Argonavis
Vendor
Reged: 12/01/05
Posts: 85
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About 3 years ago I purchased a pair of 22x100 chinese binoculars from a local supplier. I am sure you are all familiar with them, they are sold under various brand names, and cost under $500.
I thought it was the opportunity of owning a really big set of binoculars at a price that I could afford. Binoculars in this aperture range have always been ruinously expensive.
The problem was that they were not collimated. The prisms were adjustable but not easily. In fact I found it almost impossible to adjust them. I returned them to my supplier who claimed that they were all perfect when they left his shop, it must get out of collimation during transit, and balmed me for damaging the adjustment screws. It was returned to me without replacement or refund. They were still good for terrestrial viewing, but astronomically all stars were double. I sold them on eBay (as suitable for terrestial and marine applications) at less than half the price I purchased them for.
I recently purchased a pair of 15x70 "Fujinon clone" binoculars from the same supplier, and I am very happy with them. Best binoculars that I have ever owned. Joy.
Never to be detered, I thought my one off experience with the 22x100 was, well one off. So I recently purchased a pair of 25x100 chinese binoculars. Again the price is so low (even cheaper than the 22x100) that these are irrestable. Well, irrestable to a stingy old curmudgeon like me.
Problem is, they are not in collimation. I get double stars everywhere. The view through the 15x70 is just so much better, it leaves these for dead. If there was a chocie between the 25x100 and the 15x70, you would leave the 25x100 at home.
Unlike the 22x100, the 25x100 model does not have adjustment screws on the body of the binocular. It apprears to be covered with a rubber like outer shell. There are some screws on the rear face near the eyepieces.
Interestingly, as an aside, the 25x100 binos are a lot heavier than the 22x100's.
Are all these cheap chinese binoculars this bad?
What should I do?
Persist and get them professionally collimated?
Attempt it myself?
Sell them on eBay?
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charen
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/28/05
Posts: 780
Loc: New Zealand
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I am sure you will find they are able to be collimated. If you pull back the rubber casing you will see the adjustment screws - as the sites below explain.
Do not touch the front facing screws near the eyepiece,
I have the generic Chinese Kunming 25x100 IF binoculars. When I got them they were mildly mis-collimated. After adjusting the screws the star images were perfect. This only took me about 30 seconds. Star tests have remained perfect for a over year even with a fair amount of movement.
Other then a bit of CA they give bright sharp images and really are good value for money.
http://www.oberwerk.com/support/collimate.htm
http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=416
http://www.binocularschina.com/binoculars/25x100FB.html
Edited by charen (07/12/08 08:14 PM)
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Falcon Birder
super member
Reged: 04/16/07
Posts: 111
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well, I don't think this has anything to do with the binoculars being in China. There are binoculars from China with various quality from excellent to dismal, depending on who makes them and how much it costs. I think the problem lies on your supplier who did a poor job in quality control. You can contact some technicians who will do the collimation for a fee.
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Zen-Ray SUMMIT 10x42 WP
Swaroski 8.5x42 EL
Leica 8x32 Ultravid
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Argonavis
Vendor
Reged: 12/01/05
Posts: 85
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thanks Charen
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Nick Lloyd
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 10/24/06
Posts: 1624
Loc: cincinnati
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These are easy to collimate. Just go slow, use a mount, and make small adjustments.
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"The best scope is the one you use." -rcg
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oneaudiopro
member
Reged: 03/15/07
Posts: 81
Loc: aurora, colorado
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Unfortunately the old addage holds true.........."You always get what you pay for"...........Or as a good customer once told me "Cheap is expensive"..........Sad but always true 
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charen
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/28/05
Posts: 780
Loc: New Zealand
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These 25x100 from the Chinese Kunming factory are the ones sold by Garrett and Oberwerk and several others. They are well specified binoculars with FMC lens / Bak-4 prisms / Nitrogen filling etc
The general consensus on these forums is that they do give impressive images and they are well built. They are regarded as ‘quality’ binoculars and are a ‘step up’ from the 22x100mm versions.
I certainly do not regard these binoculars as in ‘cheap’ being inferior.
Chris
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35 binos.
80mm Cat.
WO66ED
SV NH 80mm / EQ3
Meade 8in.LX90
Skywatcher Equinox ED120 / Goto HEQ5.
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Argonavis
Vendor
Reged: 12/01/05
Posts: 85
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Quote:
These 25x100 from the Chinese Kunming factory are the ones sold by Garrett and Oberwerk and several others. They are well specified binoculars with FMC lens / Bak-4 prisms / Nitrogen filling etc
The general consensus on these forums is that they do give impressive images and they are well built. They are regarded as ‘quality’ binoculars and are a ‘step up’ from the 22x100mm versions.
I certainly do not regard these binoculars as in ‘cheap’ being inferior.
Chris
I can only agree that for what you get for the money it is excellent value.
Interesting that these are a step up from the 22x100, especially considering that they are cheaper.
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charen
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/28/05
Posts: 780
Loc: New Zealand
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Hi yes. The concerns with the ‘older’ 22x100’s are that they had the smaller prism housings. I believe they shared the same ones as the 20x80 versions. This had a detrimental effect on the image. The 25x100's fixed this concern.
Edz. has written considerable on this. If you go through the reviews on the various 22x/25x100s in the review section it will be explained more.
35 binos.
80mm Cat.
WO66ED
SV NH 80mm / EQ3
Meade 8in.LX90
Skywatcher Equinox ED120 / Goto HEQ5.
Edited by charen (07/13/08 06:20 AM)
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Jeff Morgan
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/28/03
Posts: 1511
Loc: Prescott, AZ
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Quote:
Unfortunately the old addage holds true.........."You always get what you pay for"...........Or as a good customer once told me "Cheap is expensive"..........Sad but always true
Or ... "You can always get oats cheaper - after they have been through the horse."
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Jeff Morgan
Prescott, AZ
Wile E. Coyote School of Telescope Making
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LateViewer
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Westchester NY
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Charen,
Great links. Thanks a lot.
Al
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12.5" Discovery String Truss Dob
DSV-1 Alt-Az Mount
WO 66mm Petzval
Orion 127mm Mak with WO 2" Dielectric Diagonal
Celestron CG-5 GoTo
8.8, 14, 18, and 24mm Meade UWA Series 5000 EP
32, 40mm Orion Optiluxe EP
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jdownie
professor emeritus
Reged: 02/24/06
Posts: 724
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Quote:
Unfortunately the old addage holds true.........."You always get what you pay for"...........Or as a good customer once told me "Cheap is expensive"..........Sad but always true
Also, nonsense - there are some fantastic deals in "cheap" optics.
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ATM project - a terrible waste of good Pyrex.
Edited by EdZ (07/14/08 06:29 AM)
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oneaudiopro
member
Reged: 03/15/07
Posts: 81
Loc: aurora, colorado
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Not to start a flame war but what exactly do you consider a "good deal" in cheap optics? I read all the time in this forum as well as others in this site that you saved hundreds of dollars on "cheap" optics that were such a great deal, yet when they arrived from the vendors you had to collimate, adjust, align, tweak, replace, return, etc.. Where do you draw the line between a good "deal" and a total piece of garbage? I personally would spend a little bit more on a piece of gear that I knew was QC'd properly and worked as advertised out of the box and didnt have to work on it myself to make it perform the way it should perform from the manufacture, after all, isn't THAT what you should have paid for?? I see post after post in this forum and some of the telescope forums that people try and justify their poor decisions on "cheap" optics by touting what a good "Deal" they are............Sorry, I just don't get it. If you paid $10.00 for a cheap pair of binos, you got a cheap $10.00 pair of binos. No need to make a post on how well they stack up against a $200.00 pair........they won't AND they shouldn't. I'm not saying that the most expensive are always the best, but you should expect to pay a reasonably amount for a product that performs flawlessly out of the box with the occassional defect which can happen to the best of manufacturers. If you read these posts on a regular basis then you'll notice that there are certain brands and models that have a long history of QC and manufacturing problems, yet the still are considered "GOOD DEALS"..............Am I missing something
. Just had to get that off my mind. You're still a great bunch of fellow astronomers............................................................................An inquiring mind wants to know!
Edited by EdZ (07/14/08 06:48 AM)
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12516
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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As long as the buyer understands what he is getting for his money, each is able to make the choice individually what they consider a good deal. That will differ dramatically from one individual to another. We will always have some who will say buy the best and we will always have others who will say buy the ceapest. FWIW, this was not a discussion about cheap binoculars, this was a disccussion about binoculars that needed adjustment. Some do, some don't.
Let it go at that.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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charen
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/28/05
Posts: 780
Loc: New Zealand
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I will attempt at a reply with some disorganized thoughts.
Yes the quality does vary considerably with binoculars. And generally speaking quality does cost more.
In this thread I was replying to the 22x / 25x100 versions from the Kunming Chinese factory. This particular manufacture does appear to produce consistently good binoculars esp. with their more ‘top end’ binoculars.
Kunming does produce a variety of binoculars for various companies like Oberwerk and Garrett. These companies order there binoculars with superior specifications like Bak-4 prisms / F.M.C. / W.P. etc. Other companies will order the ‘same looking’ binoculars with less specifications i.e. BK7 prisms / M.C. lens,
When you buy binoculars from a ‘name’ company like Oberwerk and Garrett they will make sure that the binos they sell also meet strict Q.A. standards.
A name company like Garret and Oberwerk will also have excellent warranties and will stand by there products.
The Kunming 25x 100 version is considered a ‘good’ quality binocular and the Q.A. is generally consistently good even if acquired via a different ‘no name’ company. The 25x100’s are not ‘inexpensive’ as such.
There are other Chinese companies that certainly do produce inferior products that are ‘cheap’ and not recommended.
Other companies like Barska, Meade, Celestron and many others will order more in bulk quantities that are sourced from other Chinese manufactures that have ‘inferior‘ specifications esp. for the smaller and more entry level varieties.
Also the QA standards are not as robust hence they increased chance of buying a poor quality one.
Having said that you may get a ‘relatively’ inexpensive, well collimated binocular that gives a ‘reasonable’ image that does meet your own relative expectations.
An example being the Celestron Skymaster 15x70’s. Some people believe these are good others not so good. Much does depend on the QA and it can be a ‘hit or miss’ affair.
So yes I think most people on C.N.’s do recommend ‘quality’ binos that you pay that little bit more for. What that price point is, is relative to that person buying the binoculars and obviously varies considerably.
Opinions and ‘cost effectiveness’ on binoculars will always be different which is human nature but that makes forums like this interesting.
Chris
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35 binos.
80mm Cat.
WO66ED
SV NH 80mm / EQ3
Meade 8in.LX90
Skywatcher Equinox ED120 / Goto HEQ5.
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12516
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
Hi yes. The concerns with the ‘older’ 22x100’s are that they had the smaller prism housings. I believe they shared the same ones as the 20x80 versions. This had a detrimental effect on the image. The 25x100's fixed this concern.
I tested both the original 20x80 and the 22x100 that were built on the same housing. A major problem with both od them was that the internal light path is tilted, moreso than could be centered with prism tilt. The net effect was that the light transmitted to the exit pupil was considerably off-balance. It made it nearly impossible to use the prism tilt screws to correct the problem. Fwiw, I was never able to fully correct the exit pupils in either of these by using the tilt screws.
The 25x100, on the other hand, was easy to adjust, has held its adjustment well, and has provided very well balanced images. Some of the most enjoyable observing I've recorded was using my Oberwerk 25x100.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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KennyJ
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10082
Loc: Lancashire UK
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To add a little point to Chris' excellent summary .
Now if anyone is very happy with their $50 binoculars , then that makes me happy too -- GENUINELY ! -- for more than 30 years , I myself got by with binoculars which are optically inferior to most of them .
But another thing I've noticed is it appears a high percentage of folks who swear their sub $100 giant binoculars are GREAT , have never actually looked through , or seen and felt the build quality of any GENUINELY GREAT binoculars .
It's a bit like me proclaiming to readers of a serious cycling forum that my £100 bicycle is GREAT !
Yes , it has two wheels , 21 gears , a chain and a seat -- and it gets me about -- but I wouldn't deceive myself or anyone else by trying to make out it's a GREAT bike , like those are which costs thousands of pounds !
Kenny
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Two eyes and a preference to use both
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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pcad
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/17/05
Posts: 1488
Loc: Connecticut
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Hi Kenny,
I agree with you about being able to enjoy equipment that's not considered premium or high quality. A friend who's a bicycle racer once told me that having ANY bicycle in good working order is perferable to no bicycle. I imagine the same can be said about binoculars also.
Peter
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Peter
Telescopes 25 - 318 mm
Binoculars 15 - 88 mm
Microscope 50x - 1000x
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Protheus
Vaguely offended
Reged: 09/01/07
Posts: 4643
Loc: Illinois, US
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Quote:
Hi Kenny,
I agree with you about being able to enjoy equipment that's not considered premium or high quality. A friend who's a bicycle racer once told me that having ANY bicycle in good working order is perferable to no bicycle. I imagine the same can be said about binoculars also.
Absolutely it can. I have the Zhumell 15x70s that some of us find to be way out of alignment on delivery, and actually like them pretty well. They are -- at the moment -- the best pair of binoculars I have, and provide reasonably good images. I do believe that they may be slightly "off" WRT collimation at this point, but the simple fact that it's taken me this long viewing with them to be sure seems to indicate that they aren't that bad. 
They've shown me quite a lot of things, and at a price I can afford. In terms of purchasing equipment for a hobby, "workable," and "affordable" is an unbeatable combination.
Chris
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"To tread the sharp edge of a sword;
to run on smooth-frozen ice,
one needs no footsteps to follow..."
"Well, people sometimes ask me 'how did you get involved in astronomy?' I said 'I got born, what's your problem?'" -- John Dobson
"In discussing the large-scale structure of the cosmos, astronomers sometimes say that space is curved, or that the universe is finite but unbounded. Whatever are they talking about?" -- Carl Sagan
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Mike Rapchak
sage
Reged: 11/17/06
Posts: 449
Loc: Indiana, USA
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Chris,
I agree with you. Folks should be honest here and not instantly react to less-than-favorable reports as "vendor bashing". If a type of bino is a risky purchase, it behooves us to inform/warn others. I got into a bit of a tiff here a year or so ago because of my comments (some may call them rants).... Being a relative newbie - like all of us here are or were at one time - I got stung by a bad pair of 25x100s .... In my case it was a matter of defective oculars. I fell for the sales pitch, etc., and the amazingly low price. At that time little did I realize what a gamble this was. Since then I've learned - via this forum - that the Chinese manufacture binos of varying quality levels, yet often this is not specified by them or by many dealers. I'm sorry, but I find this situation unacceptable - especially when it comes to the eager novice who knows nothing about this and ends up dismayed by his purchase. IMO this is not good business practice - selling what can essentially amount to a defective, nearly unusable product justified only by its very low price. Thus, after debating whether or not to exchange this defective pair for another and hoping it would be OK, I decided to forego (return) these big 25x100s and chose something smaller but of known quality (they are much more expensive but they are first rate, as such an instrument should be). What's that old saying? "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me". This protracted, tedious exchange-policy game gets old really quick. And it's so frustrating if the second pair isn't good. As I said, I never meant my comments in a hostile, emotionally excessive way; I just looked at the situation for what it is and thought it pretty darned sad. Here are eager, hopeful folks so desiring a pair of large binos at what is finally, for many of us, an affordable price - and look what happens.
As Ed and others have stated here repeatedly, it cannot be overstressed that there are varying levels of bino build and quality. If you don't wish to find out the hard way your best bet is to at least deal with a vendor that is knowledgable of these shortcomings and that will do its best to ensure that you receive a satisfactory product. Unfortunately (relatively) the only major players in the 100mm-and-up size that are affordable are the Chinese. This is not the best scenario; but what can one do? And at those affordable prices, there's not much choice otherwise.
Advice for newbies: From what I've learned here, there are two routes to go, period: Garrett and Oberwerk (this in the U.S; there are overseas [to me] vendors who offer the same products and [hopefully] the same service). At least they'll tell you what the different is between the various models. Be cautious of dealers still offering items like the 22x100s. Do your research, then buy the best from a vendor you can trust. In the end it will be more than worth it.
Mike Rapchak Jr.
P.S. Yes, I own Vixens, but they're relatively expensive. 
Edited by EdZ (07/16/08 10:51 AM)
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