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Ortensio
member
Reged: 11/02/09
Posts: 57
Loc: Lat: 36.128 Lon: -5.454
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Hello, I have being following this board for a while and trying to learn as much as possible before purchasing Astronomical Binoculars. I have got 20-90x65 cheap chinese binos and, despite of the unuseful zoom, I get amazed when watching through them into my mid-polluted city's sky. Now I have the possibility to purchase an old used 150mm Fujinos. Owner says they are marine binoculars and they have been fully refurbished, etc, etc. He are asking for about 1700$. I am attaching actual picture so you will be able to tell me whether these binos really worth:
 Regards.
-------------------- -GO 28x110 + S5000 tripod.
-Galileo zoom 20-90(lol)x65.
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GaryHeath
super member
Reged: 08/13/09
Posts: 153
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Although I could not quote you an exact value, IMO: If as advertised (optics are as good as the cosmetics appear and seller states) then yes .... that is a good priced for these binos, and if I knew were they were I would pay that in a heartbeat.  Best regards,
Gary
-------------------- For equipment see: My Gallery
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KennyJ
   
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 13714
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Welcome Ortensio !
That quoted price of $1700 seems remarkable LOW for such an instrument .
My hunch is that it will probably provide superior views to a 20 - 90 x 65 Chinese zoom model , and especially if it was CHEAP ! :-)
Please keep in mind the sheer WEIGHT and SIZE of these !!
You are going to have to build or buy something SERIOUS on which to mount it !
Good luck !
Kenny
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Ortensio
member
Reged: 11/02/09
Posts: 57
Loc: Lat: 36.128 Lon: -5.454
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Thank you for your replies.
I was searching a bit and found these binos are quite old, they were built in the 50s, so are them comparable to "modern" 150mm Fujinos? (optic quality, coatings..)
-------------------- -GO 28x110 + S5000 tripod.
-Galileo zoom 20-90(lol)x65.
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edwincjones
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 5959
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What is the weight?
Some of the old marine fujis are VERY heavy and my need a stronger mount (which may cost more than the binoculars).
edj
--------------------
n w arkansas
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GaryHeath
super member
Reged: 08/13/09
Posts: 153
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I can't speak to comparative optical quality, but if the coatings are the original type (or even present) then they will not likely be as good as the newer ones, and I have no idea what Fujinon would charge to strip and re-coat them with current coatings .... assuming they can/will.
If serious about them, contact/email the picture to Baker Marine to see if they can provide any more 'hard fact' info on these (value, weight, optic's and etc.)
Their email link can be found here:
http://www.bakermarineusa.com/index.php?id=19
You may have a Fujinon service shop closer, that you would prefer to ask, or get a second opinion from.
Once again, if as advertised I'd pay the asking price no problem ..... even if that are a tad on the "fatty" side of the scale.
So if you pass, and they are in the Americas please PM me with the contact info.
Best regards,
Gary
-------------------- For equipment see: My Gallery
Edited by GaryHeath (11/02/09 07:56 PM)
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RichD
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 760
Loc: Derbyshire, UK
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Is that meibo I see on the chrome plate? beautiful condition, at least externally.
1700 seems very cheap, especially after a full refurb. Did the early meibos have single Mg coatings?
-------------------- Clear skies
Rich
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GaryHeath
super member
Reged: 08/13/09
Posts: 153
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By way of value, here is a set (actually listed as 3 available) of Meibo 15X80's on ebay UK:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fuji-Meibo-Japanese-Naval-Binoculars-with-Tripod_W0QQitemZ200394010636QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Antiques_Marine_RL
The "buy it now" of £2,995/offer is about $4,913 US as of today, so the $1700 for the 150's is kinda looking like a 'Craig's list sorta thing'. 
Exciting though ............... 
Best regards,
Gary
-------------------- For equipment see: My Gallery
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DJB
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/23/05
Posts: 1680
Loc: Lisle NY
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Hi Ortensio,
Wow! I think the price is right, from an older TV show.
Personally, I do not care for zooms. However, if the optics are clean (mechanically) and clear, I think it's a great "Deal or no Deal."
I am wondering why the cost is what it is. Umhh.
Best regards, Dave.
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Gordon Rayner
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/24/07
Posts: 1096
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I have worked in and out of the illustrated 25 x 150 model since a few months after they were introduced , in 1973, and have used them for astronomy since that time. They were designed in the early 1970's, after a request by Ben Ichiyasu (RIP), whom I met about 1973 or 1974, for something bigger than the by then well-worn WW II Japanese military 20 x 120 , 15 x 120 ( highly prized, huge eyepieces and prisms), and others, including the postwar Nikon 20 x 120, essentially the same as a WW II Nikko 20 x 120, but with MgF2 coatings, in the tuna industry. Mr. Ichiyasu learned Japanese in the US Army during WW II, according to a long-ago conversation with his son.
The precursor of Fuji Photo Optical was Enomoto Kogaku, whose wartime mark is the same as the Star of David, with E.K. inside it. There may have been a 25 x 150 from them during the war. I have never seen one, though I have seen Nikko 25 x 150, of a different design. The illustrated model may have been a rebirth, rather than a completely new design. But the preceding speculation about the 1950's is not true, to the best of my knowledge .
There were EBC multicoatings on all air-glass surfaces in the 25 x 150 , since the 1973 or 1972 start, from my observation , and from the published specifications and promotional literature of that time. I am quite familiar with the internal surfaces of early specimens. The contrary speculation is erroneous. Cleaning multilayers requires more techniques and effort than single layer MgF2. The 15 x 80 has had single layer coatings in all postwar examples I have seen . I have several Fuji Meibo 25 x 150 I, and at least three of the Fuji Meibo 15 x 80. The 15 x 80 is used by the Coast Guard. I do not know if the current production of those is multilayer coated on all surfaces, or not. They have very good images across the field, and lots of eye relief, more than the 25 x 150 eye relief. The optics of the current Fuji 25 x 150 MT-SX, are the same as the optics of the trunnion version, I was told by the company at the time the current version was introduced, in the late 1980's or about 1990, as I recall. The trunnionless current version ones I have worked upon may have had slightly different coatings than the trunnion model, as there seemed to be a slight difference in the color of the residual reflections. I wonder what changes may have been required by the silly "no lead(Pb) in glass" regulations. A Japanese designer told me that there "are problems" several years ago at the Shot Show.
The early 25 x 150 trunnion model had brass focusing rings facing aluminum male multiple threads and near to aluminum pushrings, and several other brass-to aluminum interfaces, in the IPD bearings, and at the body-trunnion junctions. The resulting galvanic corrosion with the saltwater spray electrolyte lead to lots of profitable repair work for me . I machined Delrin and Celcon isolation rings and IPD link parts at an early stage. I showed the corrosion to an Ichiyasu around 1974 or 1975, and soon thereafter some brass was replaced by aluminum ,and the IPD link pivots became stainless steel. The brass trunnions were replaced by an aluminum- SS mixed assembly, perhaps a few years later. A few pounds were eliminated by these changes. I have a box of corroded pushrings and brass trunnions ( most shipboard mounts do not use the trunnions. The binoculars rest on thick elastic cords). The Inca doorway trapezoid shaped nameplate, SS, covers an aluminum coverplate for the dessicant bag housing. The early converplate screws were brass. Galvanic corrosion between dissimilar metals in the presence of seawater spray resulted in heavy pitting of the coverplastes. The brass screws became cemented in place by the corrosion product of the aluminum, in spite of the anodization of the aluminum. I have a collection of the trapezoidal stainless steel nameplates.
Speaking of anodization, those binoculars are an example of the superiority of the chromic acid process to the sulfuric acid process, in a marine environment, as was stated in the Fuji Meibo advertising. The Japanese production engineers got that part of the marine corrosion problem right. But I am glad that they used those brass-aluminum interfaces, particularly in the bearings, as that has caused much business for me. The early brass focus mechanism-aluminum prism housing coverplate corrosion was a big hassle. I lapped two in with Clover( automotive valve) lapping compound, in Latin America, about two years ago. I had filled the gaps and holes with metal-filled epoxy resin
Others attempted to permanently seal the rings and spacers around the objective barrel, using RTV silicone rubber, in close proximity to , or possibly even simultaneously applied, grease. That attempt only resulted in lots of unneccesary trouble in cleanup before eventually inevitable re-collimation after rough handling. There are inevitable clearances in lens assemblies of reasonable cost, for thermal reasons . There is considerably inertia in those large objective lens elements, and they move, if only slightly. during bumps, after time and thermal cycling. The resulting non-parallelism of the two optical axes can be easily seen with a handheld comparator. The current 25 x 150 version has a different system, prism sliding. The problem there is obtaining sufficiently fine motion. There is a lower limit to the pitch of available small screws for a compact mechanism. Eccentric rings and barrels , though more complicated to produce and to interface to each other precisely, allow finer adjustment by the technician. The WW II Nikko 18.8 x 150 ( I have one, used by David Rotbart to co-discover a comet ( with Ludmila Pajdusakova (later Mrkosova), of Skalnate Pleso Observatory in Slovakia. She used a WW II Zeiss 25 x 100, 60 deg. inclined view), and the Nikko 22.5& 30 x 180mm. used prism plate tilting.
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Gordon Rayner
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/24/07
Posts: 1096
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?? The 25 x 150 is not a zoom.
Those eyecups are uncomfortable on most Caucasian faces, and I have never heard of any fishermen using them for long. The WW II Navy rangefinder "Lone Ranger" style two hole masks can be stretched to fit.
I made dozens of metal parts to mate those binoculars, and the current version, to my copies of the WW II Zeiss 25 x 100 headrest, which is a comfortable shape, more comfortable than the shape used with the more often seen Busch design 10 x 80, 45 deg. inclined, Flak tracking binocular used by the female Luftwaffe auxiliaries night after night.
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edwincjones
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 5959
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thank you Gordon for the information the history is great to know
edj
--------------------
n w arkansas
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edwincjones
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 5959
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what are they really worth?
As Gary has implied, they are worth it to him- as a collectable? If your intent is observing, then you must add the cost of a mount and any possible repair. So, the total cost to you remains unclear.
edj
--------------------
n w arkansas
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KennyJ
   
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 13714
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Very interesting read , Gordon .
Amongst other things , it's reassuring to learn that after all , there are such things as " reasonable coasts " ! :-)
Kenny
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Ortensio
member
Reged: 11/02/09
Posts: 57
Loc: Lat: 36.128 Lon: -5.454
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Hello, I am very impressed with your info. I'll try to request some more detailed pictures but I affraid that old device will not be properly funtional for Astro viewing. These binos are located in Spain, and the worst point is that I live 700kms far from the city in which is located so it is not easy to check it live. If I finally desist on purchasing I'll be glad to help anyone of you who was interested on it. Thanks.
-------------------- -GO 28x110 + S5000 tripod.
-Galileo zoom 20-90(lol)x65.
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Erik D
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 3742
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
... and I have no idea what Fujinon would charge to strip and re-coat them with current coatings .... assuming they can/will.
You may have a Fujinon service shop closer, that you would prefer to ask, or get a second opinion from.
Just a word of caution.
I recall reading a thread on the Yahoo Astro-Physics User Group around 2001/2002 about striping and re-coating: Someone had purchased a AP Scope 2nd hand. Discovered slight imperfection on the objective coating. He contacted AP to request stripping and re coating. Was advised by Roland C not to. (I think the explanation was the FMC bond/fuses<?> with the glass surface). This person went ahead and asked a 3rd party who agreed to perform the work. One element of the triplet objective broke in the process.
It's been 7 or 8 years since I followed the Yahoo AP forum. Those who keep up with the AP group may have better recollection of the details than I.
I rarely make decisions to purchase optics because they may be a collectible model. I do so based on the observing pleasure I expect to derive from them. If my binos happen to be a unique model or have collectibility that adds to the pleasure of ownership. If not, I can at least enjoy observing.
If the desire is to own a pair of fixed powered > 100mm objective binocular with straight EPs I wonder if pair of 28X110 waterproof bino with modern coating is a better choice. They are a fraction of the bulk, weight and cost of battleship binoculars.
http://www.garrettoptical.com/biggest-binocular-p/s110hd-wp.htm
Makes a pretty impressive display too.
ERik D
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 15353
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
Quote:
... and I have no idea what Fujinon would charge to strip and re-coat them with current coatings .... assuming they can/will.
You may have a Fujinon service shop closer, that you would prefer to ask, or get a second opinion from.
Just a word of caution.
I recall reading a thread on the Yahoo Astro-Physics User Group around 2001/2002 about striping and re-coating: Someone had purchased a AP Scope 2nd hand. Discover slight imperfection on the objective coating. He contacted AP to request stripping and re coating. Was advised by Roland C not to. (I think the explanation was the FMC bond/fuses<?> with the glass surface). This person went ahead and asked a 3rd party who agreed to perform the work. One element of the triplet objective broke in the process.
It's been 7 or 8 years since I followed the Yahoo AP forum. Those who keep up with the AP group may have better recollection of the details than I.
ERik D
You cannot strip and recoat anti-reflection coatings. The process "strip and recoat" is a carry-over from discussions of recoating mirrors. Mirror coatings and AR coatings are very much different.
You do not strip AR coatings, you grind them off and that changes the figure of the lens. That would then require the lens be refigured, repolished and then recoated. There is no guarantee the refiguring of the lens will return the lens to its original condition. In fact, it cannot.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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GaryHeath
super member
Reged: 08/13/09
Posts: 153
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So there you have it .... no need to contact Baker Marine (etc) after all!! 
This forum is not only one of the most active, luckily it also has some 'very' well informed contrubutors.
Thanks guys, and best regards,
Gary
-------------------- For equipment see: My Gallery
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Solar B
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/28/07
Posts: 1030
Loc: By Edinburgh , Scotland
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They do appear to be in a fantastic condition,one point i would make is,you will have to be sure that you really do want something this large,it is quite a commitment and one which you may not be able to decide upon until you actually see them,i think sometimes the thought of a Good deal or Bargain can often cloud (excuse the pun) our judgement.
Best of Luck
Brian
-------------------- " Gentlemen only ever use Refractors "
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edwincjones
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 5959
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Quote:
what are they really worth?
As Gary has implied, they are worth it to him- as a collectable? If your intent is observing, then you must add the cost of a mount and any possible repair. So, the total cost to you remains unclear.
edj
so your total cost would be the $1700 for binocs and mount, cost of tripod, cost of adapter-probably in local machine shop For the same amount, other options are..................? edj
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