Stephen.S
member
Reged: 08/05/06
Posts: 22
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Hi,
This question really relates to my last one. I recieved a pair of 25x100 binoculars from Telescope Service of Germany. However, they arrived with some scraches on the central bar, the largest being about 2" and the lens caps are very loose. Do you think that this is reason enough to return them? Initally, I wasn't going too, but some people who have seen them think that I should. After all, they did cost about £260.
What would you do?
Stephen
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edwincjones
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 4117
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I think that this is an issue related to your sensitivity to the "defects" and the convenience/inconvenience of the return.
The scratch should not be there on a new pair of binoculars but it will not affect viewing, the loose lens caps may be a design isssue.
I think that it is reasonable to return them, but is it worth it to you?
edj
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n w arkansas
Binocular, Solar, General Amateur Astronomy
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 9975
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Stephen ,
If scratches on the central bar and loose fitting eye cups were the only things I could find at fault with ANY binoculars I bought , regardless of price , I would be more than satisfied ! :-)
Kind Regards
Kenny
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Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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mttafire
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/02/06
Posts: 1114
Loc: midwest
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Just get busy using them and you'll forget any issues you may have at THIS time.
Honestly, I dont even know if my center bar has scratches, I never looked.
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God Bless America
Binocular astronomy
for me ONLY.
8x45 Garretts
15x70 Skymasters
2 eyes!
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Shortymx
super member
Reged: 10/31/07
Posts: 126
Loc: 20º 41' N 101º 24' W
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I would return them. When you buy anything, especially something that is supposed to be a precision instrument, you have the right to expect a quality product, and one that the seller should proud to represent. If we continue to accept less than this, it only encourages manufactures, and venders to produce, and sell lower, and lower quality material. If anyone were making the purchase in a store, they would reject a product exhibiting those imperfections. Many venders take advantage of people buying via the internet to palm off second rate material.
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Shortymx
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Wes James
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 2310
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If the central bar didn't have any scratches on it when you got it- odds are it would after using it 3 or 4 times. Lens caps fit are a pet peeve of mine, and one you can't do much about. You could put a couple of slits in the sides of them- then wrap them snugly with some 1/2" wide tape of some kind.
If you were to exchange them, odds are every other one in stock would have just as sloppy a fit on their lens caps within the same brand/model. It's simply the lack of care manufacturers exhibit. The main issue, to me, is how are they optically. That's the issue you'll live with.
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Wes
Atlantic Beach, FL
Some bino’s from Miyauchi 5x32 Binon's up through Garrett 20x110 Signature's,
Some telescopes from a Stellarvue 80mm NHNG up through a couple of 8” reflectors…
And a wonderful 4.25" Delmarva Shiefspiegler!
Some good friends, made here on C/N.
Oh- several cats and a wonderful wife!
Anyone want a cat???? :-O
"When your work speaks for itself- Don't Interrupt" -Gamble Rogers
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photonovore
Moonatic
Reged: 12/24/04
Posts: 2465
Loc: tacoma wa
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You are the unwitting beneficiary of an unadvertised "scratch & dent sale". Write them, tell them what you got, condition-wise, that you expect new items to be NEW and not damaged (cosmetically or otherwise) and see what they say. You may find out just how much recourse you really have when dealing with overseas vendors... Hopefully though they will be responsive. A offer of return and exchange or a compensation check of a few percent would seem reasonable to me. New is new; demo is demo, nearly new is nearly new and lightly used is used. I have had a pair of 20x80's for two years, cased, used regularly on a mount, and there is not one single scratch on them--some people take more care than others perhaps. 
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Mardi
AR-5 ldx75 refractor, 80mm f/11 refractor, 6" eq3 RFT, ETX-70.
Whitepeak Lunar Observatory Website
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brentwood
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/04/05
Posts: 563
Loc: BC Canada
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If they are perfect alignment, with no scratches on the lenses, I would keep them and use a permanent marker pen on the scratch on the bridge.
If you got a replacement, it may have no scratches but be misaligned!
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Big telescope.Small telescopes.
Ridiculous binocular collection
I've cut it twice and it's still too short.
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Wes James
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 2310
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I can tell you that my Garrett 20x110's center bar is marked after using 4 or 5 times... the finish simply seems to be a surface that doesn't wear well... Marked up after the 2nd time I used, maybe. I do, however, agree with Mardi. New should be new. Unmarked. Lens covers, however- as far as fit- you're pretty much at the manufacturer's mercy, unfortunately. Optical performance, however, is the ultimate important factor imho.
Wes
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Rich N
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5176
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
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If the binocular is performing nicely, I wouldn't be too concerned about the fit of the lens cap or minor scratches on the support bar.
Rich
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GlenM
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/20/07
Posts: 796
Loc: 53° 36'N 2° 06'W
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Hi Stephen,
I must say that I am very surprised at some of the answers you have received about quality issues. I need some of those guys in my shop. I always get ripped a new one when there is a QC issue with what I sell. I even test it before it leaves the shop.
To look at it another way is,if you don't complain then they will keep doing it and we will all suffer for it.
I understand what people have said about the optics being good and putting up with the rest of the issues. Sorry,I can't agree. If you have paid your hard earned money for these and YOU are not satisfied then send them back.
I apologise to the guys who said keep them but I feel very strongly that you are WRONG. Wait until you get your next bino's that are not up to scratch..........
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Glen
Edited by GlenM (06/29/08 04:45 PM)
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Rich N
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5176
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
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Hi Glen,
If these are the typical modestly priced 25x100 binoculars, what do you think are the odds that a replacement would be out of collimation or maybe have not quite as nice optics?
Rich
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GlenM
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/20/07
Posts: 796
Loc: 53° 36'N 2° 06'W
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Hi Rich,
I do understand what people are saying about the 'cheaper' binoculars.None of the binoculars should be out of collimation and be useable when bought. They are selling a NEW product. Perhaps I'm a little fussy but I do expect things to be right.Do you Rich? Have you ever sent any binoculars back after paying out your hard earned money?
It is a difficult positon to be in for Stephen. We can only let Stephen make the decision. Lets hope it's all sorted out for him and enjoys the night sky.I know he will like CN binoculars forum. I certainly do.
Clear Skies.
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Glen
Edited by GlenM (06/29/08 06:00 PM)
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edwincjones
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 4117
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hi Stephen.S,
We do not seem to be making it easy for you with any agreement.
edj
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n w arkansas
Binocular, Solar, General Amateur Astronomy
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Rich N
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5176
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
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Quote:
Hi Rich,
I do understand what people are saying about the 'cheaper' binoculars.None of the binoculars should be out of collimation and be useable when bought. They are selling a NEW product. Perhaps I'm a little fussy but I do expect things to be right.Do you Rich? Have you ever sent any binoculars back after paying out your hard earned money?
It is a difficult positon to be in for Stephen. We can only let Stephen make the decision. Lets hope it's all sorted out for him and enjoys the night sky.I know he will like CN binoculars form. I certainly do.
Clear Skies.
Glen, I understand your point but these are very inexpensive for the size of the binocular. I would worry about getting into a cycle of going through several pairs before finding one that is "perfect", assuming the dealer is willing to keep exchanging binoculars.
Have I sent in a binocular for repair? No. But I do have one that cost about $4,500 USD a couple of years ago that I will be returning for repair. It has an issue with something in one tube shifting, causing an image problem in just that one tube. I noticed it a year ago but I have been busy and also I worry about shipping it.
Rich
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GlenM
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/20/07
Posts: 796
Loc: 53° 36'N 2° 06'W
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Very true. Sorry Stephen. I really shouldn't get on my soap box.
Whatever you decide enjoy the night sky.
Clear Skies(in the UK  )
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Glen
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GlenM
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/20/07
Posts: 796
Loc: 53° 36'N 2° 06'W
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Rich,
don't get me going on shipping and shippers I've gone off on one already tonight 
Could I just say that £260 ($509 at todays rate) is a fair bit of money for people in the UK financial climate at the moment.If you think us Brits don't complain well......
Good luck with your seriously expensive binoculars Rich.
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Glen
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 9975
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Well , in my own and I hope also in my friend Glen's defence , I didn't say DON'T send them back .
All I MEANT to say ( but kept it brief ) was that I would be more than satisfied to accept a little scratch on what is probably a ( faux chrome - plated ) length of metal rod , and lens caps that don't fit properly , if the binoculars were in true collimation , snapped into focus , had the stated eye - relief and TRUE field of view , were of the same true aperture as had been specified , had sufficient diopter adjustment range , showed minimal chromatic aberration , were sharp to at least 85% out from centre , had no play in the focus wheels , did not become knocked out of focus every time I accidentally tapped my brow against the eyecups , were well baffled , showed no stray light , had evenly applied coatings , did not have a central supporting bar , even if scratched , that swivelled of it's own true will , had no other visible defects and generally gave me a WOW factor every time I looked through them .
That said , I once ordered chicken buhna and fries in an Indian restaurant , and was served beef madras and rice instead , but still didn't complain ! :-)
On a more closely related note ,I recently waited NINE MONTHS for an astro - related item to be delivered from a world - renowned company in Germany , which cost me more than the price of what appear to be the amongst the most popular binoculars amongst many members here , and when it arrived , I found it did NOT do the job it was advertised to do !
I still didn't complain , or send it back !
I've mentioned this a few times in CN forums -- not one person has suggested I send the item back !!
Clear Skies
Kenny
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Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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GlenM
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/20/07
Posts: 796
Loc: 53° 36'N 2° 06'W
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Kenny,
Have you ever been brief? 
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Glen
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 9975
Loc: Lancashire UK
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< Kenny,
Have you ever been brief? >
Yes ! :-)
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Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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Rich N
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5176
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
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I think that same binocular sells in the US for about $350 these days.
I'm on your side when it comes to having a new product being right in fit, finish, and functioon, no matter the cost.
I'm just trying to be practical. I think it might take going through several pairs to find one that is flawless.
Rich
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GlenM
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/20/07
Posts: 796
Loc: 53° 36'N 2° 06'W
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That was pretty good for a Sunday night.
At your age Kenny you really shouldn't be eating Indian.
There is one good thing though you could be the next big gas find in Britain.
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Glen
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GlenM
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/20/07
Posts: 796
Loc: 53° 36'N 2° 06'W
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Rich,
it's getting more difficult I think. I wouldn't like to keep sending binoculars back until I got a good pair.Not that it happens in the UK. That's the reason I got my newest pair of binoculars from Zach at Garrett. WOW! shipping,vat,import duty,handling fee 
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Glen
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hallelujah
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1435
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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Kenny,
Now I'm finally beginning to UNDERSTAND alittle about the GRAND PRIZE in you Bio.
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Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II asph FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP asph FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II asph FMC/WP/FP
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/Japan
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/Japan
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/Japan
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP
Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth
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hallelujah
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/14/06
Posts: 1435
Loc: Colorado Rocky Mt. High
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Stephen,
I have returned, I think, more than my share of binoculars, for various reasons. It is RARELY an enjoyable experience. I can't remember if your e-bay purchase was represented as a brand new item or otherwise.
Have you at least looked through it, to SEE if all else is in excellent condition? Speaking for myself, the optics and the views are what would be of primary concern, as well as the mechanics.
Trying to keep internet vendors HONEST could turn out to be a lifetime struggle, to say the least.  Would it be profitable for you to return it?
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Pentax 12x50mm PCF WP II asph FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 16x60mm PCF WP asph FMC/WP/FP
Pentax 20x60mm PCF WP II asph FMC/WP/FP
Orion 15x70mm Little Giant II FMC/Japan
Orion 16x80mm Giant FMC/Japan
Orion 30x80mm MEGAView FMC/Japan
Barska 30x80mm X-Trail LW FC
Burgess Optical Series II 20x90mm FMC/WP/FP
Handel's Messiah**Hallelujah! For the LORD God Omnipotent Reigneth
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Stephen.S
member
Reged: 08/05/06
Posts: 22
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Hi,
Thanks for all your responses. If I'd bought them from a local retailer, I would have had no hesitation in sending them back, But to be honest as long as there is nothing else wrong with them, I don’t think I’m sufficiently bothered enough to take the trouble to return them. I think it was other people putting doublts into my mind.
I must say that I do agree with the people who say that if we buy something new, we have a right to expect cosmetic perfection. Some people have called the binoculars cheap, but everything is relative, and personally, I don't call $530 cheap. But even if they were $20 binoculars, we do have a right to cosmetic perfection if they're bought new.
A last point that I would like to make is that there seems to be many versions of these Kunming 25x100's. Telescope Service does have a high reputation, and they do point out that they have good lens coatings, so I do think I've bought a good version. I have only read good reports about these binoculars, so I'm looking forward to using them. However, I have no way of knowing if the binoculars are the latest FB version or not, So really it is caveat emptor... Buyer beware!
Edited by Stephen.S (06/30/08 10:25 AM)
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Rich N
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5176
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
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Stephen:
"...we do have a right to cosmetic perfection if they're bought new."
You might expect a product to be cosmetically perfect. However, a manufacturer can make and sell things pretty much any way they
want. You, as a buyer, can buy or not buy. But, I wouldn't call cosmetic perfection, a "right".
If a manufacturer advertises cosmetic perfection then you would have a good reason to complain if the product didn't meet the
advertising claims.
Rich
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Stephen.S
member
Reged: 08/05/06
Posts: 22
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Rich,
This is a very legalistic point. Here in the UK, we have The Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982. This says that traders must sell goods that are as described and of satisfactory quality, and are to a proper standard of workmanship.
Its been a few years since I studied law, but here in the UK, I think we MAY have a right to cosmetic perfection. However, I bought my Binoculars from Germany. And I know nothing about European Union consumer law. As far as trade is concerned, we now effectively live in “The United States of Europe”, so I would have guessed a similar type of consumer law does exists.
Stephen
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Shortymx
super member
Reged: 10/31/07
Posts: 126
Loc: 20º 41' N 101º 24' W
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So really it is caveat emptor... Buyer beware!
Caveat venditor also applies, and it's up to the buyers to keep the vendors honest.
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Shortymx
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Rich N
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5176
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
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Hi Stephen,
Someone could argue that the act you describe above does not necessarily imply that you have a right to expect cosmetic perfection. What is the definition of "satisfactory quality". What is the definition of "a proper standard of workmanship"? Do those terms really mean perfection in the cosmetic finish of a product, and in this case a binocular (ignoring for now that you bought it outside of the UK)?
Rich
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Stephen.S
member
Reged: 08/05/06
Posts: 22
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Hi Rich,
This is a very fair point, and to answer it I would have to study the law in detail and look at case law precedent. However, in a way, its an irrelevant point, as Telescope Service is a very well respected company in Europe, and I expect that they would give me a full refund if I wanted one. BTW, I don't, I'm looking forward too much to using them!
But I would say, that some way of distinguish between the different versions should be found, eg, Obwerk, TS, Straphsprey etc, they all look the same.
Stephen
Edited by Stephen.S (07/01/08 02:55 PM)
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Stephen.S
member
Reged: 08/05/06
Posts: 22
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Hi,
Just thought that I would let you know how this issue ended up. After several email to Telescope Service and a few pictures, they said that the scratching was normal and they must have been done during their testing.
I'm pleased to hear that they tested the binoculars, but I still don't think its acceptable to sell new binoculars with cosmetic faults. However, I don't intend to send them back. And I at least thank the company for their good communication.
Best wishes
Stephen
Edited by Stephen.S (07/02/08 10:40 AM)
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