Mark9473
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Here's something nice that I've been looking at the past few evenings with my 15x60.
I suspect one road in the stars that many of us have travelled along - and if not, you should - is from alpha to beta CAS, then at beta take a 90° right turn to get to the formidable open cluster NGC 7789.
Next time, after you've looked at NGC 7789, start over but at beta CAS take a 45° left turn. You then hit a pretty rich star field with a sprinkling of stars of 5th to 7th magnitude, and nested among them the open cluster NGC 7790 (and a few smaller/fainter ones as well).
What I found so interesting here, is that from the region of NGC 7790, starts a "path" of 9th and 10th magnitude stars that curves away and upward like a big inverted S, somewhat slanted, and miraculously brings you to the doorstep of M52 which I otherwise find notoriously hard to locate.
I suspect that the visibility of this pathway depends among other things on the limiting magnitude your sky and instrument allow, so I'd be interested in your impressions.
-------------------- Mark
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GlennLeDrew
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....which I otherwise find notoriously hard to locate.
That's one reason why I like huge fields of view; panning from one target to another is made so much easier. For example, even at 21X, my 4.7 degree field keeps me from wandering too far off the track when panning even more than 15 degrees when the general direction is known.
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RichD
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Interesting, i've never found M52 difficult to locate, I just draw an imaginary line extending from alpha to beta then extend it out the same length again beyond beta. I'll look for the path you describe next time. I've never really lingered on 7790 for long so i'll check it out more thoroughly.
This is one of my all time favourite areas to sweep with binos!
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BobinKy
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Mark...
Thanks for the report and the tip on the inverted S path to M52.
-------------------- Bob
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EdZ
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7790 is quite a difficult object. Consider that it is about 5 times fainter than 7789 and about 10 times less sparse in population and appears only 20% the diameter of 7789, and in comparison you are looking for a speck rather than a faint diffuse spot like 7789. I seldom see this cluster with binoculars.
edz
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Mark9473
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SAC lists it at mag 8.5 and 17' diameter; in comparison NGC 7789 is listed at mag 6.7 and 16' diameter.
To me it certainly doesn't look like a speck; the SAC listed diameter seems realistic. It appears more irregular though.
-------------------- Mark
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EdZ
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Quote:
SAC lists it at mag 8.5 and 17' diameter; in comparison NGC 7789 is listed at mag 6.7 and 16' diameter.
To me it certainly doesn't look like a speck; the SAC listed diameter seems realistic. It appears more irregular though.
Lughinbuhl and Skiff state the extent is 8 arcmin. They observed only 12 stars in a 4'x2' area with a 150mm scope under mag 6.5 skies. Archinal and Hynes tells us the size is only 5 arcmin, with a brighest star mag 10.
If all the star light were concentrated in a 1 sq arcmin area, it would reach its surface brightness, which is mag 12.
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ronharper
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When I first became interested in ngc 7790, it took me a while to figure out what I was supposed to be seeing. There is a large loose asterism of relatively bright stars in that area, but that is not it. It is a little bitty dim smudge, I finally came to believe, quite difficult as EdZ says. This discussion is an interesting confirmation of what I thought, but was not sure of. Marks picture is not supposed to be to scale I know, but shows 7790 so large that it is misleading.
Otherwise on a good night, my 16x70, even at 60mm, reveals actual stars in ngc7789 (this still amazes me), and also in M52, in addition to the obvious bright one on the west side that even a 7x50 will show. Ron
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Mark9473
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Ron, that's not a sketch and it's not a depiction of what it looks like visually. The scale is that of Cartes du Ciel's catalog parameters. I see an irregular smudge; it's elongated - could this be due to its close neighbours Berk 58 and NGC7788? If the sky clears in the next New Moon period, I'll attempt a sketch.
-------------------- Mark
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EdZ
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Quote:
Ron, that's not a sketch and it's not a depiction of what it looks like visually. The scale is that of Cartes du Ciel's catalog parameters. I see an irregular smudge; it's elongated - could this be due to its close neighbours Berk 58 and NGC7788? If the sky clears in the next New Moon period, I'll attempt a sketch.
Well, I don't think so.
Be58 Achinal and Hynes list it as 5 arcmin with a Br* of mag 15. K&S observed it with a 12" scope. I've never seen it in my 6" refractor.
NGC7788 is said to have a 9th magnitude star. The cluster is about 5 arcmin i dia, of a dozen mag9 to mag 12 stars. A&H list it as 4 arcmin. That minght be seen under mag 6.5 skies. I've never seen it.
NGC7790 is said to have 10 stars of mag 11 and mag12. 30 stars that make up the dense part of the cluster are compacted in a small 4' x 2' area. Under mag 5.5 skies, I recorded it as very small at 100x in my 6" refractor.
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EdZ
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I had a brief opportunity to observe early this morning, and the sky was very good, so I took out the WO22x70 apo to refresh myself in the area around NGC 7790.
There is a string of 5 bright stars with the two brighest east and the two dimmest but also the closet to the west. 7790 is just ne of the center star. It was seen fairly easy as a small smudge. To estimate it size, I compared it to the two close stars towards the west. It was about 1/4 the size of the distance between that pair. I measured that pair when I came in and they are 10 arcmin apart. So, I measure 7790 as 2 to 3 arcmin in diameter at 22x.
I referenced Uranometria to try and find the other two close by clusters, Be58 and 7788. Neither could be seen.
edz
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ronharper
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Thanks for the good directions and description Ed, I'll look when I get a chance. Ron
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Mark9473
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The sky finally cleared so I took a shot at sketching the area around NGC 7788 and 7790 with my 15x60 (tripod mounted).
I had difficulty seeing the 7th star of Ursa Minor, so I'd put the NELM at 5.0. I didn't do an accurate LM determination in the binoculars, but noticed I could see a bit fainter stars than the 10.0 limiting magnitude of the chart I used. Edit: the attached sketch is based on a CdC chart going a bit deeper, to mag 10.5
I really don't have any sketching skills, so what I did was print out a star chart from Cartes du Ciel, without any DSO shown, then used a pen to indicate where I saw a bit of a glow as if from unresolved stars. For the sketch shown here I loaded a JPEG out of Cartes du Ciel into MS Paint and attempted to reproduce what I saw.
-------------------- Mark
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Edited by Mark9473 (09/10/09 05:17 PM)
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Mark9473
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Here is the same area with the DSO shwn and labelled; their position and size result from the SAC 8.0 catalog I use in Cartes du Ciel.
-------------------- Mark
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Mark9473
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BTW the field shown is 2°.5 across (I'm asuming CdC means this diagonally, but I'm not sure).
-------------------- Mark
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EdZ
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well based on the info I provided from several sources earlier in this thread, I'd say SAC has got some of the sizes incorrect. FWIW, I'd trust L&S and A&H as the definitive resorces rather than SAC, who probably gets their data from NSOG, which although it can be good, has lots of incorrect data.
Some of those clusters you plotted are mag15 clusters, perhaps visible in 12" 14" scopes at 200x.
Your sketch for 7790 is more realistic than the plotted size.
edz
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Mark9473
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I'm certainly not claiming SAC is the ultimate resource, EdZ. Neither am I claiming that when I see a glow, that means I'm actually seeing a true cluster.
On the other hand, SAC says, from left to right: King 12 : mag 10.0 NGC 7788 : mag 9.4 NGC 7790 : mag 8.5 (this was certainly the brightest blob I saw) Berk 58 : mag 9.7 So I don't think you can blame me for believing I saw some of these clusters.
-------------------- Mark
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Mark9473
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Quote:
Your sketch for 7790 is more realistic than the plotted size.
I would have drawn it even smaller actually, but Paint didn't have a smaller brush...
-------------------- Mark
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Mark9473
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I have another catalog for CdC called "open clusters", which gives the attached result. The full reference of this catalog is: New catalog of optically visible open clusters and candidates Dias W.S., Alessi B.S., Moitinho A., Lepine J.R.D. <Astron. Astrophys. 389, 871 (2002)>
-------------------- Mark
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Mark9473
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At this point I'm sufficiently confident to claim that I did see NGC 7790 in my 15x60, despite what you said earlier, EdZ.
Edit: of course in my original description I had the identification wrong.
-------------------- Mark
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Edited by Mark9473 (09/10/09 05:55 PM)
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EdZ
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I would agree with 7790, as I noted it in two observations over the last two weeks with 22x85. I measured it as 2-3 arcminutes in diameter.
Skiff writes this about 7788
the cluster is nested in a group of mag.7-10 stars about 15 arcmin across. Near one of these stars is the cluster. 150mm reveals about 8 stars (Skiff observations were typically under mag 6.2 to 7.0 skies). In 250mm, 14 stars can be counted in a 1.5 arcmin area. (For comparison size, that's just a little bit bigger than the Ring nebula. At 15x, the Ring looks like a bloated star.)
So it would be reasonable to assume, at the location of 7788, you are probably seeing that group of mag.7-10 stars, and not the cluster at all.
Notes on Berkley 58
The total Vm of 9.7 is very misleading. Surface Br is mag 13.2. Skiff's notes on his observation of Be58; at low power, this group is visible as a small collection of faint stars. (Skiff's observation notes refer to a 250mm scope at 200x under mag 6.2+ skies).
edz
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EdZ
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I collect my notes here in one post from two recent observations
I had a brief opportunity to observe early this morning, and the sky was very good, so I took out the WO22x70 apo to refresh myself in the area around NGC 7790.
There is a string of 5 bright stars with the two brighest east and the two dimmest but also the closet to the west. 7790 is just ne of the center star. It was seen fairly easy as a small smudge. To estimate it size, I compared it to the two close stars towards the west. It was about 1/4 the size of the distance between that pair. I measured that pair when I came in and they are 10 arcmin apart. So, I measure 7790 as 2 to 3 arcmin in diameter at 22x.
I referenced Uranometria to try and find the other two close by clusters, Be58 and 7788. Neither could be seen.
edz
This morning, sky about mag 5.2, but very transparent. The Nikon AE 10x50 could not see deeper than mag 9.6.
Observed vicinity of NGC7790 near Beta Cas. With Nikon SE 10x42 and ZRS 10x42 could not see 7790, but could see mist of faint stars nearby this vicinity. With Nikon AE 10x50 I saw a faint small spot for 7790 and about 10-15 arcmin NW of 7790, I counted about 6 faint stars spread over a 10 arcmin area in what was that mist. Since the 10x50AE could not see any deeper than mag 9.6 on M45, then that would establish these 6 faint stars as all brighter than mag 10. In the Garrett 22x85, 7790 was a distinct spot, and that area to the NW resolved into 12-13 stars spread over a 15 arcmin area. In the BT100 at 34x, I counted 16-17 stars over the same 15 arcmin area.
That area is centered on the location of NGC7788. However, it is much too large to be 7788. It is possible that some of the stars in the center of that mix are members of 7788, but certainly not all of them. There was no concentration noticed, even in the 22x85 or the 34xBT100, that I could call cluster 7788. (I know now from Skiff's notes that 7788 is tiny, even smaller than 7790, and in all likelyhood I did not see any part of it in that area of stars.)
edz
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Mark9473
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Quote:
So it would be reasonable to assume, at the location of 7788, you are probably seeing that group of mag.7-10 stars, and not the cluster at all.
That's what I concluded yesterday also. The stars are seen individually in direct vision, then in averted vision merge together to a glow. Same for Berkely 58 especially since the location of what I plotted doesn't match exactly.
I expect to have a less ambiguous view under a better sky than yesterday's NELM 5.0.
-------------------- Mark
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EdZ
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I am curious about what it might take to see some of these others around 7790. Obviously better sky conditions would help. Well I can't do much there, although I sometimes see a best of about mag 5.6, so I can hope for a best night. But I thought next time I set out some scopes to give these a try. 80mm might not do it. But I have 85, 100, 125, 150 and 200mm scopes so plenty of choices. I'll give a turn in that direction next time I have some scopes out and see what I can find.
Also, I thought a night of concentration with the BT100 at various powers might prove successful, so that's another option.
edz
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Mark9473
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What I meant with a less ambiguous view, is that with better sky conditions I expect not to see the glow that got me thinking I was seeing a cluster in the locations of NGC 7788 and Berk 58.
If you can manage it with your BT100's, I'd be interested to see a sketch of the area.
-------------------- Mark
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Crossen
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Concerning NGC 7790, NGC 7788, and the Milky Way field around and generally west of them I quote from my original observing notes. The instrument I was using were 15x100 supergiant binoculars. The sky conditions were C+--that is, mag 6.0-6.5 at the zenith, near which the field was located:
"NGC 7790--A small patch of moderate surface brightness haze, partially resolved. The 9th mag star toward the SE of the main body is very distinct."
"NGC 7788--A ragged field concentration of mags 10-11 stars around the 9th mag central star, apparently larger than NGC 7790 to the SSE. No evidence of haze of the 12-13 mag stars crowding around the 9th mag star."
"NW of Beta Cas begins a rather broad stream of faint field stars on a pale background glow. This stream includes the line of 5 open clusters Be 58, NGC's 7790 and 7788, H21, and K12. It is fairly straight as far as 6 Cas, then arcs WNW, W, and finally SW around a distinct dark cloud. This is the ENE end of the large oval dark region to the S of the M52 Milky Way stream. A somewhat fainter star field is [within the dark region] just S of the star arc and W of NGC 7790."
NGC 7790 is very distant, almost 10,000 light-years away. It is an intermediate-age cluster with Cepheid variables. 6 Cas is the brightest member of the Cassiopeia OB 5 association, of which many of the brightest field stars in the NGC 7788-7790 must be members. NGC 7788 itself might be a member. Cas OB5 is in the foreground of NGC 7790, centered "only" about 7500 l-y away. I have never seen a really detailed photometric study of NGC 7788 (though I haven't checked the journals recently) that determines whether the cluster is really the interior knot of faint stars or the field concentration of brighter stars. In the latter case it would be simply a field concentration in Cas OB5 rather than a true gravitationally-bound cluster.
Craig Crossen
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EdZ
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Observation 9-13-09 11pm to 2am sky mag 5.2
used Oberwerk BT100 with 18mm AT Paradigm for 34x100, 1.7°fov, 2.9mm exit pupil
also used TV85 with 14mm Radian for 43x85 mono, 1.4°fov, 2mm exit pupil
Tested 33xBT100 for LM and found it could reach mag 11.4-11.5.
I spent a considerable time and created a sketch which will be added after I can scan it and convert it to jpeg. I used two measured stars that span 10 arcmin to judge comparative sizes of clusters.
edit - SKETCH ADDED
Berkley 58 - not seen, no hint of haze.
NGC 7790 - brightest star on se edge of a hazy unresolved spot. Haze bordered on nw by 4 stars curved to encircle the haze spot. No resolution within the haze. Total width no more than about 4 arcmin. (A mounted Fujinon 10x50 could see this only as a small averted hazy spot).
NGC 7788 - plotted 17 stars using 33xBT100. Fainter stars centered on a brighter asterism of 3 stars in a line with a slight bend. Uranometria shows the extent of NGC7788 spans between these 3 stars. About half of all the stars I plotted are just outside the boundaries of extent plotted in Uranometria, so all may not be a part of the true cluster. My plotted stars are scattered over about 10-12 arcmin area. Considering LM test above, I would say all of these stars are brighter than mag 11, the 3-5 brightest perhaps mag 9-10. (A mounted Fujinon 10x50 could see no more than 6 stars here across the full extent of 10 arcmin, no haze noted).
Harvard 21 - This was the faintest of the clusters seen. I suspected 4 very faint stars seen with averted vision. I could tell there was something at the spot with direct vision, but could not see anything defined directly. I plotted the 4 stars in the shape of an L, long leg ne to sw, short leg towards the east. Size, ? perhaps 1-1.5 arcmin. Estimate these 4 stars as mag 11.2 to 11.4.
King 12 - stars brighter than H21, also area a bit larger, perhaps 2 arcmin. I suspected seeing 6 stars, 2 pretty faint, 4 a bit brighter. Estm 4 stars perhaps mag 10.5 to mag 11.
A bit further out past 6 Cas I also noted
King 21 - at this spot I saw what I thought was a very tiny straight line of maybe 3 stars. No real resolution of the 3, but looked longer than just 2 stars. Perhaps mag 10.5. Less than 1 arcmin long.
The TV85 at 43x could not resolve any more stars or see any more in each of these clusters than what was seen with the BT100 at 34x. I counted exactly the same 17 stars in NGC7788 and still could not see BE58.
I did stop to take a look at M52 and NGC7789. NGC7789 was resolved to perhaps 20 stars with a broad extent of haze.
BTW, I'd like to add, out of numerous things I did in last nights observing session, observed a few galaxies, compared some limiting magnitudes, split a few doubes, searched out a few new objects, etc. this little project to critically view and sketch an area I've never mapped before was by far the most interesting and if you can believe it, the most fun. Thanks for this intersting challenge. Now I need to go read up and see if my visual descriptions match what is in the written details for these clusters.
edz
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Edited by EdZ (09/14/09 01:57 PM)
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Mark9473
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That's a very exciting and intriguing report, EdZ. I loaded a 1/2° wide DSS image into CdC, see attached. It appears to show a rather condensed cluster for NGC 7788, actually smaller than NGC 7790.
SAC 8.0 lists NGC 7788's diameter at 9'. CdC's open cluster catalog (reference see a few posts higher up in this thread) - which was more accurate on NGC 7790 - gives the diameter for NGC 7788 as 4' which appears to match the DSS image.
Of course it is impossible to know for sure, from just a chart or image, which stars are true cluster members.
-------------------- Mark
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EdZ
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I reviewed numerous sources on these clusters. here's what I found.
First, in almost every case, reading NSOG was reading a repeat of SkyAtlas 2000 data tables and in some cases, a repeat of Luginbhul and Skiff's observations. I'f you have already referenced L&S and SkyCat2000, you can pretty much dispense with NSOG. Also, Sky Atlas 2000 Companion, a listing of all the objects plotted in the SA2000 charts, was the least useful resource. Descriptions wanting, for this exercise only one object was mentioned. So dispensing with SA2000 Companion and NSOG, that left me with
Luginbhul and Skiff, Observing Handbook and Catalogue of Deep Sky Objects
Sky Catalogue 2000, Vol. 2, Double Stars, variables and Non-Stellar Objects
Archinal and Hynes, Star Clusters probably the definite resorce for my needs.
7790
L&S 8', 134*, using 150mm about a dozen * in a rectangle EW, in 250mm 25* within 4'x2', 5 brighest stars on west form a circlet. L&S has a full page 7"x10" plate of 7790 showing photometry. The densest concentration of bright stars is within about a 4' area and that area contains perhaps only a dozen stars brighter than mag13.
NSOG EW elongated mist, 10* mag 11 to 12, 30* in a 4'x2' area
A&H 5' Br* mag10.0, SfBr 12.0
7788
L&S 9' 20* nested in a group of mag 7-10 stars 15' across, 15* mostly east of a br*, in 250mm counted 14* in a 1.5' area
NSOG 9' 20*, a 5' concentration of mag 9-12 stars, mostly mag12-13
A&H 4' 20* Sb12.4
Be58
L&S 8' 39*, 35* mag 12+ in 5' area,
NSOG 7' Br* 11.9, using 12"@150x 3 dozen stars mag 12+ in 5' area
A&H 5' 39* br* 15.0, Sb13.2
H21
L&S 4' 6* in 250mm 5 mag 10* + 1 mag12.5 + 1 mag13
NSOG 6' 20* 5 mag 10* form an irregular pentagon 2.5' across
A&H 3' 6* probably not a real cluster
K12
L&S 2' 30*, using 250mm 18* in a haze within 2'x1', elongated EW
A&H 3' 15* br* mag10.0 Sb11.4
K21
L&S 2.5' 17*, 3* in center mag 11-12, 20* in 5'x2.5'
A&H 4' 20* br*mag10.0 Sb 12.6
Based on these data, I doubt I saw the central areaof 7788. I may have seen some of the very brighest stars, but A&H defines this cluster as 4 arcmin. I counted 17 stars across 11-12 arcmin, well outside the bounds. I trust the Archinal and Hynes data and the L&S observations more than any other.
Not surprised that I did not see Be58.
I do believe I saw the circlet in 7790
My location and description of H21 seems to indicate I saw the 4 of the 5 brightest.
I probaly saw just the very few brightest in the King clusters.
edz
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