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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14732
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Food for thought. For years people have been discussing binoculars and referring to that with a larger exit pupil as being brighter. Also for years, I've been saying, that's way to simplified and there is far more to determining brightness than just the size of the exit pupil.
Probably one of the most important factors is degree of illumination, how much of the exit pupil is fully illuminated by all rays on-axis and off axis. They all contribute to the total light, so they all contribute to brightness. While the best sample binocular I've ever seen is illuminated 100% across the entire exit pupil from all on/off axis rays out thru 80% of the objective, even other better binoculars show this same extent to only 40-50% and far more common are binoculars that show this extent thru only 20-35% of the objective diameter. There are also binoculars that show full illumination from only about 10-15% of the objective. Almost all roofs I've seen fall into this group.
I think this little collection of test data shows something similar to brightness. This test is comprised of a constant light source, shining thru a tube about 30 inches long, the binocular objective placed at the opposite end, room lights turned off, and the resultant reading is taken at the eyepiece with a SPER Scientific brand light meter. Meter readings are listed for each binocular. Actual measured aperture and actual measured exit pupil are listed. Each binocular was measured several times, some 4-5 times. In most cases, the readings clustered closely for a particular binocular. The best reading is listed.
I have more thoughts on this, but not enough time, so this is a short excerpt of the data set. As you can see, image brightness is far from being consistent across exit pupil sizes. One might expect as exit pupil gets larger, the lightmeter reading would move in tandem. If that held true, I thought it would also be reasonable to divide meter reading by % increase in exit pupil area to see if all factored meter readings come out the same, indicating some dependany on exit pupil area. That does not seem to be the case. All it did was move a few sampes around a little bit, but the highs stayed high and the lows stayed low. Of course, I didn't expect that to show a clear trend as there is more invloved. Perhaps what this does show is that there are far more influences on brightness than just exit pupil. I do expect that illumination and also aperture will come into play, but that will come later.
You might note some surprises about the low brightness of roof prism binoculars.
When time allows, I'll post more on the illumination of each of these binoculars. For now, just a fairly simple data set that shows some similar sized exit pupils obtain a reading as much as twice as high as some others. Not a definitive analytical result yet, but obviously there is much more involved than just exit pupil.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
Edited by EdZ (09/14/09 11:48 AM)
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BobinKy
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/27/07
Posts: 1683
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EdZ...
Very interesting. Is the last column, Meter/EP, the measure of image brightness that is received by the observer's eye pupil?
-------------------- Bob
38°N
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14732
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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No, It is simply a mathematically factored meter reading. If anything, I would expect the direct meter reading to represent brightness at the eye.
Assuming exit pupil is the only controlling factor for brightness, then I made the further assumption that the constant unchanging light source entering the objectives might show output at the meter that is either brighter or dimmer in lock-step with larger or smaller exit pupils. If that were in fact the case, then I should be able to divide the meter reading by the exit pupil and get a factored (meter reading/ep area) result for all samples that is near exactly the same across the board.
For example, say two binoculars are 10x40 and 8x40. Area of exit pupils (nominal) are 4squared and 5squared = 16 and 25, one having an increase of 25/16 = 1.56x the area over the other. And lets say the meter reads 10x42 = 125 and the 8x42 = 200. Well, we would expect the 8x40 to be have a brighter exit pupil and therefore the meter to read higher. If the higher reading is entirely due to exit pupil then we should be able to check all the results by dividing the readings by the increase in the area of exit pupil. By doing so, all values should come out equal. So here we divide 200/1.56 and get 128. If enough samples could be divided like that and have all the results come up to close to the same value, it would be a certain indicator that area of exit pupil is the only determinant of brightness.
That's not what I got. Actually, I didn't expect to get the above balanced result, but if everything were balanced on exit pupil ONLY, I'm pretty certain what I suggested above should occur.
Perhaps what this really shows, as I suggested in my first post, is that there are other factors that need to be looked at to explain differences in brightness. That should not really come as a surprise, but as far as I know, no one correlates a measure of other factors with brightness. Of course, at this point, in my brief look at the initial data, no other factors are yet taken into consideration, and that might be why it looks so out-of-balance.
Binoculars with very high percent illumination may be showing considerably higher brightness than expected. Binoculars with very low percent illumination may be showing considerably lower brightness than expected.
This table shows the same output as the first table, but also included here is the % central diamter of objective that provides 100% illumination. Not a perfect match, but certainly some correlation.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
Edited by EdZ (09/14/09 01:28 PM)
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milt
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 09/13/04
Posts: 556
Loc: Arizona
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Quote:
Assuming exit pupil is the only controlling factor for brightness
Hi Ed,
Well, I know you don't mean that.... 
Getting to the test methodology, even with a tube in front of the objective you are still going to capture significant off-axis rays. For example, assuming a 50mm objective and 30" tube of the same diameter you could capture rays up to 3.8 deg. off-axis.
So in addition to aperture and the other factors you already mentioned, field stop diameter will also figure into the total exit pupil brightness. IMO, the laser illumination tests you have done are more precise.
Most of all, it's important for folks to remember that for the majority of astronomical objects aperture dominates. The brightness of a star, planet, globular cluster, galaxy or other small DSO depends not on exit pupil diameter but on unobstructed aperture. That's why your illumination tests are so important because they reveal when the entire aperture isn't being used.
Milt
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14732
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
Quote:
Assuming exit pupil is the only controlling factor for brightness
Hi Ed,
Well, I know you don't mean that.... 
Getting to the test methodology, even with a tube in front of the objective you are still going to capture significant off-axis rays. For example, assuming a 50mm objective and 30" tube of the same diameter you could capture rays up to 3.8 deg. off-axis.
So in addition to aperture and the other factors you already mentioned, field stop diameter will also figure into the total exit pupil brightness. IMO, the laser illumination tests you have done are more precise.
Most of all, it's important for folks to remember that for the majority of astronomical objects aperture dominates. The brightness of a star, planet, globular cluster, galaxy or other small DSO depends not on exit pupil diameter but on unobstructed aperture. That's why your illumination tests are so important because they reveal when the entire aperture isn't being used.
Milt
Well first, a better choice of words might have been, "If one were to assume exit pupil is the only controlling factor, which we know it isn't, ..." Sometimes, setting a false assumption allows one to see the implications (or lack of) in the results.
The laser illumination test is how I got to the values for 100% illum. Of course the data from those laser tests goes well beyond just that one value. I agree, it is valuable. That does tell me when there is a lack of full illumination, but that doesn't tell me how bright the exit pupil is.
Seems to me the inclusion of all rays, on and off axis, in other words all the light coming thru the tube, will mimic total light entering if the binocular were pointed out in the open in daylight. I think that would pretty closely resemble realistic use for total light in the exit pupil. In fact, the inside of the tube is white, allowing rays to bounce all over inside the tube. The only reason I'm using a tube with a light source at the end is to insure that every binocular in the test gets the exact same light. BTW, the light meter reading outside the tube is always about 2 or 3 or 4, so the only light in each binocular in the test is the tube light.
I hadn't thought about field stop being a factor. I'm still trying to figure out what all has implications and by how much, so I'll consider that too. For instance, transmission has an affect, as well as aperture.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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GlennLeDrew
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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I'd like to see the specifics regarding the metering instrument. I suspect there is some overloked detail that is causing these very discrepant values. Some factors which can have an impact:
- Whether the meter is designed to accept light from a wide range of angles, or employs optics to image a fixed angular field. - The size of the sensor, if it's un-lensed and itself is placed at the exit pupil. For example, is it larger than the largest exit pupils you test, or somwehere in between largest/smallest, or smaller than approx. 2mm? - The size of the imaging aperture, if optics are employed to restrict the angular field.
There are probably other concerns related to the light source/tube, but that will depend on the meter's design.
I'm planning to make my own meter for doing these kinds of tests. My preliminary criteria:
-The light source will smoothly and evenly illuminate an angle larger than the true FOV of the instrument under test. Probably 30+ degrees, to include the ultra low-power glasses. - It will employ an objective lens in order to image an angular field no larger than about 1/20 the apparent field angle (approx. 2.5 - 5 degrees, hopefully rather smaller.) This allows to sample small enough portions of the image in order to map illumination fall-of with field angle. - This lens will have an aperture smaller than the exit pupils under test. In this way I will be certain to always test *surface brightness* of the image only.
-------------------- Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
My Gallery
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14732
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Well what I can tell you is this,
the meter has a sensor diameter of 10mm, wider than any of my sources.
SPER Scientific Pocket Light Meter 840010 purchased from Edmund Scientific
It is extremely sensitive to being placed at the exact exit pupil distance and centered on the exit pupil. At this scale, slight variation will cause misreading of 20-30, 2-4mm of variation from optimum postition will cause a misreading of 100
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
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GlennLeDrew
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Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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This suggests that differing apparent FOVs will impact readings. Say we are examining two otherwise identical binos, but one has a larger AFoV. Each bino will deliver quite similar surface brightness of the view. But the meter will "see" the larger circle and integrate a larger amount of light, yielding an artifically brighter reading.
This is why I want to use an imaging objective so as to have full control over the sensor's view angle (as stated before, no larger than 5 deg., tops.)
-------------------- Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
My Gallery
Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14732
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
This suggests that differing apparent FOVs will impact readings. Say we are examining two otherwise identical binos, but one has a larger AFoV. Each bino will deliver quite similar surface brightness of the view. But the meter will "see" the larger circle and integrate a larger amount of light, yielding an artifically brighter reading.
that agrees with what Milt said up above. thanks, I had not considered that. I wonder if I can correlate that and normalize?
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
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milt
professor emeritus
   
Reged: 09/13/04
Posts: 556
Loc: Arizona
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Quote:
Each bino will deliver quite similar surface brightness of the view. But the meter will "see" the larger circle and integrate a larger amount of light, yielding an artifically brighter reading
Glenn, Ed's previous laser test predicts how fully illuminated the central part of the field will be for a given aperture, and that's more important for most objects. However, it still doesn't capture transmissivity losses like coatings and I think that's what you guys are after.
To measure relative transmissivity near field center, perhaps one could measure the exit pupil brightness of a green laser (near the peak of our eyes' sensitivity) used as a single paraxial ray. This would even be aperture independent, but a filter might be required to prevent saturating the meter. In any case I predict those stylish green coatings wouldn't do so well.
Milt
Edited by milt (09/14/09 10:01 PM)
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GlennLeDrew
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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EdZ, If you can measure the AFoV to reasonable accuracy, you can calculate its solid angle (steradians) and normalize from there. But there will still be a limitation to this method, in that from the start you're integrating all light across the full field.
This can lead to what I would consider artifically-poor results for some binos. For example, if two 10X50s have the same AFoV, but one suffers worse vignetting well *off axis*, it could 'score' lower because of off-axis light loss even though it MAY have a somewhat brighter on-axis view (better coatings, more of the objective aperture being used, etc., etc.)
Personally, I can tolerate lots of illumination drop-off toward the field edge, especially if it's gradual. What matters most is that at least the center of the field have good illumination. Hence my reticence to rate illumination on the *integrated* light over the full field. Better to sample field brightness across tiny angles that are a significantly small fraction of the total field angle. A graph/map of light drop-off then can be constructed, much like the output of software such as NEWT (used for newtonian 'scope design.)
Because you're sampling the full field, do ensure that your illumination source be truly uniform across an angle at least as large as the true field of the instrument under test.
And there are other details which bear consideration, mainly because your light source is uncollimated:
I'll have to think this one over more carefully, but my first instinct is to suspect the fact that the optical path length between illuminator and your meter will *vary* by size of bino. Bigger binos force the exit pupil farther back, and this *could* cause a diminution in surface brightness. Again, let's put our thinking caps on with this one...
You should ensure that no significant amount of non-image-forming light is illuminating the internals outside of the image-forming train. And so you should dispense with the white-walled tube, as it makes for a most excellent out-of-field source of unwanted light splashing about inside the bino.
Because you're testing a wide range of true FOVs AND a range of apertures, you may well have to vary the size of the illuminator and/or the separation between it and the objective so as to obtain proper illumination geometry. But this is not simple, mainly because the light source lies so close to the objective and hence its edge is imaged by the bino as hugely out-of-focus. This then requires a somewhat larger-than-ideal illuminator so as to ensure that the fuzzy zone of decreased surface brightness is placed outside of the field.
The foregoing is of more importance if instrumental baffling can't do a good job of supressing internal scatter. Perhaps the setup could simply be adjusted to a point just shy of causing gross internal illumination. That is, bring the illuminator closer until a bit too much inner wall, etc., illumination occurs and then back off a bit. However, this could be rendered inadvisable IF the issue of changing optical path length is indeed significant....
The best method is to make a collimated light source. Any old refractor having an objective a tad larger than the biggest bino objectives will serve. It suffices to then place an evenly illuminated target at the position of infinity focus which covers an angle of, say, 12 degrees. It's easy to calculate its diameter from the 'scope's focal length. Because this quite angularly large target will require removing the focuser and possibly any baffle rings within the main tube, better to make a crude tube and attach the objective to it.
The advantages of a collimated light source are considerable, because you effectively have an infinitely distant target. You can then place the bino objective near to or far from the collimator, within the limits imposed by illumination geometry, of course. Up close is best at any rate.
And if you wish to control off-axis light which doesn't contribute to the image, simply place a suitably-sized circular mask against the target so that it forms an image just a little bigger than the bino's true field (the target's edge will be imaged as perfectly sharp, so it's now dead easy to tell when it's just big enough for the test.)
-------------------- Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
My Gallery
Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Personally, I can tolerate lots of illumination drop-off toward the field edge, especially if it's gradual. What matters most is that at least the center of the field have good illumination.
Quite so. This subject comes up frequently among people who design Newtonians. For any scope with a secondary mirror, there are two conflicting desires. You want to make the secondary small to minimize diffraction effects at high magnifications, but you also want to make it large to minimize vignetting the edge of your lowest-power, widest-angle field.
It's generally agreed that for visual use, a 50% light falloff at the edge of the FOV is barely detectable, and even a 70% falloff (30% throughput) is acceptable. Of course, this is a different situation. For a telescope, low power is only one of many choices, and it's not usually considered the most important -- otherwise people would use bigger secondaries.
As Glenn says, by far the most important statistic is the effective aperture at the center of the field. Then, ideally, one would like a contour map of the FOV showing precisely how the effective aperture falls off as one approaches the edge.
For a Newt, this is easy to do from first principles, because Newts have very simple geometry that can be characterized with high precision. I doubt that it would be possible to do the same with binoculars.
In theory, one could trace the rays directly by shining a laser pointer into the binocular's objective at different points and at different angles. But I estimate that it would take at least a thousand measurements to make a satisfactorily detailed map, and this is hardly practical.
Glenn's suggestion of shining a well-collimated beam into the objective at various different angles is an attractive one. Certainly worth trying.
The most direct approach would be to bring the light from the binoculars to a focus, just as the eye does, and meaasure at the focal plane. I've wondered if this could be done with a point-and-shoot digital camera.
-------------------- Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14732
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
If you can measure the AFoV to reasonable accuracy, you can calculate its solid angle (steradians) and normalize from there. But there will still be a limitation to this method, in that from the start you're integrating all light across the full field.
This can lead to what I would consider artifically-poor results for some binos. For example, if two 10X50s have the same AFoV, but one suffers worse vignetting well *off axis*, it could 'score' lower because of off-axis light loss even though it MAY have a somewhat brighter on-axis view (better coatings, more of the objective aperture being used, etc., etc.)
What matters most is that at least the center of the field have good illumination. Hence my reticence to rate illumination on the *integrated* light over the full field. Better to sample field brightness across tiny angles that are a significantly small fraction of the total field angle. A graph/map of light drop-off then can be constructed, much like the output of software such as NEWT (used for newtonian 'scope design.)
Well, I already do all the above.
I report the fov for all these binoculars. Included it here for info
I agree if one would score lower because of off-axis light loss, but that's exactly the point. the total light in the exit pupil.
I've already given the metric for center field illumination, in percent area providing 100% illumination. In fact, I've already reported previosly on mapping illumination across the exit pupil. That's not what I'm trying to show here.
RE: off axis light in the tube. But, wouldn't this mimic exactly a daylight scene with bright sky all around. If not, what's different about it? Remeber, I'm not trying to measure light at a specific point (the central 10% vs the outer 10%), Iv'e done that eslewhere. I'm purposely trying to measure all the light that can get in, and how much gets into the exit pupil.
Here's a table showing the weight of fov on the meter readings
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14732
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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and here's a table showing influence of exit pupil and FOV combined.
In these above two tables, some of the positions move but the general groupings remain about in the same locations.
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
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Steve Darden
sage
Reged: 07/29/07
Posts: 213
Loc: Woodstock, GA
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EdZ, can you go back and run these test on all the binoculars you've tested in the past.
Just kidding. 
Very interesting. Thanks for your effort.
-------------------- Orion XT10 with Moonlite focuser
Orion Starmax 127 Mak
Orion 80ed with Moonlite focuser
Too little free time
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14732
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
EdZ, can you go back and run these test on all the binoculars you've tested in the past.
Just kidding. 
Very interesting. Thanks for your effort.
I actually have run these tests on probably 30-40 binoculars. I've just never reported it like this before.
The raw data reading (maximum lux) is reported for every binoculars in my Small Binocular Series of CN Reports.
I'm still trying to figure out the best way to present it.
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
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GlennLeDrew
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Ed, Indeed, if the desire is to include ALL light emerging from the eyepiece through the exit pupil, non-image-forming included, then mimicking the effect of 'skylight' is perfectly acceptable.
However, this would be more meaningful if the meter's sensor diameter is of the same size or barely larger than that expected of the observer's iris during use. If we're talking astronomical observation, then a safe upper limit for the majority would be the usual 7mm.
If the sensor is large (you said 10mm for yours, which samples an area fully twice that of a 7mm pupil) and the exit pupil is small, then one can pick up a fair bit of extraneous light well *outside* the exit pupil. Especially bad would be to include those nasty, clipped pupil ghosts. But even internal scatter off the near-to-eyepiece prism walls which would not otherwise enter the observer's eye can be a not inconsiderable source of additional light.
Perhaps you could make a 7mm diameter mask for your meter?
Tony, Just to be clear, the method I was advocating involved a stationary, full-field illuminated target. It's not the light source which one aims into the front, but instead is the small-FOV meter which is pointed about through the exit pupil and into the field (while hopefully keeping it well centered in the exit pupil.)
Your idea of projecting the illuminated field has some merit. The most immediate benefit is the ease of seeing and sampling the part of the field desired.
There is one small fly in the ointment, however. By racking the eyepiece farther back in order to project the image at a nearer distance, the illumination characteristics will change slightly. The effect will probably be small enough to be largely ignored. But for the sake of a full understanding, I'll expand on it.
A minority of binos are barely able to fully field the on-axis light cone when at infinity focus, and as we know most actually have their apertures already reduced. By moving the eyepiece farther back, the circle of full illumination decreases because as seen from the eyepiece, the front prism aperture appears to shrink (angularly) more rapidly than does the objective aperture. If there already exists aperture restriction, then the percentage of on-axis illumination decreases still more.
The foregoing effect will be made more severe when one tries to focus the eyepiece field on an ever nearer screen, because the eyepiece is racked ever farther back.
Moreover, a flat screen is not ideal because of the cosine four law which describes illumination when a relatively small aperture images onto a large flat surface. The best bet would be to construct a narrow strip of a screen curved so that its center of curvature is located at the exit pupil. I suggest a strip instead of a circular section of a sphere because one can get by with measurements along just one diameter bisecting the field. (And it's a lot easier to make!)
But then, how to get enough signal from a necessarily dim image in projection? Better in the end to simply aim your meter (which must sample a suitably small field of its own) into the exit pupil in a controlled fashion that ensures proper sampling.
-------------------- Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
My Gallery
Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14732
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Well not to ignore latest suggestions, but the mapping of illumination by projecting a laser thru the objective is the method I documented in this forum starting back about 5-6 years ago. See the current GO-WO-Tak22x thread for a set of about 6-8 links to all of that data and discussion. There are hundreds of posts and numerous maps store both in this forum and in my gallery. But that is another topic and that is not what I've been doing here. So I'll come back to this topic.
Here, at the request from above, I've gathered data from several years of measurments. I had the raw meter readings in a table. Here it is presented in binocular sets grouped and sorted by AFOV. I wanted to see if there was any pattern that would show up giving some indication that fov might be affecting the readings. Initial glance at the sorted results seems to show no pattern related to fov.
I arbitrarily broke the groups into fov sets that do not vary by more than 3%+/- from mean. BTW,the difference in meter reading on all these from those in my posts above is simply due to a different intensity of light behind the source screen. These are all the same intensity, but unfortunately cannot be mixed with those in the posts above.
meter = light meter reading in lux (higher value set is using a 60 watt bulb, lower value set is using a "Lenser" brand 5 LED pocket light).
aperture = actual measured effective aperture
ep = actual measured exit pupil
ep area = sq mm area of exit pupil
ep area % = ep area compared to ep area minimum (used to normalize)
Afov = calculated Afov based on actual measure tfov (Afov without distortion)
full illum = % central diam of aperture providing 100% illimination to exit pupil
EP% = ep area % value from above converted to factor
M/EP = meter reading divided by EP factor, test to normalize for differences in exit pupil area
Afov% = factor for Afov divided by minimum Afov (used to normalize)
M/Afov = meter reading divided by Afov factor, test to normalize for differences in Afov
method of measurement for Lux, aperture, illumination, ep, and Afov are all explained in expanded detail in "Best Of" threads linked to Measuring and Testing Aspects of Binoculars
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
Edited by EdZ (09/18/09 06:21 AM)
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14732
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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the rest of the data set broken into groups and sorted by AFOV
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
Tony,
Just to be clear, the method I was advocating involved a stationary, full-field illuminated target. It's not the light source which one aims into the front, but instead is the small-FOV meter which is pointed about through the exit pupil and into the field (while hopefully keeping it well centered in the exit pupil.)
Your idea of projecting the illuminated field has some merit.
Actually, I wasn't thinking of doing eyepiece projection with the binoculars' own eyepiece, but rather of focusing the bino at infinity and using an auxiliary lens to focus the light from the exit pupil -- precisely mimicking the way that the lens of the human eye forms an image on the retina.
But you're right that the wide FOV creates all kinds of problems with this idea. In particular, my original thought of simply using a camera with its lens at the exit pupil won't work at all. A wide-angle camera lens uses different parts of the front objective to form different parts of the image, and an eyepiece's exit pupil won't illuminate the camera lens properly. To put it another way, the camera will introduce additional vignetting that will completely ruin the experiment.
But your idea requires a light meter with a very narrow FOV, yet one that's wide enough to accept the entire 7-mm exit pupil of typical binoculars. Basically, this is going to come down to the same thing as my solution -- you're going to need a lens to bring the light to focus on the sensor. But now, instead of trying to capture the image as a whole, you'll tilt the lens to sample different parts of the image.
All of this is confounded by the fact that in real life, the exit pupil is somewhat of a legal fiction. The light cylinders from an eyepiece -- especially a wide-field eyepiece -- never converge on a neat circle in one plane, as shown in textbooks. A real-life exit pupil is a messy, three-dimensional affair.
-------------------- Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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GlennLeDrew
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Ed, In your previous two tables, the columns "EP area %" and rightward--with the obvious exception of "Afov"--will need some explanation of units/meaning so that I can absorb all this data! Thanks.
After further reflection, I'm now realizing that for this kind of testing it's *not* necessary to have a collimated light source if some out-of-field, non-image-forming light is tolerable. And because the source is diffuse, its *surface* brightness will not change with distance, meaning that it's not necessary to maintain a fixed target-to-objective distance.
Those elements to pay closest attention to are: - That the target be as evenly illuminated as possible. The more evenly illuminated, the closer you can place it to the objective. (Distances of about one foot or more will nicely de-focus and blur out small-scale variations.) - That the target be sized so as to accommodate both the largest TFoV and objective diameter that you'll test. - That your meter have constant sensitivity across its full surface, and not posess a central zone of higher sensitivity, etc., etc. - That you place the detector exactly at the exit pupil. The plane of sharpest focus is best, but be aware that this may not actually be the image of the objective's aperture. If a prism aperture (usually the front) is restricting the system aperture, it will form its own sharply-imaged pupil a small distance *behind* the focused image of the objective. But in the main, the best approach is to sharply image on the detector whatever aperture is making the pupil. If the detector is out-of-plane, the blurred, illuminated circle will likely exhibit different illumination characteristics.
To reiterate and encapsulate, the method of measuring brightness via the full exit pupil diameter requires compensating for a couple of variables, and normalizing. This is because of the use of a fixed surface brightness target filling the full field. The metered reading depends on: - AFoV. Larger apparent fields present a larger illuminated circle and hence a larger solid angle *on the sphere*. To compensate, you must calculate for *steradians*, and not treat the illuminated field as a plane. In other words, area in this instance does not scale as "pi are squared", particularly when field angles are rather larger than, say, 30 degrees. - Exit pupil diameter. A larger pupil illminates more of the detector's surface. If the detector posesses constant sensitivity across its face/aperture, normalize as usual based on illuminated surface area.
Tony, After some thought and initial experimenting, I'm now leaning toward the notion of dispensing with an imaging objective lens in my (hopefully) soon-to-be narrow-field meter. I did some testing with a suitably small-aperture lens having a focal length long enough to sample a field of about 2 degrees on my Sperry light meter's 4mm square sensor. The efficiency is awfully low, and my light source would have to be *excessively* bright.
Alternatives? I have another ready-made meter which uses a quite small, 1mm square sensor of high sensitivity... my SQM. And I need not bother with an objective lens. A simple aperture of, say, 2mm diameter placed 100mm ahead of the detector will sample an angle of only about 1 degree (with the attendant 'Gaussian-like' bleed-over because of the non-sharp pinhole camera effect.)
I can make a narrow cylinder or slim cone four inches long to attach to the SQM. The 2mm hole up front is then placed at the exit pupil and readings taken over a range of angles through the eyepiece's FOV as the gadget is swung about its nodal point located at the 'pinhole'. With respect to the exit pupil diameter, I suppose both sub- and full-diameter holes could be employed. It would at least be interesting to see how edge-of-pupil illumination factors into things.
And you're certainly correct regarding the 'legal fiction' of the exit pupil. (The most well-known defect being spherical aberration of the exit pupil, which can result in the so-called 'kidney bean' effect.) All one has to do is examine the pupil over a range of angles and observe how its shape changes, particularly as the sight line approaches the AFoV's semi-angle. I suppose one could say that there are as many exit pupils as there are resolvable image points.
-------------------- Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
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EdZ
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column heading description added to posts with tables
edz
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GlennLeDrew
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Thanks Ed! I just glanced over the heading descriptors for a moment, and they seem to be just what I needed. One point possibly worth considering: The AFoV as calculated from the measured TFoV is not necessarily representative of the real AFoV. As apparent field gets larger the error tends to grow, and at any rate unless the distortion characteristics are well known it's best to measure AFoV directly. Getting to within 1/2 degree is not difficult.
-------------------- Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
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EdZ
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Agreed it doesn't give an indication of degree of distortion, but I really don't anticipate that will turn out to be a significant factor in the scheme of things. Typically, it's on the order of 3-5%, and in probably every case in these binoculars (all have pincushion, none barrel), in the same direction. FWIW, I'm not sure I see that Afov is having much affect on these outcomes anyway. Normalizing by Afov factor didn't give me any results that I would have expected.
edz
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EdZ
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Somewhere upabove the suggestion was made that this test might be strongly influenced by Afov of the eyepiece. As always I look for correlations that would show that in the output data. As of yet, I'm just not seeing it.
I took a look at my complete data set. I found
from the best 9 readings
5 of the very best readings are in binoculars with Afov ~50°-52°
4 of the very best readings are in binoculars with Afov 64°-70°
from the worst 8 readings
3 of the very worst readings are in binoculars with Afov ~48°-54°
5 of the very worst readings are in binoculars with Afov 58°-62°
Not sure I would consider that a strong correlation with Afov.
edz
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DaveL
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Hi all,
This is my first post on these forums. I've been reading these forums for a while and I want to thank you all for making such an incredible resource. I've learned so much reading these forums, particularly from EdZ.
I'm posting because I did some analysis of EdZ's light meter data which is posted a few threads up. I was motivated by the fact that there are multiple factors determining brightness so it can be difficult to sort out which factors are important and which are not. For example, AFov was argued above as being important, but it is difficult to decide from the data if it actually is important because variations in exit pupil size, for example, may be interfering.
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Attached are four scatter plots that help sort out the relevant factors:
1) Each point in each plot represents one of 36 binoculars. The y-axis in all four plots is the light meter reading. The x-axis in plot #1 is the exit pupil area in mm squared ( = pi * (diameter/2)^2 ). Disregarding the colors for the moment, we see there is a positive relationship between brightness and large exit pupils, but there is a large amount of deviation from the linear least squares fit (black line), particularly at small exit pupil's. Now looking at the colors, which show the AFov, we see that all the binoculars that deviate significantly above the line have fields of view of greater than 57 degrees. Similarly, the number of binoculars with small fields of view (< 58) under the line outnumber the binoculars with large fields under the line (although there is still quite a bit of "noise" at small exit pupils). (Some dots are unfortunately hidden by others.)
2) In the second plot the x-axis is now the product of exit pupil area and Afov area (steradians). The AFov in steradians is given by 2*pi*(1-cos(A/2)), where A is the traditional AFov specification given in degrees. The linear fit improves significantly although there are one or two big outliers (Zen Ray ZEN ED2 8x43 & Oberwerk 8x42). If one just looks at the porro prism binoculars (blue dots) then one gets the impression that the relationship is quite strong. For all binoculars the correlation increases from 0.67 in plot #1 to 0.83 in plot #2 (see top right corner). In summary, when we also include the effect of exit pupil, we see that AFov is adding important information about the light meter measurement.
We could have also performed multi-linear regression with two predictors (Exit pupil (EP) and AFov) instead of single-variable regression with just their product. We choose the product because it provides a slightly better fit to the data. The product also makes physical sense. For example, consider the hypothetical situation of a fully illuminated exit pupil. In this case the total illumination is the sum of exit-pupil-sized light beams added up over all directions in the field. This integral is simply the exit pupil times the AFov area in steradians.
(Note: the AFov given in steradians is hardly different that the AFov given in square degrees (= pi*(A/2)^2 ) for the range of A present in this sample. Only large A cause the two to differ significantly.)
3) It is quite obvious the roof prisms tend to be below the line in plot #2 and vice versa for the porro prisms. Hence in plot #3 I created a new binary predictor variable which is one if the binocular is a roof prism and zero otherwise. Using both EP * AFov (* == multiplication) and this "roof prism variable" (called RP from now on) in multi-linear regression leads to an improved fit. The correlation is now 0.92. The x-axis is now a combination of EP*AFov and RP scaled by the constants determined from the linear regression. The coefficients in the linear fit are given below the x-axis. The black line is the line y = x.
4) The next best predictor after EP*AFov and RP is another sort of "derived" predictor I came up with which is EP*AFov*(the fraction of AFOV fully illuminated). Hence, the x-axis in Plot #4 is the three predictors scaled by the coefficients from the linear regression. This new predictor, however, only adds a small amount of increased skill. For the analysis since plot #2, I've been using a technique called cross validation, whereby I remove a binocular from the analysis and perform the fit on the remaining binoculars. Removing a binocular from the analysis allows me to test the fit from the other binoculars on this "independent" data point. I give each binocular a chance to be removed from the analysis. This cross validation analysis suggests that the three predictors added here have real skill in predicting independent data, but no other predictors add additional skill beyond the three given here. (Note: I've also been systematically adding the best predictor at each step from plot #2 to plot #4.) Other predictors I tried include EP, AFov and Illumination each by itself. This doesn't necessarily mean that EP, for example, doesn't have any skill. It just means that it doesn't add any additional information beyond the predictors I did use. Also there could be a function of the three variables that I did not consider here that is better than the different functions I tried here. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-validation_(statistics) for more info on cross validation)
The coefficients in front of the predictors change slightly from plot #3 to plot #4. The coefficient in front of the RP (plot #4) means that on average a roof prism leads to a 148 reduction in the light meter reading compared to an equivalent porro. I'm not sure what to make of this because one would think that the illumination measurement would take into account the difference between roof and porro prisms. This might be because I haven't come up with the best way to utilize EdZ's illumination measurement data. Basically the problem hinges on transferring EdZ's measurement to an estimate of illumination as a function of off axis angle for the entire AFov. With this info, you then basically sum up the exit pupil size times the fraction of illumination over the field of view (using spherical coordinates):
Brightness = integral_from_0_to_A/2_of { 2*pi*E*I(a)*sin(a) } da ,
where a is the angle from the on-axis direction, E is the exit pupil area, I(a) is the illumination as a function of a. The sin(a) is there because we are in spherical coordinates. The above assumes everything is symmetric in the azimuthal direction, but if one has the illumination everywhere then you can easily generalize the above integral. I believe EdZ has more illumination data besides the percent fully illuminated that I think will help constrain I(a) significantly. I just haven't taken the time yet to do this yet.
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So in summary it appears that both exit pupil and AFov of view are important. They both enter into the relationships described in plots #2 - #4 in the same way (i.e. the brightness is proportional to Exit Pupil * AFov ). Exit pupil seems more important only because the range of exit pupil areas varies by a factor of 3.2 while the range of AFov varies by a factor of 2.4 across the sample of binoculars measured by EdZ. Another contributing factor to the difficulty of seeing the AFov relationship is the fact that very large exit pupil binoculars almost always have small AFov. Hence an entire class of small AFov binoculars are also exceedingly bright not dim.
Another point to remember is that for the brightness of the IMAGE instead of the brightness of the entire FIELD, exit pupil matters while AFov does not.
The role of AFov in these measurements can be seen by considering the Fujinon FMT-SX 10x50. The Fujinon is the purple dot in plot #1 which is way above the "expected" brightness suggested by the linear fit to all binoculars. When we consider the fact that the Fujinon as a large AFov (plots #2 - #4), however, the Fujinon is not drastically brighter than the other binoculars. For example, in plot #2 the Fujinon (which is the dot closest to the 1000 light meter reading) is only about 60 to 70 units above the linear fit to all the other binoculars.
One disturbing thing about the linear fits is that the intercept is significantly larger than zero. For example, the intercept for the fit in plot #3 is 427. This says that as the exit pupil or Afov go to zero there is still 427 units of brightness (for a porro prism), which is obviously wrong. The intercept gets close to zero if I raise the EP*Afov to a power approaching 1/2 or square root and then perform the linear regression (the goodness of fit stays more or less the same, too!). But this doesn't make sense to me because the brightness should scale with the area of the exit pupil or AFov not the linear dimension.
That's all my thoughts for now.
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My thanks go to EdZ for sharing his measurements with us. There is nothing on the Internet or anywhere else that compares with his measurements and reviews. Thanks!
-Dave
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EdZ
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frustrating morning. Twice I posted several paragraph replies to this and my line dropped my connection, only to lose "twice" everthing I typed.
I'd like to express my sincere thanks for this analysis.
As you've pointed out, EP may have greater influence, and I would like to develop a simple weight to each of the variables.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
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Edited by EdZ (10/04/09 06:16 AM)
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Jay_Bird
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Very impressed by your effort with plots and correlations Dave. Since you seem to be in the know statistically, and we are trying to determine the weight that each of several binocular specification variables brings to a single illumination measurement, can you comment on this thought: maybe "principal components analysis" can help (e.g. it might show that most of the variance in Ed's data set is explained by a new variable computed as 60%_______ and 40% the square of _______) and perhaps such conclusions tested by "discriminant analysis". I am reaching pretty far back to remember these...
-------------------- 'these things stand like stone - kindness in another's troubles, courage in your own' Gordon
C-8, Nighthawk, C-90; Binoculars 6-11x21-80mm; Paragon p-mount
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DaveL
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Hi Jay,
You could apply a principal component analysis (PCA) to the predictor variables before you do the linear regression. In this case the principal components would be the predictors. This "pre-filtering" of the predictors before the regression analysis is done when there are a large number of predictors that are highly correlated with each other. The pre-filtering makes the regression coefficients coming out the linear regression more robust. I don't think the pre-filtering is necessary in this case.
I actually had to look up discriminant analysis on wikipedia. It looks like discriminant analysis is similar to regression analysis. but that in regression analysis the dependent variable is a numerical quantity (light meter measurement in lux in this case) whereas in discriminant analysis it is a categorical variable (i.e. a class label).
The amount of variance explained by each combination (or in some case just the single predictor variable) can be found by just squaring the correlation coefficient. Here are the amount of explained variance for the combination of variables in each plot (numbers deviate from the square of the correlation given on the plots because of round off error): Plot #1: 45.2% Plot #2: 68.5% Plot #3: 85.4% Plot #4: 86.1%
So according to this analysis the best predictor is (see bottom of plot #4): 424 + 22*EP*AFov - 148*RP + 8*EP*AFov*Ill, where EP = Exit Pupil Area in square mm AFov = AFov Area in steradians RP = roof prism variable (1 if binocular is roof, 0 otherwise) (i.e. subtract 148 if the binocular is a roof prism) Ill = Percent Fully Illuminated as a FRACTION not percent.
Ideally, we should come up with a physically based predictor which we feed to the linear regression analysis (along with some other potential predictors), which then confirms that indeed this is the best predictor. The predictor EP_Area * AFov_Area used for plots #2-4 is such a variable I think, because it is the total amount of light entering the exit pupil (at least for a hypothetical binocular with a totally illuminated Fov). The next step is to incorporate EdZ's illumination data into a physically based predictor which is more general than EP_Area * AFov_Area. The biggest problem for my analysis, I think, is not that I didn't explain more variance, but that the intercept from the linear regression is significantly different than zero (plus or minus 30 or so would be acceptable, but the actual intercept is over 400 for plot #3 and 4 and it is 280 for plot #2). One would think that by using a physically based predictor, the model would say that for EP = 0 or Afov = 0 the light throughput is zero, but it doesn't.
-Dave
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Jay_Bird
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 Would a transform of any of the data (log, sq root, square) before the regression analysis result in a lower intercept, Dave?
I guess I am thinking of similarities between this and the binocular performance indices that factor in magnification and / or aperture after square or square root functions...
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DaveL
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I was thinking about the intercept last night and a very reasonable explanation is that the intercept is the ambient light surrounding the detector while the experiment is performed. One could confirm or refute this by simply putting the objective lens cap on and taking the measurement again. If this theory is correct, then this new, "background" measurement should be close to the intercept I am getting from the analysis. I suppose it's also possible for the ambient light to depend on the size of the binocular in front of the detector. If this is the case then one should take a background measurement for each binocular and subtract the background from the full measurement.
Jay: Thanks, I have to think about transforming the data some more. My first reaction is that the light throughput should be proportional to the indices given above and that other binocular indices that have been developed are also factoring in another detector: the human eye. ???
-Dave
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EdZ
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the background measure in every case is less than 10 Lux.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
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DaveL
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Thanks EdZ! Well that rules out that hypothesis.
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GlennLeDrew
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Is it possible that the meter has a sensitivity which varies with angle of incidence? This could be tested for by placing a circular mask a small distance in front of the detector. The mask's aperture should be no larger than about 70% of the detector's smallest dimension if measurements to as far as 45 degres off-axis are to be made.
The light source should be small, and set a fairly large distance from the detector. In this way the mask will form a sharp-edged disk of light. And it goes without saying that all extraneous light should be blocked.
When tilting the detector, the mask must necessarily be re-positioned so that the spot of light is reasonably well centered on the detector. And it doesn't matter that the spot's footprint become increasingly elliptical at larger tilts; inded this is necesary as we are concerned with total flux and any variance from this as photons strike the detector at various angles of incidence.
Another almost certain source of scatter... the AFoVs are not ncessarily as specified by the manufacturer or as calculated from magnification and TFoV. I maintain that it's wise to measure AFoV one's self, for even small errors in diameter make for not insignificant errors in the solid angle.
-------------------- Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
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DaveL
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I've been reading up a little on light meters and it looks like some light meters have a feature called "cosine correction". This feature corrects for the fact that since lux is a measure of power per area, the lux incident on the meter changes as the angle of incidence changes. For a given light beam, the largest reading for a meter without cosine correction is for normal incidence and it decreases from the normal direction like the cosine of the angle from normal. This is because, as Glenn mentioned above, the spot of light's footprint increases at larger tilts from axis.
It looks like the SGER 840006,20,21 and 22 meters have cosine correction, but the SGER 840010 web page makes no mention of cosine correction. The SGER 840010 is EdZ's meter. If it is true that the there is no cosine correction, then the off axis light is underestimated by a factor of the cosine of the angle from off axis.
When I go through the numbers on the measured brightness, however, it looks like this new cosine effect has only a small difference on the results. A meter WITH cosine correction measures a brightness proportional to:
integral_from_0_to_A/2_of { 2*pi*E*sin(a) da } = E * (2*pi*(1-cos(A/2)))
where a is the angle from the on-axis direction, E is the exit pupil area and A is the apparent field of view in the standard plane angle form. A meter WITHOUT cosine correction measures a brightness proportional to:
integral_from_0_to_A/2_of { 2*pi*E*cos(a)*sin(a) da } = E * (0.5*pi*(1-cos(A)))
(The formulas above assume a fully illuminated field of view.) The formulas above look different, but they are actually not that different for the range of apparent fields of view here. For the Fujinon 10x50, which has the largest AFov, the second formula is about 9% smaller than the first. Moreover, if I use the second formula in my analysis, the difference in scatter is negligible (percent explained variance in plot #4 goes from 86.08% to 86.02%) and the intercept is practically unchanged too.
-Dave
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GlennLeDrew
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Dave. It's so nice to have a 'mathematician' wading in here! In my previous post I mentioned also the considerable possibility that apparent field is not necessarily correct. The simple formulas for deriving AFoV from TFoV and magnification do not take into account eyepiece distortion characteristics, departures from nominal for magnification and even plain old manufacturer 'fudging' of the numbers.
It would be interesting to determine the bounding box outside of which AFoV errors introduce significant differences in light flux at the meter.
-------------------- Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
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DaveL
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Glenn,
Suppose two binoculars have identical TFov, magnification and exit pupil, but one has a larger AFov due to more distortion. Since the amount of light leaving the exit pupil is the same, the one with larger AFov has a slightly dimmer appearing field at the periphery because the light has been slightly "diluted" by the distortion. Am I understanding this correctly? So the distortion adds another factor in the above integrals which either decreases or increases the expected light output depending on the "sign" of the distortion.
-Dave
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GlennLeDrew
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Dave, Your reasoning seems to be correct when dealing with distortion in isolation. The question then becomes, how to quantify the distortion in a simple way when we end users don't know a priori what it is. I suppose a value could be derived by noting the difference between the *measured* AFoV and that calculated from, e.g., [AFoV = TFoV * magnification].
It's becoming increasingly clear that accounting for all the variables which rear their heads when attempting to measure the integrated illumination across the whole field at a stroke makes for a head-scratchingly complicated exercise. 
My own almost instinctive approach is to use a narrow-field meter to sample surface brightness at various points and then construct a graph. A suitable 'spot size' would be about 2 degrees, although 1 degree would allow to better characterize aggressive vignetting sometimes encountered near the field edge.
As I've alluded to previously, my reasons for such an approach:
1) To account for the fact that the user sees an extended *image* which universally exhibits an instrumental, systematically varying surface brightness (due to vignetting, varying efficiency of transmission at different angles of incidence/emergence, etc.). It can be said that for every point in the image there exists a unique exit pupil, and what we call 'the' exit pupil is the summation of the bunch.
2) To more fairly treat binoculars which have good illumination where it really counts; in the field center. For example, an instrument which delivers good central illumination can have its 'score' unrealistically lowered because of poorer edge-of-field illumination. (Recall that even a fairly narrow annulus at the edge of a circle--the field of view here--occupies a not inconsiderable fraction of the circle's area.) A quite narrow but more rapid fall-off in field brightness at the edge can have inflated consequences out of proportion to the real injury done.
Both of these reasons are very closely related, of course. I feel that just one measure of light throughput is not just incomplete; it can lead to some confusion, if not a wrong conclusion. After all, look at the wrangling we've managed so far!
-------------------- Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
My Gallery
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DaveL
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Glenn,
Nice post. I agree that illumination at the center is where it really counts. This is part of the reason I analyzed the data--it just didn't make sense that some of the binoculars with 5mm exit pupils were getting almost the same amount of brightness as the 7mm binoculars. I think we can now confidently say that the AFov is affecting the results just as you and Milt first pointed out.
It looks like you can buy spot meters with a 1 degree spot size online, but the area of the detector is probably bigger than most/all binocular exit pupils. If a "good" spot meter existed, then it would be VERY interesting to do the test you described.
About distortion, AFov and EdZ's experiment: I may be wrong, but it seems that the AFov estimated from TFov*magnification is better than knowing the true AFov, at least for understanding the results of EdZ's experiment. For example, if the True AFov is "too large" because of distortion then the light is also more "diluted" and vice versa. I think these two effects cancel exactly for the total light throughput and one would therefore get the same answer if one used AFov = TFov*magnification and neglected distortion. (This is all assuming the detector is cosine corrected.)
-Dave
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GlennLeDrew
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Dave, I'm rather more inspired now to make a spot meter of sorts. I have an original model Sky Quality Meter (SQM). It has a sensor about 1mm square which has a tiny hemispherical lens attached directly. I've already done one quick 'n dirty experiment by kluging up a 'conical' attachment having an approximately 2mm diameter hole at the narrow end, yielding an FOV of perhaps 2 degrees.
The purpose initially was to ensure that enough light was getting to the sensor from this new, very much smaller-than-80 degree field the SQM normally takes in. It does, without having to employ a dazzlingly bright light source.
As is, the 'pinhole' aperture necessarily results in a fuzzy, pseudo-Gaussian sampling area, but even so, it's sufficiently narrow as to allow reasonably decent, first order results, methinks. And having the aperture fixed with respect to the SQM, I'll always be measuring light striking the detector from a fixed direction, nominally perpendicular.
The SQM reports measurements to 0.01 magnitude, and I'm confident that its repeatibility is to 0.02-0.03 magnitude, or 2-3%. That should allow pretty fine mapping of illumination fall-off for binoculars, where edge-of-field lighting is often down to the 50% level (a decrease of 0.75 magnitude).
I should further investigate ways to refine the sampling area's characteristics. An imaging objective placed at the aperture and set to infinity focus will eliminate the Gaussian-like sampling spot, which will now be square and of angular size determined by the lens focal length and detector width. If I can root out a lens of diameter several millimeters (which I'll mask appropriately based on exit pupil diameter) and focal length about 100mm, I will have a 1-degree class spot meter.
-------------------- Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
My Gallery
Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.
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Mark9473
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 3216
Loc: 51°N 4°E
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Quote:
Suppose two binoculars have identical TFov, magnification and exit pupil, but one has a larger AFov due to more distortion. Since the amount of light leaving the exit pupil is the same, the one with larger AFov has a slightly dimmer appearing field at the periphery because the light has been slightly "diluted" by the distortion.
My Orion Mini Giant 15x63 and Docter Nobilem 15x60 both have a 4.1° TFOV (verified on the sky). The Orion has a large geometrical distortion at the edges resulting in it having a noticeably smaller AFOV, yet its image is also noticeably dimmer, compared to the Nobilem.
-------------------- Mark
Leica 8x20; Vixen 8x42; Swift 8.5x44, 10x50 and 20x80; TS 7x50; Orion 15x63; Docter 15x60
WO Megrez II 80 FD + Baader 90° T2 Amici
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 14732
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
2) To more fairly treat binoculars which have good illumination where it really counts; in the field center. For example, an instrument which delivers good central illumination can have its 'score' unrealistically lowered because of poorer edge-of-field illumination. (Recall that even a fairly narrow annulus at the edge of a circle--the field of view here--occupies a not inconsiderable fraction of the circle's area.) A quite narrow but more rapid fall-off in field brightness at the edge can have inflated consequences out of proportion to the real injury done.
Quote:
Glenn,
Nice post. I agree that illumination at the center is where it really counts. This is part of the reason I analyzed the data--it just didn't make sense that some of the binoculars with 5mm exit pupils were getting almost the same amount of brightness as the 7mm binoculars. I think we can now confidently say that the AFov is affecting the results just as you and Milt first pointed out.
-Dave
Keep in mind gentlemen, I measure for the width of central area that is 100% illuminated by another test and therefore binoculars that have a wider central area of full illumination score higher in that test.
This was exactly the basis of reasoning that influenced this test with the light meter. I had been measuring for years (with a target laser) that some binoculars had a much wider central area of 100% illumination. I suspected that would have an overall affect on the total illumination and that perhaps, all else equal, one binocular with a 40% diameter central area of full illumination (the Fujinon 10x50) should have a far greater total illumination than another binocular with only a 10% diameter central area of full illuimination.
See the 22x85,22x70,22x60 thread for this discussion in detail
I've stated before (and we discussed it in that thread) that the total illumination is the sum of the integrated illumination from the central area at 100% plus the rings each at progressively lesser illumination all the way out to the edge.
for example, total illumination is the sum of the
area of 40% central diameter x 100% illumination
area of the ring from 50% to 60% diameter x 90% illumination
area of the ring from 60% to 70% diameter x 80% illumination
area of the ring from 70% to 80% diameter x 70% illumination
area of the ring from 80% to 90% diameter x 60% illumination
area of the ring from 90% to 100% diameter x 50% illumination
essentially this is manually integrating the illumination. You could do this by calculus if you knew how, but I forgot how to do that 30 years ago.
Problem with this method is that it gives a result which is the percent of maximum potential illumination for that one binocular only. It doesn't compare one binocular to another.
So, I'll repeat, diameter of central area of 100% illumination is already accounted for elsewhere. I measure that with my target laser test, a test in which I map the illumination. And in fact, full illum % is listed above in my tables as one of my suspected variables. I have always suspected it as one of the most influential variables. But so far I have failed to prove it.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Tony Flanders
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 3469
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
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Quote:
I'm rather more inspired now to make a spot meter of sorts. I have an original model Sky Quality Meter (SQM). It has a sensor about 1mm square which has a tiny hemispherical lens attached directly. I've already done one quick 'n dirty experiment by kluging up a 'conical' attachment having an approximately 2mm diameter hole at the narrow end, yielding an FOV of perhaps 2 degrees.
Glenn, if you're measuring the light from the exit pupil directly, you shouldn't need a mask over the SQM. All you need to do is make sure that the illuminating source is hidden, and the binocular's eyepiece itself will be sufficient mask -- as long as you keep the SQM far enough away from the EP. Which, given the extreme sensitivity of an SQM, should be easy.
But do be careful to keep the SQM pointed directly toward the EP. What between reflections off the SQM's uncoated window, the fact that the sensor has a built-in lens, and the fact that the sensor isn't placed with extreme care, the directional sensitivity of an SQM is extremely strange and hard to characterize. (I'm speaking from experience, of course.)
-------------------- Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
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DaveL
member
Reged: 09/30/09
Posts: 12
Loc: WI, USA
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Hi EdZ,
Do you have the illumination measurements at the field edge for all the binoculars above? I can try the integration (or even the summing you did which is probably good enough) and see if the formula that results is indeed the best predictor. Hopefully it will also eliminate the dependence on the roof prism variable.
-Dave
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DaveL
member
Reged: 09/30/09
Posts: 12
Loc: WI, USA
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Glenn, Sounds Promising!!
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GlennLeDrew
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 06/18/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Tony, I know exactly what you mean regarding the SQM. I've had mine apart already in order to see how it's constructed. Your simplification of the technique in using the SQM 'as-is' does have some merit. I'll give it a try and see how easy (or difficult) it is to maintain distance and alignment w.r.t. the exit pupil.
-------------------- Home-made 11X50 right angle bino, 8.1 deg. FOV
Modified 26X100 bino, 3.5 deg. FOV
Home-made Mk II RA bino, using interchangeable objectives and eyepieces
My Gallery
Mediocre minds discuss people. Good minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.
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