW, 14mm Pentax XL, 5.2mm Pentax XL, 8-24mm Pentax XL Zoom, 31mm Axiom LX
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Roadbike
member
Reged: 12/02/06
Posts: 69
Loc: Virginia, USA
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They are special only if you collect older binoculars, get excited about older german military equipment or have Walter Mitty like dreams of being a German Fire Control officer. Otherwise they will be very heavy and likely underperform any moderately priced modern binocular of comparable specs.
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Gordon Rayner
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/24/07
Posts: 1093
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Unfortunately, the only modern production binoculars with inclined views and big prisms to feed big, high eye relief, wide angle,big pupil configurations, of which I am aware, are the Novosibirsk TAL 15 x 110 with its yellow images. The inclined Fuji 25 x 150 has*only" a 6mm pupil, is expensive, and is not really high eye relief. There is a very rare 45 deg. inclined WW II Nikko or Toko 15 x 120, with the huge eyepieces of the straight version 15 x 120. The modern Miyauchi prisms are not large enough to low-vignettingly feed big pupil, wide angle, high eyepoint equipment such as those.
Any 10 x 80 of the Busch 45 inclination type, with blc marking, is an extreme rarity ( if indeed that is how the ex-Ruiz pair was marked}, and I believe is unheard of. So grab one if it comes your way and sell to one of the big spenders who collect rarities per se. There are other inclinations which are indeed marked blc.
Unfortunately the Busch 10 x 80 oculars are not high eye relief, though adequate without spectacles. Most not coated, either.
When do we get some clear glass from TAL or KOMZ, or some big prisms from Kunming, with or without inclined view?
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Roadbike
member
Reged: 12/02/06
Posts: 69
Loc: Virginia, USA
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Quote:
Unfortunately, the only modern production binoculars with inclined views and big prisms to feed big, high eye relief, wide angle,big pupil configurations, of which I am aware, are the Novosibirsk TAL 15 x 110 with its yellow images. The inclined Fuji 25 x 150 has*only" a 6mm pupil, is expensive, and is not really high eye relief. There is a very rare 45 deg. inclined WW II Nikko or Toko 15 x 120, with the huge eyepieces of the straight version 15 x 120. The modern Miyauchi prisms are not large enough to low-vignettingly feed big pupil, wide angle, high eyepoint equipment such as those.
Any 10 x 80 of the Busch 45 inclination type, with blc marking, is an extreme rarity ( if indeed that is how the ex-Ruiz pair was marked}, and I believe is unheard of. So grab one if it comes your way and sell to one of the big spenders who collect rarities per se. There are other inclinations which are indeed marked blc.
Unfortunately the Busch 10 x 80 oculars are not high eye relief, though adequate without spectacles. Most not coated, either.
When do we get some clear glass from TAL or KOMZ, or some big prisms from Kunming, with or without inclined view?
I don't know the answers to your questions. But I do know that if those old glasses delivered what astro and terrestrial viewers were looking for, that modern binocular manufacturers would be cranking out copies. But modern manufacturers are not stepping backwards 70 years in their design. I think it is safe to say that the binoculars we see for sale today are in good part a response to demands from binocular users.
Whether a binocular design is old, rare or both is not of much interest to me. I'm much more interested in how it performs.
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