STEEL
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Reged: 01/24/07
Posts: 53
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I wanted to know if it is determined that the prisms of 20 x60 are undersized. It 'important defect?
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12146
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Of the Pentax binoculars that I've measured, none were reduced by more than 1mm. However, I did not measure the 16x60 and I've never had the 20x60 in my hands.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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STEEL
member
Reged: 01/24/07
Posts: 53
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I am not sure if the prisms are undersized in 20x60, I hope that some person I confirm that not be true. What happens if the prism is smaller?
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
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Quote:
What happens if the prism is smaller?
You would have a smaller effective aperture.
Effective Aperture
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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syed
member
Reged: 04/11/08
Posts: 75
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Undersized prisms cause vignetting. Take a look at the exit pupil.If it is tending toward lozenge shape then that's an indication of undersized prisms.Undersized prisms are an indication of cost cutting during the manufacturing process.
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12146
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Quote:
If it is tending toward lozenge shape then that's an indication of undersized prisms.
No, that would be an indication of tilt in the prisms. You can have cats eye shaped prisms even if they are not undersized.
There are several methods we have already clearly outlined for testing effective aperture. Those are the methods to check for undersized prisms.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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syed
member
Reged: 04/11/08
Posts: 75
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So it may be like this that if the exit pupil tends toward lozenge shape then that would be an indication of undersized prisms OR tilt in prisms.Then there would be a better method that will determine for sure if the prisms are undersized.
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syed
member
Reged: 04/11/08
Posts: 75
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Stephen Tonkin in "Binocular Astronomy" does say that if the exit pupil is tending toward lozenge shape then that's an indication of undersized prisms.
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RichD
super member
Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 159
Loc: Derbyshire, UK
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Isn't Stephen referring to a clipped exit pupil (A flat edge on one side rather than a perfect circle) as opposed to a lozenge shape?
-------------------- Clear skies
Rich
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12146
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
So it may be like this that if the exit pupil tends toward lozenge shape then that would be an indication of undersized prisms OR tilt in prisms.Then there would be a better method that will determine for sure if the prisms are undersized.
Well, we can see several things in the exit pupil.
If we see an eliptical (lozenge?) shaped exit pupil, is not an indication of too small prisms. If we see an edge cut off on one side, it is an indication of small prisms. If we see a diamond shape it is an indication of the type of prism being used. So I'm not sure what Stephen had in mind, but at the very least, that statement is confusing.
Read the links I pointed to understand how to measure for a too small prism.
A circular image with a line cutting a chord across one side is an indication of a too small prism. Other than that you can have perfectly round prisms and they can be too small, or you can have diamond shaped exit pupil and it can be full size.
A diamond (lozenge?) shaped exit pupil is an indication of BK7 glass used in the prisms. It doesn't necessarily mean they are too small. It shows the nature of BK7 glass when used as a prism. The prism aperture could be full, and you would still see it as diamond shaped.
As I stated earlier seeing an eliptical shaped exit pupil, or as I sometimes refer to it as a cat's eye, is an indication of a tilted light path, not necessarily a too small prism. We see this sometimes when the prisms are being tilted to align images, but either the wrong prisms were tilted or there are other problems in the optical alignment requiring too much tilt that result in a not round exit pupil. But I will stress again, this is not an indication of a too small prism. You can get an eliptical exit pupil even in a binocular with prisms that are not too small.
The appropriate tests are outlined in the reference link above. One test is the direct reading of a scale with a loupe, but although that may show vignette is reducing aperture, it doesn't necessarily indicate the prisms are too small, so further investigation is necessary to determine whether the reduction is due to a baffle or the prism aperture.
Simply checking the size of the exit pupil does not necessarily give the answer. First magnification must be verified. Once magnification is verified, then you can use the multiple masks test to check exit pupil sizes and verify aperture. If there are no baffles interfering, then this will confirm a too small exit pupil.
So for the most part, other than the straight line chord mentioned above, there may be no visual indication that the prisms are too small. A proper investigation to reveal a too small prism involves checking baffles, prism aperture and magnifiaction. Without checking those, you cannot reveal if the prisms are too small. And even if they are too small, they can still produce a perfectly round exit pupil.
But now I'm repeating myself. All of this is explained in the link above. So please refer to that link for full explanations.
edz
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STEEL
member
Reged: 01/24/07
Posts: 53
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Can I stay calm which is a 20x real?
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AV in CMH
sage
   
Reged: 11/07/05
Posts: 263
Loc: Columbus Ohio
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Recently I and dropped broke my 15 x 70mm binoculars. Because of this I’ve been following this and other threads on the Pentax 20 x 60mm as I have been considering buying them as a replacement. To me these are a means to a close up view using a relatively low weight reasonably price instrument. The reviews on this site with the exception of this thread make me think that the quality and performance of this binocular is very good. Am I wrong about the reports on this binocular?
I certainly understand the disappointment in discovering that the characteristics of something like a binocular is less than expected. However, putting the potential loss of aperture and less than perfect exit pupil aside how is the view? Can you see a sharp flat field out to 90%? If the effective aperture turned out to be 58mm rather than 60mm would that outweigh a sharp flat field? Given the market, is there another binocular with similar characteristics at a like price?
If possible and given the large amount of positive comment on Pentax in general would it not be reasonable to return these for another sample?
Peace, thanks,
Anthony
Edited by AV in CMH (06/09/08 10:15 AM)
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oneaudiopro
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Reged: 03/15/07
Posts: 72
Loc: aurora, colorado
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I say ignore the unsubstantiated myths and rumors. The Pentax binos are superb and the only downside that has ever been written about them is their smaller field of view, which is normal for most high power instruments. Buy them, enjoy them, and if you're like me............will never sell them
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STEEL
member
Reged: 01/24/07
Posts: 53
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I think that the Pentax is a great binocolo.I benefits of quality optics and mechanics are excellent and not make it a problem to 2 mm in diameter on the loss.
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oneaudiopro
member
Reged: 03/15/07
Posts: 72
Loc: aurora, colorado
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No one has ever documented any "loss" in the 20X60's. Why do these myths and rumors continue to poliferate?
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AV in CMH
sage
   
Reged: 11/07/05
Posts: 263
Loc: Columbus Ohio
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Good question.
Perhaps by next week I can let you know about the view with the ones I ordered.
I think that it is part of my nature and perhaps of many on this forum to look just as closly at the equipment details as we are to look at the sky. I have to be careful and remember that its about the balance between value and performance and use and not just one of the factors.
Tony
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BillC
on a new path
   
Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 2082
Loc: Washington, USA
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Rumors will be with us as long as they are good for conversation starters and as long as those who are NOT SURE keep getting their talking points from those who DON'T KNOW.
Cheers,
Bill
-------------------- William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Founding Editor, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
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KennyJ
   
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 9975
Loc: Lancashire UK
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I have no reason to believe other than that this Pentax model is a true 20 x 60 , but even it proved to be , for example , a 18 x 56 in reality , if I owned one , so long as I were happy with the quality of build and with what I saw through it , I probably wouldn't mind so much .
Of course , though , with a 2.2 degree TFOV , if it WERE only 18x magnification , then the AFOV would be down to 39.6 degrees -- so it would be highly unlikely that I WOULD be happy with what I saw through it ! :-)
Regards Kenny
-------------------- Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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STEEL
member
Reged: 01/24/07
Posts: 53
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(AV in CMH) Even in a few weeks I'm buying the 20x60, however I hope it is a 20x true and equally as real diameter.
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patter1
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/19/05
Posts: 592
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
...I hope it is a 20x true...
I doubt it'll be exactly 20x ...do you need exactly 20x and not 19.5x or 20.5x ?
-------------------- Patrick
8" f/6 NewStar dobsonian
Orion Starblast 4.5" f/4 mini dobsonian
42mm SuperView, 17mm Nagler T4, some other cheapies
Omcon 7x50, Oberwerk 11x56, Olympus DPS-R 7x35, Olympus Magellan 8x25
homemade 50mm right-angle bino-scope prototype
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oneaudiopro
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Reged: 03/15/07
Posts: 72
Loc: aurora, colorado
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I doubt it'll be exactly 20x ...do you need exactly 20x and not 19.5x or 20.5x ?
I'm astonished that the rumors still persist. Usually there is alot of good info passed on to other readers of these forums, but once and a while, the posts go off on all this heresay info. Alot of people who read these posts are interested in purchasing good optical equipment and rely on the info provided in these posts to make an intelligent and informed decision. I don't think it's proper or reasonable to post information on a product that you know isn't true, or you heard it's true but can't provide any proof. Sorry to rant, but I read these posts every day and sometimes use the info to choose one product over another, but have to read thru the lines to determine fact from fiction. Im done now..................................................Bob
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patter1
professor emeritus
Reged: 01/19/05
Posts: 592
Loc: Canada
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I'm just asking about his apparent need for "20x true" magnification; unless I'm mis-interpresting what he's asking, it sounds like he's picky about it really being very close to exactly 20x. I never made a claim about how close to 20x the magnificion of this binoc really is.
-------------------- Patrick
8" f/6 NewStar dobsonian
Orion Starblast 4.5" f/4 mini dobsonian
42mm SuperView, 17mm Nagler T4, some other cheapies
Omcon 7x50, Oberwerk 11x56, Olympus DPS-R 7x35, Olympus Magellan 8x25
homemade 50mm right-angle bino-scope prototype
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oneaudiopro
member
Reged: 03/15/07
Posts: 72
Loc: aurora, colorado
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Only that you "infered" that it wasn't, so why shed doubt when it probably isn't true?
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12146
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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One of our members here in the CN binocular forum sent me his Pentax PCF WPII 20x60s so i could test it. It arrived today and I happened to be home from work, so I measured aperture.
Checking exit pupil at the full aperture I get a 3mm exit pupil. This would lead most people to believe it is a full 60mm aperture. However, this measuremeent by itself is insufficient to tell anything about the actual magnifiaction and aperture.
Using a scale at the objective end and using a loupe to read clear aperture, I get a reading of 57mm.
Placing a 50.5mm aperture mask over the objective end and remeasuring exit puipil, if magnification were truly 20x then the exit pupil would now remeasure 2.53mm. With the 50.5mm mask, I get an exit pupil of 2.65mm. With a 50.5mm aperture and a 2.65mm exit pupil, magnification must be 50.5/2.65 = 19.06x
Now getting back to my first measurement of exit pupil, if aperture is 57mm and if magnification is 19.06x, then I should see a full exit pupil reading of 57/19.06 = 2.99mm. My full aperture exit pupil reading is measured 3mm. This checks.
These measurements and readings check between the two methods.
The Pentax PCF WPII 20x60 actually measures 19x57.
These are maximums. I rechecked all measurements and got slightly lower in the second set of data.
Thanks Stan, for helping me resolve a controversy. Real measurements trump speculation every time.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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KennyJ
   
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 9975
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Thanks for that Ed. , and to Stan also .
Did you think to measure the TRUE true field of view while you were at it , Ed -- or perhaps later at night time ?
Kenny
-------------------- Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12146
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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all else will come later Kenny.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12146
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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There are no baffles interfering in the light path. From all indications, the aperture reduction is due to a too small prism shelf aperture. edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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STEEL
member
Reged: 01/24/07
Posts: 53
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Thanks EDZ, you have finally confirmed that is a 19x57. You have been able to observe with the pentax, you can tell us something?
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Wes James
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 2310
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I think the bottom line here is that it is the end results that matter here. A shortage of 1X of magnification and 3mm of aperture is not enough to offset the good views that are invariably reported by all the happy users of this binocular. This is a case of the error in the listed specifications not impacting the quality of the views. I'll take great views over accurate specs anyday, given a choice between one or the other.
-------------------- Wes
Atlantic Beach, FL
Some bino’s from Miyauchi 5x32 Binon's up through Garrett 20x110 Signature's,
Some telescopes from a Stellarvue 80mm NHNG up through a couple of 8” reflectors…
And a wonderful 4.25" Delmarva Shiefspiegler!
Some good friends, made here on C/N.
Oh- several cats and a wonderful wife!
Anyone want a cat???? :-O
"When your work speaks for itself- Don't Interrupt" -Gamble Rogers
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hallelujah
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1435
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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Quote:
I'll take great views over accurate specs anyday, given a choice between one or the other.
I'll second the motion! Why keep straining at a knat?
Knat=Manufacturer's spec.'s
-------------------- Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II asph FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP asph FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II asph FMC/WP/FP
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/Japan
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/Japan
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/Japan
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP
Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth
Edited by hallelujah (06/11/08 09:19 PM)
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hallelujah
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1435
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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Quote:
Thanks Stan, for helping me resolve a controversy.
edz
Glad to be of help. Kinda like ghostbusters. We need to eliminate as many bogeymen/rumors as possible.
-------------------- Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II asph FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP asph FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II asph FMC/WP/FP
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/Japan
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/Japan
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/Japan
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP
Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth
Edited by hallelujah (06/11/08 10:31 PM)
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hallelujah
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1435
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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Quote:
Thanks for that Ed. , and to Stan also .
Kenny
You are welcome, Kenny. Maybe I'll start a list of people who want to check it out. You will be next on the list.
-------------------- Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II asph FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP asph FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II asph FMC/WP/FP
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/Japan
Orion 16x80mm |