CESDewar
GorillAstronomer
Reged: 01/16/05
Posts: 1734
Loc: Morganton, GA, USA
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After spending 30 minutes working on Hercules 100 (in another thread on this forum), I spent a good part of the evening looking at the moon with my Tak 22x60's. These are just amazing binoculars. They are about as close to being completely color-free as any binoculars I've ever looked through. But it is the contrast and sharpness that never cease to elicit a wow when I look through them..
When the moon is near full, I actually find the views (apart from the terminator) through these binoculars to be more satisfying than views through a telescope. At higher magnifications, the fully lit portion of the moon loses contrast and just looks washed out.
I always enjoy trying to see the smallest feature and tonight in Sinus Iridium, I could clearly see the small crater Laplace A. This crater is only 9km across, but it has a bright rim that stands out well against the darker floor. A crater of that size only subtends 4.8 arc-seconds, so that's more than a respectable catch for binoculars! I took the attached photograph of the region during a prior lunation on my TMB 105/650 and it clearly shows the bright rim.
The larger, nearby craters Helicon and le Verrier (25/20km) were visible too in spite of much lower contrast, but seeing Laplace A pop up was a nice bonus for the evening viewing. I also looked at the moon in my 30x77 binoculars and while I could just barely make out LaPlace A, it was not nearly as clear as it was in the lower-powered Tak's.
I have a bit of a love-hate relationship with the Tak's - the ergonomics of the Miyauchi 30x77's are superior - 45° EP's, integral dew shields, 3x finder as a carrying handle, 2pr. of EP's, etc., but they just don't snap into focus like the Tak's, and the loss of 17mm of aperture almost seems to be made up by the superb contrast of the optics. I'm a stickler for superb optics and so these Tak's are definitely staying in my collection, even if my neck doesn't appreciate the extra craning!
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edwincjones
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 4206
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watch the next lunar eclipse with the binoculars-a fantastic sight to view the red color crossing the moon giving a whole new perspective
and the moon in large binoculars is my most popular public star party object
edj
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n w arkansas
Binocular, Solar, General Amateur Astronomy
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ronharper
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 02/14/06
Posts: 957
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CES,
Lucky you, and about what you'd expect from little paired Tak telescopes.
It seems the somewhat maybe sort of APO-lensed 22x70 rumor is slowly vanishing in the haze. And the next available step up, custom mounted paired larger APOs, is hugely expensive. Your TAK really seems to hit a sweet spot of performance. Thanks to TAK's decision to base it on a traditional binocular platform, its cost effectiveness is also impressive.
Ron
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edwincjones
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 4206
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Probably my miyauchi 22x60 hits the closest, but is no longer being produced( I believe), and doesnot have the APO optics.
the Fuji 15x70 or its clones is close.
I very much regret not getting the Tak when it was available.
edj
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n w arkansas
Binocular, Solar, General Amateur Astronomy
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pcad
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/17/05
Posts: 1462
Loc: Connecticut
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Hi Ron, CES, Ed,
Thanks for posting about the Tak 22x60 and what you can see with it. I'll try to find the same detail with the 22x70. As far as APO-like performance, I'm just not experienced enough to judge how much C.A. is there. At the very least, it's comparable to the 66ED and 102ED scopes I have access to.
I've tried buying a 22x60 Astronomer a couple of times, but it's harder to do than it sounds. At this point I would have to say I'm out of the market after getting the 22x70ED.
Peter
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Peter
Telescopes 25 - 318 mm
Binoculars 15 - 88 mm
Microscope 50x - 1000x
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ronharper
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 02/14/06
Posts: 957
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Peter,
Pardon the haze stuff, I was just down reading that Wes is going to get rid of his 22x70, and didn't even say why. We're certainly not getting the premature gushy whiz-bang first impressions we were hoping for. Your quick comparison to ED scopes, although rather measured and bone-dry, is actually very encouraging. But for whatever reason, CES is certainly out-backflipping you!
Ron
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pcad
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/17/05
Posts: 1462
Loc: Connecticut
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Not a problem Ron. I still consider myself quite a novice in this hobby. I doubt I'll ever be able to backflip as an observer or in real life. As EdZ mentioned in another thread, it would be ideal to get both of these binoculars into the hands of an experienced observer. I'm not holding my breath.
Whether CES meant to or not, his observations give me a target that I can look for and, hopefully, find. It's as good a way of comparing two differant bino's by differant people in differant locations and conditions as any.
Just have to figure out where Sinus Iridium is and I'll be all set. 
Peter
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Peter
Telescopes 25 - 318 mm
Binoculars 15 - 88 mm
Microscope 50x - 1000x
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10029
Loc: Lancashire UK
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My good friend Brian ( CN member Medinabrit , currently otherwise engaged ) also has the Takahashi 22 x 60 ( along with some other excellent binoculars and APO scopes ) and he is the first to admit that it is a " specialised instrument " , but one that does what it does WELL , better than ANY other instrument he has , or has tried -- and that is a more impressive list than he would probably care to admit to in detail , here ! :-)
At risk of throwing a little spanner in the works here , I feel obliged to add that THROUGH MY EYES , in certain daytime viewing conditions , looking at certain combinations of objects , even true APO objectives , per se , DO NOT COMPLETELY eradicate chromatic aberration .
I would go so far as to suggest " far from it ".
The more time I spend trying to eradicate annoying C.A from my views , however slight , the more I'm inclining towards a belief that it is at least as related to focal ratio as it is to lens configuration and absence of exotic materials from the objective lenses .
Kenny
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Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10029
Loc: Lancashire UK
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CESD ,
What a stunning image of the moon THAT is !
I LIKE it -- a LOT !
Kenny
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Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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Wes James
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 2345
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Ron-
I had posted comments in another thread here on my impressions of the W/O 22x70's... The 2 main issues for me were the out-of-focus stars from about 80% out- and contrast. I, too was looking for a TAK 22x60 in them, and didn't find it. They were, however, very good in the lack of C/A as far as I was concerned.... didn't see any on the moon. So I'll pass them along to someone else if they want them- maybe they'll like them better than I did. If not, and no takers, I'll keep them. That- and the other factor was if I was going to get my P-mount out for them- which is really what they need, I'll just go ahead and mount my 20x110's. I just sold my Fuji 16x70's as well, they never really grabbed hold of me, either... a bino everyone knows is a great astro bino. I tend to prefer smaller bino's- in the 10x range- or the big ones. Still hoping to find a TAK someday.
Got the prototypes at a good price, so can make someone a good deal on them if they want them.
Wes
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ronharper
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 02/14/06
Posts: 957
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Wes,
Thanks for that summary since somehow I missed your original comments. Sorry the 22x70 wasn't your dream come true. I'd love to look through a TAK 22x60, but never had the chance. I've never owned a really big bino, and wonder if I could take it without going crazy. The TAK and the much more expensive Kowa sound like two that would challenge the eyes.
I find the Fuji 16x70 to be a difficult instrument to master as far as really sharp views. But when the sky is dark, and I just let it all go and look at dim stuff, the contrast knocks me out, and the views of easier object are ditch-the-scope satisfying. The recent version is lightweight enough to hand hold in my chair, so we struggle along. The Fuji 10x50 on the other hand, well you just stick it up there and instant happiness, but of course it won't show as much.
Ron
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 14359
Loc: Hurricane Alley
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Stuart,
Thanks for sharing your impressions of the Tak glass. Every person I have read about, says great things about them. Perhaps it can be argued that they are a "one trick pony", but they apparently do that trick extemely well.
The type of view you describe is exactly what I try to attain with the optics in my limited collection. Would you say that the view through the Tak 22x60 is a COOL bias, WARM bias, neutral, or....?
Regards and clear skies,
MikeG
PS - never ever sell the Tak binocular. It's an heirloom quality instrument and a bonafide collector's item. 
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Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Buy/Sell/Trade Meteorites, Moon Rocks, Mars Rocks, & Celestial Irons
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John F
sage
Reged: 02/16/04
Posts: 304
Loc: Washington State
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I watched the last lunar eclipse with the 22x60s Taks (seated comfortably in LaFuma recliner) and agree that it was quite a site through these binoculars. I especially remember being impressed by how three dimensional the view of the moon appeared to be that night.
John Finnan
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Leica 7x42 Ultravid
Nikon 7x50 Prostar
Swarovski 8.5x42 EL
Nikon 10x70 Astroluxe
Leica 12x50 Ultravid
Zeiss 15x60 B/GAT
Takahashi 22x60 Astronomer
NP-127 w/Bino Vue
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CESDewar
GorillAstronomer
Reged: 01/16/05
Posts: 1734
Loc: Morganton, GA, USA
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Quote:
Would you say that the view through the Tak 22x60 is a COOL bias, WARM bias, neutral, or....?
I don't know how much variation there is as this is the only pair I've ever looked through, but I would say it's pretty neutral, perhaps more on the cool side if anything.
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Wes James
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 2345
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Quote:
I find the Fuji 16x70 to be a difficult instrument to master as far as really sharp views. But when the sky is dark, and I just let it all go and look at dim stuff, the contrast knocks me out, and the views of easier object are ditch-the-scope satisfying. The recent version is lightweight enough to hand hold in my chair, so we struggle along. The Fuji 10x50 on the other hand, well you just stick it up there and instant happiness, but of course it won't show as much.
Ron
I agree with you on both bino's, Ron. When I realized the 16x70's were excess to me was when I compared them directly with the views through my 20x110's. There was no comparison! Obviously, comparing the two is no comparison, but you know what I mean. The big Garrett's are as you describe the 10x50's- just throw 'em up there; I'm amazed with them for the quality of the views for the price. I also have a pair of the Fuji 10x50 FMT-SX's, and agree with you- those are, indeed, keepers for me as well.
Wes
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edwincjones
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 4206
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For those of us who missed out on the Tak, there is still the miyauchi saturns and EDs and Kowas (the Tak would have been cheaper)
edj
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n w arkansas
Binocular, Solar, General Amateur Astronomy
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medinabrit
professor emeritus
Reged: 10/27/04
Posts: 510
Loc: medina ohio USA.
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Unfortunately the Miyauchis are almost impossible to find anymore .Ive been searching for months & fortunately was able to find the Saturn 2 pleiades just 2 days ago due to an ad i put on AM .
I just cant wait to try them out.Hopefully they will be here by next week.
Big Binoculars told me they didnt know if they would be able to get anymore.
Brian.
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medinabrit
professor emeritus
Reged: 10/27/04
Posts: 510
Loc: medina ohio USA.
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That should have said Saturn 2 & Pleiades .
Brian.
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CESDewar
GorillAstronomer
Reged: 01/16/05
Posts: 1734
Loc: Morganton, GA, USA
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Quote:
Unfortunately the Miyauchis are almost impossible to find anymore...
I just cant wait to try them out.Hopefully they will be here by next week.
I think you will be very pleased with them. The engineering is beautiful and they are just so light-weight compared with everything else. Miyauchi seems to be the only company that cared about making really light-weight instruments and as a result, they are a pleasure to use.
The Tak Astronomers have exquisite optics, but the Exceeds are no slouches either, and ergonomics make the Miyauchi's the binoculars I take out all the time. The exceeds are big enough to find a lot of DSO's.
And I'm certainly glad I got my Saturn III's when I did - the views through those are tack sharp and never fail to elicit a wow from people who look through them. It's a pity that we're probably seeing these wonderful instruments move into the realm of collector's items. I'm sure there will be lower cost instruments with good performance, but I doubt we'll ever see optics quite that good in such super-lightweight enclosures in the near future...
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pcad
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/17/05
Posts: 1462
Loc: Connecticut
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Had a chance to look for Laplace A last night. It certainly is a small feature, but I found it without much difficulty with the 22x70's.
It's nice that I can see the same crater as CES, but I can't say the subjective view is any better or worse than his with the Tak. There's also the issue of the differance between 60mm and 70mm, though with the Moon it might not make much differance.
While the 22x70 gives me the best views of the moon that I've seen through binoculars, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the view through the Tak is better.
Peter
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Peter
Telescopes 25 - 318 mm
Binoculars 15 - 88 mm
Microscope 50x - 1000x
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kcolter
member
Reged: 06/04/03
Posts: 54
Loc: Missouri, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Would you say that the view through the Tak 22x60 is a COOL bias, WARM bias, neutral, or....?
I don't know how much variation there is as this is the only pair I've ever looked through, but I would say it's pretty neutral, perhaps more on the cool side if anything.
Had my Tak 22X60 out looking at Jupiter and the moon this AM. My vote is "cool" for the image description. The lunar surface is white--the way it is in the Zeiss Abbe eyepieces, as opposed to the "warm" cream or slightly yellowish tint the lunar surface has in TeleVue plossls. I compared the image of the moon in the Tak's to the Fuji 16X70. The increased magnification and the lack of chromatic aberration (present in the Fuji) made the Tak image the better one.
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pedro
super member
Reged: 09/28/04
Posts: 194
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Hi
I just compared (some time ago) the Fuji 16x70 X the Takahashi 22x60mm mainly using the full Moon as my target – these were my impressions:
A) TRUE COLORS - While in the Fuji I could notice some very BUT (I need to confess) VERY slightly (just suggestive) ‘’salmon like’’ color on the entire Moon (I believe as a result of their deep green coating) she was REALLY very pure white in color in the Tak's...maybe I wouldn’t even notice that ‘’salmon like color’’ issue if I have just the Fuji there at those time…
B) FALSE COLOR/CA- The Fuji show a very evident CA / color fringe (for me) while in the Tak just only some slightly ''false color'' issue when with the eyes not properly centered with the optical axis - that ‘’false blue line’’ however comes from the eyepiece border and not from their objectives...so this is not a tragedy… with the eyes properly centered the Moon rim is really pure white and sharp.
C) SHARPNESS - I felt despite the high magnification of the Tak they are a step over the Fuji anyway regarding some fine sharpness - this was not a surprise for me since the Tak are (I believe) better corrected overall than the Fuji.- their objective carry 4 elements.
D) TRANSPARENCY - The transparency in the Tak is at the same league of the Fuji's if not better...The Tak coatings seems to be better than the Fuji IMO.
E) APERTURE - When looking at some dark part of the sky (to some faint stars) I didn’t feel the ‘’small Tak aperture’’ facing the 70mm...this was not just because the hig Tak power could suggest some better view on the same faint stars …I am talking about real brightness – I don’t know how but seems really like the Tak are not just a 60mm...maybe due their very high transmission/transparency.
Well this is what I found...
regards Pedro
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ronharper
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 02/14/06
Posts: 957
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Pedro,
Thanks for the comparison between this common workhorse and the rare exotic Takahashi, which I hope to try some day.
However, I would hesitate to subject my 16x70 to such an ordeal. I regard it as a specialty deep sky instrument. It offers excellent contrast and transmission. At full aperture however, sharpness is okay but not outstanding, and it shows more lateral color than many cheaper binoculars. I stop mine down when sharpness comes first. Looking at the moon with it at full aperture is probably the worst thing you could do with it, and I am surprised it came as close to the Tak as it did.
You didn't mention field of view, which is an important asset for deep sky observing. The 16x70 has it in spades. It is perhaps the only weakness of the 22x60.
Ron
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pedro
super member
Reged: 09/28/04
Posts: 194
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Hi Ron
I agree 100% with you regarding FOV- for me the BIG drawback in the Tak is just their narrow FOV when used as a deep sky instrument...this is why I don't have one of these anymore.
I like at least 3.5º when at 22X with a AFOV around 65º / 70º...unfortunatelly the Tak has just 2,1º/ 56º...not bad for some particular objects such as planets, Moon or some star cluster BUT their apparent narrow field of view bothers for me...just because I like to see the sky more as a ''big window'', but this is my personal feelings no doubt however about the Tak extremely high optical performance...for some who this ''field issue'' is not a nightmare they are quite fantastic...side by side with the Fuji they are optically a step over (the overall quality image forgiven here the field of view issue) IMO...I forgot to mention also their very better eye relief and comfort to use ''against the eye sockets'' when compared with the Fuji (very large eyepiece barrels with a short eye relief - a pain for some with narrow IPD or big nose) and they are also better balanced for some handheld fast sessions (for who have good steady hands).
regards Pedro
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pedro
super member
Reged: 09/28/04
Posts: 194
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Quote:
Tak has just 2,1º/ 56º
Just to correct my mistake - the Tak has a real FOV = 2,1º/ apparent = 46º.
Pedro
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